No way Lauren took it knowingly. It's retroactive for just 6 months and she just announced she's pregnant so it won't affect her future racing. If the supplement was contaminated and she had no clue, should she still even have the 6 month retroactive suspension? Are athletes expected to test every single supplement they take? The manufacturer of the supplement screwed up, not the athlete.

Shouldnt they out the salt product that was definitely the source? I'd personally really like to know. Does that company have to explain how it was tainted? Was it a one time error or ongoing?

I find it pretty crazy that they could even definitely identify the source and as such should take full advantage for the consumer. I'm guessing the number of salt products used in the sport is relatively small - meaning I bet other AG and Pro are using that same product. Wouldn't it benefit everyone to know they better be cautious using that stuff. Same as when they warned against meat in Mexico...

I don't know what is wrong with professional athletes. The very amateur racers on my very amateur team either take pre-tested supplements only or don't take supplements. It's not that hard.

At first I thought, "bummer, possible contaminated supplement". Then I looked up what it was and holy crap, why would that be in a salt stick! I hate to be a Troll, but that sounds too fishy.

WTF does a salt tablet have ostarine in it? A quick google indicates this is some sort of cutting edge PED. It can't be cheap. Its unbelievable to me that it would get in a product by accident.

Did you read anything beyond the headline? They were able to test Lauren's salt tablets a day they were contaminated. Neither woman noted in the charges would knowingly put that in their body.

I read every word of the article, and did some (quick) extra research. I read that salt tablets were found to have ostarine in them. What I want to know is is this credible? If so, what the hell is ostarine doing in the tablets? Are these unnamed 'salt tablets' some sort of super dodgy 'salt tablets' containing 'supplements' or 'herbs' that no sensible pro athlete should have taken? Or if they're mainstream salt tablets why the hell do they have ostarine in them? Somewhere something doesn't add up. I'm making no accusation against either of the athletes I'm just saying something somewhere here doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps the answer to one of my questions here will make it clear what has happened...

Mainstream salt tabs and given human nature and the fact there have been enough who have looked for an edge, being skeptical is natural but how does an athlete get to prove their innocence?

Ding ding

see cGMP compliant, versus non-compliant, labs. you package heavy-weight-gainer-leaner-outer, and then you turn off the machine and turn it on again churning out salt tabs, some of what was left in the machine gets into the salt tabs. it matters where these tabs were made and bottled.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

In your article, you (edit: oops, not you, the author) indicated that after 2010, all supplements must be manufactured in cGMP compliant labs. Did that law never go into effect? Are people flouting the law? Is that certification not enough?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Wow. So even reputable brand products can really have PEDs in them? And the excuse 'it was in my salt tab/supplements' could be true? Not good.

Searching for Ostarine on the FDA website found a warning letter from them regarding a few very sketchy supplements. It seems Ostarine is an experimental drug that would not be allowed to be in any kind of supplement. So its not just the weight gainer went through the machine before the electrolytes... http://www.fda.gov/...s/2014/ucm434928.htm

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

A Ban for a pretty obvious accidental dosage seems rediculous. Especially for a sport where the majority of pros don't really make much money. I can't see how this sport continues to survive when you test an unopened over the counter supplement that the athlete takes, find the issue, and still suspend?

That's the big rub I have with it. If it had just been someone's word, it is harder to believe for those who don't know the athlete. But to have it proven out and still impose the ban leaves a black mark, potential loss in sponsorship money, vacating of wins, the purse and that doesn't even count the loss in time and inability to compete in Worlds. And now we've lost another athlete to this who says she won't be back...disappointing...

Neither woman noted in the charges would knowingly put that in their body.


Doesn't everyone say the exact same thing?

It's a fairly common, readily available over the counter drug used to treat, among other things, osteoporosis. Apparently it's common enough that it is being produced in large enough quantities that the chances of it contaminating another supplement in the same facility is reasonably good. It's not like you need to go to a shady back alley with a bag full of cash to find it.

As for the facilities themselves being tested, apparently in some cases there aren't any unannounced tests done. If you know someone is coming then you'll probably make sure you pass, who knows what happens in between though.

I'm inclined to believe that none of the girls (Lisa included) knowingly took it. As far as I know it clears the body fairly quickly and won't do much to help you during a race. With that in mind it doesn't make much sense to take it before a race when it won't do much for you and there is a chance you'll be tested.

Is salt a supplement ? Read Beth's blog , feel sorry for her

Can you provide a link to something that justifies the above statement? My googling hasn't found that at all. First of all, wikipedia says it has a brand name of Enobosarm, and describes it as an investigational drug:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enobosarm

According to this, Enobosarm hasn't achieved regulatory approval:

http://www.nature.com/...ox/nbt.3557_BX2.html

Dan, do you know what the difference in manufacturing is that makes something like a salt tablet risky, but "normal food" non-risky? For example, bread has vitamin C added to it during manufacturing, so why is consuming a vitamin C tablet a risk for athletes, but eating bread isn't a risk? Are there different legal requirements for any stage of the production process for the two products?

Its a SARM:


Selective androgen receptor modulators may be used by athletes to assist in training and increase physical stamina and fitness, potentially producing effects similar to anabolic steroids.


You have to apply the rules evenly across the board. Doesn't matter if its a darling of the sport, crowd favorite, friend of a friend who's super nice, etc. If you allow the contaminated supplement excuse to pass (even if its true) then you have to do that for everyone, and that opens the door for an awful lot of 'contaminated' supplements...
There have been plenty of athletes banned for things like DHEA being found in their supplements. Can't be any different for these two athletes.

Yes.
Not saying that is easy or necessarily right, but athletes are responsible for -everything- they put in their bodies.

If I were an athlete in this circumstance, and I without a doubt was able to prove it was a contaminated supplement, I'd sure consider suing the manufacturer!

Yes. We must punish the innocent so it does not open a door for the guilty. Nice.

Cases like this show what a sham anti-doping is. Even when a national ADA acknowledges that an athlete is innocent, they are punished. It is not about stopping athletes from doping. It is PR exercise to swindle the public into thinking something is being done. All that is important is a press release. Hence you get dogshit "doping" products like DHEA on the banned list even though it is useless as an ergogenic; but it is commonly available and is a regular contaminant so we'll be able to announce a lot of doping infractions. Perfect.

Your 2 statements don't make sense though.

So athlete should be punished for taking tainted substance AND should sue product because it had a bad substance?

IF the process finds the athlete did best of their ability to check tablets and only popped because of contaminated substance, the process should clear athlete. If it can be proven, thus why your statement "they should know" and "they should sue" seems to be acknowledging it's a fucked up circumstance.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Have WTC stated that?

From Beth Gerdes

the WTC (World Triathlon Corporation) has agreed that based on the evidence presented, my ingestion of ostarine was unintentional

From the WTC

Quote

Ms.Gerdes was not able to establish how the ostarine entered her body and, therefore, IRONMAN proceeded in accordance with the Rules and had no basis to reduce the period of ineligibility.”

I think my two statements make sense because I didn't say she did it on purpose.

I'm not saying these women took the substance on purpose, but where do you draw the line on what is an acceptable excuse? So if I get popped for Winstrol, as long as i crush some up and put it in my salt tabs, im good?
What if the amounts in their system were small only because they stopped the larger doses a month before the test?? Im NOT saying that is the case, more just an example of what could happen... If WADA changes their rules to say you wont be guilty if your supplements contained the banned substance, that will cause a lot of issues!!
Anyway, assuming it was in fact unintentional, then i certainly wish for the best for these two athletes.

Exactly ... any professional taking an over the counter supplement is either an idiot or never read a thing on doping in sports. It's pretty well known by every competitive person I know that over the counter supplements can and generally are contaminated ... even the ones you don't think are.

OTC supplements are not regulated by the FDA and in some cases, the companies actually put banned substances in them without labeling them (though, they would never actually say they do) to get better results for their users and sell more product.

This is why "ALL" pro athletes or those that may be subjected to testing are warned not to take any OTC supplements, even multi-vitamins many times. You just don't know what's in them.

This of course makes for a great excuse when caught cheating though ... I didn't know it was in there is a great way to say you're not cheating, when you really are. It's been used many, many times by pro's.

So i shouldnt mail order me some spanish steak?? ;)

Found this interesting tidbit on the interwebs:

https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/...mining-drug-ost.aspx

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

I have no doubt that the athletes didn't know they were taking tainted substances but I seriously doubt the substance became 'incident contaminated' of 'cross contaminated' due to poor manufacturing practices. I think this distinction is really important for athletes to understand when it comes to the risk of taking supplements.

