For a real swimmer, 35 seconds would be good for a 12 year old kid. I think the record was just broken a few weeks ago around sub 19 seconds. For a triathlete it is ok. Doesn't really matter anyway since I know of no races with a 50 yard swim.

The fastest I ever went was high 23 seconds but I wasn't a sprinter.

I would guess that is average for triathlon? My best in college was off a relay start, 21.03.

And let's finally settle this for all you non-swimmers. A lap is from one end to the other. In a 25 yard pool, a '50' is two laps.

Now you know, and as G.I Joe used to say, 'knowing is half the battle.'

[quote]And let's finally settle this for all you non-swimmers. A lap is from one end to the other. In a 25 yard pool, a '50' is two laps. [/quote]

No. A LENGTH is from one end to the other. A LAP is back to your starting point. In a 25 yd pool, one lap is 50 yards, one length is 25 yards.

-Colin

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

"How fast have you done 50 yards before?"



23.1 seconds

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Adrian in Vancouver

So when you run laps, that is half way around the track?

"Sports. To get ahead of (an opponent) in a race by one or more complete circuits of the course, as in running, or by two or more lengths of pool in swimming."

OTOH, the same dictionary says:

"One complete length of a straight course, as of a swimming pool."

Here, a dog takes a few laps in a pool:

Sorry. Eganski's correct. Ask anyone with a swimming background. One lap = one length.

btw 30.2 as a 10 yr old (in 1962)

for a 12yo that would be a good time for a 50 yds kick.

I'm not saying what makes sense (i.e a lap SHOULD be 2 'lengths')
I'm just saying what it is. And when you say a 'lap' is down and back, you look silly. Now you can at least 'talk the talk.' I'm just trying to help.

2 laps? a 50
4 laps? 100
8 laps? 200

Apology's are accepted, and don't wait for other swimmers to tell you you're wrong. If you try to tell a swimmer that 2 laps isn't a 50, you'll get laughed at.

Knowledge is power.

I think I swam a high 26 as a very medicre prep swimmer. Remember, off the blocks will get anyone out 1-2 sec. faster. A 100 is a better benchmark. I think I could go 57.5 or so. A 47 might get you a college scholarship.

Honestly, 35 sec. off the wall after a workout is decent and indicates you might be able to improve quite a bit: I swim under 22 minutes in Olympic distance races (which is close to a 60 min. pace in an IM I guess) and I can't go faster than 31 or 32 off the wall for a 50.

50 yard kick!?!?!? Damn.

At my best, in high school, I think I hit 30 seconds for a 50 yard "sprint". I guess that's why I'm drawn to the idea of "slowtwitch"!!

-C

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

That's what I thought until I saw the dictionary. Swimmers, being lazy, wanted to complete their workouts in half the time, and came up with this.

Hmm, interesting. I swam growing up, age-group to high school, and 50 yards was always 1 lap (in a 25 yard pool). Admittedly, I never had the smartest coaches!

-C

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

All those counters for the 500,1000, and mile can't be wrong. 1 lap = 1 length of the pool, so like eganski said, 2 laps in a scy pool is a 50.

The 50 world record was just set at NCAA men's met. The big frenchmen destored it at 18.74, first time under 19 (from a non-relay start). Then, just to prove it wasn't a fluke, went 18.90 in finals. WHOAZZER!

-bcreager

When I was swimming competitively 1 lap always meant 2 lengths of a 25 m pool.

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Adrian in Vancouver

And people wonder why many swim coaches are still stuck in the Stone Age in the acquisition of new knowledge. Perpetuating myths seems to be more important than knowing that we don't know everything there is about aquatic movements.

A length of pool was a lap...that was what your coach called it. So that's what you call it. Nevermind it's wrong.

I am a full-time swim coach, I come from a swimming background...and one lap in a 25yd pool is a 50. Now, if we're talking about a 50m pool...then a lap is 100m. My coaches called a 25yd a lap...I know better now.

Dave

Just curious...did you swim age group in Arizona? If so, was it with Charlie C?

Dave

From the US swimming website:



Lap : One length of the course. Sometimes may also mean down and back (2 lengths) of the course.

Length : The extent of the competitive course from end to end. See lap.



Maybe it's an east coast/west coast thing like calling soda, pop.

Trimike said for a real swimmer.

I can do 8x50yds on 1' in 45'' kicking and I CAN'T kick

So since you are spear-heading this change, i'm sure you've invented new lap-counters for people to use in high school and college for the 500, 1000, and mile?

Also, call Webster, cause he too is perpetuating a myth:

lap:

n.
A part that overlaps.
The amount by which one part overlaps another.

B One complete round or circuit, especially of a racetrack.

C One complete length of a straight course, as of a swimming pool.

