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"long slow rides are a waste of time"
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as per this article:
http://www.usatriathlon.org/...ast-your-competition
but my read on Friel and Fitzgerald and others with the big books out (and what i have been doing), is they espouse the "do your slow rides slow and your fast rides fast" philosophy (and same goes for the run). For these purposes i consider a "slow ride" Z2. Most tempo/threshold rides i have seen in these plans never really do any significant mileage in Z4.

Is this debate old news? thoughts appreciated
thanks
SS
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Long, slow, short, fast are not very useful words around which to form any kind of consensus, or develop a training plan.


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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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If you're doing "slow" rides at 2/3 of FTP, that's a specific training stimulus. Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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I respect your opinion but can you respectfully leave the coffee out of this.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Long slow rides are one of the most enjoyable ways there are to spend a day.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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Quantum wrote:
If you're doing "slow" rides at 2/3 of FTP, that's a specific training stimulus. Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.

Nothing for anyone or nothing for you? I never do that type of ride due to time limitations, but it seems like it would do something - especially for folks newer to cycling. That being said, my impression from limited reading is that the Barry P frequency approach doesn't necessarily cross over to the bike. Different stuff going on physiologically, right?

Aaron Bales
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
Long, slow, short, fast are not very useful words around which to form any kind of consensus, or develop a training plan.

This times 856,732.

Had a guy ask me if I agreed that triathletes should have a higher, somewhat shorter swim stroke. I asked him higher than what and shorter than what, that ended the discussion. Too imprecise to be meaningful.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Whatever cardio or power benefit long, slow rides may or may not have, I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer.


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Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Jun 8, 11 18:07
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
Quantum wrote:
If you're doing "slow" rides at 2/3 of FTP, that's a specific training stimulus. Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.


Nothing for anyone or nothing for you? I never do that type of ride due to time limitations, but it seems like it would do something - especially for folks newer to cycling. That being said, my impression from limited reading is that the Barry P frequency approach doesn't necessarily cross over to the bike. Different stuff going on physiologically, right?
In terms of physical stress and training, unless you're very new at cycling, no, it won't do anything for you. There's nothing wrong with tour biking, but in the context of sport, doing a 5 hour ride at 16 miles an hour, assuming you're on relatively flat roads and putting minimal effort in, isn't going to do anything beyond maybe strengthening your riding muscles (ie back, neck, etc.)
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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joe fiels posts are a waste of time.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer

I'd say it's bc they trained wrong not b/c they did or did not ride their long rides in the aero position. Lack of fitness won't fix stupid.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer


I'd say it's bc they trained wrong not b/c they did or did not ride their long rides in the aero position. Lack of fitness won't fix stupid.


awesome. I now have a sig!!!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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sandtiger steve wrote:
as per this article:
http://www.usatriathlon.org/...ast-your-competition
but my read on Friel and Fitzgerald and others with the big books out (and what i have been doing), is they espouse the "do your slow rides slow and your fast rides fast" philosophy (and same goes for the run). For these purposes i consider a "slow ride" Z2. Most tempo/threshold rides i have seen in these plans never really do any significant mileage in Z4.

Is this debate old news? thoughts appreciated
thanks
SS

all depends on how much time you have to train. >15 hrs, you have to have lots of LSD as you won't be able to sustain the intensity of a tempo or SST/subthreshold. <8hrs, you better get enough training stimuli in each ride to see some meaningful adaptations. Vary accordingly when you have between 8 & 15 hours.

If my ride is less than 2 hours, i don't do Z2 as i can't get enough training stress in that amount of time. However, a five hour long ride is technically unsustainable at Z3, and i try to nail my LSD at the top of Z2 power. These rides are often solo efforts, and they'll hurt. There will be quite a bit of aerobic decoupling as my HR will drift 10bpm above its usual Z2 levels. Personally, i've turned into a believer. I built base through December and then did threshold work starting in January, but did few long Z2 rides. For all that, I went from 255W to 272W going from November to early April.