As an analytic chemist with some experience studying bioactive compounds I am VERY skeptical about banned substances ending up in products at concentrations which trigger a fail test. Every drug testing protocol has its own built in error limits such that it takes a pretty preposterous chain of events to transfer enough of a substance like ostarine into a salt tablet for an athlete to then test positive. It is far more likely these PEDs are intentionally put into products by the manufacturers or suppliers (in secret so consumers are none the wiser) so that the products have a clear performance enhancing edge. I will try and dig out an article from a few years ago which reported just how rampant this issue was with producers adding steroids to creatine powder. The issue wasn't just a matter of a rouge company but of the labs which produce products (then sold by many companies) trying to increase the total market usage by creating products with clear performance enhancing business.

In summary I think there needs to more recognition that their is a nefarious side to sports supplement production and athletes are pawns in the game rather than victims of an unfortunate accident. This doesn't make the athletes who were caught deserve their punishment, and as a whole I think the community needs to push back against the industry.

Agree, but how to regulate that fairly. Again, athletes could easily 'spike' their own supplements, etc. And in cases of genuine fault of the manufacturer, will it make the other athletes that maybe missed out on podium and prize money because they were beat by someone that had pharmaceutical assistance, feel better? Maybe, i dunno..

Sadly it's more common than you would think for non tested supplement to be contaminated. Usually the supplement manufactur is 3rd partly manufactured in a facility the may be making a whole host of things.

Theach company selling the product doing want to pay the extra for third party testing, so you have a recipe for cross contamination.

The companies that do third party test their products are more likely to take more care in their manufacturing process.

The smart athlete only use a supplement that has a traceable manufacture and batch testing process. Also they only take them when it is absolutely necessary to minimise risk.

This doesn't just affect Pro athletes. Can you trace the manufacture of the supplements that you use? This includes gels, energy powaders, protein powders etc etc.

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http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

She will serve a six-month suspension for testing positive for the same substance, Ostarine. The suspension was retroactively enacted from the positive test date and expires tomorrow.

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At least they're coming down hard on the athletes. Seriously though, if that's the type of punishment, what's the point?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

And I suppose every duffle bag (d-bag for short) that has no independent thought and jumps at the opportunity to put down someone who is a superior athlete to them because it makes them think they are better than them would say. I'm not saying that describes you but if we're lumping everyone together based on what the guilty say, you look like a real d-bag.

I don't even have a sense how expensive or feasible this would be to test everything before you take it. You can't even just test the product, you would have to test each tablet, packet, gel, etc. since a specific lot could be contaminated. Is a home test for all banned substances available, affordable, and could return results fast enough to take what you just tested before it goes bad since it could be perishable?

"do you know what the difference in manufacturing is that makes something like a salt tablet risky, but "normal food" non-risky?"

no. and i've asked jonathan toker to recast his old 2008 article in the context of the news of yesterday. i would just say that a company making bread is not likely to also be making supplements. i think those are discrete and different operations.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

All information I have found has shown this not to be true at all. It is only manufactured legally by a pharmaceutical company using it in clinical trials. It is illegal for anyone else to use for any reason. There was this link someone posted above and the one from the FDA that I posted earlier.

People do seem to be making and selling it illegally - either openly on the internet and also purposely in supplements, unlabeled.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

But the company that made the vitamin C supplement that was added to the bread? They probably make all sorts of stuff.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Wouldn't outing the supplement company hold them accountable at least a little bit? PR pressure which in turn would force them to hold their manufacturers to higher standards. Being able to remain nameless won't help drive better accountability.

I cant remember if it is wada, itu, etc but at least one of them keeps a list posted online of supplements known to have contained banned substances.

"It is far more likely these PEDs are intentionally put into products by the manufacturers or suppliers (in secret so consumers are none the wiser) so that the products have a clear performance enhancing edge."

you bring up a good point and jonathan toker and i had this discussion last night. let's say that one of his products contained a trace amount of ostarine (his product, btw, was not implicated in the present case based on my reporting). then you dump this into the "lake" which is the human body, making this trace amount the next thing to undetectable. so, how can uncleaned equipment be the culprit?

however, what YOU are saying is that companies intentionally spike their salt tabs (or whatever) with a drug that makes you perform or recover very well, so you keep buying more of it. okay. but then when these athletes get popped and the supplements are tested, one by one, you'd certainly find the supplement with more than a trace of ostarine. more like a scoopful (or whatever the necessary amount is).

where are the supplements with scoopfuls?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for chiming in on this. The whole notion of "accidental" cross-contamination never made sense to me.

This what you were thinking of?

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/...All=false&page=6

No, it was a list posted on one of the sport governing anti doping sites. Might have been the Canadian one. That said, it might have been the same list of products that your link has, not sure

This loops back around to what some people have already said; that using "supplements" is flirting with disaster. And lets face it, most people that are using supplements are looking for performance benefits/advantages over their competition. Legally, yes, but still, that is the whole point of putting these supplements in to your body. Hopefully everything in them is above board and maybe you eke out a 0.5% performance gain, but you must acknowledge the risk that a supplement contains undisclosed stuff that could result in a positive test. Safer to avoid supplements altogether.

What to do? Food. Balanced diet. I do use gels (Powerbar gels are my favorite) and sports drink (Infinit, UCan and Gatorade). Fairly reputable companies that I have to trust are keeping everything on the up and up. If I ever test positive for something (and I dream of being fast enough to be worth testing), I'll at least know where to start looking.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

supplement411.org

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

But knowing where to start looking (Lou had few enough she was able to track it down to the salt tabs) doesn't do anything. Salt tabs are pretty common and not any different in my eyes than the gels and sports drinks. Just a tough situation all around.

Now, lets not be honest that so many are trying to walk the fine line for a competitive "legal" edge

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I haven't read one single post in this thread yet beyond Bryan's first post/link.

I'd be willing to bet there's several posts by people saying Gerdes and Barnett did not knowingly cheat because they're such nice people, several people calling bullshit on that, and several posts about how supplements get contaminated in the manufacturing process.

How did I do?

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

This article does a really good job of reviewing the problem and to address your question when supplements get tested one-by-one you definitely do find ones with high PED concentrations :https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC2465258/

Included in the article are the results of a 2004 study of 634 widely available supplements. 14.8% of the tested substances contained banned PEDs. Some of the contamination levels were on the level of 10 parts per billion consistent with unintentionally cross-contamination (I seriously doubt these would cause a positive drug test). At the higher-end however you are talking 190 parts per million or 10,000 times the lower values. It is these higher values that are extremely unlikely to result from simple cross-contamination and, depending on the substance, will lead to failed drug tests. I realize that I am still talking about what might seem like trace concentrations but the list of things they tested for include some extremely potent substances that aren't just kicking around production facilities at high levels.

Also it does not surprise me that both athletes who tested positive were female. Drug tests are calibrated against the 'normal' gender range for hormone-type substance and for many steroidal substances women have lower critical thresholds for a positive test (this is where gender testing in sports opens its own can of worms of what what is fair). In other words if men and women take the same substance a men can, in general, take higher doses before they fail the test. The issue is amplified when considering that on average women are smaller then men and their for the drugs are more concentrated in their bodies. I will bet that there were men who took the same tainted supplements as the two unfortunate female athletes and got tested but didn't return positive test due the aforementioned factors. I believe that (unfortunatley) female athletes need to be far more careful about supplements than male athletes because they are more likely to fall victim to testing positive as a result of taking supplements.

"i will bet that there were men who took the same tainted supplements as the two unfortunate female athletes"

i find your statement quoted, and the thread in general, interesting against the backdrop of the recent case of the UK athlete found to have inadvertently ingested clenbuterol. i don't know which athlete did what, nor do i know why. i just note a lot of skepticism in the clen case and somewhat more benefit of the doubt in this case.

is it because of gender? nationality? is it because of how people see clenbuterol versus ostarine? is it because of which organization handled results management? i don't know. but that latter point, to me that's a very compelling point. i believe that we'll never really feel good about drug testing until results management is handled by independent actors who are entirely neutral.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Neither woman noted in the charges would knowingly put that in their body.


Doesn't everyone say the exact same thing?


And I suppose every duffle bag (d-bag for short) that has no independent thought and jumps at the opportunity to put down someone who is a superior athlete to them because it makes them think they are better than them would say. I'm not saying that describes you but if we're lumping everyone together based on what the guilty say, you look like a real d-bag.


I didn't make any statement on the case. However, in every single drug case in history, the person testing positive says they wouldn't knowingly take drugs and I was responding to the poster who seemed to use that as proof of their innocence.