A lap is from one end to another in swimming. That's just the way it is. Some things will never change. That's just the way it is.(insert piano here)

I think the lap/length debate has been a zombie equine since before Doc Councilman invented the pace clock. No one's ever going to agree on it, so if I'm talking about swimming, I always describe in terms of lengths or distance.



As for 50 yard free time, my best was a 26.9 relay split. For the women's teams I swam on, I wasn't considered to have much in the way of speed, but that was adequate for relay purposes if they needed someone for a 4x50 FR.

Sure did....how'd you guess???? He's still there at the Gauchos, that's where I did all my age group swimming from age 8 until college....its was like a second family

-bcreager

I'm confused. Doesn't your 50-yard time (be it lap or length) suggest a faster IM than 1:20? I sure hope so! I can't swim that fast for 50 but I'm expecting to swim a consistent pace and hopefully hit between 1:00 and 1:10...

Hell no...I know better. :-)

The lap counters are just fine...the numbers go up by 2 every time you turn it...so it's counting laps (2 lengths).

And it's not the "mile"...it's the 1650. 1650yds is not a mile. That bugs me too. I'm easily annoyed apparently. Must be the thin-skin. Dammit...need to apply more Armor-All.

Just doing my part to perpetuate confusion for non-swimmers. I don't have a Webster's handy, but the online (collegiate) edition has different definitions (and does not include C).

Come to think of it...why do we call it "lapping" someone...shouldn't it be "double-lapping"?

Dave "insert piano here too"

I was consistently mid 22's in 50 free in high school, and there was at least one faster sprinter on the team.

Definition of lap from dictionary.com:

"To wrap or wind around (something); encircle."

How does one length encircle?

Not a comment to you particularly...just crazy logic.

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Adrian in Vancouver

I coach in Mesa, and of all the coaches in Arizona, Charlie has got to be the most interesting to talk to on deck. Not to mention one of the most knowledgeable.

Your name is still in some of the meet records, and your name has come up a few times in conversations. I have a rather odd ability to remember partial names, although it took a swimming-type questions to jog it this time.

Dave

Chuck was by far my favorite coach for the reason you specified, most knowledgeable. When you asked, "why are we doing this en2 set", he told you, in detail. I loved the details of it all.

My brother and I got experimented on a lot when we were there (both bcreager, I'm Bill, he's Brent), new sets, new methods, the works, it was great. His coaching methods and my training style worked very VERY well together, fastest I ever swam!

How long have you been coaching at Mesa? Knew the old school Mesa coaches pretty well (Todd and Steve) since Gauchos had a mesa convert in Marvin.

-bcreager

Keep reading, AJ...

It's the mile damnit! We're not being 'technical.' If we were, it wouldn't be the 'Tour de France.' It would be the 'Tour de France, sometimes Belgium, sometimes Germany.'

As the pope said about The Passion of the Christ:
It is as it was.

a lap is from one end to another. Even dictionary.com says so, so they must be right, right? This debate is growing old, let's get back to whether or not Lance uses drugs.

My sister is marrying a Turley, who swam in Mesa. Do you guys know the Turley's? And he says a 50 is 2 laps! Damnit!

Im gonna have to say, as an American swimmer, a lap from one end to the other, aka 25yards. I agree with whoever said you would get laughed at if you said a 50 was a lap, unless it's a 50 meter pool. In college I swam with people from all over the country and they all said lap for a 25. Dictionary be damned.

As far as 50's, my best in HS was 22.4 and I never swam it in college. The best guy on our college team went 19.7, about 6 guys were 20.9 or better. Now my old team has a 19.3, 19.6, 19.9, and 20.2. Absolutely unbelievable. Auburn won this year's 200 free relay with an average of 18.9.

Definition of lap from dictionary.com:

Partial Credit for using a dictionary. Keep reading. See "Lap-2, Noun 2(b)". You cannot retake this test, but I can prepare another.

If you can hold that pace for 1.5K you'll be ok.

PR is 23.17 at age 32 (started at age 26).
My first 50 free ever in a meet was 26.59; can anyone top that?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"I'm confused. Doesn't your 50-yard time (be it lap or length) suggest a faster IM than 1:20?"

While there may be some small correlation from technique, you're talking apples and oranges here. One is a strictly anaerobic event and the other is purely aerobic. It's like saying that the World Record holder for the 100m on the track should be a hell of a Marathoner.

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"

hardly any correlation between 50 time to how you'd do in an IM swim. there are tons of distance swimmers i can beat in a sprint that would totally destroy me in an IM swim. likewise, i'm sure there are a good amount of sprinters who have no capacity to swim over a long distance. i wouldn't worry about what you can do for a 50, and focus more on holding a constant pace during longer swims.

ooops.

a 50yds is not strictly anaerobic

an IM is not stricly aerobic either

just for the record...

