I usually pay for the camping trips I go on with friends. Mostly they are pretty good and email me money the day I tell everyone what they owe. If someone hasn't paid me after a week I send an email to the entire group and shame the person.

Everyone in that group knows one guy who has been largely ostracized for being a massive mooch/douche. His name is Kevin. I email the entire group and point out that Kevin is back and his new name is {insert person who hasn't paid yet}.

Works every time.

As for Kevin, a lot of those guys put up with his act for way too long. I was never close friends with him so I can't comment on that too much.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Sounds like he’s taken you for $1000 or more so far. Not sure that’s really a friend. Or maybe he’s a friend who just doesn’t get to come along on this trip anymore.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

He goes thru the motions of a being a buddy, but at the end of the day, he's just not a good enough person to remain on the list of "close friends".

In college I loaned a buddy a $500. We were both dirt poor and this was a long time ago, so that was >2 month's rent. It took him a decade to pay me back in dribbles. I reminded him of it annually or so. He seemed to fool himself into thinking that it was "not a big deal". He was wrong about that. I loaned him that money when I was hard up myself. I wanted it back. His behavior was f**ked up. I would never do that to a buddy, so wtf kind of rule book was he working out of?

We're still buddies, I suppose, but we're not close. As much because he turned into a right-wing loon as anything else. Am certainly not going to front him money again. Me suffering thru his fb posts is favor enough.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

I've tried that. We have a group message. Every time I post, pointing out he still owes money, he responds with the Facebook thumbs up. It is a running "joke" that this guy never pays, but it is wearing on people. Problem is, a lot of people at this rally like him, but do not know this side of him.

The guy has no shame. If we cut him out of our cabin this year, there is a good chance he will still show up down in North Carolina and crash on the couch.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I used to have a good bud, we were both getting into light carpentry/remodeling. He lined up a 3-4week job in my area (he lived out of town), but it would only work if he had help and a place to crash. We agreed on an hourly labor rate and I kept track of my hours. He stayed at my place for free, and I did alot of the heavy lifting, as he'd often bail back home to visit his new gf for the day, etc.
He was to pay me at end of job. (Obvious where this is going..). On the last day of work, he woke at 5am, packed his shit, and left without telling me. I high-tailed it over to the jobsite and confronted him while he was loading up his tools. Never got paid, end of friendship. Lesson learned.

Suggest that he hit Nova up for the funds.
He can pay her back whenever he's ready.
She's super-cool about that stuff.

Yep. It is looking more and more like we need to cut him out of this trip. But, there is no question doing so will end the friendship. That may not be the worst thing in the world.

What I am angriest about is not losing the money. I am pissed that he put me in this position where I have to chase after him for the money. I cannot stand asking people for money, even if it is money they rightfully owe.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Fool me once shame on you
Fool me twice shame on me
Fool me three times WTF

Easier for me to say then you do but he's out next trip. Sounds like your other buddies will understand. Much like the Nova thread with someone borrowing money. Does this guy mooch out on things on the trip as well ? I'm guessing there's more mooching going on .

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

A friendship, I guess if you count marriage as a friendship its currently ending the marriage of a relative of mine. The husband is an incredible mooch and I can't stand it. His wife finally had enough because of how it effects the kids. I remember one time we went over to their house for an event and we brought a dish to eat that needed to be made there. My wife made the dish but had left-over stuff in bags and boxes (like half a bag of cashews) and he proceeds to take all of the stuff and start putting them in his fridge and cabinet. I said fuck that and took it all back and home. At one point we had season tickets for UW Football and we'd purposely not answer his calls the day of the game so he couldn't find our tailgate and mooch food and beer.

Ha! That's good!

I didn't see her thread until after I posted mine. Funny coincidence.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

He mooches the entire trip. We are usually out in groups as small as 4 or as large as a dozen or so. When we stop to eat, sometimes we take turns picking up the check. Sometimes we all throw money on the table. He will wait until the cheapest meal with the fewest people and make a grandiose gesture to grab the check. Then, you will not see his wallet again. Well, he does the old wallet feign where he reaches for it, but someone beat him to the check.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It appears it could put a strain on the friendship between the US and Canada. ;)

My family has Disney Vacation Club, and a guy I went to high school with used to come down with me and my friends. No big deal he just used a bed, but he was getting a free hotel pretty much every year. Invited him out to our wedding, he brought a friend as a plus one and got us like a 15 dollar gift.

Don’t really care about the money part but my wife and I agreed to punt him from and future trips down to Disney. At somepoint it’s just about respect and effort. He obviously didn’t care enough so no reason for us to.

Seems like my friend and your friend should go out together. They certainly know how to work the crowd.

I'm not lending her any more money and if I were you I would let him know right up front (This is of course easier for me to type than actually do.) that he isn't welcome without payment up front.

Sucks to be us. :)

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix

Know someone who became infamous to everyone else for what we dubbed his "check magic", typically used when there were multiple families dining together. Grab the check as soon as it hit the table, do the math, announce what everyone owed, take everyone's cash, go through the empty gesture of giving everyone a few bucks in change back, then suddenly "realize" he'd fucked up the math and ask for even more than he'd just given back. "Oh, and we need to add a tip too." It would get to the point where you'd leave a diner wondering how the fuck you just paid $80/family for breakfast for two adults and two kids.

After a few go-rounds of that we'd always make sure somebody else grabbed the check before him.

Be up front with him about it. Let him know that he hasn't paid for the last three years, let alone this year, and that if he doesn't pay, he can't go. If he has a problem with that and it ends the friendship, then you're probably better off without that kind of "friend". If he comes up with the money and tries the mooching thing while on the trip, make it a point to let him know that he should be paying his fair share. If money is so tight for him that he can't really afford the trip, he shouldn't be going. Not paying for one trip could have been due to circumstances beyond his control, but going again year after year and still not paying, that wouldn't cut it with me. I don't need friends like that.

Here's a thought. If you really like the guy and he's a good guy to be around except for the money piece, just consider it your gift to him. Tell him that this is what you want to do. Tell him the prior years' expenses are a gift as well. Tell him you will cover his share of the joint meals Be glad you are in a position to pay for him. If anyone else asks, tell them it is your gift to him and be glad of it. Put it all behind you and get on with enjoying your trip and your buddy.

Just a thought.