We don't know all the facts, but I was responding to the poster who appeared to know for a fact that they are innocent because they wouldn't knowingly put that in their body. It's not really a convincing defense.


Have you ever heard of a case where the person testing positive comes out and said they knowingly did it? Surely, the thousands of cases of drug use in sports has taught us something.

General thread response.

Classified Nutrition was added to supplement 411 on usada site yesterday (Feb 3) as high risk to contain Ostarine.

These were in competition tests. Doing an ironman especially at pro level is near impossible without salt tablets.

Lets stick to facts. Trace limits of a drug that has 1 to 5 day life cycle with 1 athlete able to prove it was in her salt tablets (assume she had more at home for review testing from same batch) and the other had one test with it in (Beth's blog outlines this) a 2nd with it not in from 2 different batches of pills. Hence Lisa 6 month and Beth 2 year and neither 4 years.

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@rhyspencer

How is using gels and Infinit any different than taking a salt tab? Doesn't infinit contain the same ingredients as most salt tabs? If you are going to condemn people for looking for advantages over their competition (which by your language infers that it is somehow immoral or unfair let legal) and flirting with disaster by taking salt tabs and then in the next paragraph you say you just eat food... oh and infinit and gels... what point are you trying to make?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Did you miss what he said in the bolded print above? He's implying its still a risk, he's putting some trust in the companies that so far have a good track record of not making athletes test positive.

Nope, its mostly been tubulars vs clinchers. :)

This makes sense and you have credibility. More people should listen to

The "spike your own supplement" thing is not quite so simple. This is an obvious approach, and you'll note that in Lauren's case, they were able to confirm it NOT ONLY in the bottle she had BUT ALSO in a second bottle FROM THE SAME LOT.

The idea that you can just present a bottle with traces of X and say, "oh, my supplement was tainted!" is an oversimplification. And, of course, it's also limited to certain substances which can be ingested. No way, for example, EPO is coming from a salt pill.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

No way Lauren took it knowingly. It's retroactive for just 6 months and she just announced she's pregnant so it won't affect her future racing. If the supplement was contaminated and she had no clue, should she still even have the 6 month retroactive suspension? Are athletes expected to test every single supplement they take? The manufacturer of the supplement screwed up, not the athlete.


This is the challenge with this. I WANT to believe these athletes. They seem to have plausible reasons for the positive tests. But these are the SAME stories, explanation and defenses that truly dirty, athletes caught doping who have knowingly used PED's, concoct. So you really don't know who's telling the truth here other than going with your gut!

On the supplements business in general - for the most part it's completely un-regulated with no standards. Yes - many companies go on and on about how clean they are (I'd REALLY like to believe them) . . but - just read over my first paragraph. That's the reason that, when you are at the elite/pro national team level in most sports, and you are in your Federation's testing pool, they give you this massive book the size of the Bible, with all the things you SHOULD NOT take. In short, they tell you, don't take anything!*

I'm still not 100% clear with these athletes who are focusing exclusively on WTC/IRONMAN races if the protocols, process and procedures are the same as those athletes who are part of national federation testing pools. Can someone enlighten me, please?

*This is why, if you tested the whole field at Ironman Hawaii unannounced, you would get a surprising number of positive tests among age-groupers - almost all of them like the Barnett/Gerdes situation - unintentional/inadvertent. Many age-group triathletes pop all manner of vitamin pills, and supplements of all kinds like candy! This is also why really wide-spread testing of age-group athletes has it's challenges.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This.

Maybe my point, in retrospect, is that we are all fucked.

ETA. My other point, not necessarily related to these two athletes, is that if you are taking Super"T"CyberGeni-Platinum/Carbon-Endurance Booster that you ordered because someone said that it would make you faster...... it wouldn't be that shocking if there were undisclosed ingredients. Caveat emptor.

ps. I think salt tabs are mostly voodoo.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

You're like the kid in class that comes late and just regurgitates everything that that had been covered in the lesson for the last 30 minutes just to show how smart they are to everyone else and to waste everyone's time.

How did I do?

Perhaps it is time to make these companies put on their labels that this product is made in the same facility which manufactures banned substances (or something that sounds better).
When i buy stuff I am vigilant about checking whether the product was made in a facility which also processes tree nuts. I have to be otherwise my son would likely die. Personally, if there is anything in a product I am ingesting that isn't on the ingredient list, I would lose it on that company.

almost all unintentional/inadvertent, no way, just the other way around.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

almost all unintentional/inadvertent, no way, just the other way around.


Dave,

I was being a bit kinder and just giving people the benefit of the doubt!

I know the way keen AG triathletes are. Tell then that anything will make them 10% faster/better, and, they are lined up to buy 3-boxes each! So yes, unintentional/inadvertent via gullibility and ignorance!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Nope. Not my style. 1) I wouldn't be late, and 2) I was never one to speak up in class unless directly asked to do so. Tests and homework did the talking for me. ;-)

These caught doping threads are just extremely predictable. Now that I read the comments I was pretty much spot on, although less calling of bullshit on their innocence as I would've thought.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Any recommendations for a salt tab company that is known for doing everything possible to make a clean product? I'd been using the Base Performance salt, but now looking at their website I see there's really nothing at all about testing/product purity.

avatar78 wrote:

Any recommendations for a salt tab company that is known for doing everything possible to make a clean product? I'd been using the Base Performance salt, but now looking at their website I see there's really nothing at all about testing/product purity.

I use this stuff:

http://highfive.co.uk/


They even have a statement about being Drug-Free http://highfive.co.uk/drugs-free/

do not read post #11 of this thread. whatever you do, ignore that post!

but if you simply do not ignore it and, against my warning and wisdom, you read that post anyway and (even worse!) follow the link from that post, do not draw any conclusions about the author of that article! and about the product he makes!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The one thing that stands out to me still is the fact that it's only been female athletes that have tested positive. If there is widespread contamination, then why haven't others, and males, been caught? Is it a drug that would be more beneficial for females? I'm asking. I don't know.

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https://twitter.com/mungub

i come here to chime in with conspiracy theory. beth was one of advocates for the 50/50 pro kona campaign. could it be some sort of sabotage ? its real hard when you factor in her race schedule just to toe the line at kona, taking 5 or so races it is barely enough time to research everything you take (beyond what the label says) as an international competitor who travels to race for long distance events.

then again flip side of the coin doing that many races may need a boost.

very interesting to what happens next.... can the athlete take the supplement maker to court?

I did a quick search on this last night. According to some of the various bodybuilding forums, yes, SARMs as a group are more beneficial to women than to men. Which would make sense to me given my layman's understanding of genetics and biology. And also what's been reported about, for example, the relative levels of testosterone among elite female athletes vs the general population.

Speaking very generally, the range of "normal" testosterone levels for women is much broader than it is for men. For obvious reasons. So, given that, you'd expect that use of androgenic hormones would make a bigger impact on females. You saw this with the East Germans. The impact of doping on those women was much more performance enhancing as compared to the men. Making a woman "like a man" is much more of a change than making a man "more manly."

As far as females testing positive, female athletes are generally lighter than male athletes, so if we're talking about the same number of salt pills, you can easily see where a 120lb female could be over a certain threshold than a 170lb male would be under. That's the "optimistic" view.

If you look at ostarine sanctions more generally - outside of triathlon - it seems to be more men than women: http://www.usada.org/...g/results/sanctions/

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"It wasn't me" ST happy to take this defence from American athletes, but everyone else needs to be rubbed out the sport. Assuming that the tabs were not exclusively made for the two athletes why are there not more positives.

Uli Fluhme has been fairly outspoken on another media source. I would love to hear from him on ST. Maybe it's not worth it for him to wade in to the fray?

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Its not exactly the most popular brand of salt tabs out there, most people here have never heard of it. So then out of the very few triathletes that are for some reason using it instead of salt tabs, base salts, etc., how many of them are being tested? There ya go.

I wonder what would make these two female athletes choose this particular salt product over the really well known mainstream products?

I wonder why the athletes in question don't say something like "I took Neurolytes, manufactured by Classified Nutrition which subsequently came back testing positive for Ostarine. I would urge all athletes to avoid this product at all costs. "

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_______________________________________________
you know my name, look up my number
_______________________________________________

I would guess either they are sponsored by them or fear of lawsuit?

"I wonder what would make these two female athletes choose this particular salt product over the really well known mainstream products?"

according to my reporting these athletes took DIFFERENT brands of salt tabs.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I hear ya. I assume lawsuits. Frivilous or otherwise cost money. Rebekah Keat outed Hammer when she was popped. Havent touched Hammer since but for on course drink which is really no choice Challenge PEN 2013.

