I do think your case is quite unusual, and the reasons for the lack of observed link might be different to those for the average person. I believe that 5 sec power has a large technical element, much more so than FTP, and it may be that your amputation has primarily reduced your technical ability to deliver high power.

Have you done leg presses in the gym before and after the amputation? I can't actually think of any reason why a below the knee amputation would reduce someone's leg press strength, which is normally done with the foot flat against the plate, hence the calf muscle isn't engaged.

I'll give another anecdotal experience, this one is an N=2. I have a friend who has tremendous aerobic capacity. He holds the GB record in his Masters age group for 800m and 1500m freestyle, and is a faster distance freestyle swimmer than me, approx 90 seconds faster over 1500m. If we run on two treadmills at the same speed and gradually ramp up the pace, his heart rate is 30bpm lower than mine at any given speed, and I'm at my limit when he is barely trying. However, I can leg press approximately twice the weight he can, and can absolutely crush him at cycling. He says that he doesn't get out of breath at all when cycling, it's just that his legs hurt like crazy. So my anecdotal experience from that tiny sample is that his cycling ability is limited by his very weak leg strength.

Fitness is exercise modailty specific to the joint angles and velocities involved. Strength is not his limiter. It's not riding a bike very much that's his limiter.

As far as technique goes, how come some untrained cyclists are well know to be able to develop very high peak power on a bicycle, yet have not learned much in the way of technique?
A: because it's more about muscle fibre type makeup than it is about technique. Fast twitchers are born that way.

Even in sprint cycling, there is a limit to how much strength is actually useful.

As far as my own strength goes, well ~14 months of enforced no weight bearing on one leg does tend to see your leg waste away somewhat. Moving weights with a prosthetic leg is not as simple as it might first seem. I have no ankle and there is an awful lot of things the ankle enables you to do. Even on a leg press you need your ankle joint to move. My prosthetic foot does have a moveable ankle joint but it is not controllable - it just goes with the forces applied to it and the range of flex is limited. The prosthetic is also force rated to a limit of 120kg. Also, all forces are now transmitted via the skin, not via the skeletal system and that creates major comfort issues at times.

I have tried a leg press, and well all that did after half a dozen presses with no weight on the machine was cause injury to my stump. So even if I wanted to, I would need to consider many things before embarking on such activity. there are solutions of course if I felt it was important enough, like getting another $12,000 leg specially made to deal with such demands, but you know, it's much better to ride a bike in order to get better at riding a bike... so I had a bike leg made instead.

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Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio

You're one to talk.

While you might believe that, it isn't true - indeed, many times the individuals with the highest 5 s power measured on an ergometer haven't ridden a bicycle since they were kids (if then). For example, Ed Coyle has a nice video clip that he shows in talks of one of the U Texas women volleyball players nonchalantly climbing onto the erg, cracking out >1500 W, then climbing off and walking off-screen w/o even a grimace.



Well aside from possible pain/injury, one reason might be that the gastrocnemius is not only a plantar flexor but a knee flexor, and as such helps to redirect the forces generated further "up the chain".

To reinforce that point: variations in strength between track cyclists only account for ~50% of the variation in how long it takes them to cover the first 25 m - about 3 pedal strokes - from a standing start.

IOW, even in the closest thing in cycling to, e.g., a clean-and-jerk, factors other than strength are just as important in determining performance...

No pre data, but I have posted my SRM torque data here previously.[/reply]VO2 max is a pseudomeasure (as you know) of the size of the exercising muscle mass.[/reply]

Exactly the opposite is true: VO2max is independent of the size of the exercising muscle mass. That is why, for example, you can have someone running up a treadmill started also performing arm cranking, and their VO2 does not increase.



That doesn't necessarily hold (see above).



No, I would not, and neither would any other exercise physiologist worthy of the title.

I'm not comparing my trained cycling performance to his untrained cycling performance. Even untrained I'm much better at cycling than him, along with having much greater untrained leg strength.

Some people are naturally better coordinated, so may have better technique without having to learn it. If it's mainly genetic, though, how is it that when I first obtained a power meter, I couldn't break 1000W for peak power, but 6 months later I have recorded a peak of 1237W? I'll add that over the same period my 60 second power has improved from 478W to 606W, and that is undoubtedly not due to technique improvements. My FTP has only improved 11% in the same time, despite my training being primarily aimed at improving 5 min to 60 min power rather than 5 sec to 1 min power.