I got injured mid April and missed 1/2 of the remaining days in April along with 2/3 of May training days. I thought my FTP would plunge from 272 down to 250. Resuming three weeks ago, all i did were some tempo/SST but i made sure to have a long Z2 ride every weekend. Just this past Monday, i set a new 20' record at 292W despite not being so fresh as I did 243W for 35 min earlier that ride. Without having done any threshold work, I apparently regained all of my previous FTP and then some more. Mark me down as a believer.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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You mean >30? Spending 8-10/15 week at z2 sounds like a waste of time to me

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
all depends on how much time you have to train. >15 hrs, you have to have lots of LSD

if someone is training about 18 hours per week, roughly 10 of those hours will be cycling, in a fairly balanced program. No need to poke around looking a every crack in the road if you are riding 10 hours per week.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [meuf] [ In reply to ]
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As we often say in emergency medicine, "there is no cure for stupidity" :)

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer

I'd say it's bc they trained wrong not b/c they did or did not ride their long rides in the aero position. Lack of fitness won't fix stupid.

Or because they have a shit position. Or both...


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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [boilerup] [ In reply to ]
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aren't you the guy who works with my buddy Coby? the tarpon are ripping down here this year.....let me know if you guys come down. for the first time n a long time it's like the old days.....catching not fishing.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
Long, slow, short, fast are not very useful words around which to form any kind of consensus, or develop a training plan.

Similarly, so are terms like "waste of time" unless you know what the ride goals are.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
You mean >30? Spending 8-10/15 week at z2 sounds like a waste of time to me
I agree up to a point. If the 8-10 hours are divided into 4-5 rides, those z2 are almost worthless as nothing is likely stressed enough to force adaptation. However if those 8-10 hours would be divided into two weekend rides in order to maximize aerobic adaptations, at high Z2 intensity of 0.70IF, 8-10 hours gives 560-700 TSS points, which i'd say is quite considerable (at least to my 4.0w/kg FTP slow ass). Then again, this is purely for base and early build periods.

If i ever get the luxury to train 15 hours, I'd do 9 hours on the weekend at high Z2 and 6 hours in a mix of SST and tempo. Below 15, the hours of SST+ tempo becomes comparable to hours at Z2. When i was doing 12hrs, it was just one weekend Z2 (~5 hours) and a ton of SST + tempo. However, i don't think this built wide enough a base for me.

desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
all depends on how much time you have to train. >15 hrs, you have to have lots of LSD


if someone is training about 18 hours per week, roughly 10 of those hours will be cycling, in a fairly balanced program. No need to poke around looking a every crack in the road if you are riding 10 hours per week.

sorry for the confusion. I was referring to bicycle only training.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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AND because they have a shit position.

Fixed that for you

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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I'm confused, obviously. How fast are you supposed to do your long rides? Or should you not do them? I would think going fast and long would take time to recover from.




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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Jiowa] [ In reply to ]
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Jiowa wrote:
I'm confused, obviously. How fast are you supposed to do your long rides? Or should you not do them? I would think going fast and long would take time to recover from.

I'm doing tempo work at between 22-26mph (Depending on wind, hills, fatigue, etc), and my long ride is 4 hours at ~ 18-20 mph. I'm on a very similar schedule to what dd described, about 16 hrs a week with 9 of it on the bike.

John



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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
at high Z2 intensity of 0.70IF, 8-10 hours gives 560-700 TSS points,

I've got over 1000 power files and can't recall a single week where someone even if scheduled 8-10hrs at high z2 got in 560-700TSS by riding 8-10hours at high z2. When you see what they are actually doing with traffic lights, cars, dogs etc, to get >560 TSS you are going to have to do intervals.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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sandtiger steve wrote:

Is this debate old news? thoughts appreciated
thanks
SS

If you ride lots of "long slow rides" you will get very good at riding long ... and slow.

Training should reflect race demands.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
However if those 8-10 hours would be divided into two weekend rides in order to maximize aerobic adaptations, at high Z2 intensity of 0.70IF, 8-10 hours gives 560-700 TSS points,

8-10 hours at .7IF = 392-490 TSS
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [boilerup] [ In reply to ]
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boilerup wrote:
As we often say in emergency medicine, "there is no cure for stupidity" :)

yeah in primary care we say that too!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Long, slow distance is fundamental in any program, in my opinion. However, I think most people misunderstand what "slow" means. It's relative. Think of "slow" compared to how fast you are capable of going vs. what you think is slow in general terms. Long, slow rides should be a zone1 or zone 2 effort. For some people that might be 15 mph or slower. But for some that may be much closer to 20 mph (or faster). To some that may not seem like a "slow" ride, but when compared to how fast those people are capable of going it is a slow ride.