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@rhyspencer

As Dan said the athletes took different pills but you bring up a really good point. Why this particular product is a great question. I mean when they say "classified nutrition" I guess they really meant business. As I said in a thread a few weeks back, I ditched a whey protein company because the company was sending it IMO in fraudulent manner. Using USPS, which goes by weight and dimensions, using a prepaid label with the wrong weight measurement. When they did it a second time, I was done. If I can't trust a companies business practices how can I trust them to deliver a product that has what they say it has in it.

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Based on your Promo code for BASE Performance, can you share why you would trust/use their products?

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https://www.instagram.com/...alendurancecoaching/

I'm not sure about you guys, but I stick to a very simple rule when it comes to what supplements I do or do not take:

Stay away from anything that has lightning bolts on the bottle. (Seriously)

I suppose anything branding itself as "classified" could fall into the same bucket. If it's advertising itself as secret or as giving an edge over other supplements, then the first thing to ask is how

I am sure Matt Miller would be happy to chime in. Frankly I would have never thought salt would be a contaminated product. I am still very surprised. Now that I guess it is possible I do like that a whole bunch of pros use the product. While I use the product there are also so many pros who don't disclose they use it. While I haven't benen drug tested since 2013 I know lots of the others are getting tested.

On that note I don't even think I declared Salt as a supplement on my drug testing declaration sheet in 2013. I was on Salt Stick then.

While I don't have hard numbers I might venture to guess that Base is nearing to be the major player in salt in Ironman racing and I of course would like to see NSF certification. In fact it has me rethinking my position entirely that cGMP is not good enough that it also must be NSF. The only NSF product I take for sure is Powerbar BetaAlanine. But I will look to others in the future. These cases should be a wake-up for all pros.

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the salt tablets the two used were not even the same brand

Wasn't it Ostarine that the Australian pro Lisa Marangon also recently tested positive for ? I've heard no mention of salt tablets in her case

Yes she rekons someone contaminated her water bottle while it was unattended in transition.

Yes. And another pro from Utah, Ashley Paulson, was also suspended last year for I believe this same drug.
And she seems about as home-spun as they get. I don't buy it that these athletes are cheating. It is very sad when the system goes overboard and hurts honest people.
Here is an article about supplement companies adding this drug: https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/...mining-drug-ost.aspx

If they weren't intentionally doping they were obviously still taking big risks.
Have you seen the salt tabs that were found to be tainted, dodgy shit. There are 'safer' brands to take or 'risky' brands to take. The safe brands may be known to have no performance enhancing effect, and cost little, the risky brands claim otherwise and cost a lot...choices were made. Maybe not by all the women but definitely by at least one, and probably others.

Yes she rekons someone contaminated her water bottle while it was unattended in transition.


Just on this point, and having seen what goes on at big Ironman races - It's really hard to control 100% what an athlete will pick up on course.

In other elite level - Word Cup and Olympic Games type of competitions, because of the higher controlled nature of the field of competition, it's easier to do this.

Ironman I am sure does the best as they can, but because of the sheer size and sprawling nature of the race courses, and the fact that you have age-group/recreational athletes out on the same course as you have elite/pros, it's much more difficult to exert 100% control.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This has me thinking about the global manufacturing and outsourcing business.

What are the odds that both salt tablet brands are made out of the same factory?

If these athletes are indeed ingesting contaminated supplements, they need to be very vocal and identify the manufacturers.

According to the article, this is a regulated substance and it is against the law to add it to any supplement. Even if the company did not intentionally add ostarine to the salt tabs, they are outsourcing to another facility who is illegally using ostarine. They need to be outed because any of their products could be contaminated. Simply having a list someplace on the internet isn't good enough. Before this thread, I didn't even know about this list of potentially contaminated supplements and suspect manufacturers.

When I hear an athlete cry about a positive test due to contaminated supplements and then the athlete doesn't name the manufacturer, I have a hard time believing the athlete. If the supplements really are contaminated, get the name of the manufacturer out there! The only way we can change these practices is with bad publicity so people avoid anything produced by these companies.

Yes.

And really the story should be telling us the name of the substance, at least in the case where the story of cross contamination was believed. Then it is up to the salt tab maker to prove their innocence, there by throwing the athlete under the bus, or come clean and prove that they are doing better going forward.

Someone screwed up in this story. Either the company in question made a bad product, through horrid quality control, or made a PED for athletes on purpose, or the athlete found a way to spike their salt tabs with the PED of choice. None of these scenarios are good.

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Ian

If I take a giant step back and look at this as objectively as possible, I have a hard time believing the athelete justifications and reasons for testing positive.

Of all the chemical compounds in the entire world, the supplement you were taking just happened to have a specifically isentified and banned chemical that can potentially enhance your performance.

In top of that, athelete have been universally warned about taking "supplements".

If your BS detector doesn't at least flash suspicious it's broken.

I'm not saying this is enough to draw final conclusions, but it's foolish to ignore the Occam's Razor "logic".

Ok, apparently the unopened product tested positive. I get that. But again, of all of the salt sticks one could choose, this person just happened chose the one "tainted" with a performance enhancing drug at levels that can the detected from a blood test.

Highly suspect

Right but that is thing, this is salt for crying out loud. It is not like it is something I just made up:

"Jacked"
- Increase FTP by 60 watts
- Increase Recovery Ability
- Have better sex etc

Athletes are going to need salt and other basic ingredients unless Ironman loosens up their policy on littering and we bring back bananas

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There are probably a myriad of factors that I am not thinking about but,

- Libel could be a very serious thing
- The athlete can't really control the message. Even in Beth's case where her blog is linked to, the articles themselves still control the eyeballs. It is what THEY write that matters and the athletes don't control that.

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That's my point. How is salt, something so basic, "tainted" with, OF ALL THINGS, a very specific performance enhancing drug. That doesn't just randomly happen. There is some form of intentionality going on somewhere in this chain of events.

1. These companies secretly add performance enhancing chemicals so that they can sell more of their product. Mass market age groupers, the target market, take them, realize benefits (not knowing the benefits actually accrue from the banned substance) and tell their friends to buy said product.

2. Pro athletes do the same as above.

3. Pro athletes do same as above, but actually know the "real" story.

4. Pro athletes are taking the banned substances intentionally and then just blame generic contamination.

Do you retain un-opened bottles of supplements as a precaution for future testing? If I was a pro and using supplements, I would.

Personally, I'm not surprised that salt tablets would be contaminated. Most supplement manufacturing is contracted out to contract research organizations (CRO's) based on lowest cost. Where are these CRO's? Many of them are in places like India, China, etc. What's the quality control like at the CRO? If the last batch of material that went through the tableting machine, was a contaminated batch of "Mr Max's Muscle Super Booster", well, then there's a chance that the next tableting run will be contaminated if the machine wasn't cleaned properly. One way to get around this is to do all manufacturing in-house. You should also have an analytical group with QA/QC to check the quality of the raws entering your site (e.g. is the salt, really 100% salt).

I looked at the websites of a couple supplement companies. None of them disclose any information on manufacturing or what they are doing regarding quality control. Most of them have athlete testimonials, but nothing on how often they test the finished product for composition or contamination. Personally, If I'm going to take a supplement or nutritional item (e.g. gel), I only use items from companies that I think are large enough to manufacture in-house (e.g. gels, it's Clif, Powerbar, Gu only).

I don't think it is a fact that this drug is "performance enhancing" in the case of endurance athletes.
It seem to be more used by body builders in lieu of steroids. The target market is supposedly osteoporosis patients or to slow down muscle wasting in cancer patients.

And as Gerdes stated in her blog the 1/2 life and cycle for this drug would do no good for the race she competed in. She states that she was tested and clean 4 or so weeks before at another tri.

The theory is that improper machine cleaning contaminates the drugs. The stuff in the prior batch inadvertently gets into the next batch.

That sounds reasonable, but is it true?

Someone earlier in the thread, identifying as a chemist, said this is unlikely. It's unlikely that residual chemicals on the manufacturing equipment would be at levels high enough enough for someone to get popped on a blood test.

So I just brought this up in the other thread on the topic and the problem is that is there are so many places for error. You can:

- Source the ingredients yourself
- Test them to make sure they are clean
- Make your batch
- Distribute

But just look at Wells Fargo, one of the World's Largest Banks. You still have to ensure that people DO their jobs ethically. Who is to say the analytical people don't to do their job correctly or maybe management says "don't test that batch, we need to save some money".

