2:20am. I know, I'm wired. Today will suck.

JFC, leave it to the engineer to overcomplicate shit (don't worry, I'm in Public Works as well, surrounded by engineers every day).

One more time, regardless of what the posted speed limit is, it's painfully obvious to darn near everyone else here the guy in the left lane who insists on going 10+mph slower than everyone else is the biggest source of problems. Whether the prevailing flow is 75 in a 65 zone, or 60 in a 55, or 80 in a 50 is still beside the point. Zag when everyone else zigs, and shit hits the fan.

I've taken multiple long road trips across the West (OR-WA-ID-NV-UT-WY-CO, etc), and the funny thing is the actual traffic speed/flow on the Interstate is pretty much the same across all the states even though the posted limit varies from 65 to 80 (not counting urban areas). The reality is there's a 'natural' asymptotic speed based on the highway design, pavement surface, and typical vehicle/driver combo so that only very rarely did I find that people kept driving the same X mph over the limit as the limit increased; IOW, somewhere around an 80mph limit (hate to give credit to Utah, but apparently their engineers are willing to acknowledge the obvious), very few cars are still speeding anymore. I'm not saying we *should* abolish speed limits on open highways, just saying that in my observation they are kinda pointless other than presenting a ticket revenue opportunity. Insisting on a 65mph limit is about like trying to make water flow uphill.

I agree a person like that is likely to cause an accident. But what people and myself are saying is it can also be caused by a person that causes everyone else on the highway to have to change lanes and break by consistently driving slower than everyone else. We are talking about 2 different scenarios.

This. The speed limit is often (mis)stated as the minimum. You can hear it often in conversation when a person is complaining of slow(er) drivers only doing the speed limit.

Drivers don't 'have' to do anything. There is always a choice. They let this work them into a frenzy (I've felt it too), lose their sensibilities and choose to drive erratically.

Empty freeway? Get the F out of that lane. Freeway at moderate to high capacity, boo F-ing hoo to those who want to speed.

I think our positions somewhat overlap but I appreciate the manner in which you discussed it.

When I was growing up we were traveling on some highway. Speed Limit was 55 mph. Everyone was probably driving 65 to 70 mph. My father drove the speed limit. He was pulled over and told to either keep up with traffic or find another route as he could possibly cause an accident. Trooper was 100% right.

I don't proclaim to be the smartest person in the room Chief. Conversely, your thinly veiled attempts to patronise me under the guise of humour appear to show you think you are.

I pity the person/org who you're billing your time to at that high hourly rate whilst you surf ST and tell me how to do my job?

Tell you what, I won't try and tell you how to defend workers rights in the same light that I won't pay much attention to a lawyer telling me about highway engineering and road safety.

I know you're a smart guy, but with all due respect those links were ordinary at best. Next time send me something from FHWA or USDOT. But not now, I'm going to bed. You get back to doing what you do best and ignore this pesky engineer from down-under. I respect your right to have an opinion on this. I just happen to disagree and I'm quite comfortable with my position. Evidently so are you. It's a stale mate.

Have yourself a pleasant day.

Those "ordinary" links were found in 30 seconds. You have had a few days now and have been unable to proffer anything in support of your asinine position.

So I challenge you again - put up or shut up because your personal belief carries no weight.

Or continue to look the fool. Your call ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

"I don't proclaim to be the smartest person in the room Chief. Conversely, your thinly veiled attempts to patronise me under the guise of humour appear to show you think you are."

Conversely, telling someone they are trying to patronize you and calling them "chief" says more about you and your feelings of insecurity than it does about other people.


And yet there is no rebuttal with data other than a personal attack. Information or data isn't always what a person says but also what they refuse to provide, say or admit.

Thus far, all you have done is the classic "argument from authority." "I'm a highway engineer and know better than you" is really all you've provided. People have posted numerous studies, yet you poo-poo them and cast them aside and instead ask for studies from elsewhere. And yet...I don't believe you have proffered up a single study or reference to bolster your own position. Finally, you continue to argue that only those passing on the right are responsible for any accidents, completely ignoring the fact that a lane blocker is also making a conscious decision to create the unsafe condition in the first place.

ETA: Oh, and here are some facts for you: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/...ewPublication/812409

Note that the stats are from USDOT. You have been throwing around "speed kills" as if it is the primary reason for fatal crashes, when in fact non-speeding causes are the majority (70% to 30%). Secondly, the entire argument in this thread has revolved around interstate driving, and there are very few (for a country as big as the US) interstate related speeding fatal accidents; the vast majority are on non-interstate road ways.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Is he from down under? Do they normally drive on the left instead of the right like here in the US?

A colleague of mine who lived in Germany said there is one big difference between American and German drivers. American drivers feel like they are driving the one safe and efficient speed and that anyone going faster is a crazy and anyone going slower is an idiot. American drivers might sit in the left lane blocking traffic because they think they are going "fast enough" and everyone behind them are being unreasonable while drivers held up by slower traffic put other drivers at risk by tailgating and passing unsafely because they feel entitled to go faster than all the slowpokes. German drivers cooperate and respect each other regardless of their speed. German drivers don't resent being momentarily held up by a slow truck or someone flying by them much faster than they are willing or able to drive. In the US left lane discipline varies greatly by region. In some areas drivers are pretty good about using the left lane for passing and moving over while in other areas drivers drive whatever speed they like in any lane they want. I haven't driven them for a while so it may no longer be the case but the two fastest stretches of US road I drove were I35 between Gainsville, TX and Norman OK and I20 East of Dallas. I used to get passed like I was standing still when I drove my old Volvo 240 wagon its top speed of ~85MPH and yes I stayed in the right lane.
I think speed limits are too low in rural areas. In Texas the highest speed limit is 85MPH but there are areas where people drive a lot faster with impunity because law enforcement simply couldn't ticket everyone who speeds. I think a more reasonable speed limit in rural areas would be around 100MPH.