Personally, I hate the term long, slow distance because it's misunderstood and people think it means they need to putz around all day putting out very little effort. A long ride in zone 2 is a hard effort. If you go long enough in zone 1, that can be a good effort too.

I biked 1,000 miles in May. 70% of my time was spent in zones 1 and 2. 20% was tempo. 10% was threshold or above. I finished the month (Memorial Day) with a slow 150 mile ride (by "slow" I mean it was a low zone 2 effort which ended up being a little more than 18 mph). After a few days of recovery, I set a new PR on my 20 minute threshold test.

Long, slow distance works (especially if you're training for an ironman), but it needs to be part of a balanced program that includes some harder efforts.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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Quantum wrote:
Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.

Really? The above sounds like a very good time...

I know enough to know I don't know enough...
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [uberslug] [ In reply to ]
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uberslug wrote:
Quantum wrote:
Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.


Really? The above sounds like a very good time...

agreed - this sounds exactly like the sort of thing that will keep me enjoying cycling, and thus keep me coming back to my bike to do the tougher stuff that provides more aggressive training stimulus. if cycling is all lonely suffering, i become more reluctant to put in the time in the saddle.

cheers!

-mistress k

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Setting aside the precision issue (per other posts, replace 'slow' and 'fast' with specific HR or power zones), there are very well understood and established reasons to do long rides in Z2 (as well as long rides w/ lots of Z3 intervals, and shorter rides w/ Z4 intervals, etc) not least because you need variation in training to force the body to adapt (the root of the "make easy days easy and hard days hard" mantra), but also because long, steady Z2 workouts build blood volume, which makes the Z4 stuff more effective, and allows you to recover from the Z4 stuff more quickly.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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JollyRogers wrote:
8-10 hours at .7IF = 392-490 TSS

One hour at FTP is 100 TSS points. One hour at 0.70% of FTP (IF of 0.7) is 70 TSS. Eight hours give you 560.
desert dude wrote:

I've got over 1000 power files and can't recall a single week where someone even if scheduled 8-10hrs at high z2 got in 560-700TSS by riding 8-10hours at high z2. When you see what they are actually doing with traffic lights, cars, dogs etc, to get >560 TSS you are going to have to do intervals.

fair enough, there's often 45 or more minutes worth of stopping time when i do a 5 hour ride (also from stop at café, etc). But it is possible to accumulate that much TSS for the moving times. Let's do a conservative estimate and say i get 350TSS on Saturday and 150 TSS on Sunday from 7 hours of moving time, i can still do 3x2 hours at Z3 to accumulate 120 points each day to push the total over 800.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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fail.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:



One hour at FTP is 100 TSS points. One hour at 0.70% of FTP (IF of 0.7) is 70 TSS. Eight hours give you 560.


One hour at FTP IS 100 TSS points; one hour at 0.7IF is 49 TSS points.

While I don't live and die by TSS, people who use the term should at least know what it is and how to use it

TSS = [(duration in seconds * NP * IF)/(FTP * 3600)] *100

to reduce that equation, NP/FTP = IF so,

TSS = [(duration in seconds * FTP^2)/3600]*100

In other words, one hour at 0.7IF is just less than half the training dose of one hour at FTP.
Last edited by: JollyRogers: Jun 9, 11 15:20
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't there a squared term?

TSS = IF^2 * Time (hours) * 100


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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [trijedi] [ In reply to ]
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trijedi wrote:
Isn't there a squared term?

TSS = IF^2 * Time (hours) * 100


JollyRogers wrote:
echappist wrote:



One hour at FTP is 100 TSS points. One hour at 0.70% of FTP (IF of 0.7) is 70 TSS. Eight hours give you 560.


One hour at FTP IS 100 TSS points; one hour at 0.7IF is 49 TSS points.

While I don't live and die by TSS, people who use the term should at least know what it is and how to use it

TSS = [(duration in seconds * NP * IF)/(FTP * 3600)] *100

to reduce that equation, NP/FTP = IF so,

TSS = [(duration in seconds * FTP^2)/3600]*100

In other words, one hour at 0.7IF is just less than half the training dose of one hour at FTP.


opps, i stand corrected re: the calculation. my previous FTP wattage wasn't nearly high enough for me to see the difference. With a new FTP of 280, the difference is actually becoming apparent, and i was wondering why the TSS from my 2hr Z2 ride on Tuesday was lower than my 90min high Z3 ride.
Last edited by: echappist: Jun 9, 11 15:28
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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waste of time? not if you have the time....

