Outed himself on social media, proving he is perhaps even dumber than we already thought.

I don't even understand why this practice is illegal; he was apparently injecting totally legal stuff so why is "greater than 100 mL in 12 hr" considered a problem by WADA??? If the drugs or fluids or carbs, etc, are completely legal, then why is the mode of uptake even an issue???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I hope someone has a legit answer for this because I simply assumed this is more for wrestlers and boxers trying to make weight and then hydrate quickly... which to me is cheating since that is part of the sport.

Additionally, because those are the rules.

And sport exists within an arbitrary set of rules defining what is allowed or not.

It's illegal because it could allow one to plasma volume, to dilute or mask a substance, and because it would allow to cheat the bio passport. Among other things.

still, when i saw this my brain immediately went to the post-kona med tent. all those IVs are now doping violations. not that this is any more the practice. maybe noakesian thought has prevailed.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

yes 1 normal sized IV bag is illegal and thus you would need to apply for post-dated TUE. 100ml is the tiny mini sized IV bag....which I think "standard" is 250ml.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think technically, it does not apply in the medical tent, because it's saline/glucose, and the med tent is considered as a 'hospital admission' under medical care.
Falls within table 3 here https://www.wada-ama.org/..._4.1_-_july_2016.pdf

There are exceptions to the banned method.

For example emergency care, cancer treatment etc.

You could argue or one “could” argue that some in that tent post Kona actually need an IV administered under the emergency care of a doctor.

Of course we know- or could reasonably guess this percentage is quite small.

Maurice

And to clarify, in the medical tent, the physician would still need to justify the need for an infusion and that it's the best course of action medically.

Is there anything updated from that...that document is from 2016, and things with WADA change yearly. I spoke with USADA officials 3 weeks ago, and they told me post race IV's need an TUE if more than the prescribed amount.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Ah, i see, this makes more sense now; i had not thought of the "masking" potential. Thanks!!!

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I don't think there is anything updated. I wouldn't be surprised if they just make a blanket statement to say it's not allowed. The rules are clearly written to be superseded a medical dx in a 'hospital' setting.
So, if you arrive to the medical tent delirious etc. your physician will make a call, which is really seen as a on the spot TUE. I guess USADA would rather make a blanket statement to avoid every other athlete faking it in the med tent.

when i first saw the change to the Code, and read the exceptions, i didn't see anything about post-ironman IVs that would qualify as a medical emergency exception. they can certainly do what they want at WADA. but i seem to remember, looking at this at the time, that the med tent would not qualify, otherwise that's a tacit admission that all these folks crossing the line are in medical emergency territory. it's further complicated by the latest best practices through the prism of hyponatremia.

but like i said, maybe they're not even doing industrial scale IVs anymore there. i don't know.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This is one of those cases where it's not right or good to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. Of course your average Joe doesn't know squat about professional doping regulations. Of course most of us would have been completely blindsided but such a seemingly strange rule. But this is part of the profession Lochte has chosen to follow. He's 33 years old. He needs to get with the program IMHO.

https://www.usada.org/...ns-explanatory-note/

There is definitely a bit of flexibility, but it will still require a TUE in the medical tent. But it has to be documented. And as you said, no more 'everyone gets an IV at the end of the race'. Which was always pretty ridiculous to begin with.

Yes, often there is more to it than at first meets the eye. Its one week before the national championships, and Ryan was injecting the B vitamins. It wasn't the end of a race.

Right, its not like IV's have not been at the center of some of the biggest doping controversies ever. Oh wait . . .

Even if the IV is just saline, it does make some sense just for optics alone to not allow the sidelines to be filed with guys and gals hooked up to hoses. That would not look too good even if an argument could be made it is not the worse thing in the world . . . . My hunch is the uptake rule is meant to make IVs impractical unless there is a damn good medical reason for them, even if a TUE is not required in every case of use.

The IV in question happened on May 24th, or at least that's when he posted the pic of him getting an IV on instagram.

Say for example, one or two of those out of 100 post Kona or any other event is severely dehydrated and legitimately needs that IV.

Would that not qualify as emergency care? Ie if I get into a car accident and need two pints of blood under emergency surgery...pretty sure I don’t need a TUE, also pretty sure I wouldn’t be blood doping.

Anyways, just a question I think the spirit or intent is not to bust people under legitimate (emergency) medical care regardless of location.

Maurice

The rules would allow an iV with a post justification for the TUE

There are also certain banned methods instituted via WADA for short time periods.

IE the olympics have a zero tolerance policy for the two weeks of the games. No needles, period.

Maurice

At IM Boulder, I had 3 of the giant bags for my issues that day. They did not immediately give me an IV despite blacking out on the course and being in extremely bad shape, but the doc did eventually order it, and specifically asked for the large bags (I did not know they had small bags or really anything about the bag sizes in general).

I am pretty sure the anti doping code allows medical professionals the room to do what they need to do for a patient's health.