He's taking the piss

If he has a sob story and can't afford it he shouldn't be going

If he can afford it he should pay

One way round this is of course to arrange it your self but to simply get them to pay the accom directly

The easiest thing to do would be to simply not invite him until the arrears are paid

It's also not fair on either your self or the others but worst of all he is treating you like a mug

I hear it cost Trump $130,000 to end a Stromy friendship.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

That's how I thought of it the first year. If there was even a semblance of appreciation, I could, perhaps, continue to go that route. Therein lies the rub, there is none. I appreciate your comment. It is what I am struggling with.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I owe a friend a lot of money. We had a cash flow problem whilst selling a property

It's the single biggest stress in My life because whilst it was a huge help to me to tide us over - bridging effectively - I just want it off my plate

Your friend does not appear to give a fuck that you are carrying him

That's not the sort of person I'd want to be owing me money

My friend knows he's the first person to get paid when our house sells.

I'd also not want to lose my friend over money

I feel the need to share some Kevin stories.

Kevin also has no shame.

Kevin would go out with a large group. Order a coke then sit there with his coke and ask people if they are going to finish their dinner when it is obvious that they won't. He then drops $2 on the table for his $1.99 coke. No tax. No tip.

Kevin once pestered a friend into going to Pizza Hut with him. The friend didn't want to go. He was in university and was broke. Kevin wouldn't relent. Told him you pay for the drinks and salad and I'll get the pizza. Finally Dave caved and went. Kevin pulled out a coupon, buy two drinks and a salad and get a medium pizza free. Dave paid for drinks and salad, Kevin paid with a coupon.

Kevin tried this again for golf. Invited three guys out with him and at the counter pulls out a pay for 3 rounds and the 4th round is free coupon. However, the clubhouse guy took the coupon and applied a 25% discount to everyone. Kevin was steamed. At the end of the round he actually told everyone "Since I got you guys a discount on the golf I think its only fair if you take me out for dinner". They all made excuses as to why they were busy that night.

Superbowl party one year. The host recently lost his job but was willing to host. Everyone chipped in and brought stuff. Kevin loudly proclaimed he would bring a case of coke, he really made a big deal about this, it was quite something. He showed up, sat his case of coke down at the front door, went to the fridge and proceeded to drink coke that was in the fridge all night. At the end of the game he took his unopened case of coke home with him. People actually gave him shit for that one to which he replied "you don't know my circumstances so shut up".

Kevin worked at a hockey rink. He could get ice for free. He would invite a bunch of guys to play shinny and then charge them all $10. I went one time. Never again. Kevin would supply a case of coke for the guys though... so selfless...

Kevin ran a softball team. Every year he would try to get people to join a 50/50 draw to help pay for the teams fees. I have no proof of this but I am certain that he would pay for his season first and the rest of the team would get the leftovers. Dave (from pizza hut above) was asked in front of a bunch of us if he wanted to buy tickets for his softball 50/50 draw. Dave loudly told Kevin, "Kevin, you're an adult. You can pay for your own softball fees". We laughed hysterically. Kevin found it much less funny.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Go re-watch the Sopranos episode where Christopher repo's a car from a screenwriter who's borrowed money from him..
We own a small business. Following up with late payers used to really irk me. Ppl are assh*les if they think they can get away with it. You either have to push back, or cut ties. Many times I've wished I could go Full Soprano.

I feel like Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny, trying to collect on the $200 Lisa won playing pool ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Holy shit! Those are pretty bad. I'm not sure I can claim my buddy and Kevin are brothers, but, they certainly at least are cousins!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I'm going to guess that you and Brick ("gift it to him") are employed but not self-employed. If self-employed or own a business, you quickly learn to see through ppl's BS.
(Or as a friend once said, "What do you call a Democrat who owns a business?" A Republican.)
In our business, I often apply a courtesy or cut ppl a break. But when they impose a "discount" on us, by not paying? Oh hell's no.

Have you talked to him? I'd start there.

You seem to feel like he's taking advantage of you and your friendship. Tell him that.

Real friends are priceless. If they are having money or other issues, $400 bucks isn't that much to you for a real friend. Most of us would drop everything for a real friend in need. So I get taking care of your real friends.

If he got some money problems and can't afford it, then you could see it as an investment in your friendship if it isn't putting you out financially. But, you get to set the boundaries and limits to your generosity. And he's the asshole if he abuses that. You don't have to be friends with assholes.

A real friend wouldn't put you in the position he has. So is he a real friend or just a guy you hang out with?

For a guy you just hang out with, either he does his part for the trip- on time- or he doesn't go (or you guys talk about and he opens up to the issues that prevent him for paying).

At what point does this relationship become more of a headache than beneficial for you? I suspect you are there now, since you are asking for help. But figure that one too.

Either that or treat him like you do the left leaning folks who post here and he'll get the idea and go away.

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Suffer Well.

He can only crash on the couch if you all let him in. If the guy does show up, embarrass him with the facts and your feelings then tell him to stay elsewhere unless he pays.

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_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

Why stop being a friend? He simply can't easily pay for this event. It's expensive, so what's the big deal. You enabled the mooching for several years, just stop. It doesn't have to be personal on your end. His reaction is his own to make. I have covered costs for friends who are less well off. Many years ago, friends would cover small costs for me. OTOH, I've never covered sizable costs for multiple years. Just be straight with him.

I'm willing to bet that your so-called friend secretly, deep down, feels like this: Since you have so much more than him, you shouldn't care that he doesn't pay. You can afford it (and so much more), and you know that it's a stretch for him. An entitled attitude of wealth distribution.

I had a similar situation. He's no friend and either is your guy...

Hope it works-out for you one way or another.

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Lifeguard: "Do you need help?" Me: "No, that's just my butterfly."

Just remember that he is the one ending the friendship, not you. It may not change things, but you need to remind yourself that you didn't do this, he did.

I would have stopped inviting him after he didn't pay the first year.

At this point he's taking advantage of you and you're enabling him. I would have a come to Jesus talk with this guy and tell him he's being a lousy friend and he is not welcome unless he pays upfront like everyone else. Part of being an adult, and a friend, means paying your way. If he cannot or will not do that then he's being a lousy friend and does not respect you. Bring a tent and if he shows up tell him to sleep outside.

Ok old man. We've heard those before.

Is your son always complaining about you retelling stuff -- my kids do.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

I had a friend rent a house of mine for 3 months. I ended up with a piano and lots of two months of uncollected rent. I occasionally miss the friendship, it mostly makes me feel sad for him, though. You seem to be circling around the idea that I had to accept, yeah, there is no winning on this.

Is he married?
Is he not paying because the wife controls all of the money and doesn’t “let” him spend money?
Or- does she know he’s doing this? If my wife heard i owed someone money, she’d make sure it got paid immediately.