Anyone who thinks riding 30 hours a week at zone 2 is a waste hasn't done it.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Zone 2: 56-75%

I would agree that 4hr at 70% is not a bad ride. But if we are talking 56-65%, then yes it is a waste of time. I think Zone2 (by AC) is really a bad range. From my training it seems that better ranges would be:

Recovery: 0-50% - no more than 1hr ride
A: 65-75% - Long Ride / Extra Miles (most training that isn't one of the below)
B: 80-85% - 1-1.5 Tempo Ride
C: 90-95% - FTP Intervals / Extended Climbs
D: 100-105% - Shorter 5-10min intervals
E: 120% - vo2 intervals
F: 150% - anaerobic intervals

A for long rides and when you are

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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Do you like Dr. Phil's Apollo performance manager? Does he use some sort of 30s averaging in his work calculations? I have had no luck with TSS and was thinking of trying something new. I was thinking of using the impulse model with 'normalized work' as the input - NP * ride time. This *could* be what Apollo does but I don't remember. That way I don't have to keep entering in an arbitrary FTP that may or may not match my fitness at that point in time.

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Last edited by: msuguy512: Jun 9, 11 16:11
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Do you like Dr. Phil's Apollo performance manager? Does he use some sort of 30s averaging in his work calculations? I have had no luck with TSS and was thinking of trying something new. I was thinking of using the impulse model with 'normalized work' as the input - NP * ride time. This *could* be what Apollo does but I don't remember. That way I don't have to keep entering in an arbitrary FTP that may or may not match my fitness at that point in time.

well, there's always TRIMP, but cardiac drift is a whole nother can of worms to deal with
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Well I would think my muscles respond to the amount of work I am doing. They don't divide that work by a factor to come up with an effort level. The more work I can do the more fit I am.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Well I would think my muscles respond to the amount of work I am doing. They don't divide that work by a factor to come up with an effort level. The more work I can do the more fit I am.

Define "fit" and "work."

Being able to ride 60 miles in z2 is "work." Being able to ride 1 hr @ FTP is also "work."

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
and i was wondering why the TSS from my 2hr Z2 ride on Tuesday was lower than my 90min high Z3 ride.

Physiological cost is exponential as intensity increases.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:

Define "fit" and "work."

Being able to ride 60 miles in z2 is "work." Being able to ride 1 hr @ FTP is also "work."

both are work genius, try riding 60 miles in z2 every single day
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [PIGsmasher] [ In reply to ]
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PIGsmasher wrote:
Power13 wrote:


Define "fit" and "work."

Being able to ride 60 miles in z2 is "work." Being able to ride 1 hr @ FTP is also "work."


both are work genius, try riding 60 miles in z2 every single day

LOL...try working on your reading comprehension, "Einstein." That was exactly my point.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Fit - fitness, aerobic capacity
Work - F*d

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Fit - fitness, aerobic capacity
Work - F*d

Exactly....the point being that there are variables. To imply that doing 60 mile z2 work is not "work" is kinda silly,

There are differnt types of "work" and "fitness", usually dependent on goals.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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to no one in particular...

TSS does not equal training impulse
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Well I would think my muscles respond to the amount of work I am doing. They don't divide that work by a factor to come up with an effort level. The more work I can do the more fit I am.

i think the muscles do divide the work by a factor. time.
if you run a mile in 5 minutes they will respond differently than if you ran that mile in 15 minutes. same amount of work - one mile - but different response.

'fit' is a very relative concept but it's not as simple as 'the more work i can do'. i think fit is dependent on the goal or objective. a lot of people can do more work than others, but are they more fit? not always.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Do you like Dr. Phil's Apollo performance manager? Does he use some sort of 30s averaging in his work calculations?


I haven't used Race Day, but it uses a 25s exponentially weighted rolling average to calculate xPower. I believe that NP uses a 30s exponentially weighted rolling average.