---

---

"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

This is from the linked SwimSwam article. Sounds like there would be no issue from a post IM IV under a doctor's direction if you really need it for health reasons:

There's also the reason try to eliminate the technical advantage of wealth (and limit medical disasters). That's why everybody gets the same javelin in the javelin throw and UCI limits the bikes to have to be at least a certain weight - the real point of sport is to see athletes compete against each other fairly. Cyclist from poor countries already have it tough enough, so it's not cool to have them show up on 20 lb. bikes while rich cyclists show up on 10 pounders. We already see how unfair it is in Ironman how you can simply buy speed on the bike. And one of the reasons they eliminated those skin suits in swimming was rich countries could keep throwing full body kits at their folks after every heat even though they ripped, but the poor countries couldn't afford maybe even one.

The resources to hydrate yourself with needles and fluid bags frequently and safely takes $$$. So then the poorer athletes start trying to keep up and start making risky decisions by reusing needles and bags and sketchy medical folks (Dr. Nick from the Simpsons) or none at all, and then people start catching and spreading diseases, some of them irreversible, like HIV and hepatitis. So WADA says let's put an end to this and nobody gets them to keep the playing field even and people from spreading some nasty stuff.

Imagine athletes from a poorer country or just college kids at Nationals given free reign to have as many IV bags as they want. In a pinch, they'd start reusing needles and bags and even injecting each other, risking getting an air bubble in their blood stream and boom, dead. No needles, people... too dangerous. Limit it to nearly none at all and only under supervision by trained medical staff.

---

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

If you were sick enough to need an IV the small bags are a complete waste of time spitting into the wind as it were. If your health is legit at risk you and the doctor want the big bags.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

doper!

;-)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I can reiterate what others have said in this thread. I've never had a post race IV, but after I took a course about anti-doping from the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport I asked about them, and I was told a retroactive TUE would be required if more than 100mL was administered.

Very Funny! Isn't there a rule here about calling out someone without any sort of proof? :)

---

---

"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

did you instagram your doping? like lochte did?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So, dumb but serious question: no diabetics at the games?

---

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Yes,

The issue, and basically stems from a technical one:

For example take cpt chaos example re Boulder.

If he receives the exact same emergency care in the med tent at an Ironman vs the exact same care via “hospital admission”

In other words, same care in an emergency fashion, one requires a retro TUE the other not because you are receiving an IV via hospital admission.

Really a simple technical question, is a med tent with specific qualified people, and specifically available emergency interventions...and an admission protocol or process a “hospital”

Don’t know honestly, I think there could be arguments both ways.

Maurice

My understanding was that this would apply to anyone non-TUE.

Ie if you were diabetic and taking insulin etc, you better have a TUE. Just to make your life easier.

Having said that...I remember reading it multiple times during Rio and Sk winter games, and I can’t find the source now.

Perhaps I am incorrect.

Maurice

Ah, ok. "No needles without a TUE" is very different from "no needles, period".

---

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Agreed my initial description or recollection was incorrect.

Maurice

Funny how when USADA was being paid by Floyd Mayweather they gave him a TUE for an infusion and kept it secret. It didn't come out until after the fight. I really doubt Money was in such a bad way he needed an infusion.

Man, what a dope. I feel sorry for him in a pathetic kind of way. He narked... on himself

A standard IV bag is 1000ml. Ten times the limit. 100ml is 3 1/3 ounces. A pittance, really. And not enough to hide any doping. Therefore it is probably a fair limit. I think we don't have nearly enough information on this to be commenting in any way on whether Lochte is a hapless dope, a victim of a technicality or a genius at cheating. Shall we move on to more salient issues?

I could see your point if it were even remotely possible to be severely dehydrated after the 200 Fly or if swim meets were a single day/event. It is sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison because nobody in Kona will be racing the next day and you would prefer to treat people out of an abundance of caution. You have no idea what their electrolyte levels are either. Lochte was going beyond what's allowed and he doesn't have any good excuse.

“Salient issues”. Like what you did there.

1) I just wanted to point out, that there is a national shortage of IV bags. People who are hospitalized, who are quite ill, can not get them. Our ER has instituted strict rules around who gets them in order to ration them out to only the sickest people. The fact that anyone is able to get one for some BS recreational reason is irritating.

2) among the rules around rationing that we have instituted- in order to get an IV for hydration, you must be unable to consume fluids by mouth. I would hope that Ironman medical tents would follow these guidelines as well.

3) no way Lochte did not know this was illegal- I think it is legitimate to ask the question- what was he hiding by using IV saline?

If he really knew it was illegal he wouldn't have posted it on his social media. Rio proved that he is not exactly a brainiac. He probably just didn't think anything of it. Do you have any idea how popular vitamin drips and the like are nowadays? They are popping up all over...they promote them for curing hangovers, recovering from travel, etc.

Ya, i can def see how it would not look good for elite swimmers to all be getting an IV after every practice. OTOH, had RL just done this in private instead of Instagraming it, he could've gotten away with it and no bad "optics". Further, i would think a person's arms would get sore if they got an IV every day for several months, just from having all those needles stuck in you.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I’m not arguing if there is a shortage or not. But there are wellness centers popping up left and right where you can get IV therapy. While there may really be a shortage, to the unknown, they seem widely available with all the advertisements in the last few years for IV therapy centers. Remember when there was an ad for IV therapy at AG nationals a few years ago??

