Pretty simple, the left lane is for passing. If you're not passing someone, move the hell over. I guess that puts me in the keep right camp.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

I don't care if people go slow. Just stay out of the passing lane.

I generally drive "slow" (about 5-10 over) and guess what? I only use the passing lane to pass.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Definitely keep right, but don't be asshole if someone is in the passing lane.

I think it was on FB recently where I saw a public service announcement or something along those lines about people blocking the passing lane causing accidents. That's generally been my view of it. You're making things way more dangerous sitting in the left lane than the speeders are.

Drive in the right lane pass in the left. Fucking Americans do not understand this concept

I have not problem with speeders who aren't reckless. The flow of traffic around here is generally 10-15 mph above the limit. But people who constantly change lanes with minimal margin, slam on their breaks and tailgate are the worst offenders. It is all subjective of course as one persons tailgating is plenty of room in another's eyes.

People who camp in the left lane at the speed limit are a close second. They may think they are improving things, but they lead to cars bunching up together and frustration from those that want to move at normal flow of traffic speeds.

I assume that most people think they are safe drivers but I was driving once with my Dad's wife when we were stuck behind a car on a mountain road. She told me to make sure I get really close so they know I want to pass.

This. Canadians too.

Drove to Napa last week. The worst ones are Californians. Driving 55 in the fast lane. Drives me crazy. GTFO of the fast lane!

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Keep right except to pass is pretty much the law everywhere. And you should complete your pass quickly, not inch by 1/2 mph faster than the car next to you.

There's not a chance in hell that the person blocking a lane is more dangerous than the person speeding. It's a choice of an individual to illegally tailgate, or swerve to pass on the inside etc, and cause the accident. Once they make that choice then it's their fault and theirs alone. It's like saying women that dress provactively are the cause of rape. The two distinct acts might invoke a series of emotions but it's the person acting out on those who is at fault.

There's generally too many cars on the freeways here to leave a lane sitting relatively vacant. It's inefficient use of the road asset. I get the rage at the slow cars that enter the freeway then merge straight to the fast lane and camp there when other lanes are sparsely used, but when it's fairly busy then I see no issue. It's not like the speeder behind is going anyway in a hurry, they normally get stuck behind the next car.

 
Bit of both for me. I keep right unless I am passing, but I pass at the speed I want to pass at. I generally do 5mph or so over the limit. In the past few years we have had a lot of out of state people move in and the flow of traffic has picked up speed quite a bit. It is not uncommon to see people doing 10-15mph over now, where that was very rare before. I will pass someone in the left lane at 5mph over then get back to the right. But if some asshole comes screaming up behind me at 15-20mph over, I have zero sympathy for them and they can wait for me to finish my pass.

I agree with this. I should have pointed out that I'm not one to sit there as though it's my right. I'll generally stay in a middle lane to avoid the merge nightmares. But if it's busy in all lanes and someone squeezes in behind me, when there are cars lined up in front, I'm in no hurry to find a gap and move back.

This ^^^^^

 
Yeah, the people that really drive me nuts are the ones who tailgate the hell out of you trying to get you out of the way when you are following the car in front of you. They want to gain that 20ft you are taking up in the left lane and think they deserve it more than you do. Those people can eff off.

My wife is unfortunately a hang out in the left lane kind of person. Drives me nuts when I am with her. She does have a somewhat decent excuse though. She is completely blind in her left eye and has limited peripheral vision in her right eye. She prefers to drive on the left so people can't hang out in her literal blind spot. I tell her she is inciting rage in others by doing this, but she feels safest knowing people can't sneak up on her blind side.

If you are driving slow and blocking a lane you hold up everyone else and on a busy highway traffic can back up for miles becasue of you. There have been studies done that have shown that even on a busy highway, one tap of your break can cause a traffic jam.

??????????

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Completely disagree. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that the person blocking the passing lane is also making a choice to ignore all of the signs that say that the left lane is for passing, not to mention the fact that in most states you can get a ticket for doing so just like speeding. It happens far too often that there is room for a person to move over to the non-passing lane, yet they sit there and block traffic. It has zero comparison to women and rape.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Agreed. I tend to keep right unless Tim Hortons is coming up then very important to get in the left lane to pass all the people turning in.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Haha it is called Dutch Brothers in our part of the world and they have a line 10-25 cars deep 24/7. Tried it once, it has enough sugar to be considered a controlled substance. Keeps the crackheads coming back.

In my life, driving or wherever, I live by the rule taught to me by John Rodrich. Keep moving and get out of the way. Not keep moving or get out of the way but keep moving AND get out of the way.

Keep right. I used to be an aggressive driver but have toned it down a lot. I still get pissed when someone is toodling along in the left hand lane blocking traffic.

I was on I-20 several years ago and there were semi trucks in both lanes. It took the one on the left about 20 miles to complete his pass. I wanted to throw something at him after I passed him, but I realized that would have been a poor decision.

If more motorists rode bikes, raced bikes and/or took part in advanced level group rides with good working echelons the roads would be safer, and we would all get to where ever we are going faster. The thing that a good working group ride and echelon has is, cooperation - that's almost non existent on the road*. For many drivers, it's like their are NO other vehicles on the road - just their's. It's this extraordinary level of selfishness and entitlement that often leads to problems.

Indeed - drive right and pass left. It's pretty straight forward. Also - look well down the road and anticipate things, and traffic movement and patterns so that you can maintain your flow/speed but also of others - let another driver in, so they don't have to jam the brakes on, or massively accelerate to make a gap.

* I do see this level of cooperation among truck drivers, and I'm always on the look out for them, as I am looking out for myself. Again, in terms of flow, I let the truck into the gap - give him a little flash of the lights to let him know, I'm giving him the space to do that . . and so on. Whereas I see so many drivers drive on up right behind a truck on the left and then maybe a truck on the right or long line of cars - that car now has no where to go safely - no safe out! And they will just end up driving along in that dead-end spot for a while.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Stay right and pass left camp. I don't really care too much how fast or slow you drive on a highway as long as this rule is followed. However equally important is in heavier traffic don't be the douche weaving in and out of traffic trying to speed.

The last few years around me the highways with speed limits of 65 seem to have people driving crazy fast. 80 mph and you're steadily getting past. I've been in a line of cars doing 90 or so and been routinely passed like I was standing still.

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

You must have been in the 5? Flipping 405 is the worst for damn Sunday and traffic drivers who cannot keep up with the flow or constantly riding the brakes while talking on speaker with the phone up to their mouths.

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DISH is how we do it.

This.

Passing lane is to pass. Just because you're going the speed limit (or over it) doesn't mean it's ok to hang out in the passing lane.

I generally don't speed. But I also recognize that many people will exceed the posted limit, and I don't have a problem with that, nor do I see it as unsafe. I'm just old. And I'm not going to get in their way.

That's how it's done on the Jersey Turnpike

Youse got a problem wit' dat?

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I think everyone should avoid the fast lane unless passing but I also think it really mucks up traffic when a holes are driving too fast.

Some of the US military members (and their spouses) stationed in Germany never pick up on this concept, and it definitely leads to problems there.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Yes, NO ONE WITH THOSE SILLY YELLOW LICENSE PLATES SEEMS TO GET STAY RIGHT PASS LEFT !!

Seriously though, if I drive home from the shore early on Monday morning it's like the Daytona 500. Which reminds me most people who make that early drive stay right and pass left. Things usually go smoothly.

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

I think part of driver's ed should be experiencing what it is like to drive a truck. I haven't ever driven a big rig (it's on my bucket list to try it) but I have a 6 speed manual diesel truck and I have towed some very heavy loads with it (north of 15k lbs). Everything is much more difficult and takes a lot longer. Getting up to speed is work, getting the thing stopped is even worse. Adjusting speed on the freeway is a lot more work for the truck. So when some asshole passes then cuts over right in front of a truck and sits there, it really is a pain in the ass. You need more space between you and the car in front because that truck ain't stopping on a dime, but slowing down to create the space then getting back up to the speed you were at is not economical and is a chore for the truck. I always give truckers plenty of room when I pull back over after passing so they can just keep cruising at their speed and not adjust anything. And yeah I will brake to let them in because I know how hard it can be to get a long load into the next lane when people aren't being cooperative.

