That raises an interesting legal/social question. (JSA, weigh in here if you would.) A lot of people are pointing to laws that say, "don't travel in the fast lane," but the people pointing to those laws are, in most cases, breaking the laws themselves by speeding. Each party (the speeder and the traveler) is contributing to a danger, whether they realize it or not.

So, question: If all are breaking a law (some by traveling in the left lane and others by speeding, but all are exceeding the speed limit), then what right do some (the faster drivers) have to say to others (the travelers), "You must not prevent me from breaking the law to a greater extent than you are breaking it?"? Or put another way, what right do the speeders have to demand, "You must take steps to enable me to break the law to a greater extent than you are breaking it."? The converse applies equally and incontestably to those of the travelers who are trying to impose their own notion of a speed limit upon the others (of which I believe someone in this thread has falsely accused me).

Or is this an issue to which the law does not extend, but rather it becomes an exercise in... what's a good term? Culture? Custom? Mores? Simply demanding that others conform to the findings of whichever traffic study one believes has gotten it right?

Someone observed that many roadways are saturated with vehicles so not traveling in the fast lane is rendered impossible. I don't know where the other posters live (Cincinnati, for all I know), but here in Southern California there is, except for the most off hours, simply no safe place to absorb all the non-passers. So is the law against traveling in the fast lane rendered inapplicable except at those times, either by its own terms or by the reality that the fast lane no longer is?

Frankly, I think everyone's guilty.

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War is god

Deciding that 80 mph is an appropriate speed to maintain in the left lane even if you're not passing is no different than those who decide that doing 62 is an appropriate speed to do the same thing.

I recall being scared to death the first time I drove on an Autobahn. I didn't yet realize that most people drive only 75-80ish, and it's fine, and it's the ones with their high beams on to be wary of.

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War is god

Agree. That is essentially what I wrote, right?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

How so? It's illegal to do 80 but not illegal to do 62. 50, sure, but 62 seems a reach.

That said, anyone who does 62 in the fast lane (without traffic ahead of them) should be shunted aside. 75 too, for that matter.

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War is god

There was a case here in Maryland many many years ago where in the middle of the night an excessively speeding drunk driver ran into the back of a vehicle merging onto the beltway and the vehicle that got rear ended was charged with not merging with traffic properly.

More on point with this thread, the Washington Post did an article that showed a driver who felt like 55 in the left lane was proper was involved in like 18 accidents on the beltway. Putz.

Study after study has been done on this and as JSA has pointed out earlier, and provided links as evidence, that one slower driver in traffic is far more dangerous than speeding.

Here is a great article on the "science" of traffic jams.. Pretty neat stuff..Describes what you are talking about. http://www.smartmotorist.com/...ne/traffic-jams.html

One part I found pretty fascinating and you will never ever see anyone do the right thing in this case: (there is a graphic in the article showing this)

ON THE LEFT: NORMAL DRIVERS WHO PACK THEMSELVES TIGHTLY TOGETHER WHENEVER THE TRAFFIC COMES TO A STOP. NOBODY CAN MERGE EXCEPT AT THE END OF THE JAM. NOTE THEIR LOW SPEED.

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ON THE RIGHT >>>>> DRIVERS WITH UNUSUAL BEHAVIOR: THEY ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO MERGE AHEAD OF THEM, AND THEY TEND TO MAINTAIN LARGE SPACES AHEAD, EVEN IF TRAFFIC SLOWS TO A CRAWL. MERGING IS EASY. SEE HOW MUCH FASTER THEY GO?
Traffic jams often occur on highways wherever two lanes must merge into one. Lanes of cars cannot merge if there are no large gaps between cars. Therefore, drivers who create large gaps between cars will ease this type of traffic jam.