Or- let’s say this guy is hard up for cash. This trip is the one thing he looks forward to all year.
Are the other guys friends of his?
If we had a buddy that was tight with the group, but couldn’t swing the cost, we’d all chip in to cover. (And maybe not equally. Big shot buddy might pay more). This has happened for several Vegas trips. And for weddings when a friend was invited but couldn’t afford the flight.

And finally- if we all knew that one guy put everything on his credit card and the cost didn’t get fully covered, we’d all chip in to cover the difference.

This. He put you in this situation. If he's not letting the social awkwardness get to him, why should you let it get to you?

In fact, the more I think about it, you must cut him off in order to save the friendship. Cut him off, require a "lay our cards on the table" conversation, and then move on one way or another. But to just let this guy keep running you over can't work. You'll end up hating him, and the rest of your friends will lose respect for you.

Ha! I am one of the partners/owners of a specialty law firm. In the business world, I would have cut him loose a long time ago. I'm a softie in my personal life.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I believe that is exactly his mentality.

I should add a couple facts. We race at this car rally. Almost everyone there has after-market parts on their cars, including my friend. He works a lot and does not have a great deal of disposable income. He also has a fair amount of debt and financial obligations. But, he manages to have the blinged out wheels, cold air intake, and cat-back exhaust system, so he can run with the cool kids at this event. Again, this guy works a lot of hours and works hard for his money, of which he does not have a ton. But he always manages to have money for those items ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

My theory after having dealt with this problem a couple of times with a couple of different people: He's having money problems and doesn't want to tell you the truth. He's not an ass, he's embarrassed. He's in over his head and doesn't know how to broach the issue with you. He'd pay you back if he could but he can't. Why he's having money problems is a different issue and well beyond the scope of my crystal ball, but he feels like he has to keep up with you three but he's tapped.

Now, that said, the repeat trips tend to tip the scale back toward "ass" but I'd straight up ask him about it. If he's a Friend (capitalized F) rather than a friend or acquaintance, then a conversation might be the best help he's received in a while. A kick in the ass, if you will. All progress starts with something difficult and in this case it's a phone call from you inquiring into what the fuck is going on.

Edit: I just skimmed the rest of the thread. My opinion is unchanged but it is tempered, particularly by the part about his car. My suggestion is to disinvite him from the house but just be prepared for the douche move of showing up and crashing on your couch.

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War is god

Not married, but living with his girlfriend with whom he has a kid. They have been together for at least 10 years, so, they might as well be married.

He goes out of his way to conceal his income (and debt) from his significant other. She controls nothing.

I should have shared the facts I posted a short time ago. He works A LOT of hours and does not have a lot of money. He has a kid with his long-time live-in girlfriend and has another kid who just turned 18 (so, no more child support). The guy does not have a lot of money. Yet, he manages to have no issue with obtaining car parts. That is what rubs everyone the wrong way - he makes choices regarding the use of his disposable income and the choice is to spend it on himself while mooching off of friends.

The thing that set off one of my buddies back in August was that this guy posted pictures of his new wheels for the car he takes down to the rally on Facebook. My buddy called me and said, "has that sonofabitch paid you yet?" Nope ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Wow, I would have guessed you were all under age 26. Can't imagine someone over 30yo behaving this way. You are taking about a $400 roadtrip!

This guy is a serious mooch. And who ever heard of a lawyer NOT pursuing collections?? Haha

With friends like some of you, what is the point in working? I need money too!

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_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

My wife does. And my Dad has that problem.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I haven’t read every response so these ideas may have been put forth already but I have two ideas for you. I get into these situations with family (wife’s family specifically) and hate it. My marriage was very strained recently over such matters.

One idea is to ask the other buddies to each pay a little more and as a group cover costs for this one guy. Maybe he can’t pay. Whatever. Cover him across the group so it’s not all on you and just let it go.

Second idea is to require anyone going to pay upfront. You’ll book on your card but everyone has to pay their share by x date or they’re out and will be replaced by someone else.

Self-employed.

It is a struggle. Maybe this is his demon. I have mine. Maybe he is worth the expense or maybe not. Only you can tell. I don’t know the right answer. I expect you will come to know it, if only because you are struggling with it.

If you have spoken to him to let him know that there is no shame in his behavior regarding this trip and that you are truly happy to pay his way because you enjoy his company, and he expresses no appreciation, then you will have information (which you may already have) that will inform your behavior. After all, it is only your behavior
That you can truly control.

Good luck and Godspeed. You are a good friend.

An old saying from a guy I worked with...

Everyone is a friend until money starts changing hands.

He's being an ass, ditch him.

I cut people like this out of my life. Not worth the angst.

He is taking advantage of you. 1x - OK. 2x - not OK. Anything after that, that's on you.

Have you and your other buddies consider not telling him about the next trip and just cut him out of the email chain? Or perhaps go to a different event and not tell him?

This is the biggest rally of this type in North America. We even get a bunch of dirty Canadians drive down. So, there is no way around him knowing about it.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I think three times in a row says it all. Once is easy to forget, twice you can forgive, but three times in a row it seems like you're being played by as a sucker.

I would call him and ask what's up. Maybe there are personal or financial problems involved.

If everyone pays the same amount then put it in there hands. They can all pay more and allow him to come for free or he can be accountable to the whole group. It's not fair to you to pay for this clown and if he cares about you ( not being gay...not that anything's wrong with that) he wouldn't keep screwing you.

This situation reminds me a great deal of being in a fraternity in college. We all had that 2-3 dudes that were very likable and good people but when it came to paying dues, they never seemed to have it. They had money to go to bars and serve in their rooms, but not their responsibility. No one wanted to kick them out, so I posed the question...who will vouch for them? Who is willing to front the money they owe to keep them part of this group? In some cases, people did vouch, in others, people didn't. They had to go. It wasn't personal but at the same time it isn't fair that the other members paid on time and those dudes just seemed to show up during fun times. As a leader, I wasn't willing to be an enabler at the expense of all the other guys.

Your situation isn't all that different. As someone said, you can look at it as a gift to him and either you or the others split the costs because you know how he is. Or you stop being an enable and cut him out. That doesn't mean the friendship is over. It doesn't mean you can't hang out with him at the rally. It's all about setting boundaries. It seems everyone but him is in a agreement. So set them. That means no friend ride, no couch surfing, no dinners, etc. If you bend on it, then at least own it. No sense in setting your expectations and then coming back disappointed. You know what will happen

But deep down, I really suspect some homo-erotic jeggings story really plays out on this trip which is why you keep him around. Not there is anything wrong with that. The TN/NC area probably has its fair share of it.