You'd not last one junction in germany ;)

I've driven plenty on the autobahns. Here is what I love. People approach you in the fast lane and flick their lights. You move over. Simple and easy and NOT an act of aggression. I love driving in Germany.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

But how are you finding the gong show that is the pat bay highway?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Keep right but above all don't tailgate. How does a tailgater have enough trust in the person in front of them to tailgate. There aren't many trained nascar racers or jet fighter pilots on the roads. I back off a good distance when this happens in front of me and keep an eye out for my escape,

Actually, as a rule not too bad. When the ferries let loose it jams up for a while, but not too bad.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Keep right unless you're overtaking. How f'ing hard is that? It takes a glance in the mirror and one over your shoulder and 4 seconds to safely change lanes. Do it! It's also the law in many states (29 I believe). Driving in the left or middle lane at the speed limit and getting annoyed at those who want to overtake you is not only selfish, but ultimately dangerous, leading to more cars feeling the need to overtake to the right of you. And if you get annoyed by cars (safely) going 10 or so mph over the speed limit you need to get a life.

I find I'm always stuck behind some old lady in the left lane doing 75. Drives me crazy.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Keep right when I'm not doing 80 (which is 99% of the time), which seems to be the commonly accepted speed for the No. 1 lane here in Southern California. If I'm doing 80 in the No. 1 lane then I'm not going to get out of your way if you want to go faster than that; in such case it's up to you to work to attain your desired speed. Have fun passing me!

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War is god

Why not if there is space to your right and you're not overtaking?

You sure about that?


Why people drive slow in the left lane is one of the most vexing problems of the road since the invention of the automobile.

Blocking the left lane isn’t only illegal — every state has some type of law restricting use of the left lane on multi-lane roads and highways — but keeping it open for passing causes fewer accidents than speeding because traffic flows more smoothly and there’s less tailgating and less weaving in and out of traffic.

Other benefits of not being a left lane hog include reduced road rage, better gas mileage and getting to your destination faster.

“Any time you get a disruption in the normal flow of traffic, you are apt to increase the chance of an accident to occur,” says Lt. Gary Megge of the Michigan State Police.

http://www.autoinsurancecenter.com/...dumb-and-illegal.htm



STROMBERG: There is, you know, strong research showing that just a small amount of congestion can ripple outwards and make a really big traffic jam. And a lot of times that's because of just a few cars that are going slower than the speed limit or just at it and blocking up both lanes. And that causes, you know, layers and layers of people trying to pass just backed up behind them. And so it's annoying, but it also really can cause legitimate congestion.

http://www.npr.org/...iving-causes-traffic



The Dangers Caused by Slow Driving
Milwaukee car rental drivers should note the evidence that shows slowing down and changing lanes is more dangerous than speeding. According to statistics, lane changes account for about four percent of all car accidents in the US. This includes close to 10 percent of highway accidents. Interestingly enough, research has found that the strongest predictor of an accident isn’t actually speeding, as many Milwaukee car rental travelers might think, but actually variance in the average speed of traffic. Data has found that a car moving five miles slower per hour than the rest of traffic has a greater chance of causing an accident than one that is moving five miles per hour faster.

Now, imagine that those slow drivers are scattered among the right and left lanes. Suddenly, the road is full of obstacles and drivers that are traveling at a consistent speed will be required to weave in and out of traffic, executing a great many number of lane changes, in order to arrive at the destination. If the slower drivers kept to the slower right lane, these faster drivers could pass several at a time, cutting down on risky lane changes and further eliminating slowdowns.

https://www.mayfairrentacar.com/...ving-slow-left-lane/

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

What a fucked up attitude. If there is space to the right, then you should be in the right hand lane. It's not up to you to determine the speed of everyone else.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Drive right/pass left breaks down when the majority of the drivers want to go faster than the traffic flow. Everyone queues up in the left lane and stays there, until they see a big gap on the right and then they pass on the right until they catch the semi everyone is queued to go past, and then squeeze into the left, to the annoyance of everyone behind. So, to prevent that, everyone tries to stay 20ft off the bumper ahead of them at 75mph..super stressful driving.

I like to drive with cruise as much as possible, so in that situation I usually set the cruise at about 70 (75mph speed limit), stay right, and avoid having to pass too often. When I do need to pass then, it's always a pain because of the never ending stream of cars in the left lane...you just have to pull in and let them deal with it. They will catch the car they were previously behind as soon as I complete the pass pull back right anyway. This is my Land Rover driving mode (get's lousy mileage above 70mph). When I drive my wife's car I'm more likely one of the cars in the left lane queue.

One of the main contributors to the problem you describe is the reluctance of people to move to the right when there is not an enormous gap to do so. People tend to over-estimate how much space they need to move to the right, and are afraid of not being able to get back into the left lane when they get to the next car. So they say, f'k it, I'll just hold my place in the queue in the left lane. It all comes back to this weird fear many people have of changing lanes. Basically they can't be bothered to give their driving the attention it needs to do so.

Not to mention the special idiots that drive slow with cars on their right, and then gas it as soon as the right is clear.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

This. In some states it's even a law.

My writing was unclear. If there's safe room on the right then I travel on the right and/or I'd move aside for faster traffic behind me in the No. 1 lane (and then I'd slide back into the No. 1 lane after they passed me); but if there's no safe room on the right then I'm not going to cut off someone in the No. 2 lane to let the (other) speeder through just so the (other) speeder can tailgate the person in front of me in the No. 1 lane. Let me know if that doesn't make sense. The person behind me can go F themselves* and deal with the fact that traffic's heavy that day - I'm not going to endanger slower traffic in the No. 2 lane just so the person behind me can move up 50 feet or whatever my following distance is.

*As can you, Sally.

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War is god

So you admit you're writing was unclear, and then tell me to F myself? Wow, you are an asshole. And, you just pretty much admitted to being the problem....if there is room in the right lane, WTF are you doing sliding back into the left lane after somebody has passed you? WTF do you NOT understand about staying right except to pass? Is that your special lane or something?

Your designating yourself "Crank" was fairly prescient, as it is fairly obvious you are indeed a tool.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

LOL. You must be one who road rages. I laugh at people like you.

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War is god

Nope. I just shake my head at idiots like you who can't seemingly understand a very simple concept like "stay right except to pass." It's not hard, maybe somebody you'll get it. Keep trying Sparky!

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

I'm guessing someone has pointed this out already, but in many, if not most cases, it's really not your right to occupy the passing lane if you're not actively passing. It's an explicit violation of law.

Edit: somehow misread your sentence.

Crank mentioned not moving out of the way for someone riding their tail if he's already in passing mode. I agree and disagree. No, you shouldn't ever move into a space if it's not safe to do so, so that tailgater sometimes may just have to wait. But if I'm doing 80 and the guy behind me wants to do 90, I'm not going to sit there and enforce my own arbitrary speed limit, primarily because someone who drives to those excessive speeds is also likely to execute even more dangerous passes at the first opportunity, on the non-passing side. It's just safer to open up the passing lane at all times, whenever possible.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

*sigh*

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War is god

Gives you a little glimpse into the mindset of those idiots who think it's their god given right to clog up that lane, though, doesn't it?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Yeah, I mis-typed. Got me there; good one! And yet....I still know to stay right unless I'm passing. Pro tip....they have helpful signs along the highway to only use the far left lane for passing to remind you if you forget. Maybe look for those next time you think you are a special snowflake that gets the passing lane all to himself?

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Crank also rides his bicycle well within the lane on Hwy 1 aka PCH.

Indeed. And what's even dumber, is the morons who hang in the left lane until the last second, and then cut across 3-4 lanes of very heavy traffic to get to their exit. Happens multiple times every day.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Ha! No, I'm a bike lane only guy*, except for when there's no bike lane. In that case I'm as far to the right as I can get.

*I also stop for all stop signs, lights, etc. I do everything I can to increase/improve motorists' opinion of and respect for cyclists.

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War is god

The # 1 factor in driving safety is predictability, so everyone has a good idea what everyone else around them is doing and can act accordingly; all the explicit rules are basically a means to that end, so we're all reading from the same sheet of music as it were... but when you have situations where the vast majority of drivers are uniformly breaking a rule (such as speeding), then it's better to go w/ the flow rather than be the exception even if it's following the letter of the law. Put another way: regardless of what the number is on the speed limit sign, if you're doing something different than the rest of the cars around you (like going significantly slower, as evidenced by multiple cars ending up deciding to pass you on the right), then you* are the problem.