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To ease this type of jam:

• Maintain a large space ahead of your car.
• Encourage one, two even three cars to merge ahead of you.
• If traffic slows to a complete stop, KEEP TWO CAR-LENGTHS OF SPACE OPEN AHEAD OF YOU.
• Never "punish" merging drivers by closing your gap.
• Other suggestions

Amazingly enough, it is not necessary that EVERYONE do this. If only a few drivers will maintain large gaps during heavy traffic, then merging traffic is not forbidden, and the situation in the left-hand diagram can be prevented.
Yes you're right, you cannot eliminate every problem by simply making a big gap in front of your car. When there are too many cars on the road, traffic slows down. But if we use these special driving habits, the smaller jams can be erased, and stop-and-go traffic can be smoothed out. Since many traffic jams are caused by merging lanes, many traffic jams can be improved by the actions of just one driver.

(As you can see, I shortened your post just to save space).

You are absolutely right. There is no "passing speed" or any type of leeway to pass. So, if the posted speed limit is 70, a driver is breaking the law by exceeded 70 mph to pass.

It raises an interesting legal question in states in which it is illegal to "cruise" in the left lane. There are states that have laws that prohibit travel in the far left lane unless the driver is passing. Thus, if the posted speed is 70 mph and a driver is going 70 mph in the far left lane, he/she is observing the speed limit law, but, at the same time, may be breaking the law regarding traveling in the far left lane without passing. But, the driver who travels 75 mph in the far left lane to pass the driver going 70 mph in the right lane is actually breaking the law by exceeding the posted speed limit while obeying the law in using the left lane to pass.

Now, that said, there is a general recognition and acceptance that 0 to 5 mph over the posted limit is acceptable. In most jurisdictions, anything 10 mph or under above the posted limit will be ignored. Yes, these people are breaking the law by exceeding the posted speed limit. But, there is a general understanding the permitting a little wiggle room, which allows passing, is safer and increases the flow of traffic, which is beneficial for everyone.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Maybe the story about the merging traffic is plenty on point with this thread. It would seem that nobody should be so charged unless there was much more to the story. Such as, did witnesses testify that the merging driver darted across lanes and into the drunk speeder's path in an ill conceived attempt to slow the drunk? If that's so, then Darwin's Law is more applicable than the Maryland Vehicle Code.

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War is god

Several years ago I spent a month driving on Long Island in NY. I appreciated the aggressive but predictable nature of the drivers there. People quickly accelerated when lights turned green and didn't hold up 30 people behind them just to let one person out. I thought it worked out really well for them and tried to adapt their driving habits while I was there.

Ok, so there's the issue: The culture of law enforcement is to forgive X mph over/under the posted limit, and I agree with you 100% on that premise. Therefore, it's an issue to which the law does not expressly reach because whatever number X represents is certainly unwritten. Rather, it's cultural because it's within an officer's discretion to decide whether your driving transgression has caused a danger of a magnitude that merits being stopped, and it's culture that informs discretion. It follows that it's that penumbral area between law and culture from which enforcement authority (not law enforcement, but, rather, safety enforcement?) springs. (I like to think with analogies: It's kind of like the difference between DUI and DWI. DUI [Driving Under the Influence] is the charge when you're not over the legal BAC limit, but you're impaired and, in the officer's opinion [which is informed by both scientific study and training, as well as the officer's culture of enforcement], you shouldn't be driving. DWI [Driving While Intoxicated] is when you're over the legal limit. I think. I'm prepared to be corrected.)

So, extending that discussion to the issue of who's less wrong between the speeders or the travelers-and therefore who "wins" the argument-is the preference for people getting the hell out of the way cultural, informed by traffic studies that show that slower traffic in a fast system contributes to accidents? Then, would the argument go, "accidents are deemed to be the worse of the multiple evils, so even if you're speeding then get out of the way of the more speedy?"

I can see that argument prevailing in a classroom, but I don't see it prevailing the real world where there frequently isn't anywhere safe to go to make room for the speedier. I'll argue that changing lanes into a congested No. 2 lane is more dangerous than holding up a faster speeder. Doing so increases the chances the driver in the No. 2 lane I just cut off will hit/tap their brakes, then we all know how that goes, et voila - a new traffic jam, even, with fender benders, all so that a faster speeder could get through until the next car impedes them in the fast lane.