"a 50yds is not strictly anaerobic

an IM is not stricly aerobic either"


Yes...I was using a bit of "literary license" there...I should have known someone would have called me on it.

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"

I think a 35 is fine. I coach an 11 year old girl who just recently did a 33.5...for a 50 breast (perfect start and turns). But honestly, how important is this one effort (from the water, right?)? I bet if you worked on it you could get below 30 in short order (turns and starts are something you can work on that help time drop quick).

22.34 relay split at age 19 (nobody caught the false start!), but I was an IM and breaststroker, so I never swam 50 free again.

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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM

I guess we should be swimming with the 12 year olds. Maybe Tom's model will come swim with us??

I did 35 this afternoon on a fast 50 at the end of my workout. I missed my flip turn (trying to learn how to do those things) so I may have lost a second or two....

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TheBikeRacer.com

20.9 in college relay split. 21.4 standing (or bent over) start.

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fka: bassman

After the swim, I'm a fish outta water.

A whole bunch of you folks were very fast swimmers--for 50yards at least. For all of you folks under :30 for that 50 yards, how did you do in the 500 (back then) and where do you come out now in a non-wetsuit ironman?



On the lap/length issue--I agree with Jill. The debate rages on and there is no correct answer if usage is a valid way of defining meaning.

I was 4:44 in the 500 (that's 20 laps, not 10!) not too long ago, but seems like ages ago.

I've never done a non-wetsuit Ironman swim, but i'm usually around 50 minutes, depending on the conditions. Could probably be faster, I just don't put in the time.

I've been trying to lose this swimming weight actually, it's a tough load during the run.

500? Slow: I swam a 5:40 or so when I was 16. My great unattained goal when I quit at 17 and the one big goal I would have if I get more into Masters is to do a sub 2-minute 200. That is like the equivalent of a sub 5 min. mile or sub 3 marathon, or a sub 5 hour half IM or a 5-hour Century etc. etc. my list of average joe tri. goals goes on and on.

23.1 sec 50 yd.

Very little correlation between 50m and the 1500m unless you are a high mileage swimmer. My events were the 50m and 100m freestyle and I trained extremely low mileage per week. As a result I would die in the longer distances. In an Oly race I come out of the 1500m swim in about 19'30".

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Adrian in Vancouver

On 30K+ a week in the pool, my short course yards bests were:

Free-
50- 26.9
100- 58.7 (never really got to swim it untapered though)
200- 2:07.2
500- 5:41
1000- 12:00 (aaaarrrrggghhh! I wanted to be like 11:57 so bad)
1650: 19:52

back-
50- 30 high
100- 1:05-1:06
200- 2:22

In college, that would usually get me somewhere between 9th and 12th at MIAA league meet, which was pretty much an average D3 league.

Haven't done an IM distance swim yet, but these days I'll end up in the first 10 women out of the water at some of the smaller local races, and the top 15% or so at bigger ones. Lots of that comes from swimming smart and not letting conditions or other people bother me in open water. I think I'll average about 5K in season these days because my bike and run need the workout time so much more.

I think this is a transatlantic difference. Stateside a lap is a length. Over here in the UK a lap is a circuit i.e. two lengths.....

So why isn't a slower swimmer said to be "lapped" until the faster swimmer is two laps ahead? :D

IIRC correctly, in swim meets, the starter always uses the term "length" as in "100 yard freestyle, 4 lengths of the pool, step up on the blocks, take yer mark, BEEEP

Back in the day I was decent at the distance stuff. I actually breathed on 2s and had the same stroke rate for the 50 as I did for the 500.....I was a 400IM 500FR type of guy.

Free
50 - no idea, don't think I ever did it
100 - 47
500 - 4:31
1650 - 15:30

IM
200 - 1:55
400 - 3:56

haven't done an Ironman swim yet, just started this tri-game. Swimming is suffering these days too....stupid work gets in the way of doing 5 hours of workouts a day.

-bcreager

Back then I was under 5 once, and averaged somewhere around a 5:05-5:10 in season for the 500. I did a 17:00 for the 1650. About the 22 for the 50, it was honestly the most flagrant false start I ever got away with. I was a 50.8 for the 100, so 23.5 was more my speed. Breast and IM were my forte, and being short, I wouldn't have a chance most sprints against my 6'6" teammates, so I didn't swim 50-100 often. My best IM split is 55, but I haven't done one without a wetsuit, so I cannot tell you about it. Almost all those times were 20 years ago, the 55 IM is within the last 2 years. My fastest 500 in the last 3 years is a 5:17, I average more like 5:25-5:30. If I had done a IM swim back in the days of my youth, I have no idea what it would have been, but I would like to think it would have been faster. (I did an OLY my sophomore year ('84) and split an 18:02 for the swim, but the bike and the run made me forget how good the swim felt)

BTW the 1650 is 66 laps.