* - the royal 'you,' not anyone here in particular

As for tailgating, there are a couple of nuanced caveats I'll throw out there... Whatever the prescribed 'safe' following distance is for a given speed, the relative mass/performance of the vehicles absolutely matters. I'm willing to follow a large truck fairly closely in my dinky Honda cuz I can stop a lot faster than the much heavier vehicle, but not the other way around when I'm in my truck following a smaller vehicle. I'd also offer that when approaching a passing lane on a 2-lane hwy, maintaining a super large gap behind the car in front of you screws all the cars behind you by effectively shortening the passing lane in order to close that extra gap when it's their turn to pass, so I'll close that distance a little more in anticipation of a passing opportunity than I would during a normal cruising stretch. There's nothing I hate more than following some fuddy-duddy for miles at 45-50mph on a 2-lane hwy and then suddenly we get to a passing lane and I punch it to 75 and can't make up any ground. Those fuckers should be shot.

I'm definitely laughing at you now. You should just stop.

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War is god

Have a nut, laugh your ass off. All I know is that I can understand fairly simple concepts that you seemingly can't comprehend. You may also want to go back through the thread and figure out which one of us is in the minority here....it ain't* me.

*I threw that out as a bone for you as it seems that since you can't win the argument on its merits, you'd rather resort to nitpicking grammar. Go ahead, burn me again!

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

I learned to drive in Jersey. People bag on Jersey drivers, but man, I'd rather be among aggressive, keyed-in drivers than what I ran into when I moved to South Carolina, which was basically oblivious, unpredictable drivers. It's like the difference between a NASCAR race, and a highway full of tweeners who took their parents' cars for a joyride.

DC beltway traffic is congested but generally easy to navigate. I commute in the fast lane almost exclusively, as it functions as a high-speed train that runs at a uniform speed, 15mph above the limit, with rare exception. No one's trying to push their way through and force people to the right because of it's inherent efficiency.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Aaaand, I'm moving on. Consider this the LavRoom version of a driver (me) giving a friendly wave and smile to a road rager (you), thereby diffusing the situation so that each of us may simply continue on down the road of life unimpeded by the other. (Try not to get too worked up over the little things that don't really matter in the bigger picture.)

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War is god

I know you want to think of me as a road rager, but it isn't the case. I don't tail gate and I don't drive aggressively. I move over when others want to pass me. I move go the right lane when I'm not passing. In short, I don't think that the left lane is my lane, and all others can suck it (you).

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Actually people like that are the real life versions of the internet troll. Except in real life they cause actual accidents.

As satisfying as it would have been to those around them, that cop unnecessarily put lives at risk and violated two rules they are meant to enforce vs the one they interrupted.

The jam scenario you refer to is caused by people travelling at unsafe distances to the car in front and unable to absorb speed changes without hard braking. It occurs more often where speed differentials are greater (greater speeds rather than slower speeds). Digressing as only I can, have you ever been in those jams and tried rolling along with subtle braking rather than closing down the gap quickly then braking to a standstill? Everyone behind you keeps moving and it's much less stressful. Unfortunately you leave even the slightest gap and the lane hoppers think it's the path to freedom and block it up immediately!

People seem to think that highways are magical places where the other lanes have infinite capacity to absorb all traffic but for them. It doesn't work that way. The capacity of the carriageway is maximised when all lanes are utilised with people doing similar speeds at safe distances. It's the people accelerating into gaps or right up to people in front, then braking, that ultimately cause the shock waves you allude to. If people actually adhered to limits then this conversation doesn't take place.

Greater utilisation of all lanes gets more people to their destination faster. It's undeniable. I'm a highway engineer. I've seen my fair share of studies and contributed to them. Unfortunately people fail to look outside their own world. That lane should should sit vacant for their exclusive use.

Thank you for posting this. I was going to post something similar.

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Suffer Well.

Yes, most definitely sure. What causes accidents? Not having enough time to brake and avoid a collision. A product of speed and space (time to react). People can blame a slower driver all they like, but only the individual controls that safe space between them and the car in front. Who cops the penalty for rear end accidents? The car behind.

It all sounds great in theory (keeping this lane free), but it really isn't as simple as many keep trying to say. The 2nd, 3rd etc lanes don't have unlimited capacity to absorb everyone getting out of their way.

The frustrations are created due to speed differentials. Yes some people drive below the limit but not to the same extent as those driving over the limit. So these differentials are caused more by speeders. We (speeders) are the ones leading to our own demise. In an ideal world there shouldn't be a need to overtake but people are too wrapped up in their own importance and have to get to their destination before anyone else.

I agree with you that there are numerous examples of people being there without reason. But as volumes increase, that lane becomes required to maintain capacity. If people actually adhered to limits there wouldn't be a need to pass. For better or worse, these generally are not autobahns. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Yes saying provocative dress leads to rape is as ridiculous as saying a lane hog caused me to have an accident. I am in total control as to how much space I leave in front and how quickly I change speed or lanes. I can't blame someone else. It is my actions, not theirs, that caused the accident.

Yes, to be clear, I'm not talking about when there is simply too much traffic and the left lane is required just to handle things. I'm talking about when there is ample room to move to the right, and yet people refuse to do so. That is dangerous, stupid, and as illegal as speeding.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

So who decides how fast people can go? In the States it's meant to be governed by that sign with a number in a circle, not the individual. It's a black on white (regulatory) limit, not black on yellow (advisory) one. It seems there's a linear relationship between how fast people drive and how much they complain about this issue.

And who decides whether or not they belong in the left hand lane? It is also a regulatory limit in pretty much every state. You seem to be saying one offense (blocking the left hand lane) is ok while speeding is not.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Here's a clue - when no one else agrees with you ... it's you!

I'll give ya props - when you are wrong, you ride that wrong all the way down. Good on ya. You got gumption! But, you are still wrong ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Or the mindset of those who think they can drive whatever speed they like and damn anyone who gets in their way? Why are you more special than everyone else?

Read my posts. Not once do I say I like to sit in that lane for no reason. On the other hand many freely admit to driving at whatever speed they choose.

Stepping back for a second, I think I've found a topic that invokes more vitriol than politics. Approaching that of guns!

BINGO!

People who drive slowly in the left lane are individuals who have been beaten down by life and, in this brief moment in time, feel like they have control over something and can exert that control over others.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It's not a black and white issue. There are people who appear on a crusade to police traffic by maintaining the speed limit in the passing lane, without regard to open lanes to their left or the bottle neck they're creating. You flash your lights once, briefly, and they ignore you. You flash twice, they ignore you. They pump their brakes to back you off. Eventually, in nearly every occurence, they get passed on the right, which is the most dangerous of the available options.

Those people are idiots. There's no getting around it (see what I did there?)

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

That was freakin awesome!!!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That raises an interesting legal/social question. (JSA, weigh in here if you would.) A lot of people are pointing to laws that say, "don't travel in the fast lane," but the people pointing to those laws are, in most cases, breaking the laws themselves by speeding. Each party (the speeder and the traveler) is contributing to a danger, whether they realize it or not.

So, question: If all are breaking a law (some by traveling in the left lane and others by speeding, but all are exceeding the speed limit), then what right do some (the faster drivers) have to say to others (the travelers), "You must not prevent me from breaking the law to a greater extent than you are breaking it?"? Or put another way, what right do the speeders have to demand, "You must take steps to enable me to break the law to a greater extent than you are breaking it."? The converse applies equally and incontestably to those of the travelers who are trying to impose their own notion of a speed limit upon the others (of which I believe someone in this thread has falsely accused me).

Or is this an issue to which the law does not extend, but rather it becomes an exercise in... what's a good term? Culture? Custom? Mores? Simply demanding that others conform to the findings of whichever traffic study one believes has gotten it right?

Someone observed that many roadways are saturated with vehicles so not traveling in the fast lane is rendered impossible. I don't know where the other posters live (Cincinnati, for all I know), but here in Southern California there is, except for the most off hours, simply no safe place to absorb all the non-passers. So is the law against traveling in the fast lane rendered inapplicable except at those times, either by its own terms or by the reality that the fast lane no longer is?

Frankly, I think everyone's guilty.