Dinner beckons, then a workout. "See" you tomorrow.

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War is god

It depends on the speed limit - and maybe I should have included that. If the speed limit is 60, you're breaking the speed limit whether you're doing 62 or 80. So the question is who has the right to decide what the maximum speed should be without having to move over for people who want to go even faster.

Yep. Was agreeing with you.

Slower traffic moves to the right is the general rule of the road.

If you are going 70 in a 60 and someone is doing 80 behind you, you should move to the right.

The common feeling that most drivers have is that the people going slower than them are intentional self centered assholes and the ones going faster than them are reckless self centered assholes is wrong.

When everyone else on the road seems to be an asshole, then you might be the asshole.

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Suffer Well.

I'd still say you have a fucked up attitude.

Everyone should drive in such a manner that nobody else needs to slow down because of their driving. In your example, you need to shit or get off the pot with your pass....run it up to 85 or 90+ to hurry up and get over.

If everyone thought "will someone else have to slow down if do this maneuver, pass, turn out, etc?" if so then they wait until they can do it without impeding anyone else. My favorite people in the world are those that pull over to the shoulder on two lane highways to let faster people pass - everyone's day is better.

When I drive on the "fast" roads, D'Wife will sit in the back with D'Kid in shotgun, playing the DJ role

Sometimes D'Wife will ask why I have my signal on*, when there's no place to go

"See that guy? He's gonna go there, then this guy in gonna follow him, opening the space up for me over there, nice and comfy"

Predictable




* Yes, I realize that using the signal lets people know where you're going, giving them an unfair advantage, but ... so it goes

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

The thing is, when people start setting their own rules it becomes chaos. The speed differentials increase and this, coupled with self righteous attitudes, results in dangerous behaviour and accidents. As I'll post shortly, speed, lane changes and reckless driving are the causes, not the slower driver. That driver can cause you to be a bit slower to your destination but they don't cause you to drive dangerous, that's all on you.

Imagine you come up to a bunch of cars in lane 2 doing 10-15 less than you (we can say you're 'close' to the limit) so you move into lane 1. As you start passing a car comes up behind you doing 20-30 more than you. It's not really safe to merge in your opinion as the gaps aren't great. But the end of that queue is perhaps 300-400 yds. Do you increase your speed by 20-30 to get out the way or do you continue going at a speed you think is more than adequate to pass, perhaps not being comfortable at higher speeds?

To the guy behind you're a lane hog. You don't think you're doing anything wrong. Some in lane 2 might think you're a speeder because there are signs that say you're 10-15 over.

For those using autobahns as examples, I think one reason it might work well there is that most people know there are no limits and thus there can be massive differentials. In the States (and Oz, UK etc) there are posted limits. Many naively believe differentials aren't that great, or that people follow rules, so driving at or just under doesn't seem like a big deal. They don't expect to be holding people up. Passing at 2-5mph over might not seem like an issue to them but to you at 10-15 over they're a pain in the ass. Like you might be to the guy behind doing 20-30 over.

It works well on autobahns where people know and expect the differentials. It works well on sign posted highways where people largely adhere to the limits (bit of a fantasy I know). It works terribly on posted highways where everyone decides how much they can exceed the limits by.

People sitting left on an otherwise sparsely occupied carriageway are a curse, but for others to try and dictate terms to people making a pass, at any relative speed increase, is a bit rich.

I enjoy doing that gap creation in jams and it's exactly as the author writes, trying to arrive just as the car in front takes off the brakes so you can keep rolling. It actually becomes like a game. I encourage others to try it. Miss Daisy in the back loves it too ;) Though I do wonder if people behind appreciate and understand what I'm doing. Nothing is more frustrating than stop start travel.

