efernand-

please read the 1979 sports illustrated article. you might retract your statement. here is a link:

http://www.cooltri.com/ironman_story.htm

I'd like to chim in on the sponsorship entry point that a few of you made earlier.

This was my first year of racing Ironman (Lake Placid and Hawaii). When I started on this journey, one of the lures of Ironman competition was what I perceived as the "democratic" or "everyday person" nature of the event. It is my firm belief that anybody can do one, if they put the time, energy, and passion into it. Further, everybody started at the same time, raced the same course, under the same conditions. Sadly, that's been changed in the past couple of years, between giving the pros a head start in the water so they didn't have to suffer through the body blows of the mass start and now they can essentially draft on bike with their new not-quite-ITU but pretty damned close positioning rules.

Within the age group ranks, a new pecking order of rules and status is emerging, which I personally think is contrary to what Ironman should be about. First, WTC comes up with this silly CEO Challenge crap to fatten up their profit margins in exchange for VIP treatment of some financially privileged few. It's pretty bothersome to me to watch the race tape on ESPN2 and see that they profile some rich guys living with silver spoons as opposed to some of the fascinating people I met in Lake Placid.

But what really takes the cake is the sponsorship entry situation in Ironman races. I am fully aware that this is a part of doing business that companies are looking for returns on their investment when sponsoring this race. Afterall, without their support, many of these races are not possible (though at $400+/entry, that gets a little debatable). But when the spots AND attention get focused on people who didn't go through the same procedures as the rest of us to get into the race, that's when it's wrong.

A couple of examples, and I'd love to get responses from the people I mention to hear their point of view on this:

1. Being my first Ironman, I stuck around under midnight at the finish at LP. Of all of the finishers, the race announcers made at the biggest deal about Tom Ziebart, who got in on a Gatorade slot. While I greatly appreciate and admire Tom's many contributions to the sport, I don't think it was necessary for him to turn the proceedings into a three ring circus by trying to focus the attention on himself by intentionally stopping at his condo and trying to finish at exactly 17 hours, and stealing our accolades from those who really needed and earned our support on what was a very tough day.

2. A second example is a couple who stayed at our bed and breakfast. They're regular mid of the packers and very enthusiastic triathletes. They got into IMFL at the last minute last year, because they were friends with someone who was a rep for a sponsoring company. I realize who you know does wonders in all walks of life, but is this really what Ironman should be about?

Since I've rambled long enough, I won't even get into the Degree/Steve Katai b.s. (which I'm sure has already been discussed extensively on this forum anyway).

Perhaps I'm jealous, but how come those of us that enter these things following the normal procedures and rules, get shoved to side for a lucky few?

My two (now probably three) cents.

I am not sure what to think about this. However, things have been getting fuzzy recently as to the hard and fast "rules" of the cut off time.

Originally, it was finish whenever. I think Walt Stack took over 24 hours years ago. He went home napped for a bit woke up at dawn went back to the point on the run course where he left off and then ran it in.

Then they instituted the midnight/17:00 hour cut off. I recall them being fairly strict with this year's ago. Midnight would come, and the power cord was pulled and they would start tearing down the finishline minutes after midnight. Then the whole last finisher celebration started to gather momentum to the point that the last finisher was getting more appreciateion and hype than the first finishers - Fair enough - and the whole party-at-the-finishline right up until midnight became a big deal, which is cool! This worked particularly well when the very last finisher and last person out on the course, almost on que, approached the finish line as the clock ticked down to midnight - the perfect and dramatic ending to a long day. Now as race fields get bigger and actual average race times get slower!( an interesting phenomenon to be addressed some other time) as fate, there are often quite a few people who are still out on the course at midnight and if the 17:00 cut-off has come and gone with no dramatic rush to the line right at midnight, it seems a bit anticlimatic. So, things seem to get extended a bit these days. The "last" finisher at IMC this year was after midnight.

It's a tough call. Are you going to tell the guy/gal who finishes at 17:02, in front of several thousand madly cheering spectators that they have NOT done the race?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

can you picture this?

A lone limping runner turning down Alii after midnight and the crowd:

a) lets forth with booing and hissing
b) turns their back in a demonstration against this shameful act.
c) blocks his progress like a civil rights protedt, shouting, "come back sub-10 or don't come back!"

Haven't been to Kona, but that's not the vibe at the IM's I have been to.

'The point is I don't know where you live but in our community that man would have came back a hero and would be called Ironman.'


I guess it's very subjective and he certainly had the guts and determination to be considered a hero by many but, and I may be on my own here, if set myself a goal which includes a time clause and don't finish within that time I don't consider it a success, however ill prepared or unlucky I was.

It may be that he just aimed to finish but just finishing is no longer the big cigar it once was.

No but they aren't an official finisher.

I was at IMFL this year, and got to watch the 16:30+ finishers coming in. It was a very inspiring thing to watch. Maybe they planned coming in at 16+, maybe something happened out there and their race didn't go as planned . But they were going to make it: wrestling down that frellin' beast of a race and making it to the line before everything turned back into pumpkins.