When it comes down to it there is no 100% absolute guarantee and there is always going to be the possibility for things to go wrong. In addition, I think large companies like Clif, Powerbar, Gu give the illusion of security but we don't really know. One product I use by Powerbar is cNSF and that is their Beta-Alanine. Obviously post-production analysis is going to be your best chance at reducing positive tests.

Fwiw, Base I believe is made in New York or New Jersey - but I believe they changed it up in the last year or so. As for me, I haven't kept bottles, but like I said my processes are going to change because of this. Yesterday I had to re-order Vitamin D. Instead of going with a 500 capsule bottle I went with 5x100 capsule bottles for this very reason. It was more expensive to do so. In addition, what happens when I get to the last bottle and I don't have another unopened bottle? Do I just re-order and hope I get the same batch lot again? If not I guess I would have to pitch the 5th bottle.

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Fair enough. But then why is it banned for triathletes?

That would be one theory (tableting machine contamination), it may be unlikely, but I don't think it can be completely ruled out. From what I understand, the levels that were found in the salt tablets were trace. How did it get there? It could also be that one of the components in the salt tablet mix itself was contaminated (e.g. the NaCl raw feed somehow contained Ostarine (how? Well here's an spitball thought: What if the NaCl needs to be particle size reduced for proper tableting, and what if that's done on a jet mill that just particle size reduced Ostarine?)). You'd have to go back through the entire process, from raws to final tablet to find out where the contamination occurred.

There are multiple reports of contaminated supplements. This is not an isolated incident. Contamination could occur at all points in the manufacturing cycle (from raws to final tablet). To me, the only way to really control the product, is to own as much of the process as possible (or you've really got to have good manufacturing partners).

I agree on the personnel issue. You can have all the policies/procedures in place, but if the person doesn't do their job, then the product could be compromised.

Regarding large companies, perhaps I'm naive, but my hope is that those companies are more likely to have folks with the proper education/expertise to ensure quality control/quality assurance/product quality. I'm less certain if people with those qualifications are employed by smaller supplement companies.

I agree with your decision to retain un-opened bottles of supplements. Based on the uncertainty around quality in supplements, I think it's part of the "cost" of being a professional athlete.

They said the same thing about EPO and marathon runners. It would be no good for them. Yet who gets popped for EPO use?

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Ian

A quick google shows that a lot of your first paragraph describes testosterone as well. Why do endurance athletes get busted for that?

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Good point. I still think this is an injustice and gone too far. Thanks Lance.

I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Have you checked the ingredients? Wait, you eat a Denny's a lot.....so go figure....

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leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

So you're saying that if she uses it to reduce fat and increase muscle, but doesn't cycle it specifically for a certain race, then it doesn't help at all?

I don't know about the drug, but it seems like people cycle on/off drugs so they don't get popped for it.

Would she have any benefit from it taking it following a race? Does it increase muscle and allow better recovery? Yes. So taking a smaller amount after a half Ironman when you're racing a full in 4 weeks would have some benefit.

Like I said, I don't know anything about the half life etc so I might be way off.

She also said in her blog that she didn't take it, yet science and drug testing says otherwise

I quit reading her blog when she threw out a bunch of faulty logic abiut her history with drug testing. As we know, never testing positive doesn't mean lance wasn't dirty. Never missing a test also doesn't mean she wasn't using Ostarine.

I never take a supplement to help improve my performance, increase recovery, etc. But, maybe I am the exception. I just train hard

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

testosterone increasing products during a race are useless. they are worth while taken for a long period of time before a race (to do multiple hard workouts and recover quick for them) or after a competition (to get back to doing multiple hard workouts quickly). so taking the strongest steriod shot or pill 1 hour before a race, will not do anything.

She did have the drug in her system. Does that mean that she was, "using Ostarine?" I think not. She knew she would be tested when she was placing well. I doubt that she would do this (for various reasons) but not unimportantly because she would lose her credibility. Her stance on clean sport etc. It seems ridiculous that people are questioning this. Of course if she is dirty then I think you would want her spouse tested. Stat.

 
I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.[/quote]

Have you checked the ingredients? Wait, you eat a Denny's a lot.....so go figure....[/quote]

I never take a supplement to help improve my performance, increase recovery, etc. But, maybe I am the exception. I just train hard[/quote]
Right. Of course you don't. Because you are the only one amongst the pros and on this forum who trains hard......

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leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

Have you checked the ingredients? Wait, you eat a Denny's a lot.....so go figure....[/quote]

I never take a supplement to help improve my performance, increase recovery, etc. But, maybe I am the exception. I just train hard[/quote]

Right. Of course you don't. Because you are the only one amongst the pros and on this forum who trains hard......[/quote]I am just curious. Do you consider taking whey protein a supplement?

They are juiced out of their minds

my observation: if you know an athlete this drastically reduces the likelihood you think that athlete is a doper. likewise anything that causes you to have an affinity for the athlete (gender, nationality, a reader of the athlete's blog, etc.).

if you don't know the athlete; if the athlete is not from your country; if the athlete is a 2-dimensional cardboard figure to you; you're much more likely to assume the athlete is doping.

i am guilty of this. the only difference between me and everyone else is that i admit it. i have no flipping idea who is guilty and who is not. i just think that it would be interesting to put the simple facts of each of these cases that come up and see really how much the differ, how much they are alike, and what the public reaction is to them.

what is troubling to me is the result of the infraction: either a 4yr ban, a 2yr ban, no ban, a completely silent and unknown (to you and me) results management process, or a total cave by the testing authority, all for pretty similar infractions.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think it is very challenging to write in general as the perspectives of people are so diverse that you never know how they are going to interpret things. In this specific instance it has to be even more challenging. She is trying to give all the details people might want to know. I think she wanted to make it clear that prior to this event, nothing had been "swept under the rug". As we have seen lately by FancyBear, there are plenty of people who have abused the TUE process, and we would have never known about them had FancyBear not exposed them. She has also said she has never missed test. I am not sure if either one of these facts can even be legitimately verified but I can understand why she feels it is important to mention - simply put missing tests and abusing TUEs is very shady. It may be *technically* legal, but it is shady.

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I agree 100%. I do know Beth and have gone back and forth about her guilt/innocence. I know the work she put in. But the fact is she had ostarine in her system. I tiny amount. And her blog post is full of things that are not logically related to her innocence. This is smoke and mirrors to me.

Fwiw, I also commented to someone a few months ago that something was up with her lack of return to racing after a minor procedure. So maybe I was already looking at her like she was guilty even though I feel like I wasn't.

i wrote about the process a year or so ago. i haven't spoke to beth, but in general the reason you might not see her racing is because the results management process is secret while it's ongoing, but the athlete is not allowed to race (in ironman racing, but i think per the Code in all federation racing) while the process is ongoing.

so, somebody's not racing for 9 months and suddenly is racing again. maybe an injury. maybe a pregnancy. maybe i'm finishing my degree. could be a lot of things. but it could be i got popped and it took me 9 months to demonstrate my innocence in which case i wasn't allowed to race during that time period. but you'll never know because it's unfair to me to even have it be known that i was popped because if it turns out i'm innocent then why should my reputation be sullied even by the knowledge that there was an adverse finding?

in the case of lauren barnett i think her ban was over a day after her ban was announced. this is because she was effectively banned during her results management process, so her ban started then.

you never have to worry about an athlete racing after returning an adverse A sample and while his or her case is in process. that's a good thing, i think.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

First if you know her then I am surprised that you question her innocence. Secondly why don't you share with , instead of intimating, what you feel are the smoke and mirrors and logic regarding her innocence. I thought her blog post was pretty well laid out.
She explained in her blog post why she didn't come back, because she was under investigation. She gave her Kona slot up because she wanted to be fair to her fellow competitors. Oh btw, I have never met her so I have no reason to defend her so strongly other than I feel it is unjust. And sad.

Dave,

I have a hard time believing that you would do anything but the exact opposite of what any coach suggested.

Maurice

 I know the work she put in.//

I see people use this phrase all the time, but what really does it(do you) mean? As far as I know, dopers and clean athletes work just as hard as each other, how much work someone puts in has "0" to do with weather they doped or not. Come to think of it, the dopers I have known and trained with did put in more work, for obvious reasons. But work ethic I would never use as a factor in whether I think someone dopes or not.. That is just something that all great athletes have as part of their DNA, otherwise they would never have gotten where they have in sport.

Then you do not know me very well. I listen to anyone's inputs. I changed my bike training because of an input from a coach. Will see if it helps this years season.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I must be a real doper with the number of hours I train and only do Olympic distance stuff. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think everyone agrees that dopers work hard. Maybe harder than most. As they are willing to put everything on the line including their integrity to win. They don't do it to replace hard work but to add the extra edge.

