I am new to swimming and for me the hardest part is the breathing. Do you exhale in between the two breaths when your face is in the water or only on the third stroke?

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Swim, Forrest, Swim. Bike, Forrest, Bike. Run, Forrest, Run.

Exhale each time. You want (and have time to achieve) a full breath each time, even though you are breathing to successive sides, then holding one stroke.

Gary Sr.

GO!

I may not be new to swimming, but I am to editing.

Gary Sr.

does this really work when say swimming a mile?

As a former competitive swimmer, I can't seem to wrap my mind around this.

When would you suggest using this breathing pattern? On long open water swims? What about in a race, say a 500 freestyle? During masters practice?

Thanks.

Gary what's your experience with teaching this to novice / less experienced swimmers?

I can see that you manage to breathe 2/3 and hold a decent body position (at moderate pace) but it seems to me that for less proficient swimmers who know less about their body position / core it might be a recipe for disaster (the old snake / sagging mid section problems).

thanks.

Go...GO!

Sorry, I didn't catch your post earlier this year, so I'm still giddy that some one of your celebrity is giving ST swimming advice. I feel like I should be bragging to my friends, but the general(non-swimmer) populace doesn't understand...

My coach in college used to brag that he got to swim against you and Spitz during his career. He also talks about the Titanic a lot though, so you never really know what to believe.

lol breathing on the right then left immediately after, no thanks.

Gary Sr.,

As you know, the "see what I do to get more oxygen" should read "more ventilation" as one with normal gas exchange does not increase oxygenation (PO2) by simply increasing respiratory rate.
Any improvement in swimming with this "2:3" technique is not brought about by a change in respiratory physiology but rather swimming mechanics that are altered with the changed breathing pattern.

Regards,
Kevin

Looks like Finman´s swimming technique has come on a bunch.

Only kidding. I´ve been working on this technique since Mr Hall Sr. mentioned it in a previous thread. I find it particularly useful when I´m a bit out of breath after a flip turn - but that might have soemthing to do with my glacial flipturn technique.

One other bit of advice from Mr Hall Sr. that I have found particularly useful is the ´keep an imaginary orange between chin and chest´ to keep ones head down in the water.

I for one am particularly grateful that an international recoginized coach like GHs takes the time to give advice on a forum.

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX

A lot of people have problems with any stroke that counts to 3 before breathing again, even the 2:3 stroke. In practice, I train only the 2 stroke, but do different sides each set. This way, I get my breath when I can and still have the ability to switch sides in competition.

To each his/her own. :-)

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Coach Pete from Joe Gold Endurance
coachjoegold@gmail.com
2010 Vermont 100 Ultramarathon: 28:09:15

Most folks on the forum can't race in Zoomers, and don't have a smooth enough stroke to accomplish what you are showing. As a fellow Olympian, I always promote a breathing pattern that is comfortable for the swimmer. Many prefer 2 stroke, and many struggle breathing bilaterally.

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http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

Dear Jeffsab,

This is not a technique for sprinting or shorter events, say 200 or less. I use this pattern now routinely on any swim over a 200. I am not aerobically very fit, but I can sustain a much better pace with this technique than I can with a normal 1:2 breath pattern. I particularly like it for open water, so long as a wave isn't coming from one side.

Gary Sr.

Dear Kevin,

If you truly believe that, then try breathing 20 to 30 times per minute on your all out run or bike. Increased ventilation does make a difference....and not in technique. Breathing in freestyle and butterfly are detrimental to body speed by increasing drag or slowing the stroke rate, or both.

Regards,

Gary Sr.

Dear IntheHunt,

One other thing on the exhale, when you do hold for one stroke (ie the third stroke), keep your breath in as long as possible, then do a forced fast exhalation prior to the next breath. When you alternate breath (one side then the other) you don't have time to hold your breath....just breathe, exhale, turn and breathe again. One of the hardest parts of this breathing pattern is also keeping your head down when you go from one side to the other.

Gary sr.

How does changing respiration rate not change oxygen uptake?

I remember Gary writing about this earlier (last winter maybe), and I certainly was skeptical. I have tried it though, and it seems to benefit my high-intensity swimming (anecdotal, of course).

While I'm not sure it helps much swimming 100s, it does seem to help a lot swimming hard 200s (under 3min sendoffs).

As for the physiology, the increased ventilation should benefit oxygen availability. it is not impossible that a swimmer would desaturate arterial O2 during hard swims, so the extra ventilation would help increase oxygen availability. Runners have been tested to desaturate at high intensity, and those guys (or gals) can breathe as much as they want!


