Good summary on the age group front.

I am absolutely certain that the number of people going faster in 50-54 today than we were doing in 40-44 ten years ago, is not just linked to the growth of sport, better training and "more drafting". I am more than certain there is a lot of "outside assistance" at play. All the fast pros and age groupers from when were were 30-34 are slower now at 50-54....then you have guys coming out of relatively nowhere and making big gains in their late 40's and early 50's. It defies logic. I can see getting faster on the bike due to equipment and maybe more dense courses with intentional and non intentional drafting. Swim and run time improvements are very very suspect.

But I bet you the guys doping will be done and falling apart in a few years. But they won't care. They will have a spent a few years at the top of the sport, stroked their egos and moved on to the next thing. When pro times don't get faster over a few decades and older age groups get faster and faster and faster (while pros moving into those age groups get slower), there is something wrong.

There is also very likely a group of older age groupers who are doped and THINK they are legal because their doc prescribed the medication. Their doc has no clue about competition/WADA rules and they intentionally don't want to really find out. They kind of know they are doping but justify it to themselves as "Doc's orders".

Amen.

Kevin Moats didn't fall apart. He'd still be competing in WTC and doping like a fiend if he hadn't gotten caught.

Don't believe that dopers are necessarily "ruining" their bodies. There's quite a few of them out there that know what they're doing and can sustain it for awhile.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

You may wanna ask some of the old WWF / WWE stars what they think about that statement.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Doping has changed a lot in 30-40 years.

You can't compare the crap that the older wrestlers did to themselves with what an AG triathlete can today take legally under a doctor's care to boost their performance.

Not the same.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Ftfrst wrote:

I remember the guy who got popped at Gran Fondo NY was quotes as saying the EPO and whatever he was doing was ~$1200/mth habit to be the Cat 3 phenom that he was.

Here's the article. Good read to understand the slippery slope

LOL.....you may wanna review that post and see if you can find the fatal flaw in your logic.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I was talking about AG'ers. ;)

LOL yourself.

You can't compare pro wrestlers' doping experiences of the past, to the average AG tri athlete doper of today, to make the point that triathletes are ruining their bodies with doping.

The types of drugs, quantity, and knowledge of long term effects of different drugs and drug combinations have changed. Getting regular T injections under a doctor's care for "aging" issues does not necessarily carry the same health risks as gobbling handfuls of Dianabol.

Hope I cleared that up for you.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Age group bike racing like age group triathlon is NOT big business. Master's racers have been getting popped pretty regularly for the last few years since USAC started testing extensively at masters nationals. But that's because they've been testing masters cyclists. I can probably count off 10 to 15 guys that I personally know who are over 40-45 who've been drug tested at bike races over the last five years. I've been tested 5 (FIVE) times. All since I turned 50 in 2011. A number of triathletes seem to live in the fantasy world where triathletes don't dope. The reality is that they don't test triathletes in anywhere near the same numbers that they are testing in other sports. If they ever start doing extensive AG testing in triathlon I think some people here are in for a rude awakening when they see the positive tests start adding up.

People dope for all kinds of reasons. Making big bucks is only one small reason.

I don't think that doping is necessarily all over AG cycling or triathlon. I don't worry whether or not the guys who beat me (or not) are doping. There are a lot of great, clean athlete's. But I do know that there are dopers out there in all sports. It's just a matter of putting more resources into catching them.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

I had to laugh when I read that TD was "shocked" that he had tested positive. Living here in Durango CO for over a decade now I can attest that it is common knowledge here that Tommy D's first wife divorced him over his incessant doping many years ago, long before he had his first official suspension.

To be "shocked" I guess means that he thought that he had a free pass to dope up a storm given that he was going to compete in a US stage race. He must have confused the Tour of Utah with the AMGEN Tour of California. TD was never the sharpest tool in the box......guess that his second wife and current groupie/girlfriend are going to be disappointed.

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Tony Verow MD
Durango, CO 81301
Averow@bresnan.net

Amazing article. It's hard to wrap your head around spending that much a month and taking that kind of chance to win as a Cat 3, but then after reading the article I can see how someone can get obsessed.

Some people argue that Lance's testicular cancer was caused by the steroids. PEDs will have side effects, no matter how advanced they get... it just may be awhile before we figure out what those side effects actually are. Especially when guys are guzzling some new drug that they found out about last week.

Still missing the point completely.....

moving on.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

There hasn't been a clean Olympic final heat of the 100m since before steroids. The state of the sport hasn't changed much in 30-40 years, people are just starting to notice now is all.

Let's look at his past:

#1 dope to either get a pro contract or keep a pro contract or both
#2 get a pretty decent paycheck from doing #1
#3 sign with a team owner who knows I doped yet gives me a pass as long as I promise to stay clean and to no longer wear my hat backward
#4 admit to doping and receive a 6 month ban over the winter.
#5 keep my pretty decent paycheck even after #1 and #4

Why would he stop doping? Partly you have to look at this as a failure of USADA and #4.