Well put and I say call him an Ironman and "my hero".

Great Floridian you get 17:30 right? So if time is really what makes you an Ironman then what gives? So far I've read complete horse crap. 17 hour cut off time is because the volunteer and race staff need to go home sometime... If I had been there to give him my medal I would have.

wow. thats profound. comparing great floridian standards to kona. get a clue dude. people are busting their asses trying to get to Kona and then someone gets an entry handed to him. perhaps a 17 hour finish hits a little to close to home to you, but your opinion isnt horsecrap, its yours and u have it for a reason.

Cowman Amooha aka Ken Shirk IS an IRONMAN. In recent years he does race bandit and does not cross the line. He was however, racing Ironman Canada and Hawaii 20 years ago as an official entrant within the time limits. He's actually a rather talented athlete. He's credited with being one of the first guys to complete the Tevis Cup on foot when the snow was too high for the horses... a race we now know as the Western States 100. The dude is a stud, and an IRONMAN.

My two cents: the cut-off is 17 hours. It was when the day started. Those were the rules of the day. To complete an "iron distance race" is to go 140.6, but please don't be putting the mdot bumper sticker on your car. To be "an Ironman" is to finish an Ironman branded race within the time limit, now you can have the bumper sticker from the race. (sucks for the old guys at Australia) To race "the Ironman" is to complete Hawaii by what ever means were available, NOW you can go get the mdot for your car. If the rules, like 'em or hate 'em, allow for lottery and sponsor slots, so beit. To finish 10 hours or 16:59 doesn't make a person any more or less of an Ironman, but 17:01 does not accomplish the feat.

in 1978 12 people completed the "Ironman". I was the last person to do it in less than 17 hours and I finished 8th.

There was no qualifying and the entry fee was $5 (of which $2 was returned because there was left over money).

The fact that the race has become so big that the organizers have to institute a cut-off time to make it manageable doesn't take away from the accomplishment of someone who takes a little (or a lot) more than 17 hours to do the race, if they did it at one go. If they and others want to think of them as an Ironman, despite not having achieved the "officieal cut-off time", so be it.

When the Kona race was transferred from the care of John Collins to others one thing he insisted on was that there always be room for the ordinary guy. This means there will always be some who get their entry "handed" to them through mechanisms other than qualifying. Sorry you begrudge them that opportunity.

I don't begrudge them the accomplishment and you shouldn't either.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Hey, if if an ordinary guy gets in that has paid his dues, no problem. I guess it all depends on what you consider ordinary. To me, ordinary is not someone that trains 3 months and gets in because he knows somebody. Just shows money can buy anything.

Broll writes: "if if an ordinary guy gets in that has paid his dues, no problem. I guess it all depends on what you consider ordinary. To me, ordinary is not someone that trains 3 months and gets in because he knows somebody. Just shows money can buy anything."

"Paid his dues" - exactly what dues were to talking about? To whom do we pay this dues? And, what could be more ordinary than someone who has only trained for 3 months? 2 months? No training - now there is your typical American.

And, I am sure even you know "somebody". Was there a particular somebody you were referring too? And, money can't buy anything. It can't buy immortality or good judgment or a whole host of things.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

There are athletes that have been at this for years trying to get a Kona slot who will probably always come up short. They sacrafice more time and money with entry fees and equipment (including powercranks) than someone who just gets a wild hair up their ass. Personally I would rather see someone that has paid these dues race at Kona than someone who knows a sponsor. Do I know anybody that has done something special for me ? Of course, friends save me a dime or two on products here and there, but I have never gained something for free that takes this much hard work. btw..the powrcranks comment is not in jest, two of my greatest friends and training partners have em, and yes, they are trying to get to Kona. peace.

For one thing,17 hours seems to be an arbitrary number and was a way to use midnight as a course closing, volunteer going home, road opening time. If the organizers had decided to start a 6:00am, the number would have been 18 hours. Since IM apparently considers these things as events and not races(competition), I think anyone who finishes is an Ironman. IMO, 17 hours is sort of ridiculous, anyway but that's another thread.
That being said, the World Championship RACE should be just that, a race or competition. Letting corporate sponsorships and lotteries rule would be analogous to allowing Coca Cola to put in a team of racers for the Olympic triathlon. Or Fox to let one of their employees pitch a game in the World Series.
Ordinary people are the Bill Bells and Madonna Bauders of the world who QUALIFY and they would satisfy John Collins' mandate.

Bob Sigerson

well said, and when John Collins made that request, Hawaii was the only Ironman. Now there are many of them to satisy the needs of the "ordinary" person.

AGREE

AGREE agin: D

I think the WTC and almost everyone considers the IM, and especially the Kona "event" to be a race in an event. Actually, several races in a single event when one considers the age-groupers.

While Coca-Cola may not be able to add athletes into the Olympics for their sponsorship dollars I think we can all feel certain they do get some perks that the rest of us can only dream about. And, there are battles going on right now about what "uniforms" (i.e., with what logos) athletes can wear in the Olympics.