I think you are over-estimating the brains/smarts of Lochte.

---

blog

I’m not arguing if there is a shortage or not. But there are wellness centers popping up left and right where you can get IV therapy. While there may really be a shortage, to the unknown, they seem widely available with all the advertisements in the last few years for IV therapy centers. Remember when there was an ad for IV therapy at AG nationals a few years ago??

I think you are underestimating the brains/smarts of Lochte.[/quote]
Under estimating? Or over estimating?

Do tell. Is your comment based on firsthand knowledge, or hearsay/speculation?

---

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

 

---

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Next time I have a 5year old chemo patient who can’t get an IV, I will have you come in and explain to them how capitalism works. When critical medical supplies are in short supply, they should go to people who actually have a medical need for them.

Is that his wife getting an IV as well? Why?

A google search of iv fluid bag shortage gave me this:

https://www.snopes.com/...-an-iv-bag-shortage/

Here is the search link:
https://www.google.com/...=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Over-estimating. My apologies. Long day yesterday.

---

blog

Willenbring. Kendall. Cox. Now Lochte. Four people in five months. This is embarrassing. The cavalcade of stupidity on US National teams continues. Taking random pills the night before a drug test? Getting careless with an inhaler? Not knowing the infusion rules and posting a picture on social media? All inexcusable and easily avoidable mistakes. USA Swimming needs to quickly retrain their team members on the basics of anti-doping.

So, a husband and wife get vitamin IV drips? Semi-celebrity reality star athlete posts photo on Instagram with hashtags? I'd guess that the drips were for hangovers and that the Lochtes received a discount for promoting the facility online. Boneheaded!

Just in case those are curious about the IV shortage thing (since I was), here's a link with more details on it: http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/...tionwide-iv-shortage

---

-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

[/quote]

There are exceptions to the banned method.

For example emergency care, cancer treatment etc.

You could argue or one “could” argue that some in that tent post Kona actually need an IV administered under the emergency care of a doctor.

Of course we know- or could reasonably guess this percentage is quite small.

Maurice[/quote]

Not just at Maurice, as a couple people seemed a bit confused. In any NON hospital admitted situation a TUE is required and can be applied for after the fact aka "emergency TUE / post-dated TUE".

Here is some good reading material: https://www.usada.org/...ns-explanatory-note/

Specifically, first point for "during/after races", falling under "field of play" (IMO) and then 2nd point for what Lochte got banned for.

• In emergency circumstances, IVs may also be given by paramedical staff or physicians on the field of play, but an emergency TUE application is required as soon as reasonably possible after treatment has been received. Examples may include a semi- or unconscious athlete, an athlete who cannot tolerate oral fluids, or treatment of an acute injury.
• IV infusions during home visits, urgent care or after-hours clinics, boutique IV and rehydration services, and doctor’s office visits are not hospital admissions and would require an approved TUE in advance.

Anytime I see someone advocating people to get post race IV's, posting pictures of post race IV's, etc. I inform them of the rules and send them that above link. A good friend and ST'er completely ignored my guidance under the impression of "I had no idea they were giving me an IV and I needed it", doesn't matter you still need to get a TUE, even more so if you are going to post a picture of you getting it on social media, case and point Lochte.


Would I ever go to the lengths of reporting someone to USADA, probably not, unless they are a complete and utter fool and disregard all advice on the situation.


Just like a previous post here on ST about an AG'er thinking she could get a banned substance because her doctor said she needed it, and because he said she needed it she didn't need a TUE. I really believe it comes down to a complete lack of education by USADA / USAT on what is allowed and what is not allowed. Granted there are people pushing the limits and breaking the rules to compete at the very pointy end of the amateur ranks (case and point the recent Kona AG Champ doping bust), and then there are people that are MOP/BOP that just want to have a "better" lifestyle by getting "T".



I still believe USAT / WTC needs to create a non-competitive "Open / Do anything you want" wave/category, similar to the wetsuit wearing people at non-wetsuit races..........

---

-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

You nailed it B_Doughtie, USADA officials are correct ;)

Here is an updated note on it from USADA, 5 Jan 2018: https://www.usada.org/...ns-explanatory-note/

See my above post for more thoughts on it from my end.

---

-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

IV's are banned because they are the primary method of covering up autologous blood doping, and cheat biological passport testing. They could also be used to help one feel better after donating their own blood for autologous transfer - so they are banned for good reason. I would guess that IV saline might be a popular adjunct to most doping schedules, as they can wash out some positives, but I don't really know. Given the role of IV saline in many doping scandals, my knee jerk reaction was - how could this guy not know this was illegal?.... But, after hearing him speak, from the heart, completely extemporaneously-- I don't know... (its worth waiting through the ad).... he certainly does not come across as IV league material (couldn't resist). Unless this is all an act to make him sound too dumb to know any better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54SIn7Ptjw