I've had another thought on this whole subject, though. Consider the WKO+ athlete profile. If everyone's profile were flat, there would be a perfect correlation between 5 sec PWR and 60 min PWR. As this isn't the case, the best 5 sec cyclists must have a downwards sloping profile, and the best FTP cyclists must have an upwards sloping profile, and the gradient of the slope must be steep enough to mostly (possibly even entirely) cancel out the relative profile "height" differences between athletes. My own profile started off as upwards sloping, but has become pretty much flat with training. This may have caused me to underestimate just how much some people's profiles can slope. E.g. Chris Boardman, from the power figures given for him in this thread, and his performances from hill climb competitions to the hour record, must have been right up at the top for 5 min to 60 min PWR, very high for 1 min PWR, and right down at the bottom for 5 sec PWR. Chris Hoy was mentioned earlier in the thread - does anyone know what his power output is for durations greater than 5 seconds?

TBH i can't recall exactly what Boardmans 1-min power was, but i think it's modest (at a world level for a pursuiter)

yes, i know what Chris Hoy's power are for 5-secs up to 1-hour. I'm not at liberty to say, but i can tell you that i've worked out what power i could sustain when an average RRer and compared that to Hoy's for riding up Alpe d'Huez. And like i said, i'd have been able to spank him up d'Huez by a long way, as my power to mass ratio is (was) significantly better than his.

ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

We are so deep into the thread that I assume this HAS to have been answered by now. But in case it hasn't:

In 2000 I could squat about 375 lbs. I will contend that year that I had stronger legs than Longo. If not, then I know that I can certainly content that I had stronger legs than Greg Watson who could ride 26 mph in a long course duathlon, and I can also certainly contend that Arnold Schwarzenegger had stronger legs than Longo. Neither of us can outride Longo. Why? Because SINGLE REP MAX STRENGTH is irrelavent to events that require 1,000s of reps in a row at less than 15% of max rep strength. It is *completely* irrelavent.

What it takes to be a good *endurance* cyclist is the ability to put a force so tiny on the pedals that any of us can do it, but to do it for 1,000s of reps. Strength would only be relavent if you had trouble doing a single rep in the first place.....and if you do, call 911 ASAP!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

For the same reason marathoners don't do heavy squats and spend workout days doing all out explosive 50 meter sprints with parachutes and weight vests on. They already have enough leg strength. Adding more doesn't help. What they need to be able to do is take the more than adequate leg strength they already have assuming they aren't wheelchair bound, and train themselves to do it over and over and over again for 1,000s of reps while learning to convert energy more effeciently in their bodied so that they don't get tired.

Or analogously, better spelling might make you a better lawyer, but most law students can already spell well enough so why waste time in law school maximizing your ability to spell. Likewise, if you can jog, your legs are already "strong" enough.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I can't take wading through this thread anymore. Believe it or not, it's time for my weight lifting workout. I'm doing squats today.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

What data would I like? I would like to see before and after emg data showing whether muscle use patterns have changed before and after and I would like to see pedal force patterns. I simply do not believe that someone at your level can lose part of a limb and make up for it in one area by simply "trying harder" and not be able to do the same in another. It makes no sense to me physiologically or biomechanically. So, show me the proof what you say is true. All I said is you are guessing as to the mechanism to explain the numbers you are seeing. Your explanation might account for some of the observation but I doubt it can account for all you are seeing.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I don't think anyone is contending that strength alone will give you a high cycling FTP. At best, people might contend that it can make a small contribution. The question is not whether someone who can squat 400lbs will have a higher FTP than someone who can squat 200lbs, the question is if someone who can squat 200lbs and has an FTP of 350W, which has been static for years, were to increase their squat to 400lbs, might that enable them to improve their FTP to 352W, say, after further appropriate training?

The reason why I'm suggesting the link is <1% is that there are swimmers who have won Olympic medals without ever having lifted weights. Most swimmers seem to do weight training anyway, but even those who don't, seem to eventually try adding weights to their regime when they can find no other source of further improvement. Whenever I've heard of a swimmer starting a weights regime having previously not done so, I've never noticed such a swimmer taking more than 1% off their times. Of course even 0.5% is a huge improvement in swimming, you're talking about a quarter of a second in a 100m swimming race which can easily make the difference between Olympic gold and no medal at all.

So the statement that person X could squat Y lbs but only had an FTP of Z watts is pretty irrelevant to the question of whether improving strength can contribute to such a tiny change in FTP.