A word of caution though - the first few times you try to breathe 2:3, you can get a bit dizzy. It took me a while trying this to do it without feeling nauseous. It seems to help to try during slow swims (where you don't have to move your head as fast to get to the other side).

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mckenzie

I get a Thought of the Day from a friend of mine and today's quote is particularly appropriate for this thread.

"Tradition should be a guide and not a jailer" Somerset Maugham

Gary Sr.

I just tried this and totally got a headrush...I think I imight stick to 1:2 for longer swims. This breath pattern might be better for those with really efficient strokes, but I know (being a newbie in the water) that my breath strokes are slower and less efficient than my non-breath as it brings my body out of balance and I lift my head too high. I'll give it another shot though, because I always seemd to feel oxygen deprived in the water, which makes me really erratic, and stressed and puts the heartrate through the roof! thanks for posting the vid!

Gary, have been using the pattern since you posted again about it a few weeks ago. Love it! Seem to be able to do my 2 mile swims a few minutes faster, and not as tired. I am sold.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I am firmly in this camp. However, my Olympic experience is limited to going around the country and telling people, institutions and motels that their 25 yd pool is not "Olympic Sized" just because someone saw an Olympian swim in a 25 yd pool once. It is a full time job.

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http://www.bobswims.com/

"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

I'm completely confused by the video. Can someone explain to me the breathing pattern.

It looks more like 1:1:2:1:1:2:1:1:2:1......

Does it count as Olympic sized if you have to go around the corner and up the kiddie ramp to get 25m? Our county commissioners assured us it was.

The video Monty posted of the Beijing Olympics (triathlon) shows the lead guy using this pattern; it's a bit clearer in that footage.

I think practicing with a Pull Buoy first would be my preference, so I can forget about my legs.

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29 years and counting

2:3 means 2 breaths for every 3 strokes. Push off the wall. Breathe on stroke 1, breathe on stroke 2, hold breath on stroke 3. Breathe on stroke 4 and 5, hold on 6. Repeat.

Or

Breathe as follows: Left, right, hold. Right, left, hold.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I tried this my last swim and had to play around with head position to lock in. I'm not sure if my head moved down or just got steadier, but I went from gulping water to no problem, breathing got easier and steadier. Seems like doing a couple 200+s to sort things out worked better than 100s, as well as starting pretty fresh going into the rep. My n=1.

If you have to hold good head positioning to make this work, maybe for an AOS this would force good habits and effectively work as a "breathing drill"? I'm curious if you've had success with relatively poor-mediocre swimmers (>2:00/100) being able to (1) master this, and (2) improve their speed as a result.

Thanks for posting! -J

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Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne

Just so you guys know, this a 10 year old thread that someone dug up and reposted. So probably not likely you will get a response from Gary, but maybe? But here is a thread I just put up recently where we are talking about the pattern, and I have put up several videos of what it looks like, as well as a lot of converts chiming in with their experiences.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread

Hey Monty, Nice to be back! Long hiatus....but I'm back. Been busy trying to figure out what makes swimmers fast...or not so fast. We have some great new technology to learn from.

Anyway, I am glad that many triathletes around the world are using the 2:3 breathing pattern, including Shane Reed. Didn't realize he did that in 2008..but obviously worked for him. Not sure it makes any swimmer faster, but am sure it makes swimmers feel a whole lot better getting out of the swim. Old farts like me even go to a 3:4 pattern. Ancient and not very good aerobic systems (like mine) love that oxygen...and getting rid of the CO2.

I have a learned a lot since jumping off Slowtwitch....so if you want to pick my brain, what little there is of it, go at it.

Thank you for watching our videos. Glad you like them. We are very proud of their quality and content.

Gary Sr.

Why not just breath every stroke?

this being slowtwitch, I feel it needs to be said:

"who is this Gary fellow, and why should i believe that he knows anything about swimming?"

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Look at Post #31: The Thread owner also does 3:4.

lol. Exactly. Next, somebody will suggest he join a swim team or just train by watts instead of HR.

Since the post years ago, one thing I have changed is that I no longer recommend that you keep the air in your lungs before burst exhaling before the next breath. Instead, trickle some air out of your nose (not mouth) after planting your face back in the water and the bubbles will flow under your chest.

In Florida, using a Drag/Propulsion Meter, while being towed at 2.3 meters per second, we found that the air bubbles under your body will reduce frontal drag by 9.3% compared to holding the air in your lungs. You will not reduce buoyancy significantly when the bubbles are under your body, but you will reduce frontal drag by altering the medium you are moving through. Cruise ships do this along their massive hulls to improve fuel efficiency and Emperor Penguins do this in the Antarctic to escape the hungry Leopard seals. Virtually every elite freestyler, breaststroker and butterflyer does the same.

