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Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman"
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This morning, during the usual first cup of coffee cruise of the various triathlon related websites I happened upon an article on Xtri.com that really bugged me. The article is titled I, Ron.Man! by a writer named Rob Docherty and is about a guy who gained entry into IM Hawaii this year via a "sponsorship" slot, but failed to finish within the 17 hour cutoff (17:17).

The just of the artricle is that he is still considered an "Ironman" and was even told so by Bob Babbitt at the finish line even though he failed to finish the race within the 17 hour cutoff. I rarely feel the need to comment on things like this I read but this time I wrote the Author of the acticle, rob@xtri.com and stated my opinion that "to be considered an Ironman, you have to actually finish the race withing the confines of the rules, and in this case, a 17 hour cutoff". If time makes no difference then "why not take a week to finish". I also felt a need to comment on my views towards "sponsorship slots" and the notion that he did not earn his spot or even put forth the effort to lick a stamp and pay the $50 bucks or whatever it is to win a lottery slot. At the same time, he only trained a couple of months for it, (He started in mid July) so what do you expect?

Anyway, Rob Docherty rob@xtri.com wrote me back and was pretty hostile about it all. He said that if "he posted my email on his site I would recieve 100 emails against my view and maybe 10 for it". I thought that the this would be a good item for conversation for members of the spowtwitch forum. Feel free to write Rob Docherty with your opinion. rob@xtri.com

So, the question is: "is someone who fails to finish an Ironman withing the cutoff still considered an "Ironman"?

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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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In my opinion... technically, no. Your point about taking a week to finish is well-founded. If time doesn't matter, then I've done countless Ironmans, what with all the training I've done (woohoo! now... where do I get my MDot tatoo?).

Seriously, though, I you are right. I mean, there's a cutoff. He missed it. Technically, he didn't finish the race. However, I'm not gonna quibble over 17 minutes. I don't know where, between 17 hours and a week, you draw the line and say "that's it... past here, your can't really call yourself an Ironman," but heck, who really cares? This guy knows there's an asterisk there. He can call himself an Ironman, but officially, he really hasn't done it.

Frankly I disagree with Rob. I think you'd find the majority of actual Ironman finishers would side with you. Hell, I haven't finished an Ironman yet, but I'm on your side.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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I dont really care so much about your main question. If he wants to call himself an IM (perhaps with an asterisk next to it) thats fine with me. But you raise another point that i think i do agree with and i wondered what everyone else thought: IMH should not have a lottery. Period. I'm not sure what this "sponsorship" entry is, perhaps something like the community slot for fundraising, but i have less of a problem letting a few folks pay extra to race for a good cause. But IMH is the world championships. You should have to earn your spot. I was there watching and could spot a lottery guy before the race a mile away (dazed look, greatly higher bf %, no signs of high milage in leg muscles, no silly tan, etc.)
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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I like the fact there is a lottery and I don't really have that much problem with "sponsorship" slots or even him claiming to be an IM.

What gets me fired up is having someone get this kind of slot, one thousands of others would crawl naked through broken glass for and then kind of half-ass it. If you get a lottery, celebrity, e-bay, or sponsorship slot I believe you are obligated to give everything you've got to getting ready for the race out of respect for the venue, your fellow competitors, and the thousands of others that would have gladly gone in your place and busted their butts to finish as well as possible. If you can't do that then I think you should pass on the slot.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't the first few Ironman races take some competators more than 17 hrs?

There is a definite difference between someone finishing in over 17 hours and another finishing in 1 week. Looking at it from a logical binary perspective, yeah 17:01 and 24:00 or 48:00, are the same, DNF, but there is also the spirit of the race, and many people, much tougher than me (2002 IMFL finisher), have finished the distance in over 17 hrs.

Besides this, Joe Blow Coach Potato can go out and call himself an Ironman finisher for all I care, it doesn't change how I feel about the race or what I did, it was a personal journey and accomplishment that no one can ever take away from me.

That's how I look at these types of things....

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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i agree with your assessment, but i have to say the only reason i replied is the one problem i have with your post. it should read "you're still an ironman". this may have been a typo on the xtri site (i couldn't pull it up to check), but it bothers me, so i felt the need to comment. otherwise, you have my full support. i think the sponsorship slots may be acceptable, with the appropriate training time allowed (they allowed for Chan McCrae race last year for Timex), but i do think that the lottery slots are something of a cop-out. that said, i do realize it is incredibly difficult to qualify (i've tried), and many may never reach kona despite their desire and dedication, but as previously mentioned, it is the world championships. later,



mckenzie
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see a bridge . . . but I do smell a TROLL.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [Jack in Mi] [ In reply to ]
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{Didn't the first few Ironman races take some competators more than 17 hrs?}- reply

Yeah, but I don't believe there was a cut-off in those early races. I think one guy stopped for breakfast the following morning and finished in 26hrs. Seriously

As for this guy calling hilmself an Ironman, I say absolutely not. He didn't finish in the alloted time so all he is some guy who swam, biked and ran 140 miles. I have a lot of respect for his courage to keep on going but an Ironman he is not.