"I am absolutely certain that the number of people going faster in 50-54 today than we were doing in 40-44 ten years ago, is not just linked to the growth of sport, better training and "more drafting". I am more than certain there is a lot of "outside assistance" at play. All the fast pros and age groupers from when were were 30-34 are slower now at 50-54....then you have guys coming out of relatively nowhere and making big gains in their late 40's and early 50's. It defies logic. I can see getting faster on the bike due to equipment and maybe more dense courses with intentional and non intentional drafting. Swim and run time improvements are very very suspect.

But I bet you the guys doping will be done and falling apart in a few years. But they won't care. They will have a spent a few years at the top of the sport, stroked their egos and moved on to the next thing. When pro times don't get faster over a few decades and older age groups get faster and faster and faster (while pros moving into those age groups get slower), there is something wrong.

There is also very likely a group of older age groupers who are doped and THINK they are legal because their doc prescribed the medication. Their doc has no clue about competition/WADA rules and they intentionally don't want to really find out. They kind of know they are doping but justify it to themselves as "Doc's orders". "
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Dev,

I tend to mostly agree with you and there is certainly a lot of doping in our upper age groups by folks who have the inclination, money, and connections to do so. I am now in the 55 - 59, and, at least locally, am still in the competitive hunt . . . much more so than the 55 - 59 guys when I was a youngster. However, there is now a fairly large cohort of us who have been around racing for 20, 30, or more years (me, 34). Additionally, folks who didn't have kids as late as me are now empty nesters with more time to focus/train. Lastly, some of these people coming back are former class athletes who have the genetics to ramp up very quickly - they were just otherwise occupied for the last couple of decades.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

No people started noticing back around 1976. So then Charlie Francis figured that the only way to compete with the East Germans was to put the Canadian sprinters on the full cocktail, which simultaneously all the US sprinters had figured out.

Just a few excerpts from here:

At the 1984 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles, he reached the 100 m final; after false starting, he won the bronze medal behind Carl Lewis and Sam Graddy with a time of 10.22. He also won a bronze medal with the Canadian 4x100m relay team of Johnson, Tony Sharpe, Desai Williams and Sterling Hinds, who ran a time of 38.70. By the end of the 1984 season, Johnson had established himself as Canada's top sprinter, and on August 22 in Zurich, Switzerland, he bettered Williams' Canadian record of 10.17 by running 10.12.

...By the time of the 1987 World Championships, Johnson had won his four previous races with Lewis and had established himself as the best 100 m sprinter. At Rome, Johnson gained instant world fame and confirmed this status when he beat Lewis for the title, setting a new world record of 9.83 seconds as well, beating Calvin Smith's former record by a full tenth of a second.

....Following Johnson's defeat of Lewis in Rome, Lewis started trying to explain away his defeat. He first claimed that Johnson had false-started, then he alluded to a stomach virus which had weakened him. Finally, without naming names, Lewis said "There are a lot of people coming out of nowhere. I don't think they are doing it without drugs. " This was the start of Lewis' calling on the sport of track and field to be cleaned up in terms of the illegal use of performance-enhancing drugs.


This says it all from 1988....if i recall, Calvin Smith and Robson Da Silva had no doping trail behind them. In any case, its not like people are just noticing. These guys had already noticed what the East Block was doing and stepped it up. That was starting 30 years+ ago. Can a human physically go sub 10 without being doped. Maybe Calvin Smith proved that (barely) in 88. We have a young Canadian kid from USC who may just do that again (ran wind aided 9.7x at NCAA's)

Thanks, I was thinking of edit myself, but you beat me to it.

I want to say, "this has to stop", yet I know it will not and is impractical with so much $ on the line for athletes.

Heck, armatures are doping and they pay for the stuff out of pocket, so there goes my logic. Letts just have an "open" catagory and be done with it.

Might not help. Bodybuilding tried that with the "natural" category. But a lot of bodybuilders claim that a huge % of "natural" bodybuilders are doping....

yeah, I've never understood the logic of this proposal. People who dope and cheat are doing it to get an advantage on their fellow competitors. Why in the world would they suddenly say "Oh, OK....I'll just compete over here with all the other guys who have been cheating even though I have never been caught."

Doesn't it seem more likely that they would just continue with the behavior as it always has been? Why elect to go compete against others over whom you don't have an advantage?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Anybody have the scoop on the testo d13C levels in the A sample?

Maybe it was fallout of all the 4th of July beer binge drinking, or the yeast infection.

Stay tuned....

I got your point.

Bye now.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Wait, what? My communication skills are "poor" but you got my point.

Hmmm...more poor logic.

Anyone else find it disturbing that an apparent tri coach is taking such a stance re: the use of T by Age Groupers?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Oh, ok, a personal attack.

Hope it makes you feel better. Especially since you didn't get my point.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."