Find another friend who wants to come, and then tell him there’s no space for him because all the spots are spoken and paid for.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

This is where it is headed and will likely be the result.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

If that's the case then you need a frank conversation with your friend about how you've covered for him the last 3 years and are pissed off when you see the bling on his car. Lay all the cards on the table. If indeed it is financial reasons that he can't pay you then say (and get agreement from the other buddies) 'you know what, for this year, Duffy, Slowman, Windy & I will cover your cost because you're hard up but next year if you want to go with us then start saving your money because we won't front it for you anymore after this year. That way you've set your expectations for next year, and for this year you won't have to take all the financial hit. Put the ball in his court.

Ok, the last paragraph made me laugh ... you're a dick, but, that is funny ...

Good analogy regarding the fraternity. We had those guys as well.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Your buddy sounds like my brother in-law. Shameless mooch. It drives me up the wall and I just flat out refuse to front him money, buy the next round, or whatever, as his turn just never seems to come round.

I would say your buddy isn't really a buddy. At the point you're at, he is completely taking advantage of you and you are rightfully pissed that he is putting you in the position of having to put your foot down. Feel no remorse in cutting him out. His behavior is childish and complete BS.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Fuck that!
Do you have any idea what JSA spends every year on cars, guns and tats?

At this rate, it will be JSA who will be doing the mooching :-)

Ive ended friendships* for a lot less than JSA has spent on this one guy (repeatedly)

* Could hardly call some people Ive had to put up with friends when they treat you like walking talking cash cow

Don’t forget Panera

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Nope. I have that covered.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

So essentially you are saying you'd rather get paid than his kids have a roof over their head and food to eat.

There is an old saying, "If you lend someone $20 and never see them again, it was probably worth it."

BTW, if you're paying I can probably make it that weekend.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

He's obviously decided since you're a successful attorney, you don't need HIS money.

Wait -- did a frat guy just accuse somebody else of latent homo-eroticism??

There's a fine line - a very fine line - between latent, and blatant.

Or just tell him the truth. If he pays up front he can go. If he doesn't, he can't. Only explain if he is dense enough to ask why.

Gems like this are why I frequent the LR.. cost of membership, justified!

The specific answer to your question is, no I've never let money ruin a friendship.
When I give money it's a gift, not a loan.

Here's how I think I'd handle the situation--



"Dude, the last three years you haven't paid your share of the trip. You short on money? Your wife mad that you go? What's up with not paying? Just level with me."

<Insert his reply here>

<your reply goes here, select from below>

1) "Sorry man, I had no idea. Let me get with the other guys and see if we can comp you the trip and waive the prior cost."

2) "Sorry man, that's not going to work going forward. We'll write off the past amount but you need to pay in advance this year."

3) "Sorry man, you seem to have money for your car but none for the trip. You owe $xxx from prior years and this years cost is $xxx We need that paid before the trip."

4) "Sorry man, it's not going to work for you to join us."

Friends money problems are not your problems. I have many different friends and some are wealthy and some are not. If you lend money, don’t plan on getting it back. Otherwise, don’t lend it. You are not a bank.

In this scenario, I would not have booked for that guy the second year if he didn’t pay for the first year. Be direct with him, just say that you owe for last year and your not booking the rooms until he pays for last year and this year. Or, book your room and not his.

JSA,
You are a very kind and giving person.
I'm sure you've pinned down the real reason he hasn't paid, hardship (alimony, child support, unemployed, drug habit, etc) or he just doesn't want to pay? I would respectfully uninvite him unless paid in advance.

There used to be a few guys in my cartel that would do the same thing, sob stories, promise to pay, etc.......in the end they disappeared.

Good luck!

Yeah, that is how I felt about it after year 2 until I saw he had ordered a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric track tires at $225 a piece ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I want to know why you have been stealing from all your other friends all these years? You have been bogarting all the Karma in this situation all to yourself, and not giving any to the other dudes. You looking to win a weeks vacation with the Dali Lama or something? Thinking you are going to the finish line cancer free? Banking your Karma bucks for a big withdrawal for that rainy day??

I've been where you are now, but in most cases they were really good friends and I wrote it off. A couple were girlfriends, and suppose that comes with the territory, you know, paying for it one way or the other. What I hate now is that I still think about it, and I'm sure it is causing tangles in my brain. I will be using my Karma when my memory starts to go, hope I have enough in the bank....

UPDATE:

I mentioned before that I set up PayPal and even sent invoices to everyone that can be paid online without any PayPal account. Everyone paid but this guy.

We have a group message. Last night, in the group message he posted: "I got the $300 but don't have a PayPal."

As I explained to him and everyone earlier - he does not need a PayPal account.

Then he sent text messages just to me. Here is how they went last night and into this morning:

Buddy: I got the $300 but don' thave a PayPal.
JSA: Great! Drop it off first thing in the morning. I'll let [wifey] know to expect it bright and early.
Buddy: How about you let me know when I can give it to u face to face

WTF? Previously, when I reminded him about the money, he said he wanted to talk about the trip. I told him if it was about payment for last year, I did not have anything more to discuss on that topic. It had been nearly a year and he still did not pay. There is nothing to discuss. He is either going to pay for last year or he isn't.

So, this ups my pissed off meter. He now wants to set conditions on paying the money he owes from a year ago???

I suspect he doesn't actually have the money. I suspect he is going to present me with a post-dated check and some Arby's coupons, which is why he won't just drop it off with wifey. I think he is frightened or her. She is 4' 11" of pure fury! She's upset because she sees how much this is weighing on me and also recognizes how import this trip is to me (it is usually the only time I can get away and truly be cut off from work b/c there is limited wifi and cell phone, so, I really am isolated).

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

If this guy is local why not show up at his place and collect the money? IOW call him on it.

I thought about doing that. The issue is - I really don't want to hear his bullshit or his latest sob story, which is what he wants to give me. In my professional life, I have no issue telling people to piss off. In my personal life, I am a complete wuss when it comes to confrontation with "friends."

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

any chance I can "borrow" some money over the next 10 years for my kids college?? I'll pay it back I swear. I just don't have paypal just so you know

my daughter is going to look at Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design today. MIAD appears to be a bargain at a mere $35k a year........

I'm no psychologist, but I did eat at Paneras last night, but it sounds to me like you are a loyal guy and you value your friendships thus you're doing everything in your power not to end this one. I can see how you're torn. Good luck.

If you don't even want to meet him face to face to hear his story, I'm not sure why you would want to go on a trip with him.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Sounds sketchy to me.