Just being a smart ass Dave :-)

Happy Super Bowl!

But you have a link for Boom nutrition and a discount code listed in your signature...

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

The smoke, mirrors, and logic are the same whether is cycling or swimming or track and field or UFC or just about any other sport when somebody gets a positive result...

I didn't know it was in what I was taking.

I worked harder.

I changed my entire approach to training.

I cleaned up my diet.

I changed my cadence.

My coach gave it to me.

And I'm not making a judgement with the above statement one way or another. People have claimed for a long time that triathlon is clean. Mainly because there was no real testing program in long distance. And yet, even without a real testing program through the "EPO era" of cycling, there were a few busts here and there in tri. But with no robust testing program how were we to know? Triathlon could simply claim that there haven't been that many positive tests which was (and is) basicially true.

Now there is a testing program for long course that started around 2010 (maybe a year or two later), and like Dan said above there still is not a robust results management program. Maybe (with a grain of salt) with the WTC/ITU partnership it will get better but positives, especially at the highest level, are bad for business.

So we get a few positives, and we see the above responses to a test. I'm not disagreeing with cross-contamination defense. Salt tablets were the issues 10+ years ago with at least 2 other athletes, who did not end up receiving a suspension. And we get the nice person, etc. reasoning because the assumption is that only jerks cheat or that I spend time with that person they couldn't do it under my nose.

Dan has written extensively about it. And he has been accused, rightly so, of defending athletes in question too much. He has admitted it in this thread. The system is not set up against the athlete. I'd argue that if anything it is set up in favor of the athlete. As pros, the onus is on the athlete to know what they are ingesting. And, it's also incumbent on an athlete who has tested positive (A sample and B sample) to show that it is some biological/physiological (that's been used) reason that they did or show other proof (like cross contamination) that it was an inaccurate result. That the smoke and mirrors were not smoke and mirrors but logic and proof.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Is there a football game on today? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So? Are they sold as supplements? I have to eat something while racing, and Boom gels have always worked for me since I take nothing else in a race but water.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Gels are every bit as much a supplement as salt.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

If the investigation is ongoing then you cannot name the company/salt manufacturer...

The investigation must be over and everything all finalised otherwise the bans couldn't have been given.

"Pro Women"

Fuck that term gets thrown around way too easily these days in the age of instagram.

If they were...this wouldn't of happened.

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http://www.sweat7.com
Facebook Page: Sweat7
Twitter: @sweat7coaching

Why? what do you mean this wouldn't have happened?

 
If you're a professional - you do your diligence. Unfortunately these silly muppets are just playing at it.

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http://www.sweat7.com
Facebook Page: Sweat7
Twitter: @sweat7coaching

Summarised perfectly.

unless they took it on purpose.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

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http://www.sweat7.com
Facebook Page: Sweat7
Twitter: @sweat7coaching

Careful!

Really? You don't see the problem here, or the contradiction? Please define a "supplement". These were (ostensibly) salt tablets for fucks sake, common as muck in our sport, often to be found strapped to handlebars in little dispensers. No different than racing with gels carrying industrially produced electrolytes, surely?

Have you fooled yourself into believing that the not "sold as supplements" gels you buy are totally natural products, because they use real fruit juices? Which tree does Potassium Benzoate grow on, please? Where do they harvest their malic acid?

Here are some malic acid salts which are added to the gels you take when you race. Looks kind of supplementy to me.



Pros ought to be more careful, for sure. But let's think about our own actions before casting judgement.


For info.. Boom Grape and Pomegranate carb gels:


INGREDIENTS
Maltodextrin, Water, Pineapple Syrup, Concord and Red Grape Concentrates, Natural Flavors, Pomegranate Concentrate, Potassium Citrate, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Tartaric Acid, Malic Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Potassium Benzoate.

I think they meant any potential suit investigation.

I'm a "salt" user myself and was very curious as to which salt products these athletes used. I wish they'd just come out and name the product since so many other athletes could end up in the same situation of "unknowingly" using "contaminated" salt. I use Salt Stick and quickly went to their website to check their manufacturing and testing protocol. They should bump this to their front page in wake of this recent ban involving salt products : http://saltstick.com/...rug-testing/#testing
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Straightenin' the curves; Flattenin' the hills
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Coached by Mike Plumb @ TriPower MultiSports
https://www.strava.com/athletes/1149072 - https://www.instagram.com/thoswoods/

I beleive one of the athletes (Barnett) was using Neurolytes (https://classifiednutrition.com/...olytes-100-capsules/). I'd never heard of the brand until yesterday and I imagine most other people haven't either.

Maybe I'm a skeptic but reading Beth Gerdes blog post makes her look worse, the WTC didn't buy what she is trying to sell so I don't know why I should either when they have significantly more information regarding this situation than I ever will. Not saying she did or didn't intentionally take a banned substance but her blog post reeks of 'woe is me'.

Perhaps the athletes have lawyers who are telling them to keep the name of the manufacturer quiet while they work out a settlement.

Mislabeling, contamination and false advertising are illegal. Even if the presence of the banned substance is in the salt tablets as a result of contamination in the manufacturing process, it is, at the least, negligence on the part of the manufacturer and actionable. Our tort system, including the ability of plaintiff's attorneys to charge contingent fees, may have the best, sometimes only, regulatory effect on industry. If these athletes used tablets from a bottle labeled "salt tablets," read the ingredients and saw no mention of ostarine, then they should absolutely sue to recover for the damages to their livelihood and reputation and to cause the manufacturer to meet its duty to provide uncontaminated products.

Clearly not a professional writer ;) what due diligence should they have done. I agree the brand name in Lauren's case is a little sketch

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I think the BIGGER question in all this is why the athlete was using Neurolytes when they are/were sponsored by Nuun:

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This is almost exactly what many people (myself included) said about Lance 10 years ago.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Correct... while the athletes may have accepted the bans/WTC ruling, doesn't mean they've stopped working to get to the bottom of the contamination problem... if not for their own case but to help the next athlete, professional or amateur, from a similar situation.

[quote
I beleive one of the athletes (Barnett) was using Neurolytes (https://classifiednutrition.com/...olytes-100-capsules/). I'd never heard of the brand until yesterday and I imagine most other people haven't either.

Maybe I'm a skeptic but reading Beth Gerdes blog post makes her look worse, the WTC didn't buy what she is trying to sell so I don't know why I should either when they have significantly more information regarding this situation than I ever will. Not saying she did or didn't intentionally take a banned substance but her blog post reeks of 'woe is me'.[/quote]


I think the BIGGER question in all this is why the athlete was using Neurolytes when they are/were sponsored by Nuun:[/quote]Sorry, I am not following you. What is wrong with the sponsor Nuun?

I think the BIGGER question in all this is why the athlete was using Neurolytes when they are/were sponsored by Nuun:[/quote]
Sorry, I am not following you. What is wrong with the sponsor Nuun?[/quote]
My point was, if you are sponsored by Nuun, why the heck would you be using Neurolytes??? That is shady enough. I can understand maybe for an Ironman where you need to take salt on the run. You don't need to talk salt in 70.3 IMO on the run. Take it all on the bike and hold on.

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But Lance was ever busted? Let's be honest, athletes trying to get an endurance edge use 3 things. They use

1) EPO - to flog themselves even harder
2) Testorone & HGH - recover from the flogging so they can flog themselves again sooner.

Where are the EPO, Testosterone, and Hgh busts in Triathlon? I think it is great that we are doing tests but it is security theater mostly. I know people are out there and using and abusing the big 3. Even athletes on whereabouts, but they simply know how to beat the system thru micro-dosing.

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I agree. I don't understand why she has an issue with WTC's ruling. They put the onus on her to show them what product was responsible for the cross-contamination, she was unable to do so and was banned. What did she expect? They'd take her word for it.. And I don't get her "woe is me" attitude, giving up the sport etc If you're innocent continue to fight and/or accept shit happens, do the 2 years and return a stronger person.

Read her blog and anything that is not directly related to the test that she tested positive in is not logically connected and therefore (to me) smoke and mirrors.

For example, previous passed tests and not missing a test is not related to failing the test she did.

Saying it wouldn't even help her for the race she tested positive is not logically connected to the fact that she did test positive in a test after a race. Is there another reason why she might take it?

Lots of fallacies of logic. That is smoke and mirrors.

zedzded,
I am guessing that her decision to not continue after the ban may have something to do with her age, her family and the ban has zapped her spirit. She is getting up in age as a pro triathlete and 2 years is a long time to be away from sport and competition.