I also think that Race Day and WKO+ treat stops differently when computing BikeScore/TSS.
Last edited by: JollyRogers: Jun 10, 11 8:30
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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I interpreted the article to read: long slow rides as part of a brick workout are generally a waste of time.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [PaulS] [ In reply to ]
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Do you guys ever just get on you bike and ride for the fun of it?

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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Yes.


Fortunately I enjoy seeing how much I can torture myself!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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last tri in 83 wrote:
Do you guys ever just get on you bike and ride for the fun of it?


hell yeah, did that last night! whats more fun than dropping the whole cat4/5 field ?






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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Mike wrote:
Whatever cardio or power benefit long, slow rides may or may not have, I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer.

Great point.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Jiowa] [ In reply to ]
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Jiowa wrote:
I would think going fast and long would take time to recover from.

...That's what she said.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
last tri in 83 wrote:
Do you guys ever just get on you bike and ride for the fun of it?



hell yeah, did that last night! whats more fun than dropping the whole cat4/5 field ?



Is that the Jackmott fan club behind you in the 2nd pic?
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [miwoodar] [ In reply to ]
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miwoodar wrote:
Is that the Jackmott fan club behind you in the 2nd pic?

Nothing on this earth is more important than the local cat 4/5 race. It is bigger than the superbowl, and every single one of those people know who I am.


none of this is true



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
last tri in 83 wrote:
Do you guys ever just get on you bike and ride for the fun of it?



hell yeah, did that last night! whats more fun than dropping the whole cat4/5 field ?

But, did they stay dropped?

BTW, put some socks on so you don't look like some tri-geek out doing a crit ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Warm up lap?
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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/compression/ socks.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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But I *AM* a tri geek doing a crit. My damn jersey says "Austin TRI-Cyclist" and I am riding a TT frame.

;)

they stayed drop for the whole prime lap which is all I was after.

maybe next week I will go for the race win with a similar approach after the 3rd prime....

but don't tell nobody



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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Pooks wrote:
Warm up lap?

there are no warm up laps in Texas. we go all out from the gun.

there's real gun too, with bullets. they shoot the guy in last place each lap.

again, none of this is true



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
But I *AM* a tri geek doing a crit. My damn jersey says "Austin TRI-Cyclist" and I am riding a TT frame.

;)

they stayed drop for the whole prime lap which is all I was after.

maybe next week I will go for the race win with a similar approach after the 3rd prime....

but don't tell nobody

How far (long) is the 3rd prime from the finish?

If you take that approach though, I suggest NOT actually trying to win the prime, but use the guys actually going for it as a "launching pad" for your break...and after the initial gap, try not to drill it SO hard that you blow up...remember, you've got to be able to average the same speed as the pack solo (plus another 0.5-1mph due to the speed ramping up in the later laps) to stay away ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:

How far (long) is the 3rd prime from the finish?

it varies, 2 or 3 miles probably?

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If you take that approach though, I suggest NOT actually trying to win the prime, but use the guys actually going for it as a "launching pad" for your break...and after the initial gap, try not to drill it SO hard that you blow up...remember, you've got to be able to average the same speed as the pack solo (plus another 0.5-1mph due to the speed ramping up in the later laps) to stay away ;-)

yes, exactly. follow the front guys going for the prime, THEN go.

then pray for lack of motivation in the field for a while!


unless, the third prime is really dumb and nobody wants it, then attack the lap before and maybe they let me go because they think I am just going for the prime..

HMMM



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Last edited by: jackmott: Jun 10, 11 8:51
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
there's real gun too, with bullets. they shoot the guy in last place each lap.

Damn, that's a hard core Miss-and-Out
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
hell yeah, did that last night! whats more fun than dropping the whole cat4/5 field ?

Wow, the cat4/5 field!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [zone_V] [ In reply to ]
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
jackmott wrote:
But I *AM* a tri geek doing a crit. My damn jersey says "Austin TRI-Cyclist" and I am riding a TT frame.

;)

they stayed drop for the whole prime lap which is all I was after.

maybe next week I will go for the race win with a similar approach after the 3rd prime....

but don't tell nobody


How far (long) is the 3rd prime from the finish?