Question: Do YOU have to be the one to pay for the reservation each year?
How about one of the other 3 guys makes the reservation and see how they deal with the mooch, so it's not on you for a 3rd or 4th year?

That's gonna add up over time:
Year 1: Mooch $0, JSA $400 + Mooch's 400 = 800, other dude 1 $400, other dude 2 $400
Year 2: Mooch 0, JSA 400 + 400 = 800, other dude 1 $400, other dude 2 $400
now you're in for $1600 and your paying friends are in for $800. Mooch is zero

Year 3: JSA's cumulative total is up to $2400, Mooch Zero, friends 1 and 2 $1200

So--either you like this guy well enough to pay for his trip, or you don't. Or you're just as scared as he is of confrontation.
Good luck!

Yep. Unfortunately it has gotten to this point. Even if we were to work something out, things has gotten so strained the trip would be awkward and tension filled.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Wow. My high school sweetheart went to MIAD. That was 100 years ago, but I had no idea it was that pricey. Amazing school.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Borrow $1000 from the local loan shark. When Guido come around to collect, tell him your friend has his money. Or maybe ask the shark if you can rent Guido for a collection.

Yeah between that. St Norbert’s. And X I’m in wrong side of $400k. Hope it’s worth it.

Can I go instead? Don't have a rally car but I do like watching. And I cook. And pay.

I remember guys like this always broke but actually not. Mysteriously have to go to the bathroom when it's their turn to buy, forgot their wallet, credit cards were compromised and on and on. Also, if he's that broke, there's this weird groupthink that it's necessary to live within ones means. IOW don't feel guilty about punting him.

What the hell kind of update is that? There’s no concusion, just more mealymouthed excuses and you not paid. Sack up, tell him to pay or he’s out.

Nice country up there. I live in NC now (again) and love getting up there.

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******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

You sound like you need a Zima.

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

That would have irritated the heck out of me too. Because, as you said, he is putting conditions on paying you back. Simple drop off the money not good enough. Got to extract more from you. But also because he can't be bothered to type "you" instead of "u." That pisses me off when people "u" me.

Moral of the story: you've been U'd.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Not musch of an update.


Okay, he doesn't have money. Most likely: He is in massive debt, and he scrapes along barely able to cover his mounting bills, and he keeps his head just under water. Lots of folks are in that boat/submarine. They spend here and there on creature comforts. Know lots of folks who are so far down that they will never get out of debt. Eventually, they just give up on any plausible plan.

Have you paid for the trip yet?

Discuss offline with the rest of the group, maybe they all want to cancel and go somewhere else without letting him know?

Sorry may have missed a few posts but what does everyone else think?

Personally, I think your money’s gone and will be gone for this year.

I canned a very long friendship after 12 years. Was best man at his wedding (second time) pulled out 2k$ of my own money, had to take care of drunken in laws etc...

Non of that matters, with the exception that he didn’t say thanks, or show appreciation...that’s what did it for me.

Nothing dramatic etc, just done.

Maurice

What is the event and what weekend is it? I must admit that I don't really know what a "car rally" is. Cars go from A to B on some kind of precision time table, or maybe it just a big drive with no requirement for precision? Or maybe the cars are all parked and people just admire them. You're going hundreds of miles and renting a cabin with buddies. But what kinds of stuff do you actually "do" on these trips?

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Sounds to me like even if he did come up with the money, the tension and resentment would make it less enjoyable. If it were me, I think I would tell him that his refusal to pay for the last 3 trips has created resentment and you really don't think you would enjoy his company at this point and that he is not welcome and will not be staying with the people who do pay.

I have no use for people who mooch off of others and aren't responsible. I have been generous to people who actually try, but won't help someone who feels that you owe it to him.

Guido, shit!

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_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

Wait, this has gone on for three years, and this thread is four pages long?

This guy isn't a friend. If he was a friend one of two things would happen:
1. he'd be an ex-friend after doing this twice, there's no way I'd be able to respect myself or look that person in the face if he's boned me on money twice. I have a buddy who's been terrible with money over the years, I tend to be the one who books/collects for trips and events and he's always been a pain. But he's always paid up one way or the other. He's a lazy POS but he's a friend, so I put up with it. What I wouldn't put up with is total non-payment.
2. he'd admit, as a friend, he doesn't have the money and we'd figure something out. Strangers dick each other over, friends work on a resolution.

Call him out among the group, and say he's disinvited unless he delivers money. It can be water under the bridge if he pays up, friends forgive and forget. If not then fuck him.

Grow a pair of balls and tell him it's over.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Bitch beer!

On the bright side, we've probably identified the fool who bought MT the P3.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

UPDATE 2:

Decided to go over and confront him. He started in with the sob story, telling me he was trying to pay, but, just had a lot of expenses. Rent went up, health insurance was up, his kid needs to see an acne specialist, and the car payments on the car he bought last year. He wanted to meet face-to-face because that's what men do.

Then he said something to the effect of: "Look, I really admire what you have done and I know you have gotten where you are right now on your own, but not all of us are able to do that."

There it is.

So, I told him, look, this has been going on for far too long. I need you to take care of last year so we can put it behind us and move on. But, I'm not going to keep bankrolling you. If you do not have the money for the rally this year, you cannot go. I asked whether he had the money. He said he "borrowed it" so he could pay me back. He then went to his car and got the $300 and gave it to me. I said thanks. I reminded him the deadline for paying the first half down for this year was March 9. We shook hands and I left.

He texted me a few minutes after I left and said, "I do have your walkie and iPass and fire extinguisher I need to give back to you."

There is very little cell reception where we race, so we use walkie talkies. The fact he said he needs to give it back to me seems to indicate he has resigned to not going this year.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Done. Got the $300. See the update above.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I figured it out -- JSA is the mooch. He's thinking of dicking his friend over for the 4th straight year, and is using this thread as a sounding board / positive reinforcement for his planned scumbaggery.
Don't do it, man!!

Ha! I feel guilty when someone else picks up the check. Cannot imagine being comfortable doing what this guy has done for years.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Felt he didn't need to pay 'cause you don't really need the money. Typical!
You could have at least bought him a Zima to bury the hatchet...

Ever since windywave was banned, I have lost my Zima supplier.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

With that update, it was looking like this thread was over.

Then the writers showed that there was plenty of plot development left for season two:

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Then he said something to the effect of: "Look, I really admire what you have done and I know you have gotten where you are right now on your own, but not all of us are able to do that."

Yep, I'm pretty sure I "know" this guy. I think his twin brother must live in southern Indiana.

He texted me a few minutes after I left and said, "I do have your walkie and iPass and fire extinguisher I need to give back to you."