 

But Lance was ever busted? Let's be honest, athletes trying to get an endurance edge use 3 things. They use

1) EPO - to flog themselves even harder
2) Testorone & HGH - recover from the flogging so they can flog themselves again sooner.

Where are the EPO, Testosterone, and Hgh busts in Triathlon? I think it is great that we are doing tests but it is security theater mostly. I know people are out there and using and abusing the big 3. Even athletes on whereabouts, but they simply know how to beat the system thru micro-dosing.[/quote]
Ostarine, a quick google gives this "is a SARM.
Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) provide the benefits of traditional anabolic/androgenic steroids such as testosterone (including increased muscle mass, fat loss, and bone density), while showing a lower tendency to produce unwanted side effects"

looks like new age testosterone to me

I'd say the chances they took it on purpose is much higher than unknowingly taking a contaminated supplement. Recently there have been, to my knowledge, 4 women busted for Ostarine (Gerdes, Barnett, Paulsen, Marangon) and ALL of them claimed contamination. It's like claiming contaminated supplements is just a way to potentially get yourself a reduced sentence, if these women did not claim contamination they would have definitely received a 4 year ban.

Also, I'm not sure how the supplement testing works but are they only testing factory sealed products provided by a 3rd party or are they testing opened and unopened canisters/packages provided by the athletes? I don't think it would be too difficult to provide a self contaminated supplement that appears to be factory sealed. If these women all took the same contaminated supplement then I'd be more likely to believe their stories but I don't think any of them took the same thing which makes it hard to believe that Ostarine is making its way into all these different products.

Yup. 100% true. In fact, if you could measure such a thing, I would suspect dopers put in more work than the rest of the field. It's consistent with the win at all costs mindset.

Id be surprised if there were many/any guys who dope so they can skip workouts and take it easy.

But would the athletes know the product was laced with Ostraine before taking it? Only if they show up on the Supplement411 would they know. Sure Neurolytes are now on the list but I don't think they were on the list before a few days ago.

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To answer a few questions:

1.) Neurolytes were added to the Supplement411 list right around the same time that the announcements were made by WTC.

2.) In Barnett's case, she was able to show in a bottle from the same lot that they, too, were contaminated with Ostarine. Hence why they're now on there. I obviously can't speak to the testing protocol as to how the lab wound up with bottles from the same lot. But I would anticipate that it is more controlled than the athlete supplying them. In Gerdes' case, she had preliminary findings of Ostarine in her supplement; however, they were not able to replicate the finding, thus the 2 year vs 6 mos/4 yr bans.

3.) With regard to manufacturing - for those questioning "how does this happen?" - there are a scant few brands that actually manufacture their own supplements (including salt) on their own equipment. Otherwise, you're at the risk of whatever is residue in the equipment from the line that was produced/bottled before yours. There's also little/no regulation...which isn't likely to change given the current federal administration.

4.) Why don't these athletes out the company? Because commercial libel/slander is a hell of a charge, and penalties of lost revenues, etc. gets difficult. Also, without knowing why X brand was contaminated...that gets messy. Considering the bank accounts of most pro triathletes, and the expense of defending a lawsuit...the cost-benefit analysis is simply not worth it.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

What if Beth just said "I found traces of ostarine in X product during 1 test but in another test I found none". (and that's all she says.... doesn't bash said company and lets the readers do that themselves). As long as she could provide proof of those tests, I don't see how that could be slander since there was proof it was true.

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blog

Its still a question of fact as to whether or not it is an untruthful statement about the manufacturer, at which point you're still going to trial (because reputation harm / provable damages get you past summary judgment / motion to dismiss).

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Well so on the flip side, what are the chances Beth would have a case to go after the supplement company?

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Product liability would be interesting...off the top of my head, issues of injury and damages / mitigation. Not to mention that supplements are so unregulated...and USADA/WADA being really more a workplace regulation than anything else.

More expensive / time consuming than its worth, and likely a fool's errand.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

In addition, she is pregnant with her second kid, which makes coming back that much harder. I feel like we see pro woman who have one kid, I wonder how many women keep competing as pros once they have two.

What good would it do her? If she has a suit against the company or is even considering it, she would be advised not to say. I know everyone thinks they are owed the info but there is only downside to her to say it and the only upside is to out them for others to avoid. I'm all for the greater good but not if it puts me and my family at risk.

So Gerdes has more to say on her blog about her case. And she's reading ST obviously.
She also said her sample had leakage or something from another athletes sample. I would think that would negate the results immediately.

Might have to watch that old Seinfeld episode where they test the "Fat-Free" yogurt.

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Thomas, I know you are very detailed in your approach to training/racing. Would you now consider pulling a small sample aside from each container of supplement/nutrition you take during training/racing? It would be tedious, but if you ever tested positive, you would have a sample from each batch of anything you consumed during the season. You could just have a small collection of baggies and jars for the season and then throw them out and restart each season.

This is going off the presumption that supplements can be tainted in the manufacturing process...

As surprising as it may sound, professional athletes are expected to strictly monitor any and every substance that goes into their body. That is why many high level athletes don't take supplements and if they do, they take it from a reputable manufacturer. You'll notice that none of the athletes list what manufacturer supplement was contaminated with the illegal substance. You'd think that this would be public information, and if the athlete was in fact innocent, to warn other athletes of potential products to steer clear from, but none will mention what caused them to fail the test. Why? These two doping bans are the 6th and 7th triathlon doping bans from USADA...ever. They should be required to publicize the supplement that caused the failed test; if it was an honest mistake, they've nothing to hide. If the manufacturer of the supplement screwed up, WHO IS THE MANUFACTURER? Until this is known, the athlete is the one who screwed up because they put it in their body.

Well said. And WHAT SUPPLEMENTS WERE TAKEN?! They will not say! If you are not guilty, then why wouldn't you want to give fellow athletes a heads up on what NOT TO TAKE!? This is a red flag. Going back to Paulson...quoted from the April 2016 release about her ban "Paulson was taking a supplement that was subsequently examined, tested and found to be contaminated with the drug." Numerous coaches called her coach to find out what was taken to try and protect their athletes in the event that they were taking this 'contaminated' supplement...but he refused to say. These two new bans make 7 total doping bans in triathlon...ever. What a slap in the face to the other 99.99999% of professional triathletes in history to not test positive.

I'm not doubting that contamination can happen, I just find it odd that these athletes had Ostarine (out of the laundry list of other banned substances) in their supplements and to my knowledge these were all different supplements and/or brands.

Right...because everyone owes it to the public of a STer demands it be...

Plus it is public info in at least one case as everyone has deduced from the addition to 411. But you're right...as an athlete, regardless of their lives, they must monitor ST and abide by ST demands.

Which gets to the heart of part of this (and the front-page article does a pretty good job talking about this) - there are few actual manufacturers, many brands.

It's surprisingly similar to the run footwear industry - you have a couple of large factory lines with curtains/walls segmenting the different brands they are providing service to.

I think this is in part why you're seeing shortened bans for more athletes than anticipated - the contaminated supplement issue is more plausible than many on this board are giving it credit for.

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I would like to see us judge guilt/innocence based on a fair application of fair rules--and not base it on someone's likability, or social media presence, or good alibi, or whatever. Because there are friendly likeable people (with good PR skills) who dope and there are rotten SOB's (with terrible PR skills) who are clean.

That said, I'm very aware of the corruption/bribery/extortion involving doping at the top levels of the sport. This includes the recent president of the IAAF (track & field) and at least one WADA-certified lab. Who knows what goes on at the national federations, and within WADA itself? Which all makes me wonder if I'm naive in believing it's even possible to have a fair application of rules.

I got a big laugh from the article just from the pic they included. Because AG or pro doping isn't the biggest issue in triathlon. It's drafting and it's inability to be officiated corrrectly. Or let me say drafting is something that likely can be much fairer officiated than drug testing in this sport.

Ok sorry back to doping controls, I just laughed at the pic they included in the article of 400 + cyclist all "riding" in Kona (yes I know I know it was uphill but look at the line at bottom of hill all "drafting" ).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What good would that do? Instead of small sample, you would have to maintain a complete, unopened, sealed bottle of each supplement, and even then they might not accept it coming from the athlete who just popped a positive.