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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM

>And let's finally settle this for all you non-swimmers. A lap is from one end to the other.

LOL!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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"Race day is a celebration of your training"

"So why isn't a slower swimmer said to be "lapped" until the faster swimmer is two laps ahead? :D"

Why do we park in driveways and drive in parkways?

Cause that's just the way it is.....

I'm curious, for you guys that swam 100's in the 45 to 50 second range, for training, what would you do your 100 yd intervals in........let's for a set of 10? What would you come in on? What would you leave on?

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People I've loved, I have no regrets
Some I remember, some I forget
Some of them living, some of them dead
All I want is to be home ".....Foo Fighters, Home

My two "favorite" sets were as follows:

3x(7x100) on 1:07 with 2:00 rest in between (coming in anywhere between 1:00 and 1:06.

Lactate sets. 6 swimmers, 5 of which have to meet a prescribed time (mine was around 50.00, our 2 sprinters had to go sub 49.00) for the 100 to 'count.' We swam until we counted 15, if that makes sense. If only 3 or 4 make their time, the 100 doesn't count, and the team is still 15 away from ending the set.

That set was really shitty.

My real favorite set was 'sharks and minos.'

32 seconds - pushing off the wall - breast stroke in '79.

Never could break 26 seconds freestyle no matter what I did.

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Jay

most of the time we didn't do 100s, since it was the distance group. But when we did, we took 15-30s rest depending on how fast we were going.....or we did "wash out", which is what we called swimming until you can't make the interval. So we would do 100's, starting on the 1:30, then after 5, subtract 5 seconds.....so then 5 on the 1:25....etc.

Most of our sets were High Volume sets, 10 x 200, 5 x 500, stuff like that.....for most of this stuff, we took 15 seconds rest

In scy, for thershold (aerobic zone 2/3) I would hold right around 1:00 for the hundred. So 200 repeats would be holding 1:55-2:05, on the 2:15 or 2:20

-bcreager

I never broke 50 in the 100 although I never swam it shaved and only swam it in dual meets in college after swimming the 1000 and the 500. I did manage to swim a set of 10 x 100 on 1:05 in HS once, coming in between 1:00 and 1:03 during the set. But, I'm not sure how much of a correlation you would see between times during a set of 100s in practice and times in a meet. I could more or less keep up with the guy leading my lane in HS during sets of 100s even though he swam 45 flat in HS and 43.5 in college. Of course, when we were swimming really fast with lots of rest, he would be far in front of me.

My best 50 was when I was 15 when I did a 23.5 with a relay start during a summer league meet. We had about ten guys on my HS team that could break 23 so my coach never entered me in anything except the 500 in HS, and I never raced the 50 in college. I did kick a 50 in 31 once in college.

My best time for a 50 was 21.7. I was always a sprinter but one time I was picked as cannon fodder for a 500 against the guy that held every swim record for the other team. I was glad that he only lapped me once! He later went on to be an olympic alternate. My favorite set was called massive sprints. It was continous 25's but you had to get out of the water each length for a standing start, go as hard as you could and repeat with no rest. Try that for an hour and see how many you can do.

35 seconds off the wall for a triathlete isn't bad IMO. That 's fast enough that your IM swim could be a good deal faster. I can swim 30-31 off the wall, do 1500m in about 22-23min with wetsuit. Can break 30 but I need a dive to do it..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

times are from about 20 years ago



50 - 21,4

100 - 47.8

200 - 1.47.3

500 = 4.41.5

1000 - 9.38.X (1650 split)

1650 - 16:02.x

200 IM - 1:55

400 IM 4.08.x

after two years training I have gone 53.54 IM

Really for an IM swim it is not how fast you can go for 1 - 50, 100 or 200 - rather how fast a consistent pace can you hold for many 50s, 100s or 200s - combine that with some 2000 to 4000 TT.

swimming a quick 50 is fun - but really not what tri swim training is all about

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http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy

Yeah, I understand that -- I guess what I meant was, if someone can knock out a 50 faster than me or someone else, s/he must have better form and/or more power. So, with a little endurance training, which presumably this hypothetical swimmer is doing to race an Ironman, s/he should swim faster than 1:20 -- I guess that was my point.

Top 10 for the 50yd free this season for the 10&unders around here ranged from 29.8 to 31.3. My 8yo son did a 34.9 - his mom can beat him, his dad cannot.

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

I swam competitive (summer-only) from ages 13 to 15. This was low-level competition in neighborhood pools where the coach was whichever dad owned a whistle. My 50 scy PR was 28.1 at age 15. Hardly the stuff of real swimmers.

The best I have mustered up in the last few years was a 35 from a wall start (but I beat all the pro women, and half the pro men, at Ralph's in 2002, the last time I did proper swim training).

I'm working hard to get some of that mojo back before CDA.