Let me resolve this for everyone. As payment, send ice cream. No, Power Bars. Who am I kidding? Send ice cream.

If everyone drove the speed limit exactly - this wouldn't be an issue. But, most people are going to exceed the speed limit. It may increase accidents - but it is a fact of life. Most people exceeding the speed limit manage to do so without endangering anyone else.

However, since it is a given that people will exceed the posted speed limit - dangerous situations do occur when someone chooses an arbitrary maximum speed and determines that they are going to stay in the left hand lane as long as they are doing their chosen speed limit.

I think it is safer to let the speedy drivers pass than to block the left lane so that they are all congregated and impatient, no?

So, in your mind. If someone gets on the highway, and camps out in the left lane at 45 mph (posted minimum). Everyone should just line up in the right lane and go 45 mph also, since it's "aggressive" driving to pass on the right. The one jackass at 45 mph sets the speed for everyone?

If the typical speed on the highway is 75-80, except for trucks that might only be able to do 65. The guy doing 70 in the left lane is an ass. No, he isn't forcing anyone to change lanes and pass on the right, the whole highway could slow down to his speed, but in reality, if 'everyone else' is going 80, he's the problem, and he is causing people to change lanes and pass on the right.

Those people should be ticketed for impeding traffic, much like the cops try to ticket cyclists.

That's fair enough that your links were based off a 30 second search. This is just an online forum. I found your links myself off the same type of search. Likewise, post #93, which evidently all the detractors missed, provided a link based off a similar 30 second search "leading causes of traffic accidents USA". They were dominated by legal firm type posts but they were in line with each other and matched broad causes from local links. Note the thread was just over one day, not 'several days'. Top three are almost universally:

1 Distracted drivers
2. Speeding
3. Alcohol

No mention of lane hog in the 25 listed in my earlier link.

The problem (you and I will both have) with trying to search for statistics on lane hogging is that I doubt it will ever show up in a statistic. Therefore the links become opinion pieces. Compare this with causes which are based off statistics. There are several reasons it (hogging) won't show up. For one the lane hog is generally not involved directly. If they are it goes down as rear end accident thus 'tailgating', and it's always the tailgaters fault (unless hog goes into reverse). Otherwise it might flow into unsafe lane changes etc, which again, comes down to the individual making that unsafe lane change. By the time police arrive to assess the crash the hog has gone and it becomes anecdotal which can't be captured in statistics.

The closest type of accident that would be recorded is the swerved to avoid animal, but there's a big difference between the two. It's not like a hog appears out of nowhere.

At the end of the day the most a hog does (to causing accidents) is generate frustrating. That in itself is not a direct cause of someone else driving erratically. They can get upset but then they either choose to remain in line patiently, change lanes with due diligence or change lanes recklessness. The first two choices won't result in an accident. The third might, but that's on the faster driver, not the hog. We all seem intent in blaming others for our poor choices.

I've sided with the general position of the group here in saying they are a pest. I don't do it. Our disagreement comes from whether they cause accidents. I've never seen them show up in actual stats, but as indicated above it would be hard to capture. Even then they may be a contributing factor, but not the ultimate cause. I've also said I have no sympathy for speeders who complain about it. Because speed is a leading factor, almost always top 3.

Spot - here's a hint, when stats compare one variable (speed) against 'all other' variables, that's an indication it's a significant variable. Interstates are some of the safest roads due to separation of opposing traffic and removal of at-grade intersections, that's why they may not appear in lists of worst locations. Your link did contain commentary along the lines that certain states speed was more of an issue because of long deserted rural highways where a lack of congestion led to higher speeds. Congestion is the friend of road fatalities for a reason: speed reduction.

With that I'm late for work.

You still haven't linked to any studies supporting your position.

That might help your position ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

To clarify, which position that I'm taking do you take objection to?

The position you have taken in opposition to mine ... and pretty much the position of every other person in this thread ... and everyone on the road who has half a brain ...

... except for those driving Miss Daisy in the left lane ...

... like you.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That slow drivers mixing with speeding drivers in the left lane aren't the direct cause of accidents?

Won't happen. That stat doesn't exist for reasons I've explained. If you fail to comprehend that, I can't help you.

Your continued obsession to belittle me doesn't make you any more credible.

Until the next thread...

I don't belittle. Sometimes the truth hurts ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That's cute. Thanks for the laugh.

I'll stay aligned with those on the road with a full brain then.

It sure as shit doesn't sound like you will ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Posting from my phone, so who knows if this link will work. Video of two jackasses proving that it takes two to tango.

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War is god

Camaro driver is a complete, total, and unadulterated idiot. Pick up truck driver is a complete asshole with a small penis who is in a miserable marriage and a dead end job with no sense of control over anything in his life, so he felt like a big man controlling the flow of traffic for a few minutes until he fucked with the wrong idiot.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I agree with every word you wrote.

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War is god