At first you need to think about doing this, but eventually it becomes habitual.

Gary Sr.

Is that 9.3% an accurate percentage for the average triathlete swimmer? That seems huge! Imagine dropping your CdA on the bike by 9%... As far as "free speed" goes that is certainly some fantastic returns.

9.3 % reduction was based on passive drag position (streamline) and way faster than you are swimming. So no, you are not reducing drag by 9.3% but you are reducing it by something....and that matters.

Gary Sr.

nice to see you "resurfaced" here ;-) always nice to hear your wisdom.

on the consecutive breaths topic, which in my case is entirely due to reading what you've written, i've migrated to a riff off the 2:3. i'm not saying that it's optimized or preferred or recommended. it's just what i find myself often doing, including and most obviously in open water. instead of 2 consecutive breaths its 3. i end up on the same side. and by consecutive you know what i mean. 3 breaths in 3 strokes.

there's no pattern to it, as in, it's not every so often. it's just when i need more O2, when i feel the need, then it's breath-breath-breath. when i'm gassed in the pool, i'll do the same thing in the middle of a length.

i'm nobody to be giving swim advice. but i blame you anyway (!) because your wading to this idea of consecutive breaths gave me license to learn the skill that allows me to do this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You and I are in the same boat, Dan. I love the 3:4 pattern and once you get used to it, it is easy to do. I just do it all the time in OW...or even on my aerobic sets in practice. BTW, there is a masters swimmer (can't recall his name) in his 70's who has WR in distance events and breaths every stroke...not every cycle.

Nice to be back.

Gary Sr.

Sure, but, what qualifications do you have to be making such claims?

;-).

Still probably one of the best threads of all time.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Hi Gary for fly and breast, I assume you exhale continuously when head in the water such that by the time your head is up, there is no more air to breath out? And for the entire head in the water phase its continuous bubbles versus holding the air in for part of the stroke

Hey Paul,

No, just let some of the air come out of the nose after each breath, then burst exhale, quick inhale during the head turn. We don't come close to taking a full breath, either in or out. Just an air exchange. Some CO2 out and some new O2 in.

Gary

Thanks for the pro tip...I have a big set coming up in two days...goal is 10,000IM (will start with as many 400IM's as I can, and then go down to 200's for the rest so I will have the chance to practice this "riding on bubbles" in three strokes).

Dev

Gary Sr,

Just retried the breathing pattern today and really liked the feeling of extra O2.

Found a 3:3 pattern ideal coming out of the flipturn... I also did a 2:2 pattern immediately after doing a 3:1; great way to always do a three stroke breath pattern always leading from my stronger side (right).

Great advice, thank you!

Awesome! glad it helped.

Gary Sr.

Hi. It seems like a lot of pro swimmers breathe extra going into the flip turn. Occasionally, I will pop my head up (as if I was sighting) just before I flip to gasp enough air to get a nice streamline and kick off the wall (so I don’t pop up in 3 yards gasping for air). My coaches used to berate me for my head pop but it didn’t seem to affect my times so I stuck with it. I’ll try 3:2 into the wall to see if it gets me the same air going until the turn.

But my real question is: how much power in terms of push off and dolphin kick should I be giving off the turn on 50s and 100s? What about longer distances like 500s or 1650s? I seem to post faster times when I can get a strong push and dolphin kick off the wall and get 8-10 yards + underwater. So long as I have the air to do so.

Thanks.....

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Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/

ahhh, the ol' "i'm dying into this wall in the last few 100 of my 1500m" breathing pattern!

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Yep! Always good to check if your lifeguard is awake from time to time by appearing to be gasping.
If it leads to a little mouth to mouth...so be it!

On a 500 or longer swim, breathing twice consecutively or even three times consecutively into and out of turns is a great idea. Shouldn't slow you down much or at all. As for dolphin kicks off the wall, depends on dolphin kick speed vs freestyle speed. test yourself with all out 25 of each. if less than 1 second difference, stay down as long as you can (in a 500 that is still usually 2 kicks and up). If between 1 and 2 seconds 3 or 4 dolphin kicks to breakout (in 200 or less). If over 2 seconds 2 kicks and up for any distance....unless you are over 4 seconds slower. Then don't do dolphin kicks. just use flutter kicks off the wall. BTW, start your first up kick immediately off the wall...no gliding. It is faster.

Gary Sr.