This was just his attempt at a "Hail Mary" pass. He planned on texting you from the beginning in the hope that maybe he softened you up a little with the sob story of the $300 repayment that he had to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. Maybe you'd turn around and say, "Hey, man, I guess I could cover you this one last time if you promise to not make me chase you down for the money." I hope I don't sound too harsh, but like I said, I "know" this (type of) guy.

Glad you got some of your money back. It sucks that you were forced into the situation.

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Lifeguard: "Do you need help?" Me: "No, that's just my butterfly."

I guess that's about the best outcome you could have expected. Classic that he borrowed the $300 from someone else. At least it's now someone else's problem.

I've lent friends money twice. Five figures worth. In those cases I drew up a contract and they paid interest. Happily they both repaid me on time. The only time someone asked me for a couple hundred bucks to pay rent I gave it to them and, as I'd expected, never saw it again.

Hopefully with this outcome you can preserve the friendship and he knows going forward you're not going to keep fronting him the money. People like that tend to just keep pushing the boundaries until they find the limit. Now he knows yours.

Nope, he wants to give your shit back. Face it, the romance is over. He's breaking up with you.

There's no more free ride. Resentment has set in because you confronted him and now he doesn't like you any more. Time for him to find a "true friend" who will give selflessly. That's what "friends" are for right?

(sucker)

I’m sorry that he has put you in this situation. It’s clearly eating you up. Sounds like nownhes trying to put a bit of guilt on you too.

You have been more than generous and gone above and beyond for him.

Yes, you’d like him there and yes he’s paid you for last year, but we’re talking $300 here not $30k.

I think you gotta just let it go and phase him out of your life.

He borrowed $300.00 to pay you the $300.00 he owes you... the guy needs an intervention.

Page 4? Page 4? You guys keep threads per page at default? Noobs.

#111 here is top of page 3! 50 per page makes long threads much more readable.

He just "announced" on a Facebook message to a large group of people going that he was unable to make it this year. Starting to try to elicit sympathy.

Here is the latest exchange -


Buddy: Not gonna be able to make it this year.
Jerry: Why not? What happened?
Buddy: Life. Life happened.
Ed: Think positive and things may change last minute. Someone will make room for u 4 sure if you can make it.
Buddy: You never know what's gonna happen.


Yeah ... Ed, you go ahead and make room for him. You can carry him in your cabin from now on ...

This is what I was alluding to earlier in the thread. People like having him around. None of these guys know about his mooching. They joke about him being last to grab his wallet, but they don't know he hasn't paid in 3 years. Only the two other guys who stay in our cabin know the history.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Perhaps its time to quietly spread that knowledge around.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yeah, I've been on 50 per page from very early on.

Dummies gunna dumb.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Agreed on shifting the burden to someone else. You’ve paid this guys dues for far too long.

His lack of shame amazes me.

Yeah, assuming you like these other guys, if it looks like one of them is leaning toward letting him in, I'd quietly contact them to let them know about the mooching, so at least they can make a fully informed decision.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

So you have no issues hanging your friends out to dry?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I'm feeling kind of superior since I use 100.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I can't wait until we get to the part of the story when his not attending all becomes your fault. You know it's coming.

You selfish bastard.

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Yep. One guy already contacted me to ask what was going on. I told him the truth. He said, “Wow. Don’t blame you.” So, at least one guy knows.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Way to stomp all over the guy, "Life". You're worse than Hitler.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Next comes the link for the Go Fund Me campaign.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

What was it $300 ? That's like a cigar and one shot of Pappy. Now Buddy can't hang out with the gang. Because you can't take one for the team. Way to let everyone down. Way to let Buddy down.

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

$300 is worth 4 quarters' worth of board meetings dude.

Well, actual price for three years was $350/year = $1050. I only asked for $300 for last year (rather than $350), which he finally paid. Then there is $450 for this year (discounted from $500, which is the actual price per person). So, if we add it up, including this year, he "owed" me $1550. I asked for $300 for last year and $450 for this year. I got $300 and he opted out for this year.

Do you have any idea how many tattoos I could get for $1550??? (I won't even begin to think how much Panera that amounts to).

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Got a mate like that. Always last to the bar, always needing reminding its his round etc. We are just super vigilant and ensure he pays his way, better for him, better for us. No bitterness. Most people buy him light beer when it's their turn, in Australia light beer is low alcohol beer, so 2%. He still hasn't cottoned on 3 years down the track.

Huh. 41,567 posts and I have been doing it wrong the entire time. Go figure ...

Amateur.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

This & Nova's thread has been an eye opener & I wont be loaning money to friends anytime soon. Fortunately I've never been burnt & have eventually got my $'s back.

Sold a bike to a mate for $2,000. He said he had some back taxes owing & would pay me in a month or 2 when it came through. Saw $500 early on, but took 2 years, a lot of nagging & the threat of legal intervention to fiiiiinally get all my coin. The thing that shits me, is the way you're made to feel like the bad guy for asking for your money.

Loaned another mate a few grand on 2 different occasions, when his business was having cash flow problems. 1st time we were good mates, so had no issues handing it over & got the money back promptly. The 2nd time he hit me up had me a little nervous, as we had started drifting apart & thought it a little strange considering. Anyways, I handed over the moolah & again got my Benjamin's back pronto. That was pretty much the last I heard from him, so consider myself pretty lucky on the last one.

one of the many, MANY problems with social media is this type of thing, where ''friends'' all take something at face value.

Hadn't thought of that... he'll post to Facebook 1 week prior: "My sched opened up!. Anybody got room for me to crash?"
Somebody will post back "great news!" and take him in.
This guy is a genius -- he's cheap, but cheap like a fox.

30 yrs of this:

College: when he entered a bar he would grab a used glass and make his rounds-walk up with an empty glass, everyone has pitchers, here, let me fill you up, all night long.

When we entered as a group and it was his turn he was always missing, so we eventually got smart and made him buy the first pitcher, this way he was on the hook for the $2 deposit-no way he was losing out on that.

Countless stories like this in school-okay, we get it, broke college student, like the rest of us, but even after school it continues.