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War is god

Deciding that 80 mph is an appropriate speed to maintain in the left lane even if you're not passing is no different than those who decide that doing 62 is an appropriate speed to do the same thing.

I recall being scared to death the first time I drove on an Autobahn. I didn't yet realize that most people drive only 75-80ish, and it's fine, and it's the ones with their high beams on to be wary of.

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War is god

Agree. That is essentially what I wrote, right?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

How so? It's illegal to do 80 but not illegal to do 62. 50, sure, but 62 seems a reach.

That said, anyone who does 62 in the fast lane (without traffic ahead of them) should be shunted aside. 75 too, for that matter.

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War is god

There was a case here in Maryland many many years ago where in the middle of the night an excessively speeding drunk driver ran into the back of a vehicle merging onto the beltway and the vehicle that got rear ended was charged with not merging with traffic properly.

More on point with this thread, the Washington Post did an article that showed a driver who felt like 55 in the left lane was proper was involved in like 18 accidents on the beltway. Putz.

Study after study has been done on this and as JSA has pointed out earlier, and provided links as evidence, that one slower driver in traffic is far more dangerous than speeding.

Here is a great article on the "science" of traffic jams.. Pretty neat stuff..Describes what you are talking about. http://www.smartmotorist.com/...ne/traffic-jams.html

One part I found pretty fascinating and you will never ever see anyone do the right thing in this case: (there is a graphic in the article showing this)

ON THE LEFT: NORMAL DRIVERS WHO PACK THEMSELVES TIGHTLY TOGETHER WHENEVER THE TRAFFIC COMES TO A STOP. NOBODY CAN MERGE EXCEPT AT THE END OF THE JAM. NOTE THEIR LOW SPEED.

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ON THE RIGHT >>>>> DRIVERS WITH UNUSUAL BEHAVIOR: THEY ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO MERGE AHEAD OF THEM, AND THEY TEND TO MAINTAIN LARGE SPACES AHEAD, EVEN IF TRAFFIC SLOWS TO A CRAWL. MERGING IS EASY. SEE HOW MUCH FASTER THEY GO?
Traffic jams often occur on highways wherever two lanes must merge into one. Lanes of cars cannot merge if there are no large gaps between cars. Therefore, drivers who create large gaps between cars will ease this type of traffic jam.

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To ease this type of jam:

• Maintain a large space ahead of your car.
• Encourage one, two even three cars to merge ahead of you.
• If traffic slows to a complete stop, KEEP TWO CAR-LENGTHS OF SPACE OPEN AHEAD OF YOU.
• Never "punish" merging drivers by closing your gap.
• Other suggestions

Amazingly enough, it is not necessary that EVERYONE do this. If only a few drivers will maintain large gaps during heavy traffic, then merging traffic is not forbidden, and the situation in the left-hand diagram can be prevented.
Yes you're right, you cannot eliminate every problem by simply making a big gap in front of your car. When there are too many cars on the road, traffic slows down. But if we use these special driving habits, the smaller jams can be erased, and stop-and-go traffic can be smoothed out. Since many traffic jams are caused by merging lanes, many traffic jams can be improved by the actions of just one driver.

(As you can see, I shortened your post just to save space).

You are absolutely right. There is no "passing speed" or any type of leeway to pass. So, if the posted speed limit is 70, a driver is breaking the law by exceeded 70 mph to pass.

It raises an interesting legal question in states in which it is illegal to "cruise" in the left lane. There are states that have laws that prohibit travel in the far left lane unless the driver is passing. Thus, if the posted speed is 70 mph and a driver is going 70 mph in the far left lane, he/she is observing the speed limit law, but, at the same time, may be breaking the law regarding traveling in the far left lane without passing. But, the driver who travels 75 mph in the far left lane to pass the driver going 70 mph in the right lane is actually breaking the law by exceeding the posted speed limit while obeying the law in using the left lane to pass.

Now, that said, there is a general recognition and acceptance that 0 to 5 mph over the posted limit is acceptable. In most jurisdictions, anything 10 mph or under above the posted limit will be ignored. Yes, these people are breaking the law by exceeding the posted speed limit. But, there is a general understanding the permitting a little wiggle room, which allows passing, is safer and increases the flow of traffic, which is beneficial for everyone.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Maybe the story about the merging traffic is plenty on point with this thread. It would seem that nobody should be so charged unless there was much more to the story. Such as, did witnesses testify that the merging driver darted across lanes and into the drunk speeder's path in an ill conceived attempt to slow the drunk? If that's so, then Darwin's Law is more applicable than the Maryland Vehicle Code.

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War is god

Several years ago I spent a month driving on Long Island in NY. I appreciated the aggressive but predictable nature of the drivers there. People quickly accelerated when lights turned green and didn't hold up 30 people behind them just to let one person out. I thought it worked out really well for them and tried to adapt their driving habits while I was there.

Ok, so there's the issue: The culture of law enforcement is to forgive X mph over/under the posted limit, and I agree with you 100% on that premise. Therefore, it's an issue to which the law does not expressly reach because whatever number X represents is certainly unwritten. Rather, it's cultural because it's within an officer's discretion to decide whether your driving transgression has caused a danger of a magnitude that merits being stopped, and it's culture that informs discretion. It follows that it's that penumbral area between law and culture from which enforcement authority (not law enforcement, but, rather, safety enforcement?) springs. (I like to think with analogies: It's kind of like the difference between DUI and DWI. DUI [Driving Under the Influence] is the charge when you're not over the legal BAC limit, but you're impaired and, in the officer's opinion [which is informed by both scientific study and training, as well as the officer's culture of enforcement], you shouldn't be driving. DWI [Driving While Intoxicated] is when you're over the legal limit. I think. I'm prepared to be corrected.)

So, extending that discussion to the issue of who's less wrong between the speeders or the travelers-and therefore who "wins" the argument-is the preference for people getting the hell out of the way cultural, informed by traffic studies that show that slower traffic in a fast system contributes to accidents? Then, would the argument go, "accidents are deemed to be the worse of the multiple evils, so even if you're speeding then get out of the way of the more speedy?"

I can see that argument prevailing in a classroom, but I don't see it prevailing the real world where there frequently isn't anywhere safe to go to make room for the speedier. I'll argue that changing lanes into a congested No. 2 lane is more dangerous than holding up a faster speeder. Doing so increases the chances the driver in the No. 2 lane I just cut off will hit/tap their brakes, then we all know how that goes, et voila - a new traffic jam, even, with fender benders, all so that a faster speeder could get through until the next car impedes them in the fast lane.

Dinner beckons, then a workout. "See" you tomorrow.

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War is god

It depends on the speed limit - and maybe I should have included that. If the speed limit is 60, you're breaking the speed limit whether you're doing 62 or 80. So the question is who has the right to decide what the maximum speed should be without having to move over for people who want to go even faster.

Yep. Was agreeing with you.

Slower traffic moves to the right is the general rule of the road.

If you are going 70 in a 60 and someone is doing 80 behind you, you should move to the right.

The common feeling that most drivers have is that the people going slower than them are intentional self centered assholes and the ones going faster than them are reckless self centered assholes is wrong.

When everyone else on the road seems to be an asshole, then you might be the asshole.

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Suffer Well.

I'd still say you have a fucked up attitude.

Everyone should drive in such a manner that nobody else needs to slow down because of their driving. In your example, you need to shit or get off the pot with your pass....run it up to 85 or 90+ to hurry up and get over.

If everyone thought "will someone else have to slow down if do this maneuver, pass, turn out, etc?" if so then they wait until they can do it without impeding anyone else. My favorite people in the world are those that pull over to the shoulder on two lane highways to let faster people pass - everyone's day is better.

When I drive on the "fast" roads, D'Wife will sit in the back with D'Kid in shotgun, playing the DJ role

Sometimes D'Wife will ask why I have my signal on*, when there's no place to go

"See that guy? He's gonna go there, then this guy in gonna follow him, opening the space up for me over there, nice and comfy"

Predictable




* Yes, I realize that using the signal lets people know where you're going, giving them an unfair advantage, but ... so it goes

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

The thing is, when people start setting their own rules it becomes chaos. The speed differentials increase and this, coupled with self righteous attitudes, results in dangerous behaviour and accidents. As I'll post shortly, speed, lane changes and reckless driving are the causes, not the slower driver. That driver can cause you to be a bit slower to your destination but they don't cause you to drive dangerous, that's all on you.