If you take that approach though, I suggest NOT actually trying to win the prime, but use the guys actually going for it as a "launching pad" for your break...and after the initial gap, try not to drill it SO hard that you blow up...remember, you've got to be able to average the same speed as the pack solo (plus another 0.5-1mph due to the speed ramping up in the later laps) to stay away ;-)

I can tell you from experience...attacking so hard that you blow up is, ahhh, really painful. I'm an expert at it! However, I am pleased to report that I have typically been overaggressive rather than underaggressive. :)

Ding ding ding on sucking wheels behind a late prime. Last weekend it got me into the winning break by accident. I looked back a half lap after the prime and the peloton was taking their sweet time closing the gap, asked my neighbor if he wanted to go for it, and off we went.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [miwoodar] [ In reply to ]
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miwoodar wrote:
Ding ding ding on sucking wheels behind a late prime. Last weekend it got me into the winning break by accident. I looked back a half lap after the prime and the peloton was taking their sweet time closing the gap, asked my neighbor if he wanted to go for it, and off we went.

Must not have been a Cat 4 race...from my experience, when that happens in a 4s race, the other guys just look at you like a dog trying to figure out a noise...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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last tri in 83 wrote:
Do you guys ever just get on you bike and ride for the fun of it?

Fun is riding fast and having endorphine kicks out of it. Riding slow is boring ( I don't like going for walks either, and I would not consider a 5h walk a good way to improve my running). I just get cold, hungry and bored if I ride slowly. Long rides as close to aerobic threshold as possible, and when we ride with my friends we keep 5-7 m apart, not drafting.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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More likely, that picture shows the peloton giving lots of room to the guy with a "triathlete" jersey, no socks, riding a TT frame (with deep section wheels for a cat4/5 crit to boot?!) Nobody wants that wheel!!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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>>BTW, put some socks on so you don't look like some tri-geek out doing a crit ;-)

It's the Alejandro Valverde look, and a good one at that.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [dongustav] [ In reply to ]
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of course you want that wheel!

that wheel will pull you along for as long as you want!

dongustav wrote:
More likely, that picture shows the peloton giving lots of room to the guy with a "triathlete" jersey, no socks, riding a TT frame (with deep section wheels for a cat4/5 crit to boot?!) Nobody wants that wheel!!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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BTW...that P2K is a pretty sweet lookin' crit bike. How's that working out so far?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
BTW...that P2K is a pretty sweet lookin' crit bike. How's that working out so far?

its great. I've now done 2 crits, a circuit race, and a road race. Had a fun bridge-attempt on a steeeeep downhill with dangerous curves at the bottom and lived in the road race =)

handles great!

Its got about 2.6cm of spacers, and having only 1 water bottle attachment is a downside for sure.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Marcus] [ In reply to ]
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Marcus, is your middle name Intensity?

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Tom A. wrote:

BTW...that P2K is a pretty sweet lookin' crit bike. How's that working out so far?


its great. I've now done 2 crits, a circuit race, and a road race. Had a fun bridge-attempt on a steeeeep downhill with dangerous curves at the bottom and lived in the road race =)

handles great!

Its got about 2.6cm of spacers, and having only 1 water bottle attachment is a downside for sure.

One word: Racebak

Plus, you can fill it with ice (or freeze the bladder) for those REALLY hot days. Take out the back pad and help keep your core cool ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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last tri in 83 wrote:
Marcus, is your middle name Intensity?

yup.thanks for asking.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [ In reply to ]
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I feel sorry for anyone who gets bored and can't occupy their own mind on a long ride.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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First of all I can't believe were talking about this again. What's it been like 3 or 4 months since the last time? Secondly, why would anyone want to ride slower than triathlon race pace? Isn't that slow enough? How can anyone expect to ride fast in a race if you never ride fast in training? I'm not saying ITT everytime your on a bike but I think triathlon (any distance or at least the one your training for) race pace should really be the slowest and you should do some hard efforts to increase your threshold. Do work people come on!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Doitagain] [ In reply to ]
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fastinnerhtml!
I don't know what you mean. I never get bored riding long rides,because cycling is the best thing I know.that said,I do get bored riding slowly,because in my opinion,that is not cycling at all.that's just spending time.working on a sun tan.socializing.occupy my mind..I'm just not the daydreaming type.I do 90% of my typical 3-5h rides alone,and when I do ride with friends we rarely talk at all during the ride,because we are focused on the training at hand.
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