We visit him a few years out to mountain bike-he decides he is going to have a big BBQ for his locals and his buddies who are out...interesting, we go with him shopping, toss beer in the cart, he objects, he won't drink that crap-get this....beer/food, at the register, cashier says $100...he stands there and walks away, we are shocked and pay the bill....yes he had a BBQ for all his friends and we paid for it...
5 years later:

I'm selling a motorcycle, he is kinda living check to check because he and his wife spend 1.3X of income (200k income) asks if he can buy it "on payments"-not a problem (I am an idiot) we work that out, but it needs to be shipped cross country-I draw the line when he asks me to pay for shipping and include it in the price...10yrs later, have never received a penny, and according to him he "technically" owes me for the bike, this comes up every other year-last time I reminded him that no, not "technically", he does...has no money to pay me...now over 300k income, has plenty of money for some great vacations, ones I would have loved to taken and used that bike money for...

Guessing his view is we made more money so we should pay, and I make more than him so its not a big deal...I am actually surprised he hasn't sold it and just kept the money, so there may be some honor there...

Another buddy keeps reminding me of what Oprah says, "the only people that get taken advantage of are those who permit it"

so that's my story of this mooch...have another one about a guy I play hockey with who took me for 1,700....which is nothing because he owes other guys in the skate over 10k, I wish they had spoken up about it because had I known I never would have lent him the 1,700-"just until the end of the month" 18 months ago...

BBQ's seem to be a money maker for mooches. I knew one years ago that hung with some of the guys I worked with at a local tavern. Would always show up around 2:00 AM on fri or Saturday because he could hang out with the owner and not pay for drinks since the registers were closed. If he did show up a little earlier would run a tab and never pay. Came from a wealthy family and from what I understand and it seemed that way he was fairly well off himself. He somewhat famously kept his heat set at 60 in the winter. "Because sweaters and jackets were made to keep you warm."

This clown would have a BBQ's at his house. Call all his guests day of and ask for you to bring this and someone else to bring that. He provided nothing. Then before cooking would split everything and put half away for himself. One buddy told me he got a call that the mooch need ground beef for burgers and didn't have time to get to the store. " I drop off all this meat and rolls thinking I am going to have this wonderful burger. He basically made sliders for everyone and froze the rest. "

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

We need to do a deep dive on this one.

So he just walked away and nobody questioned it? What about later?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I find this stuff shocking. How does someone like this have any friends?

It is an odd dynamic. The subject of my OP is not the only mooch I have ever known. Other guys have been phased out of my life. But, you get these guys that are able to do this and not get ostracized. I cannot explain it.

You can see how it could happen with my buddy - not everyone knows the whole story. There are only 2 other guys who know, specifically, why he will not be going on the trip this year. Everyone else will bemoan his absence and talk about how much it sucks he could not make it.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I honestly don't know. We had a number of mutual friends and I would ask them from time to time why they were buddies with the guy. They thought it was funny how cheap he was and rolled with it.

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

I have a group of co-workers that would sometime go out to lunch together. In one instance, 4 of us went out and all ordered the same thing (burger, fries & coke) with the exception of 'Lisa', who only had burger & fries. When the bill came out I suggested we split it 4 ways. 'Lisa' objected and said she should pay $1.50 less since she didn't have a coke. 'Lisa' hasn't been invited back to group lunches.

I get the cheap factor here but some people can get carried away with "let just split it evenly". My wife had a couple of friends who she would go out with. They would both order 2-3 glasses of wine with dinner and insist on appetizers. My wife would usually order water to drink. Their orders were routinely about $30 more than my wifes. And they would say "oh lets just split it". Not wanting to look cheap the wife would pony up.

Now my wife just asks for a separate bill right at the beginning.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Agreed. There is a fine line.

We have a couple with whom we regularly go out. This couple is the opposite of all the moochers in this thread. You have to be quick or this guy will grab the check every single time. I even resorted to secretly telling the server to sneak the check to me or I give the server my credit card before the bill arrives.

Anyway, we also split the check on occasion. When I know I am grabbing the check, I will order apps and a bottle of wine for the table. When I believe we are going to split it, I make sure we are lining up fairly evenly. Usually, we are in sync with this couple. We tend to gravitate towards the same apps and drinks, so, it usually isn't an issue.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I have yet to come across a waiter or a waitress who balks at the idea of separate bills. Tired of dealing with so many stupid people, we almost always ask for separate bills right up front.

You pay yours, I'll pay mine. Everyone should leave happy.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Friends of mine who do pretty well, would regularly go out together.

They would 'jingle' for the check. Everyone would put a credit card into a napkin, and the server would pull one.

That is an awesome idea!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

A couple of years ago I was on my annual group cycling trip. We typically go to a brewery for lunch after the long ride of the day, around 25 of us.

My buddy & I wanted to get lunch at another place, so we went straight from the ride, grabbed lunch, then met up with everyone else. They were already seated, ordered, drinking beer outside on the patio, so we each grabbed a beer at the counter and paid & tipped right there, did the same for our second round and were done. The waitress comes out with the check for the group, we find out that one guy, we'll say James, decided to grab the check to make it easier, pay it, and split it evenly amongst everyone. My friend & I didn't have a thing on that check, so we informed James of that and politely declined paying anything. Others had only ordered a beer or two, not full lunches with beer, appetizers, etc. and declined paying 50% more than their order was for, especially since they hadn't asked for the check to be on one and evenly split. James was pissed -- frustrated with my buddy and I for not contributing to what we hadn't ordered anyway, pissed at those who wouldn't pay more than their share, pissed at those who got off with less than they really owed and paid what he told them their split was. I think James left early on that trip and don't think he's been back. Nice guy, but I don't budget for the trip with the expenses of others in mind and wasn't going to be coerced into it.

Nope. Nobody leaves a meal happy ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

For this scenario I have my CC in menu and ask the waiter about something on there. Holding the menu so he can see the card. I then give him the menu with card. The other guests never see it coming. They can only beat you to the bill by giving CC to the waiter when you arrive.

Some of the groups of friends we have all like to pay the bill. So it's a game / fight to pay.

I also enjoy the Russian roulette of throw the CC's in a hat and let the server pick who pays.

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

What if someone in the group orders desert to go?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Was par for the course, we had seen it before and laughed it off as typical behavior...they cut him off after that weekend, me, I am an idiot...

My father in law's Aussie family will fight each other over the check. One of his brothers was over for a visit a few years ago and we were all out to breakfast, 9 of us with the kids. The check comes, us "kids" know not to even try to pay because we've been through it before (won't let us pay, even though we have good jobs, homes of our own, kids of our own...I was physically shoved and knocked to the side when I tried to pay once at the zoo). Father in law whips his card out, so does uncle. Father in law does the card over the head, wave it like a flag trick; uncle snatches the card out of his hand, hands the waitress his card. She walks off, father in law starts berating uncle to give his card back and let him pay,; uncle passive aggressively refuses until the check is back, father in law threatens him "Give me that card and let me pay now, otherwise I'm going to put your ass in the corner", counts down from 5 to 1, grabs uncle by the neck, nearly knocks him over. The table next to us looks horrified as my sweet sister in law looks at them and innocently says, "It's OK. They're brothers. They're always this way."