Sighs this approach is maddening. We expect pros to now become chemist? Because how are you the athlete validating that X baggy is from A product and Z baggy is from B product? Because you say so? Isn't that a flawed process from the start? So couldn't they say you contaminated it to cover your tracks? I guess there is no way to certify your process yes?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I might make some adjustments. Honestly, I am most likely going to keep evaluating what NEEDS to be taken an adjusting from there. For instance. You may have seen my recent Blood Test write-up. All my labs that supplements could fix are very normal. I wouldn't mind trying to lower and lower the dosage of say Iron, Vitamin D, and Magnesium and only supplement if I am at a deficit. I am planning on getting ~4 blood tests a year for the rest of my career.

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It's a CYA maneuver. Not flawless by any means, but it's also their career on the line.

What I'm asking is the legality of it. So every gu/gel/powder you have keep a pinch of it somewhere so you can cya. But that seems like opening up a big can of worms for legality of how X product is X and how you prove Y is not in X?

I guess I'm asking how are these pros suppose to validate that they didn't spike it after the fact that we have seen mentioned here. So what I'm bringing up is more or less chain of custody issues.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Somewhere I read that Laura gave the bottle of her pills for testing and then testers went and independently purchased more with the same batch numbers to also test. Both were positive to containing Ostarine.
Beth provided some un opened packets of the pills she had been taking, one she provided showed 'possible traces on it' but others did not. I assume independent purchasing of more tablets from the same batch number also proved clear, hence the 2 year ban. I thought was interesting wording from her to state 'on' not 'in'also. Maybe a typo, or maybe something quite different.
Basically the batch numbers are what need to be kept. not the product itself. Anyone could rub a bit of the banned product on what is already in their cupboard and send off for testing. Therefore It is the later testing of product, independently acquired, from the same batch that can get the ban lowered or not.

Not if they provide unopened packets. If the packets are truly sealed then the person could not rub the banned product on it, correct.

Basically the batch numbers are what need to be kept. not the product itself.

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thx for this info.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And this is a great post. A 6-month retroactive ban is damn near pointless. In the case of the 2015/16 female triathlete who tested positive for Ostarine (if you don't know who, look it up) getting a 6 month retroactive ban that took place during...wait for it...the off-season! What timing... She was banned retroactively from mid-October to mid-April; now that's what I call well played. What a sham.

She knew the potential of the ban. She could have continued to race and then the ban started the day it was announced and continued for 6 months.

I hope you're trolling with this comment. 'she seems about as home-spun as they get.' C'mon son. And your daughter really is just studying in the basement alone with her boyfriend...wake up! If you can give me a convincing argument on how you go from running 6hr 70.3's in 2014 to 4:30's in 2016, I will eat my words. Additionally, mid-35 with not even as much as collegiate sport on her resume...? But, hey. She's a nice gal (which from what I've heard, she's great). The system does go overboard, but it is to protect the honest people from getting hurt. When someone trains full-time (substance free) and loses big cash to a doper...now that is what hurts.

You guys have gotta start taking some time to research this stuff before you come out and verbal vomit your assumptions that really don't make any sense. You're killin me.

Ostarine is popular with the ladies because though it is not technically a 'steroid', it still delivers muscle gains and the benefits of certain steroids without the side effects that would deter most females (facial hair, balls, etc.) Osterine HAS proven to be very effective in building lean muscle (skipping other benefits) AND increasing strength as well as...wait for it...endurance; increasing them past the point of what your natural genetics are capable of. Another huge benefit for endurance athletes is that it increases tendon strength, ligament health and bone density. This = Recovery. For a female who is between the age of 30 and 40, it's very hard to build muscle and if you're body is taking the pounding of an endurance athlete, recovery is vital. If a SARM can cut your recover time in half...while building lean muscle and strength and endurance, you're gonna have some pretty significant increases if you can push out 2-3 hard workouts a week versus the 1 or 2.

So what if you get caught? And stop taking it? Well, if you continue to train hard after you stop taking Ostarine, you'll of course see some declines, but the gains that were not possible to achieve before taking it are still there. If you quit all together, then I would assume it'd become useless...but if you take Ostarine and train like a beast for 12 months and then stop taking it, but still continue to train...the muscle is still there and the benefits will live on. So if you're banned for using this substance for 6 months, but still continue to train through your ban, you will still benefit from the muscle build and endurance gains that took place while juicing.

How do people determine the subtle nuances you've described that are associated with these PEDs? How did you learn what you've shared?

This all seems very refined for underground and illicit activities.

I'm not challenging what you've shared, just niavely oblivious to the sources of sophistication at work behind the scenes.

Scott

THIS ^^^ Just because the athlete said oh poor me, why would I even take it when it gives no benefit to a triathlete? doesn't make it true. Far from it.

I am married to a high level professional athlete and a very honest one at that. Through being around the sport and self research from my own curiosity (at first I didn't understand what the big fuss was all about). When you hit a certain level of talent at a high level, everyone is so damn good and no one tests positive for anything because they don't take anything that would risk career suicide. You simply stay away from anything and everything...you don't even look at it; you also read the USADA banned substances list, print it out, memorize it, put it on the fridge, etc., and take it very serious. In professional sports like running, triathlon and cycling (which are all very tight knit groups at high levels aka they all know one another because they're racing together all of the time) even the best are barely scraping up the money to get by as a professional, so when something like this happens they take it very personal simply because it is wrong. It is cheating. There is no shortcuts. I witnessed a great athlete miss the Olympic team by 1 slot in 2012; and as it turns out the person who got the 3rd slot and made the team was doping. Can you imagine dedicating your life to something like this and how devastating that would be at the end of your career if that happened? To some people it's not a big deal, but I can promise you to the elites who have sacrificed their lives for their sport, it is a very personal issue.

Wow. realtalk. Calm down.
There is no one who despises cheating in any form than myself. But I also believe in fairness. And if these supplements are tainted then yes I will always stick up for the athlete.
And btw your comment on trolling. .. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean there a troll. Why can't you debate the topic instead of going after fellow posters. You seem to have real anger issues.

So all one needs to know is the batch number of a known contaminated substance (such as the batch # of the salt pills Lauren Barnett was taking) and then they can take Ostarine and claim it was from the specific batch of salt pills? I would think you'd need to have more evidence than a batch #.

Well then an unopened container of salt from that batch would need to show traces of the drug to prove it was contaminated....

Is this process that confusing?

Realtalk is spot on with everything in my opinion. Wake up, ST.

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https://twitter.com/mungub

Maybe you aren't understanding what I'm saying.

Let's say I get tested and have Ostarine in my system. If I know the batch number from the salt pills that Lauren Barnett took, which have been tested and contained traces Ostarine, I can just claim that I took salt pills from that batch. Sure, I'll get six months but that's a hell of a lot better than 2-4 years.

Until it happens to you (except that most of us are not good enough to be tested). No one disagrees the cheaters suck but there are so many that are either unable/unwilling to understand that sometimes an athlete can do everything right (print the 411 sheet out, eat clean, monitor, etc.) and still test for traces because of things outside of their control and even prove that. Whether people are unwilling to because they feel it makes their own inability to best that athlete, human nature that loves to see others fall from the top, or whatever reason, I feel for you.

Wake up? I am fully aware that there are cheaters but I'm not going to spend my life thinking everyone sucks because a few do. I don't have the time and energy to and if someone can prove their innocence, I can only trust that until they give me reason not to (not that my opinion should matter to them).

Guilty until proven innocent here and even after being proven innocent, still guilty because ST says so.

How much Ostarine was in it? Is that even enough to make a difference if you really didn't want to cheat?

I get what you are saying, but that seems more risky and time consuming than someone testing their own batches and then taking ostartine. Did they publish the batch numbers? Or would they have to ask that pro?

DomerTri-- that's a very fair point. And I agree. Unfortunately, in this case the athletes were proven guilty and it seems like most people are now defending them. I really, really hope that it was just a mix up, and that contamination caused the positives. However, with 4 female athletes now testing positive in the last year or two, I have my doubts.

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https://twitter.com/mungub

Guilty for having traces of the substance in their system but at least one being able to prove that the salt tab that was not identified previously as suspicious had traces of ostarine. I say traces but like most on here, don't actually know what amount that is. I'm giving benefit of the doubt to at least Barnett and feel bad for Beth as she likely was in a similar situation but didn't have a saved sealed bottle to test.

We just don't have enough information to rush to judgment but that isn't stopping anyone from doing so even though the info we have shows more innocence than guilt. There are always more details that can't be shared due to potential litigation but we all seem to think we are owed those details (and NOW) or they must be hiding something.

Honest question...

Would traces of ostarine coming from a cross-contaminated supplement be in high enough concentration that it would cause a positive test? I don't know the answer, or the tolerance levels involved.

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And I have the same question.