Imagine you come up to a bunch of cars in lane 2 doing 10-15 less than you (we can say you're 'close' to the limit) so you move into lane 1. As you start passing a car comes up behind you doing 20-30 more than you. It's not really safe to merge in your opinion as the gaps aren't great. But the end of that queue is perhaps 300-400 yds. Do you increase your speed by 20-30 to get out the way or do you continue going at a speed you think is more than adequate to pass, perhaps not being comfortable at higher speeds?

To the guy behind you're a lane hog. You don't think you're doing anything wrong. Some in lane 2 might think you're a speeder because there are signs that say you're 10-15 over.

For those using autobahns as examples, I think one reason it might work well there is that most people know there are no limits and thus there can be massive differentials. In the States (and Oz, UK etc) there are posted limits. Many naively believe differentials aren't that great, or that people follow rules, so driving at or just under doesn't seem like a big deal. They don't expect to be holding people up. Passing at 2-5mph over might not seem like an issue to them but to you at 10-15 over they're a pain in the ass. Like you might be to the guy behind doing 20-30 over.

It works well on autobahns where people know and expect the differentials. It works well on sign posted highways where people largely adhere to the limits (bit of a fantasy I know). It works terribly on posted highways where everyone decides how much they can exceed the limits by.

People sitting left on an otherwise sparsely occupied carriageway are a curse, but for others to try and dictate terms to people making a pass, at any relative speed increase, is a bit rich.

I enjoy doing that gap creation in jams and it's exactly as the author writes, trying to arrive just as the car in front takes off the brakes so you can keep rolling. It actually becomes like a game. I encourage others to try it. Miss Daisy in the back loves it too ;) Though I do wonder if people behind appreciate and understand what I'm doing. Nothing is more frustrating than stop start travel.

As for the so called studies, I'm just going to respectfully disagree and say this thread is dominated by people letting their personal bias trump reality. Most professions have examples of 'academics' or experts who likewise are so passionate about something they can skew data to make their fantasy become reality. The cited references aren't even professional studies nor written by industry specialists

I just googled leading causes of traffic accidents; apologies I can't scroll up on this phone to get hyperlink

https://seriousaccidents.com/...es-of-car-accidents/ noting that a lawyer is also not necessarily an industry specialist, there are less ways to bend actual crash stats than to create a study to serve your needs - the previous links aren't even studies rather opinion pieces

1. Distracted driving 2. Speeding 4. Reckless drivers (Refers to impatient drivers) 11. Lane changes 14. Tailgating

No mention of lane hogs in top 25

The pattern is similar here (Oz). Distracted drivers and speeding top the list. Rear end accidents are the most common because, low and behold, people travel too fast and too close to the car in front.

JSA's previous links are, frankly, laughable. He is prepared to base his position on links referring to professional, technical wording like 'dumb' (first link, insurance), 'annoying' (second link, national public radio by a freelance scientist reporter who "stresses the science on this is not settled") and a rentacar organisation that makes a claim and then asks us to 'now imagine these slower cars are scattered across all lanes'. Seriously? There is one statement that is true, that is that speed differentials being greater increases the issue.

Show me studies that have micro simulation models supporting the argument and I might take someone seriously. Ive worked within state highway departments, been involved with road safety committees, studied traffic modelling and been in the road engineering industry for nearly 20 years. Being a lone wolf in this thread does not make me wrong, it just shows how passionate most people are about this and who let their emotions create irrational arguments.

Are lane hogs annoying? Hell yes. Are they the cause of accidents? No. It's the impatient speeders who tailgate, recklessly change lanes and set their own speed limits who are to blame.

One thing is certain, want to see someone at their worst? Put them behind the wheel of a car in traffic!

Yeah but isn't it like the chicken in the egg as far as a cause? I mean if traffic is generally flowing at 75-80 mph and you have one or several drivers who are driving slower and impeding the flow of traffic by driving in the left lane, it will cause people to have to change lanes and break on the busy highway. In my view yes both are breaking the law but it is far more dangerous in this case for those slower drivers to hang in the left lane.

Ha ha nice one.

People seem to think I'm advocating staying left at all costs. I'm not, never have.

I just have zero compassion for people that speed then complain about people getting in their way.

Blocking frustrates. Speed kills.

Isn't it 4AM or so where you are? Go to bed. ;-)

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War is god

The US Insurance Institute is "laughable?" Now THAT is laughable!!!

You have proffered nothing to rebut the statements made by multiple individuals and the links supporting that position.

Now, you may think you are the smartest guy in the room, but, I assure you, you are not. So, put up or shut up.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Not possible. I believe it has been proven again and again in that other forum that if a driver is forced to "drop back" after every car merges; the end result is that that driver will eventually start going backwards. thus ruining their chance to PR their commute home.

I can't be any more clearer about this. It is the person who chooses to go in excess of the speed limit, brake, tailgate, change lanes, accelerate and change lanes again who is the dangerous one. Not the person going at a constant speed 5 mph slower in the fast lane.

It's baffling that people can't put aside their emotions long enough to comprehend this. Of the two drivers, who is the predictable one? Who is the one making multiple decisions and speed changes?

They don't HAVE to. They choose to. Funny thing is you save very little time by being 'that' driver. It's classic hare and the tortoise, which shits the hare off even more.

There's nothing stopping Mr Fast from just going to lane 2 and chilling out with the rest of the flock. Obviously you all know how stressful it is to be held up by drivers and having to change lanes all over the place. I challenge you, next time you're on such a road make a conscious decision to just sit in lane 2 or 3 and don't pass. Just sit in there, play some great tunes and go with the flow. It's so much more relaxing to know there's no pressure to pass.

People are too oblivious to the risks that small speed increases have on the safety of them and those around them. The following is an old commercial from here that demonstrates it well for low speed, local roads.

2:20am. I know, I'm wired. Today will suck.

JFC, leave it to the engineer to overcomplicate shit (don't worry, I'm in Public Works as well, surrounded by engineers every day).

One more time, regardless of what the posted speed limit is, it's painfully obvious to darn near everyone else here the guy in the left lane who insists on going 10+mph slower than everyone else is the biggest source of problems. Whether the prevailing flow is 75 in a 65 zone, or 60 in a 55, or 80 in a 50 is still beside the point. Zag when everyone else zigs, and shit hits the fan.

I've taken multiple long road trips across the West (OR-WA-ID-NV-UT-WY-CO, etc), and the funny thing is the actual traffic speed/flow on the Interstate is pretty much the same across all the states even though the posted limit varies from 65 to 80 (not counting urban areas). The reality is there's a 'natural' asymptotic speed based on the highway design, pavement surface, and typical vehicle/driver combo so that only very rarely did I find that people kept driving the same X mph over the limit as the limit increased; IOW, somewhere around an 80mph limit (hate to give credit to Utah, but apparently their engineers are willing to acknowledge the obvious), very few cars are still speeding anymore. I'm not saying we *should* abolish speed limits on open highways, just saying that in my observation they are kinda pointless other than presenting a ticket revenue opportunity. Insisting on a 65mph limit is about like trying to make water flow uphill.

I agree a person like that is likely to cause an accident. But what people and myself are saying is it can also be caused by a person that causes everyone else on the highway to have to change lanes and break by consistently driving slower than everyone else. We are talking about 2 different scenarios.

This. The speed limit is often (mis)stated as the minimum. You can hear it often in conversation when a person is complaining of slow(er) drivers only doing the speed limit.

Drivers don't 'have' to do anything. There is always a choice. They let this work them into a frenzy (I've felt it too), lose their sensibilities and choose to drive erratically.

Empty freeway? Get the F out of that lane. Freeway at moderate to high capacity, boo F-ing hoo to those who want to speed.

I think our positions somewhat overlap but I appreciate the manner in which you discussed it.

When I was growing up we were traveling on some highway. Speed Limit was 55 mph. Everyone was probably driving 65 to 70 mph. My father drove the speed limit. He was pulled over and told to either keep up with traffic or find another route as he could possibly cause an accident. Trooper was 100% right.

I don't proclaim to be the smartest person in the room Chief. Conversely, your thinly veiled attempts to patronise me under the guise of humour appear to show you think you are.

I pity the person/org who you're billing your time to at that high hourly rate whilst you surf ST and tell me how to do my job?