As for the so called studies, I'm just going to respectfully disagree and say this thread is dominated by people letting their personal bias trump reality. Most professions have examples of 'academics' or experts who likewise are so passionate about something they can skew data to make their fantasy become reality. The cited references aren't even professional studies nor written by industry specialists

I just googled leading causes of traffic accidents; apologies I can't scroll up on this phone to get hyperlink

https://seriousaccidents.com/...es-of-car-accidents/ noting that a lawyer is also not necessarily an industry specialist, there are less ways to bend actual crash stats than to create a study to serve your needs - the previous links aren't even studies rather opinion pieces

1. Distracted driving 2. Speeding 4. Reckless drivers (Refers to impatient drivers) 11. Lane changes 14. Tailgating

No mention of lane hogs in top 25

The pattern is similar here (Oz). Distracted drivers and speeding top the list. Rear end accidents are the most common because, low and behold, people travel too fast and too close to the car in front.

JSA's previous links are, frankly, laughable. He is prepared to base his position on links referring to professional, technical wording like 'dumb' (first link, insurance), 'annoying' (second link, national public radio by a freelance scientist reporter who "stresses the science on this is not settled") and a rentacar organisation that makes a claim and then asks us to 'now imagine these slower cars are scattered across all lanes'. Seriously? There is one statement that is true, that is that speed differentials being greater increases the issue.

Show me studies that have micro simulation models supporting the argument and I might take someone seriously. Ive worked within state highway departments, been involved with road safety committees, studied traffic modelling and been in the road engineering industry for nearly 20 years. Being a lone wolf in this thread does not make me wrong, it just shows how passionate most people are about this and who let their emotions create irrational arguments.

Are lane hogs annoying? Hell yes. Are they the cause of accidents? No. It's the impatient speeders who tailgate, recklessly change lanes and set their own speed limits who are to blame.

One thing is certain, want to see someone at their worst? Put them behind the wheel of a car in traffic!

Yeah but isn't it like the chicken in the egg as far as a cause? I mean if traffic is generally flowing at 75-80 mph and you have one or several drivers who are driving slower and impeding the flow of traffic by driving in the left lane, it will cause people to have to change lanes and break on the busy highway. In my view yes both are breaking the law but it is far more dangerous in this case for those slower drivers to hang in the left lane.

Ha ha nice one.

People seem to think I'm advocating staying left at all costs. I'm not, never have.

I just have zero compassion for people that speed then complain about people getting in their way.

Blocking frustrates. Speed kills.

Isn't it 4AM or so where you are? Go to bed. ;-)

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War is god

The US Insurance Institute is "laughable?" Now THAT is laughable!!!

You have proffered nothing to rebut the statements made by multiple individuals and the links supporting that position.

Now, you may think you are the smartest guy in the room, but, I assure you, you are not. So, put up or shut up.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Not possible. I believe it has been proven again and again in that other forum that if a driver is forced to "drop back" after every car merges; the end result is that that driver will eventually start going backwards. thus ruining their chance to PR their commute home.

I can't be any more clearer about this. It is the person who chooses to go in excess of the speed limit, brake, tailgate, change lanes, accelerate and change lanes again who is the dangerous one. Not the person going at a constant speed 5 mph slower in the fast lane.

It's baffling that people can't put aside their emotions long enough to comprehend this. Of the two drivers, who is the predictable one? Who is the one making multiple decisions and speed changes?

They don't HAVE to. They choose to. Funny thing is you save very little time by being 'that' driver. It's classic hare and the tortoise, which shits the hare off even more.

There's nothing stopping Mr Fast from just going to lane 2 and chilling out with the rest of the flock. Obviously you all know how stressful it is to be held up by drivers and having to change lanes all over the place. I challenge you, next time you're on such a road make a conscious decision to just sit in lane 2 or 3 and don't pass. Just sit in there, play some great tunes and go with the flow. It's so much more relaxing to know there's no pressure to pass.

People are too oblivious to the risks that small speed increases have on the safety of them and those around them. The following is an old commercial from here that demonstrates it well for low speed, local roads.