That being said, if the World Championships were restricted to "qualifiers" they could probably close the course at 8PM, except for a couple of 70+ stragglers. Nobody would be at the finish line for them if there were a total of 5 finishers between 8 and midnight. IMHO, having those folks is part of the theater and part of what keeps this sport growing.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

RE: The "Michelin Man"

It doesn't suprise me at all that someone with that little actual training suffered and had a lousy race experience. What does suprise me is why he would want to publicize such an embarrassing report.

He has been keeping fit for the past few years by biking and running and last year even entered several Sprint races

At the halfway or turnaround point on the bike, Ron was in so much pain that he collapsed.

He blames this trouble on his lack of nutritional knowledge and no one to learn from, hence his biggest mistake.But when he got off his bike his legs wouldn’t support him and he couldn’t stand up.

Ron got to his feet but could only shuffle along when someone yelled, “You missed the cut-off time!”.

A minute or so into the run Ron realized he had left his salt tablets and Ibuprofen (much needed now) back at the run’s starting tent.

They didn’t know it, but you aren’t allowed to be accompanied by supporters. The official gave Ron a three minute stop penalty.

The whole story is one big mess - someone who got lucky and got to try something they weren't ready for. Kind of like someone saying "Well I wouldn't have crashed the helicopter if I had only had some flight training" or "I'm sorry the brain surgery didn't work - I never took that course" or "I'm sorry I lost all your money - I really don't know much about investing".

It really doesn't matter to me how someone gets in. It matters what they do with it. The "Michelin Man" should have at least learned the rules, and shouldn't make excuses about not having anywhere to turn to for nutrition advice. And really, if he needed the painkillers that badly, he should have turned around and walked back the 100 yards to get them.

This man just proves that 17 hours is quite a long time and one doesn't have to be some athletic God to just do this race. The key is being in some semblence of shape, pacing yourself, and, then, being willing to suffer big time.

It should be an inspiration to those who are better trained but "afraid" to try an IM because they think it is "too hard". Doing an IM is somewhat like child birth. Even though you may have suffered terribly during it (whether you trained for it or not), after it is over the benefits of having done it make it seem not so bad and many decide to do it again.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I agree that 17 hours is arbitrary and is a necessary evil in order to manage the volunteers etc. However, I think that we can expect that the same athletes from 1978 would be able to complete the races in a significant faster time (assuming of course that they were the same age and motivation) because of the better equipment and understanding of what is needed to complete the race. Put Haller in a wetsuit in 1979 and give him giant bright orange buoys to swim towards with tons of support in the water and Warren may never have won - or we may have had an epic battle to the finish.

The reality is that the race must be cut off somewhere. Has he done the distance - yes. Is that an acheivement worthy of respect? - yes. Is he an mdot Ironman? - no. Is he an ironman? yes.

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"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

Ironman is a Comic Book character.

Everyone that finished behind a guy named Peter this year are LOSERS.

Ironman Hawaii is a business.

Most of the replies here are tainted with self indulgence (which is typical of the self indulgent).

In August John Collins wrote in my 25th anniversary book at the pre-event dinner for Ironman revisited "welcome to the REAL ironman course!". Judy Collins completed that course on race day at about 4 in the morning. Judy is a stud! It was a tad over 17 hours but, there is no cutoff at Revisited so she's an Ironman right? It was on the REAL ironman course, so that's even more official, right?

IMHO the folks posting negatively on this string are a little taken by their own preceived importance. If Peter Reid crushes those folk in Kona are they ironmen? Maybe in a comic sort of way, huh? The WTC doesn't control my respect for a man, by some considerably difficult entrance decisions or what time limit considerations they pull from the hat of their convenience. The man in the XTRI.COM column is an IRONMAN and probably respects all you guys who finish ahead of him more than you'd know.

Frank,

17 hours isn't the issue for me. For some very well trained people that is very tough - for others a walk in the park. My issue was his lack of preparedness, and lack of knowlege of the rules, and his taking painkillers to get through it, and writing about how heroic his effort was BECAUSE of his lack of preparation.

I agree with you that a lot of people who have done the training should try to do an Ironman - I'm all for that.

Certainly you have some of your own perceived importance to think that your opinion matters right? Perhaps some psychoanalysis of your post is in order. Autograph seeking at a dinner? Not my cup of tea. IMHO I think I know where you are coming from and what this race is about to you. You will never understand where I come from (and others) on this issue, we are just two different people and thats ok.

Frank, I can see your point if Hawaii was the only IM out there but it was made a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP "RACE" by the WTC. I can't ask John Collins this question but were you perceptive enough to see the proliferation of Ironman events all over the world as there has been? By my count, there
are 15 m dot events other than Hawaii. Couldn't these corporations give their free spots to some other exotic location and leave those 500+ slots to qualified athletes to RACE in Hawaii. If they did so, some of the people on this forum who have worked their a**es off might be qualifying for te big show.

Bob Sigerson