Tell you what, I won't try and tell you how to defend workers rights in the same light that I won't pay much attention to a lawyer telling me about highway engineering and road safety.

I know you're a smart guy, but with all due respect those links were ordinary at best. Next time send me something from FHWA or USDOT. But not now, I'm going to bed. You get back to doing what you do best and ignore this pesky engineer from down-under. I respect your right to have an opinion on this. I just happen to disagree and I'm quite comfortable with my position. Evidently so are you. It's a stale mate.

Have yourself a pleasant day.

Those "ordinary" links were found in 30 seconds. You have had a few days now and have been unable to proffer anything in support of your asinine position.

So I challenge you again - put up or shut up because your personal belief carries no weight.

Or continue to look the fool. Your call ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

"I don't proclaim to be the smartest person in the room Chief. Conversely, your thinly veiled attempts to patronise me under the guise of humour appear to show you think you are."

Conversely, telling someone they are trying to patronize you and calling them "chief" says more about you and your feelings of insecurity than it does about other people.


And yet there is no rebuttal with data other than a personal attack. Information or data isn't always what a person says but also what they refuse to provide, say or admit.

Thus far, all you have done is the classic "argument from authority." "I'm a highway engineer and know better than you" is really all you've provided. People have posted numerous studies, yet you poo-poo them and cast them aside and instead ask for studies from elsewhere. And yet...I don't believe you have proffered up a single study or reference to bolster your own position. Finally, you continue to argue that only those passing on the right are responsible for any accidents, completely ignoring the fact that a lane blocker is also making a conscious decision to create the unsafe condition in the first place.

ETA: Oh, and here are some facts for you: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/...ewPublication/812409

Note that the stats are from USDOT. You have been throwing around "speed kills" as if it is the primary reason for fatal crashes, when in fact non-speeding causes are the majority (70% to 30%). Secondly, the entire argument in this thread has revolved around interstate driving, and there are very few (for a country as big as the US) interstate related speeding fatal accidents; the vast majority are on non-interstate road ways.

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Is he from down under? Do they normally drive on the left instead of the right like here in the US?

A colleague of mine who lived in Germany said there is one big difference between American and German drivers. American drivers feel like they are driving the one safe and efficient speed and that anyone going faster is a crazy and anyone going slower is an idiot. American drivers might sit in the left lane blocking traffic because they think they are going "fast enough" and everyone behind them are being unreasonable while drivers held up by slower traffic put other drivers at risk by tailgating and passing unsafely because they feel entitled to go faster than all the slowpokes. German drivers cooperate and respect each other regardless of their speed. German drivers don't resent being momentarily held up by a slow truck or someone flying by them much faster than they are willing or able to drive. In the US left lane discipline varies greatly by region. In some areas drivers are pretty good about using the left lane for passing and moving over while in other areas drivers drive whatever speed they like in any lane they want. I haven't driven them for a while so it may no longer be the case but the two fastest stretches of US road I drove were I35 between Gainsville, TX and Norman OK and I20 East of Dallas. I used to get passed like I was standing still when I drove my old Volvo 240 wagon its top speed of ~85MPH and yes I stayed in the right lane.
I think speed limits are too low in rural areas. In Texas the highest speed limit is 85MPH but there are areas where people drive a lot faster with impunity because law enforcement simply couldn't ticket everyone who speeds. I think a more reasonable speed limit in rural areas would be around 100MPH.

Let me resolve this for everyone. As payment, send ice cream. No, Power Bars. Who am I kidding? Send ice cream.

If everyone drove the speed limit exactly - this wouldn't be an issue. But, most people are going to exceed the speed limit. It may increase accidents - but it is a fact of life. Most people exceeding the speed limit manage to do so without endangering anyone else.

However, since it is a given that people will exceed the posted speed limit - dangerous situations do occur when someone chooses an arbitrary maximum speed and determines that they are going to stay in the left hand lane as long as they are doing their chosen speed limit.

I think it is safer to let the speedy drivers pass than to block the left lane so that they are all congregated and impatient, no?

So, in your mind. If someone gets on the highway, and camps out in the left lane at 45 mph (posted minimum). Everyone should just line up in the right lane and go 45 mph also, since it's "aggressive" driving to pass on the right. The one jackass at 45 mph sets the speed for everyone?

If the typical speed on the highway is 75-80, except for trucks that might only be able to do 65. The guy doing 70 in the left lane is an ass. No, he isn't forcing anyone to change lanes and pass on the right, the whole highway could slow down to his speed, but in reality, if 'everyone else' is going 80, he's the problem, and he is causing people to change lanes and pass on the right.

Those people should be ticketed for impeding traffic, much like the cops try to ticket cyclists.

That's fair enough that your links were based off a 30 second search. This is just an online forum. I found your links myself off the same type of search. Likewise, post #93, which evidently all the detractors missed, provided a link based off a similar 30 second search "leading causes of traffic accidents USA". They were dominated by legal firm type posts but they were in line with each other and matched broad causes from local links. Note the thread was just over one day, not 'several days'. Top three are almost universally:

1 Distracted drivers
2. Speeding
3. Alcohol

No mention of lane hog in the 25 listed in my earlier link.

The problem (you and I will both have) with trying to search for statistics on lane hogging is that I doubt it will ever show up in a statistic. Therefore the links become opinion pieces. Compare this with causes which are based off statistics. There are several reasons it (hogging) won't show up. For one the lane hog is generally not involved directly. If they are it goes down as rear end accident thus 'tailgating', and it's always the tailgaters fault (unless hog goes into reverse). Otherwise it might flow into unsafe lane changes etc, which again, comes down to the individual making that unsafe lane change. By the time police arrive to assess the crash the hog has gone and it becomes anecdotal which can't be captured in statistics.

The closest type of accident that would be recorded is the swerved to avoid animal, but there's a big difference between the two. It's not like a hog appears out of nowhere.

At the end of the day the most a hog does (to causing accidents) is generate frustrating. That in itself is not a direct cause of someone else driving erratically. They can get upset but then they either choose to remain in line patiently, change lanes with due diligence or change lanes recklessness. The first two choices won't result in an accident. The third might, but that's on the faster driver, not the hog. We all seem intent in blaming others for our poor choices.

I've sided with the general position of the group here in saying they are a pest. I don't do it. Our disagreement comes from whether they cause accidents. I've never seen them show up in actual stats, but as indicated above it would be hard to capture. Even then they may be a contributing factor, but not the ultimate cause. I've also said I have no sympathy for speeders who complain about it. Because speed is a leading factor, almost always top 3.

Spot - here's a hint, when stats compare one variable (speed) against 'all other' variables, that's an indication it's a significant variable. Interstates are some of the safest roads due to separation of opposing traffic and removal of at-grade intersections, that's why they may not appear in lists of worst locations. Your link did contain commentary along the lines that certain states speed was more of an issue because of long deserted rural highways where a lack of congestion led to higher speeds. Congestion is the friend of road fatalities for a reason: speed reduction.

With that I'm late for work.

You still haven't linked to any studies supporting your position.

That might help your position ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

To clarify, which position that I'm taking do you take objection to?

The position you have taken in opposition to mine ... and pretty much the position of every other person in this thread ... and everyone on the road who has half a brain ...

... except for those driving Miss Daisy in the left lane ...

... like you.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That slow drivers mixing with speeding drivers in the left lane aren't the direct cause of accidents?

Won't happen. That stat doesn't exist for reasons I've explained. If you fail to comprehend that, I can't help you.

Your continued obsession to belittle me doesn't make you any more credible.

Until the next thread...

I don't belittle. Sometimes the truth hurts ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That's cute. Thanks for the laugh.

I'll stay aligned with those on the road with a full brain then.

It sure as shit doesn't sound like you will ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Posting from my phone, so who knows if this link will work. Video of two jackasses proving that it takes two to tango.

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War is god

Camaro driver is a complete, total, and unadulterated idiot. Pick up truck driver is a complete asshole with a small penis who is in a miserable marriage and a dead end job with no sense of control over anything in his life, so he felt like a big man controlling the flow of traffic for a few minutes until he fucked with the wrong idiot.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I agree with every word you wrote.

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War is god

I'm going to channel my inner Forge.....If police could get this amount/quality of dashcam video to back them up, they should be able to unceremoniously execute people like the pick-up driver on the side of the road.

Only after the pickup driver gets to execute the Camaro driver.