Re your squat of 375lbs, I was looking for information on how much weight the strongest females can squat, and I came across this page about a female amputee who can squat 365lbs:
http://australian-bodybuilding.com/...ts-365lbs-165kg.html
While she was stronger before the amputation, it seems she only lost her leg a year before that, so perhaps she will get closer to her previous strength in time. Impressive stuff, as is Alex's case, too, course.

I agree that a normal bka should have little effect on leg press strength and little effect on overall cycling ability.

There is a huge difference in a bka and aka in the muscle mass lost for cycling. And, those who belittle the technical aspect of pedaling at both high and low power simply don't nderstand the possibilities. Let me give a N=1 anecdote. Sara Rheinertson, now there is a lady with a cycling muscle mass problem. AKA combined with congenital leg issue. Despite being a great athlete, in her first attempt she did not make the bike cut-off at Kona. Soon after that I met her at an expo and got her on PC's. It took her about 3 minutes on the bike to figure out how to ride them (which I thought might be impossible for her). So, we got her training on the PC's and the next year she took an hour or so off her bike split.

Regarding your swimmer friend it may simply be he has weak quads, especially from an aerobic perspective, limiting his ability to ride a bike. Again, without more than anecdotal data everyone is guessing as to what is going on.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

It would seem to me that the gastroc contraction, which tends to flex the knee, might not be of much benefit "up the chain" when one is trying to extend the knee. You might be right but I would like to see some data.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Huh? I have theorized mechanisms to explain the PowerCranks data we have. I have never said I know it to be true or that other mechanisms could not be present. We need data to better explain what we see. In this instance people are putting out explanations as true and discounting alternatives without a any supporting data.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Then, I would suggest his cycling problem involves some cycling biomechanical (or as you alude below) coordination issues. How well does he run?

This natural coordination issue is what sets the fast kids apart from the slow kids in grade school. Of course, the really fast kids tend to gravitate to running careers. Why would it be any different in cycling? I guess one might argue it isn't as important but to argue that it plays no role is just nonsensical to me.[/reply]

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

He is better than me at running. My guess is you were right the first time and he just has very weak quads. Andy and Alex will say it can't possibly be the bottleneck, but I can't see any other explanation. He demonstrably has similar if not better aerobic capacity compared to me, but less strength. I do think he would be an interesting test subject if I could get him to do some cycling training for a period, and we could see what happens to both his FTP and leg strength.

Congratulations on being one of the few around here who understands one cannot know for certain what is going on without adequate data.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

This is an absolute pearler.
Made my day.

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Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio

Obviously you disagree. Please show me some data to convince me I am wrong.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Well Frank, you'll just have to take my word for it that I try as hard as I can when I sprint, and that's the power I generate. "Trying harder" ain't gunna get me another 300 sprint watts.
In 2009 I probably did 50-60 track specific sessions or races where I tried pretty hard, but obviously I'm not trying hard enough in your eyes.

This is not to say I won't be trying to improve. Of course I will but being a crafty sort of racer I will be finding other ways to win given my significantly changed power profile, like I did on the weekend.

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_________________________________________________________________________________
Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio

In 2000 I could squat about 375 lbs. I will contend that year that I had stronger legs than Longo. If not, then I know that I can certainly content that I had stronger legs than Greg Watson who could ride 26 mph in a long course duathlon, and I can also certainly contend that Arnold Schwarzenegger had stronger legs than Longo. Neither of us can outride Longo. Why? Because SINGLE REP MAX STRENGTH is irrelavent to events that require 1,000s of reps in a row at less than 15% of max rep strength. It is *completely* irrelavent.

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First of all, congrats on your squat.

Second of all, I never mentioned anything about "max rep strength." It means nothing to me. I've never attempted a max squat - I don't care squat about what I can squat.

I merely contend that strength, as it relates to cycling, plays a part in one's success - as do lots of other things. As it relates to cycling, strength is not irrelevant.

BTW- do you have the contact info for Haile Gebrselassie? Based on what I've learned here - I think he has a legitimate shot at the Cycling TT World Champs.

JR

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

My point is if you recovered all of your FTP power by "just trying harder" and none of your 5 sec power there must be an explanation beyond "trying harder". There has to be an explanation as to why you were able to recover one and not the other. I haven't heard one yet from you or anyone else that makes any sense. Edit: Perhaps you don't feel secure with your prosthetic when you are sprinting and that is, somehow, inhibiting or changes your technique to something "safer" but less efficient. There has to be an explanation.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

The explanation is pretty much the central theme of this entire thread: that leg strength has an influence on neuromuscular/5 second power, but not on threshold power.

The fact that this explanation is lost on you certainly isn't surprising to anyone.