OK I thought I should be gliding off the wall for a bit before starting my dolphin kick but you're saying push off and immediately up kick? Sounds like a plan. By the way "riding on the bubbles" was awesome today. I finished my 25x400IM set 3 minutes faster than my target (lane swim was 3:30 cut off time and I knew it was going to be tight and I got done in 3:27). In this set, I was doing zero dolphin kicks off the walls for free. I just glided to around 7m point and rested as much as I could. I will try two dolphin kicks with an immediate up kick the next time I swim the 1500m free.

I also do (or have done) the sighting coming into the flipturn. I too find that the extra O2 is well worth it...

BTW, how does one manage to dolphin kick off the wall without going into hypoxic narcosis?!? In another life, I will be able to do that....

Why nose only, not mouth? Is it because only through the nose do the bubbles head south under one's chest? Very curious about this!

Thanks in advance

Am I reading that correctly you did 10,000 yard/meters of IM?

Yes 25x400m IM SCM (dammit I earned those meters vs yards). It's been a two year long project since I managed to do my first 400IM without drowning in 2017.....just been trying to transform from life long runner to swimmer now.

Wow simply amazing!!! So impressive

I’m trying to get my horrible swim times, in HIM, faster.

What does training like that get you for time in HIM races?

Wow! I am impressed. I recall my love/hate relationship with 10 x 400 IM LC meters on 6:00. It was got me ready for WR times...back in the day.

Start up kick immediately off the wall with not too much knee bend on the subsequent down kicks. It is faster...yet harder than the glide.

Gary Sr.

I will try the upkick right off the wall. How many dolphin clicks for fly and freestyle should I target in a 400IM (all out race, not a long crazy set like today).

Also back to the breathing pattern, would it be faster on the breast leg in an IM, or in a 200 breast to do three short breast stroke cycles into a wall rather than two to get extra oxygen before a massive push off, dolphin kick and pull out? Also you mentioned blowing out bubbles through the nose....why not mouth....another person asked but is it because the nose bubbles stay closer to the surface of chest versus blowing out with mouth and sending the bubble perpendicular to the swimmer path. I COULD feel the bubbles rolling down my chest breathing out from mouth.

One of the best back-door-brags I reckon I've seen.

Yes.

BTW, can someone explain following two expressions to a non native english speaker resp. common triathlete who just swims sometimes:

-"25x400IM" (are these yards or metres and what does "IM" mean in this context)
"lane swim 3.30 cut off time".

Not sure in this case if it’s meters of yards

IM means individual medley. So 100 of back, 100 of breast, 100 fly and 100 free. 3:30 means 3 hours and 30 minutes.

Thank you.
But 3:30 is too little for 400m and too long for 100m???? So what does he mean with "lane swim?"

Sorry for the diversion. I was keenly following this thread as I wanted to use some of the technical items for a year long goal set of doing 25 x 400 individual medley (100 fly-100 back-100 breast-100 free in a short course meters pool vs long course meters or short course yards). The public lane swimming window when the pool was open was 3 hours and 30 minutes long. After that it was ending, so I had a cut off time to get it done or not. I think the extra breathing on the free was very helpful as was blowing the bubbles and riding on them. I did not dolphin kick much off the walls during free and fly leg, I just used a very tight streamline to come off the wall well past the flags (and thereby rested doing zero work). On a 400IM race, I would like to try the upkick that Gary Hall Sr is suggesting.

Thanks for explaining. Now even I understand.
Very impressing. I stick to crawl. At least in this life. Never more than 4000m.
But I'm practising this 2:3 breathing and it could be ok for me too, having air as limiter in swimming.

Thanks for posting this Gary.
Monty posted this technique last year (2019) as useful coming out of turns. I never tried it as I did open water turns in the pool (too lazy and didn't want to go anaerobic for long sets) so I never tried it.
Now I have.
It's good.
I get the extra O2 (great for building up strength in shorter sets without going into the red) and the bubbles (reduced drag) explanations for going faster but there's another reason for why it's better that hasn't been discussed that is food for thought.
I felt, when using it, that the impulse from rotating the body as the hand enters the water (at the same time the head rotates back to the midline as the breath is completed and the body begins to rotate) that there was a very strong platform for the pulling arm to stabilise against. The momentum of the rotating body was effectively doubled which meant 2 out of three pulling strokes were against a very strong counter rotation.
In short this is so good I wished I tried it earlier when Monty discussed it.
It does require good technique though and the ability to breathe bilaterally efficiently. I can see lots of sore necks if the upper body is not moving with the head!
Cheers Gary and I hope we get more tips from you.