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War is god

With no intentions of flaming the coals on this thread (thus responding to you :) ), I'm not really sure why people are dumping on the pick-up driver here.

If you look carefully, right up until the arrival of the Camaro, there is actually another car in front of the pick-up (look carefully and the shadow can be seen perhaps 20 yds in front). The Camaro passes everyone on the right then arrives and tries to force their way into a gap that doesn't exist. The pick-up rightfully enforces their place. It wasn't the pickup truck causing the Camaro to pass on the right.

Then the Camaro starts acting like a real ass and the pick-up starts doing what I bet everyone else here would be inclined to do - be in no particular hurry to let someone like that on their way. It's only later that we see the gap to the car in front (of the pickup) opens up.

If the pickup wanted to be a real ass they would have been pumping the brakes from the onset.

It goes back to one of the earlier points made. It's the person driving aggressively that is responsible for the accident. No one is forcing the Camaro to jump into that gap and pass as quick as possible. The impatience of the Camaro led to two drivers being on edge. It was always going to be confrontational from that point on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPCE2tTLZQ

You are correct that it is 100% the Camero's fault up until the pickup decides to match speeds with the semi. Then it was a pissing match between the two of them. Pickup was trying to teach the Camero a lesson and was probably thinking he would let him pass as soon as he stops hugging his bumper.

This. Also, I'd love to see the aftermath of the wreck. Doesn't look like anyone would've been injured (maybe Camaro driver?) but that was probably one fun wrestling match to see.

They both deserved it tbh, the one somewhat innocent bystander is the semi driver. Is there much he could've done? Dude's gonna catch shit for that at work, too, which sucks for him.

Sure, fault the Camaro as much as you want for being a dick, passing on the right, trying to cut off the pickup. If I were in the pickup I'd say a fwe choice words, maybe hit the brakes hard once to keep him honest, then go about my day.

Sitting shoulder-to-shoulder with a semi in this situation for a couple of minutes is asking for trouble. Stupid shit like this is why a stupid wreck like this happens. Pickup truck driver should've let it go and been on his way, he probably would've forgotten about the asshole Camaro driver by the time he got home. Instead his truck is wrecked and he probably got some wrestling in, maybe spent some time in a jail cell and will be in court off and on for the next year. Stupid.

Ultimately the Camero caused the accident but both drivers should be shot. I hate both fucking types of drivers. Those 2 fuckers risked the lives of everyone driving in their vicinity and for what? To prove a point and the other to save a couple of fucking minutes while driving. Assholes is to light of term for both of them. I never wish anyone hurt in an accident but I really hope they both totaled their cars and have the misery of traffic fines to boot.

I constantly point out to my soon to be driving daughter cars that speed and run a red (speed up through yellow but the light is red by the time they get to it) on how yup I stopped and then oh look at that... their little stunt saved no time becasue look we are now right beside them at the next light.

Anywho...

The problem is people not appreciating that they are behind the wheel of machines that I believe still kill more Americans than anything other than disease. Around 34,000 in 2014. That is a ridiculously high number of people for a modern first world country.

It's a pity people think they're invincible in cars and continue to act like tough guys when driving. As shown it's innocent people like the truck driver who get caught up in it.

Edit: by 'truck' I mean semi

Up until he did brake check the Camero and then started the rolling road block with the semi, he was ok.

This is a typical situation where slow pokes are the root cause of accidents.

The 2 semis are travelling at the max cruising speed, which was slower than most of the other traffic.

The problem starts when a slow poke pulls out into the left lane to "pass" the semis. If they don't match the speed of the rest of traffic, and take their sweet time in "passing" the semis, it creates a rolling traffic jam for no reason at all. They should speed up and actually pass the trucks in a reasonable time, or slow down and just follow the semis.

Now there is a long line in the left lane, inviting impatient drivers to try to zoom up in the right lane and then cut back into the left lane.

The OJ (original Jackass) in this was the car in front of the pickup (or whoever was leading the slow conga line). Keep up or get out of the way.

Once the Camero made his move, the real trouble begins. It was a dick move by the Camero, and he kept it up by tailgating, but the pickup engaged with him, and continued and escalated it.

Once the car in front of the pickup had cleared the semi, and the pickup had an opportunity to move into the right lane and end the issue, he was now breaking the law by impeding traffic by travelling slower than the speed of traffic.

Now you seem to think that the Camero driver and the probably 20 cars behind them should just be content to drive along 10-15mph slower just because that's what the pickup driver wants to do. He's welcome to drive whatever speed he wants, but he can't unilaterally impose that speed on everyone else.

Passing on the shoulder? Total jackass move and ultimately caused the wreck, but the pickup driver had no idea if the Camero driver had just been shot and was rushing to the hospital, or was an undercover cop following chasing a rape/murder suspect, or it was Jack Bauer tracking down a stolen nuclear weapon. Why be a dick and block him and everyone else, just to be a dick?

Yeah that's a good point, and one that gets lost in all this. Happens ALL the time, you have semis all over the road and people take their sweet-ass time passing them, traffic piles up in the passing lane, someone cuts to the right and BAM you have an unsafe situation. It's especially bad in 3+ lane roads, because the traffic piles up in the passing lane then the impatient asshole passes everyone INCLUDING the semi on the right, and it presents all kinds of danger to everyone else.

I drive fairly fast, but I'm always observant and trying to stay two steps ahead of both the slow/unobservant drivers and the assholes pulling BS stunts like this Camaro driver.

I obviously don't agree with people saying such drivers are the "cause" of the accident. The speed of that outer lane was not ridiculously slow. You didn't see the pick-up driver throwing his arms up in the air about the hidden car in front. Neither the pick-up nor the dash-cam car were veering side to side trying to see what the massive hold up was. The "cause" of the accident is impatient people, in this case the Camaro driver. They are the ones making the rash decisions. There is no one else to blame.

Agree. Though it seems like there's a wide chasm of opinions as to what is 'reasonable'. People passing at 5-10 over shouldn't be forced to rapidly accelerate because some impatient idiot wants to suddenly pass at 30 over.



As was said earlier, right up until the point of brake check the pick-up driver had done nothing wrong. I don't recall seeing brake lights (did they just take their foot of the accel? not important though). I ask you to put yourself in the pick-up driver's position. The Camaro person flies by your right side, tried to force their way in front and nearly runs you off the road. Then jumps in behind you and tailgates immediately. Do you allow their behaviour to bully you into driving how they want you to (noting no one else behind you was trying to impose their will on you - because you weren't at fault), do you keep driving at the same speed you were driving, or do you impose some counter-measures? Option 1 is weak and endorses the behaviour of the Camaro driver. Option 2 is in my mind the best course of action but takes a lot of patience, which many don't have. Option 3 can (in this case) be dangerous but it not unexpected. I believe there would be some proponents of the 'pass or get out the way' crowd that would invoke a bit of street justice if put in the same position. Doesn't make it right, but I'd understand it. If I was dash-cam driver and saw a brake check I'd also tolerate being impeded for a short period to see Camaro get their just desserts. But in this case, with the mentality of Camaro, it was the wrong decision.



Slower than what, the speed limit? The free speed of traffic? The speed is unknown as is the number of cars behind; but it's fair to make some assumptions. Maybe the free speed was 5-10 more than the OJ. The line was getting past the semi's, so it appeared that everyone other than the Camaro driver was content to wait until OJ had passed the semis and moved over. They might not have been thrilled about it (fair enough), but they were content enough to be patient. But Camaro couldn't want that long. It's these people who think their time is more important than those around them and are prepared to pass at all costs that put everyone's lives at risk. They are the risk takers.

I don't understand the logic with people deciding on their own speed limit but it's obviously varies by country (and it would seem even by state within a country). The problem seems to when this approach occurs in environments that have regulated limits, because there are always going to be a mix of people who decide to drive at their own comfortable speed (self regulate), and those who tend to gravitate towards the signs that state a 'regulatory' limit. Seems like you guys would be better served either having clear autobahn environments or agreeing to comply with limits. The middle ground (self regulation in a regulated environment) doesn't work well.

But when it comes to individuals deciding what rules to follow, where do you draw the line? Do you run reds when it's clear? Roll stop signs all the time? Park in clearways etc? The road environment is not really a place where you want to permit free will, because everyone's opinion differs. 34,000 lives per year is evidence of that. Patience is the best attribute a driver can have.