We never returned back to that restaurant, at least not until it converted into another place with new owners and employees. My father in law, the pain in my ass that he can be basically 99% of the time, is no joke.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum. Last week I went out with a few co-workers for happy hour. When the bill came and someone suggested we split if four ways I offered to pay more because I had two drinks and some people only had one.

That reminds me another story. My wife and I had went out to dinner with another couple for the first time. The other couple was drinking $25 glasses of wine while my wife and I had the house red. I was kind of ticked off when they suggested splitting the bill but I didn't say anything.

Bunch of friends went to Charleston for a Friday to Sunday golf trip, fly in Friday about noon, play 18, hit hotel, play 36 on Sat and another 18 on Sunday morning before flying out. 4 different courses. Great friend from high school all through the round Friday afternoon said how we were just going to split dinner evenly and he was ordering lobster and steak and making us pay for it. Would then bust out laughing. Dinner rolls around and sure enough he starts ordering top shelf gin and tonics, apps, and surf-n-turf. There were 8 of us so maybe we each paid $15 more than we should have otherwise. Kicker is, he gets so stinking drunk, he doesn't leave his hotel room rest of weekend and barely makes it to airport. Misses out on 3 rounds of golf he had already paid for and the rest of the fun of the weekend. It was worth $15 just to give him shit the last 15 years....

I think that was also the weekend I ended up in some X bar with a pregnant chick....

I shame them on the spot !

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Had a friend like that. Gave him a place to stay for 2 weeks at a time to just train in an unreal coveted place for free & he did the same at his races with other friends as well. Often, he would have a well to do girlfiend and other people strategically in places he liked to train who were "connectors" (a network he compiled) that would hook him up. We'd go on a long training day and go out to eat or say "Where are we going to eat tonight?" He wouldn't have any input because he would say he had no money and was going to eat supplements. We would feel bad for him and either a) not go out and cook something at home at our expense b) if away at a race for example, we would all feel bad and someone would buy his dinner. It was a mooch way of life & he still is doing it. Myself & another friend cut him off & pretty much ended the relationships. We had our own future to look out for, being part of the network to provide for his just didn't sit well with us. Friends help friends but it isn't meant to be a constant "taking advantage of others" situation. Needless to say, while I remain cordial whenever we cross paths, I'm well aware of the poor athlete bit & guard against the tricks I've seen in the past & avoid social outings with the individual best I can.

I'd like to think that most people are like you in this regards but I've been proven wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Your friend should set up a GoFundMe account so people can sponsor his racing. Maybe even post it in the main forum so people there can help.


I'm sure the main forum would love to offer advice.

That wasn't the first, or the last, time he drank himself into oblivion the first night on a trip.

This /\/\/\. I do business with friends--we own properties, go into investments, etc together. Even lend or borrow depending on who participates in what. But there is always a contract. There is always collateral. There is always above-market interest involved. And doing it that way has never made $$ between friends an issue. I've found (and I work in high-risk lending) that the bigger risks are the little ones: the friend or business partner who needs $100-500k is usually a much lower risk than the guy who needs $5k on a handshake. But it depends on where someone is at a certain point in their life.

JSA I thought you handled that perfectly. If he is that good of a guy (meaning great to be around), then actually approaching the rest of the group with the past & asking them if they all want to sponsor him along isn't a bad investment, from a have-fun POV. There might even be the opportunity for some life/financial advice with open dialogue: not everyone has the smart-money gene.

I've got a friend who is B rich. When he invites us to go heli skiing or to a fishing lodge in Canada the invite isn't with a "it will cost xyz per person". He just has FU money & wants to hang. It doesn't get in the way at all. Though we do end up being a bit of his bitch for the week, as he certainly doesn't do the dishes or anything like that....but I'm pretty sure he doesn't do the dishes anywhere else, ever......

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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

...have another one about a guy I play hockey with who took me for 1,700....which is nothing because he owes other guys in the skate over 10k, I wish they had spoken up about it because had I known I never would have lent him the 1,700-"just until the end of the month" 18 months ago...[/quote]
UPDATE:
Skated last night, Mr $1700 who has been avoiding me for 18 months skates over and says, "hey, I have your money in the locker-room"...I almost fell over, and sure enough after the skate, a shower, and a beer I walk to the room he is in and he hands me $1750 in cash...I say thanks, stick it in my pocket and walk out quickly-as I know he still owes the other guys significantly more than he just paid me back...

UPDATE:
Skated last night, Mr $1700 who has been avoiding me for 18 months skates over and says, "hey, I have your money in the locker-room"...I almost fell over, and sure enough after the skate, a shower, and a beer I walk to the room he is in and he hands me $1750 in cash...I say thanks, stick it in my pocket and walk out quickly-as I know he still owes the other guys significantly more than he just paid me back...[/quote]
That's cool. If he remembered the money he owes you, maybe he'll remember the other guys too. Either way, I'm sure it was a sweet surprise to get the money.

 

That reminds me another story. My wife and I had went out to dinner with another couple for the first time. The other couple was drinking $25 glasses of wine while my wife and I had the house red. I was kind of ticked off when they suggested splitting the bill but I didn't say anything.[/quote]
My brother cut ties with a college friend who pulls something like this every year. "Ken" has become CFO of a Jacksonville company, drives a Maserati, hangs with Tim Tebow at charity events, etc. And likes to gather with his 3 college buddies for a NFL game destination weekend once a season (my brother and 2 others).

Last year, they hit Charlotte, and Ken suggested what might be the spendiest restaurant there. Ken orders surf and turf ($70), and $50 bottles of wine. The other 3 guys just order chicken Caesar salads, burgers, etc.

Final bill is well up in triple-digit territory and Ken quickly tells the waitress "we'll just split it evenly"

After multiple years of this kind of stuff, they're over it.

A little late to the party, but did he find someone to mooch off of for future Rallys?

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

I can't imagine not paying. I think that's dishonorable. I have a group of friends and we have an annual fishing trip. I think I'm going to skip this year as I don't feel comfortable spending the money right now (finished grad school/internship and looking for a job).

He showed up last year. He got a single room in the lodge, so, he was on his own. We saw him a couple times, but he spent most of the time running with another group. We said hello and had some brief conversations, but he mostly kept his distance.

It’s coming up again in April. On social media, he indicated he will be there again staying in the lodge.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR