In hindsight, "loser" was a bad word choice.. to quick with the key pad, my fault. Disappointment of the lack of integrity given his prior statements is more accurate.

Anyone know when the B sample results should come back? How long does that take?

[/quote]

Vaughters is a smart enough guy to know the prevalence of doping within the sport. He chose to market his team a certain way, has been rewarded handsomely for doing so, and so should be able to take the inevitable lumps that come his way. Maybe JV should refocus energy on internal testing and less speaking to the press about his clean team? As I mentioned above- I always speculated 'the team folding with a single positive' was marketing and would not actually be taken seriously if there was a positive. This confirms the marketing part. If the $$$ backers behind the team were *TRULY* for clean cycling, I would expect to hear their reaction, but instead we only hear crickets. Silence from the financial backers, indirectly supports a team that has doper(s), in my mind, as they must view a positive athlete, still okay for financial gain/marketing dollar gain. As in the L.A. saga, it wasn't only until L.A. was viewed as toxic waste, that his sponsors finally folded their hand and went home.

TD's results arguably have been better after 'giving up' doping. Lastly, JV has been the one making all the claims about his team and how they operate, not anyone on ST. The air of superiority is definitely one direction.

For years Lance had his shtick to the media, until that house of cards collapsed. No one truly knows who is clean or dirty except themselves.

Thing is - "100% Clean" is basically Slipstream Sports' entire raison d'être. According to Vaughters (way back when he started the team), that comes before winning or being competitive or anything else. This was what was supposed to make the team different from all of the others - voluntarily doing stricter internal testing than what the UCI was doing at the time, etc. etc. And that was what Vaughters was selling to the sponsors. Yeah, the whole team and staff is full of ex-dopers and that's an entirely separate issue, but the whole point of Vaughters' vision was that they were doing to ride clean. They may fail to get any meaningful results, but at least you knew their performances were genuine.

So given that - how in the world does he let something like this happen? Especially after crowing about how sponsors will leave the team if one of his riders tests positive? Has anyone had a worse year than Vaughters? Once Slipstream loses their facade of 100% Clean they're basically just another middling small-budget ProTour team with little to differentiate themselves and sell to sponsors.

Danielson said that he found out the news via phone call during dinner with the team. I would like to have been there to see what their reaction was.

How do you expect Vaughters to stop it? The only thing surprising about this is that TD is the first to fall off the wagon--or at least the first the public knows about.

I will give a partial answer for how he might have prevented it. Someone I know says that Slipstream stopped its internal testing program a three or four years ago. I don't know if that is accurate, but my cynical self noted that was about the time Slipstream begain winning some very big races.

Well Vaughters has said that Slipstream was different because their team had:

- Zero-tolerance for doping, strict internal testing, introduction of bio passport, et al
- Team culture where riders would not feel pressured to dope

I'm not making any judgements about the practicality any of the above or saying that I actually believed in any of it, but that's what Vaughters has been selling since the inception of the team. Also what was implied was that the entire team and all of the riders buy into his vision of 100% Clean. Vaughters is so confident of all of this that he goes around saying that the team will close shop if anyone tests positive. Now obviously Danielson is an idiot for doping and getting popped and he is responsible for his own actions. But a reasonable person would also say that if Vaughters wanted to be 100% Clean you shouldn't be hiring numb nut ex-dopers (who are still doping) and who evidently don't care about your vision.

So apparently there is no love lost still between these two. Pretty sure LA is bigger asshat here, even if JV isn't keeping his word.

1. 
   Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 7h7 hours ago
   Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.
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2. 
   Lance Armstrong ‏@lancearmstrong 2h2 hours ago
   @Vaughters those good people would be better off without you.
   

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Suffer Well.

How did you pull a hamstring? On the powercranks or bionic runner? What happened to the dramatic, world is ending, post about your season being over? Was that just a desperate plea for attention?

Maybe you wouldn't be injured if you had a coach or followed ST advice (ie proper, proven training advice)

An empty threat is still an empty threat. Choosing to not honor the past statement in any way (he could have at least TRIED to fold the Slipstream portion of the merger) sends a clear message to any rider still on the team. "If I get popped, it won't cause the team to disband, no matter what sort of agreement I had to sign at the outset of this."


It's kind of like when a parent says "If you two don't stop fighting this instant, I'm going to turn this car around and we are all going home."

The moment they realize you aren't actually going to do it, it's game over. Even little kids can figure that out.

On balance, I'll take JV over most of the establishment within pro cycling. While he runs his mouth and is inconsistent and hypocritical, he at least he's had the balls to try, and to try to be candid and transparent. Come up short? Yeah. But he's taken a shot at it, probably effected some change, and if not for JV, who would have filled that void? Mostly these guys are all trying to preserve their positions in a break even business, sucking up to sponsor money and not making waves. Cycling is full of too cool for school. Generally chickenshit.
Plus, he's a snappy dresser.

You just keep poking the crazed narcissist bear with your pragmatism stick and watch what happens!

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Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

"The docs clearly make money by getting folks to use, so they push it"
Dave,
I do not think that the motivation of most Drs that prescribe testosterone is just to make money. I think they are usually treating symptoms. I do think that testosterone is being pushed inappropriately, without full consideration of the risks. And it is banned in our sport.

Are you saying that your doctor sent a testosterone level as part of routine testing? Then talked to you about T supplementation??
I would not consider that to be appropriate care., and I would look for another doctor if that's what happened.
What kind of doctor are you seeing, and just how did you enter into this conversation?

Paul

My favorite Tommy D clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXxvdhE1zFc&feature=youtu.be


It's at about :24...and I'm 99% sure Hummer knew exactly who she was.

You just made my day with that clip (yes, I'm a hater.). Thanks.

---

http://www.jt10000.com/

Based on the questions one gets asked about ones healthy, being older, most of use would qualify for T stuff.

Why not have T level testing being done with all the other blood work I am having. Makes sense to me.

And when my levels cames back low, him talking about T stuff made sense to me.

So, I am not seeing my doc not doing things correctly. After I brought up racing, he never talked about it again.
My T levels still are on the very low side, but that is the way it is.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Although TD admitted to first doping in 2005, Steve Tilford on his blog post says his entire career was fueled by doping, going back to his first big victories- his collegiate victories in 2001. In 2002,
he crushed the Estes Stage Race- including winning a 40 minute TT by nearly 5 mintues!


Mercury's Danielson On a Roll! By Janna TrevisanutDate: 6/15/2002
Estes Park Cycle Race, Estes Park, Colorado
From Team Mercury Press Releases
Thursday 13 June - Glen Haven Road Race
Mercury's Tom Danielson won his second consecutive stage Thursday in winning the 87 mile Glen Haven Road Race stage. The 5 day stage race ends Sunday.

The day did not start out well for Mercury as they missed the breakaway and had to chase back a group that threatened the lead of Danielson. Most of the work was done by Leon Vogels and Jesus Zarate as the team waited for the final climb to blow apart the field.
With Moninger and Wherry as his guide, Danielson took off in the last few miles to take the win solo, with Moninger taking 2nd and Wherry 4th. Andy Bajadali, who took 3rd, has emerged as the main threat to Mercury.
Danielson's victory was the 51st win of the year for the Mercury Cycling Team.

Friday 14 June - Trail Ridge Time Trial
Mercury's Tom Danielson took his 3rd consecutive stage as he crushed everyone in today's 12 mile uphill time trial at the Estes Park Stage Race (2600 vertical feet).
Danielson's time of 39'28" was over 4 minutes better than his second place teammate, Chris Wherry. Danielson has over 6 minutes in hand with 2 stages left.
Results: Stage 3 12 mi Time Trial
1. Danielson, Mercury 39.28
2. Wherry, Mercury 43.58
3. Bajadali, Excel 44.05

Shocker upon shocker that TD went to Fort Lewis College where he was coached by Rick Crawford.

lance's teenage age coach?

Yes. And Levi's, too.

Doping college kids. Classy.

LOL, what a d-bag.

Awesome. Man, I hope Hummer knew exactly who she was, that would make this perfect.

So the cycling "press" are just going to let this go. Cyclocross pedals! Look at Phinney's cute haircut! He got third in a 4th tier race!
You have a doper build a team around clean cycling (by hiring a bunch of dopers), states several times that if there is a positive it's game over. Turns out his strength of character is the same last time he made the easy decision when Lance Made Him Do It. The really messed up thing is that this was THE chance. He could have called it a day, shopped his MBA around and gone out a hero and changed the sport forever. Instead it's more of the same. It is disappointing, but not surprising.
At least the other endurance sports are clean.

"The docs clearly make money by getting folks to use, so they push it"

Dave,

I just don't see that you really have support for the above quote.
There are some doctors that are out there for the money, but most want to improve the health and well being of their patients.
I do think that the whole low T testing/treatment is misguided.
Sounds like you had an appropriate discussion with your doctor.

Paul

I've had a crossing with one of those types or at least it sure seemed that way. I went to a urologist in my area a number of years ago out of concern of my prostrate after using heavily over 10 years of competitive bodybuilding. The doctor did a blood test and called me back in to discuss my low "T" levels. I was pretty sure my natural levels were impacted from using constantly over the years and I was approaching my late 40's at that time. I let him talk me into using Androgel, but I felt conflicted by using it. I don't compete in anything so that wasn't the problem, but I had a lot of other issues out of my former use. It was like treating an alcoholic with alcohol. Plus the Androgel seemed very ineffective for the cost out of my pocket since my insurance wasn't covering it. Then I let him talk me into using injectable oil base T and finally the conflicted feeling I was having I did not finish the remainder. At the next annual check he asked me about it and I told him my concerns about my prostrate and other things. At that point he starts going into marketing hype but because I was a former black market dealer, user and long history with this topic most of what he said wasn't true. I did not confront him on the deceptions and just went on my way. A few weeks later I started getting pharmaceutical pamphlets in the mail from his office about other forms of delivery, such as, pelletized slow release T implanted under the skin. (Edit: I should have never let this doctor talk me into using T. I guess part of me still remembered and was hanging on the glory days.)

This falls under your "some doctors" category. I am sure many would not do this or at least I hope they would not.

One of the reasons, as there are a number of other reasons, I stopped the T therapy is that I get to speak one on one with athletes in my area on occasion about using for performance. It is super hypocritical for me to be using a "therapy" dose and talk to them about the cons of using. When I started using and selling through the 80's and 90's it was not that many guys and gals actually using in comparison to today's times IMO. I have more typical husband/father types that approach me with questions than ever before. Unfortunately I find that about 95% of the guys that approach me at first ask me how they can ask their doctor to increase dosage or where they can find a black market source in order to increase dosage.

On a different note, I would give this advice to anyone competing clean. This is coming from a former heavy user.
Never look outward to competition (as in who is going to show up and are they clean), but instead look inward to do your best and look upward to where you would like to go. Where you place following a good effort in training clean is to be appreciated and believe me you will sleep a whole lot better with a clean conscience. I've met many guys and gals that started innocent, but in time they let their paranoia of who might be using ease them into a false justification of why they need to be using as well.

Most I have met that started or considered PEDs started because of paranoia. "I would train clean if they would train clean, but I can't even place because I believe they are on something and without using so I started using."