There's not a chance in hell that the person blocking a lane is more dangerous than the person speeding.

I'd disagree with this. Driving is a ballet and is all about the flow of traffic. Watch a car race where speeds are 200+ MPH. The "Dangerous" people on the track are the ones that don't follow the flow of traffic, not the speeders.

The flow of traffic regardless of speed is that the left lane(s) are used for passing. When you block the passing lane you cause the person to slow down. Even if they do so in a safe manner and safe distance you end up causing a chain reaction thru the line of traffic that unless everyone in that chain are perfect drivers eventually ends up with someone slowing suddenly causing the most common automobile collision, rear end collision.

The flow of traffic and law in many places is, stay left unless passing. When people are blocking the flow of traffic by reaming in the left lane causing people to pass on the right or simply blocking both lanes with another car, they are, IMO, more dangerous then a column of cars driving over the speed limit but doing so with the flow of traffic.

I'm not a big speeder these days. I drive in the right lane and let people pass. When I pass someone I go around and pay attention to people coming up behind. I speed up to get in the right lane to prevent them from slowing if at all possible. When in large groups of cars, in cities and multiple lanes, I drive the speed of the traffic regardless of what it is because that is FAR safer then driving 10-15 MPH below the flow of traffic speed. Anyone who has driven in large groups and came up in a slow moving vehicle would know this.

~Matt

The problem is people not appreciating that they are behind the wheel of machines that I believe still kill more Americans than anything other than disease.

Heart disease, cancer then accidents. Makes sense if you think about. I probably know 10X more people that have died from heart attacks and cancer then I do who have died in car accidents or any accidents. This becomes more and more true the older you get :-)

~Matt

he Camaro person flies by your right side, tried to force their way in front and nearly runs you off the road.

He had his blinker on and even though he's an ass for passing on the right the entire thing could have been avoided by the truck slowing and letting him in.

The truck driver is a douche, Camaro driver is a douche and when you have so much douchery in the same location it creates a critical mass causing a douchsplosion that always ends up with innocent bystanders getting hurt.

~Matt

The difference being that in almost every instance the traffic accident is completely avoidable. Think about it, 34,000 people per year whose time really didn't need to be up.

Before you start, I said 'almost' ;)

  

So, when you see someone driving "dangerously", you want to stay near them and antagonize them more?

So, when you feel someone is trying to "impose their will on you", you decide to really show them and impose your will on them. (Forcing them to slow down)

The pickup could have either let the Camaro in initally and backed away to stay safe. He and everyone behind would be one car farther back in traffic, but safe.

Or he could have blocked him like he did (which I don't really have a problem with, the Camaro should have gone behind and ahead of the dash cam guy since there was a decent gap there), but kept up with the car in front of him and then moved over to the right lane as soon as possible (which is the law anyway). He wouldn't have been delayed at all, and everyone would have stayed safe.

It's odd that you are so adamant about not letting other people force you to speed up or move over, but think it's "just desserts" to force them to slow down.

Just a regular day on the CA Interstate 5 in the Valley.

Every time I drive this stretch, I encounter several dozens of "Camaro" drivers, and luckily less of the angry, stoned or sleep-deprived farm-workers in their 'pickups'.

But yeah, it is just the normal crazy for I 5, and every time I drive that stretch, you bet my dash cam is running nonstop.

That bloke with the camera was lucky. He was closer than he should have been. He should have dropped back. If something had happened causing the pickup to lock up. He'd have rear ended the camaro, be had no exit to the right due to the truck.

I'd loved to have seen video of the followup conversation.......

The difference being that in almost every instance the traffic accident is completely avoidable.

A significant portion of heart disease and cancer can also be avoided by a change in lifestyle. If we all were perfect human beings with no faults or bad habits more then likely more of us would die of old age.

What point are you trying to make that people should live their lives more perfectly or that driving in the left lane slowing the flow of traffic is perfectly acceptable? To some degree I completely agree with the first option but I also think that if a person wants to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day or drive 70 in a 65 both are personal choices that they should have the personal freedom to choose and that it is safer for both of us if I don't take the cig from his mouth or attempt to block both lanes or make him pass on the right.

~Matt

For whatever it's worth, this occurred on I-90 in/near Batavia, New York. The Camaro driver had a BAC of .19, had no valid driver's license, and was arrested, charged and then indicted. From the third link: "(Camaro driver) Thapa has now been indicted on six counts of second degree reckless endangerment, DWI, aggravated DWI and felony aggravated unlicensed operation." The guy with the dashcam says he saw the Camaro driver driving erratically 40 miles earlier (I assume it's the Camaro driver, because the dashcam driver quote includes the vague pronoun "him" in an article about the Camaro driver).

http://www.news5cleveland.com/...houlder-causes-crash

http://www.syracuse.com/...harged_with_dwi.html

http://www.wkbw.com/...using-crash-indicted

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War is god

On my drive to the store on my way home from school today, I got on the freeway where it is a 60mph zone, and then was sitting pretty in the right lane doing 66-67, then as I see some slower traffic (just a handfull of cars) ahead I move to the left (completely clear behind me), and I'm slowly catching them, and then right as I was near them the speed limit changed up to 70, and the ten or fifteen cars in a pack that I'd just caught all slowed down to 55. For no. Damn. Reason. And they stayed that way.

This has nothing to do with the conversation except that I don't mind (safe) speeders, and hate too slow of traffic.

Now excuse my while I go re install my exhaust manifold, carbs and entire fuel system, new exhaust, and pull the radiator instead of doing homework.

Post pics.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Will do, soon. It'll be a few days before it's done due to the fact that I got some completely incorrect gaskets for some spots on the engine block so those will be in and hopefully big progress happens Thursday. Will post pics of current disassembled stage as well as parts probably tomorrow.

Was just out in the garage snapping some quick photos, and will either post them here with some little blurbs about the process so far, or at the risk of derailing a thread (ha! That's never been done before) and being publicly flamed, i'm debating starting a new thread and just updating it with stuff as it happens, any input?

Regardless, I ain't editing photos (for now) and you get what you get!
(Unless you wanna see something specific, then i'm more than happy to oblige)

Start a new thread.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I get home from school at 12:30, I'll get it up then

BOOM.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

This old chestnut? ;) is this meant to imply some sort of 'case closed'? We've had those laws for years.

Interesting things to come out of that link:

The person creating the bill said it was done for two reasons, both made reference to persons driving under the speed limit. Note the word limit, not operational speed or any other measure. Much of the debate here seemed to be people passing at 0-5, even 10 over. By their (your link) own words those drivers aren't the issue and the law doesn't apply to them if they're passing.

I also found it interesting when reference was made to unsafe passing on the right. I don't see why it's any less safe. Indeed your visibility is improved because you don't need to turn your head as far to check blind spots (foreign concept to many) and the B pillar fills up proportionately less of your peripheral vision.

Some people seemed to think I was condoning just sitting out in the fast lane on empty carriageways. Those people lack reading comprehension.

Society these days has been groomed to blame others. Slow drivers are little more than a nuisance. We are meant to keep a safe distance to vehicles in front. You're meant to be able to brake in time for a stationary object. So people claiming a car doing 10-20 slower than them is a hazard probably shouldn't be on the road any more than the fool pottering along in the fast lane.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Too predictable. I suspect this has become your go to meme for me, much like the moose poking its head in the window for BLeP?

I find your perceptions of me highly amusing. So be it. I can live with that. There's a lot worse to be called!

The whole issue is less about danger than clogging up the lanes. I've been up and down the i95 in NJ three weekends in a row, driving about 1.5 hours each way each time. I can't tell you how many morons there are sitting in the middle and left lanes with nothing to their right. They cause everything to clog up and slow, simply because they're too damn lazy to change lanes. And so often you have no choice but to pass them on the right, which is fine as a temporary solution sometimes but not ideal of course. They're moronic because they don't even know they are breaking the law.

Sadly the police rarely do anything, although I did once see a NJ cop drive for about 2 miles behind someone sitting in the fast lane before pulling them over, hopefully to ticket them. Clearly they never look in their mirror. Even the signs saying "keep right unless passing" are normally posted over on the right side, so the people who actually need to read it, don't see it!

Great response, and I agree 100% with what you say. Many have however tried to sell it as a hazard issue.