Hell, I finished my first IM in about 14hrs and was so dissapointed in the time, I didn't even consider myself an Ironman. Until of course I did it again and knocked 2 hours off.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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<<I'm not sure what this "sponsorship" entry is,<<

Every sponsor gets so many entries to divvy out as they wish. Gatorade, Timex, probably Dell. I met a guy (John Doe) in 2001 who got in on one of the Gatorade (I think) slots. His buddy was a non-triathlete who worked for Gatorade and got John Doe the slot. When asked, John Doe said he was a lottery pick since he knew that would be an easier explanation (and probably encounter less ire) than the sponsorship thing.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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You have reiterated my point. First, there wasn't a cut off in the early Ironman races - yet I don't know that anyone questions them as "Ironman finishers." So, someone arbitrarily sets a cutoff, and all of the sudden that changes everything? It just doesn't make sense to me. Look at average finish times across the board for different races, Florida has faster times than Hawaii. Does that mean that the 17 hr florida finisher isn't an Ironman?

Second, you say you don't consider yourself an Ironman from your first race, that's completely in your right since it was your race, and you knew what you did, it doesn't change anything about me or what I did, it's personal. There's a spirit there about toughness, resolve, focus, etc. that determines much if someone is an Ironman rather than some clock and the only person that really knows is the individual.

If you say differently, how can you justify the 17 hr cutoff rather than a 10hr cutoff or a 20hr cutoff, or a 12 hr cutoff, where is the line drawn and who gets to draw it?

For these reasons I feel it is pointless to argue whether or not someone is an Ironman based on finish time, there's just not enough information and too many variables. So let the WTC dictate who gets to be an official Ironman, and let the individual determine if they are an Ironman.

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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17mins after 17 hours is pretty miniscule. I would conider him an Ironman, he could of quit, be he kept going and finished.

A little animousity of how he got the spot?


-----------------------:)
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Kestrel Syndicate
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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I think what Rob and Bob were saying to this fella is that 'you have the spirit of an Ironman' and not really meaning that he is and Ironman. I read the article and how this guy fought like hell to get thru his day. He demonstrated the drive to complete the course. You, I and everyone else knows he didn't meet the requirements to be and Ironman.

my .o2


put the mettle to the pedal
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [Lone Racer] [ In reply to ]
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Well said. However, the 140.6 club will argue that he really is an Ironman... blah... blah... blah.

I think I'm going to modify my previous post by saying this. "Being an Ironman" depends on a lot of factors, and I think, is defined very differently by different people.

If we define Ironman by its brand, then you can't be an IRONMAN (TM) until you officially complete an MDot race in the allotted time.

If we define ironman in terms of the "spirit of Ironman," then several factors are gone. Who cares if its MDot? Who cares if its under 17 hours? There's a huge difference between being an IRONMAN (TM) and being an ironman.

Did the guy with a 17:17 embody the spirit of Ironman? You bet. He's an ironman. But by virtue of this performance, he is not an IRONMAN (TM).
Last edited by: steveperx: Nov 20, 03 14:17
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [Lone Racer] [ In reply to ]
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I may not, you may not and many others may not say that he's an Ironman because he failed to cross the finish line in the time allotted but all that really matters is that he believes he's an Ironman.

I thought an Ironman was someone that has conquered adversity and trying times while maintaining focus and drive when most would quit. If being an Ironman has come down to a clock then I’ll stay a "Person that likes to challenge themself".



"your horse is too high" - tigerchik
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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Babbitt comes from a time or maybe a school of thought that says ironman is an adventure that is all about camaraderie, not a race that is all about competition. I think most of us agree with Bob to some extent on that but you gotta draw the line somewhere. Bill Bell finishing in 17 hours is cool. Sister Madonna finishing in 17 hours is cool. Guys with one leg finishing in 17 hours is cool. An able-bodied forty-something man flying to Hawaii so he could finish in 17+ hours without mechanical or injury is just lame.

The thing is, would it be any less lame if he had finished in 16:58? I think not. The only difference would have been that he could have shown everyone on the internet how much he disrespected the race and himself.



________________________________________________

Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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I tend to agree with you 100%. I have done enough of these races (5) to know that many, many things can go wrong to lead someone to a 17 hour finish. Nutrition, cramps, wrecks, pulled muscles etc....But I know only after one year of tri's I could have "survived" an Ironman by walking the majority of the run. That wouldnt to me have been an Ironman finish. I waited until I knew I was ready to attempt to race the distance. To me, all of the people signing up for these races fully intending to walk 20 miles is watering down the accomplishment as much as Joe Sponsorslot. My two cents, now rip me apart!
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [Rich] [ In reply to ]
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>>The thing is, would it be any less lame if he had finished in 16:58? I think not. The only difference would have been that he could have shown everyone on the internet how much he disrespected the race and himself.<<

What a bunch of tossers you are! ~I~ was there in Kona and saw this guy finish. We were walking back to the condo, along with a few hundred other people (including a hell of a lot of fast finishers who had come back for the end), and we were right near the hot corner when he turned onto Alii Drive. Everyone is usually pretty quiet at midnight walking home and everyone is walking down the middle of the street since it's still closed off. As soon as Ron turned the corner, everyone in the street moved to the sides, stopped and started clapping and cheering him in. There was none of the "you aren't an ironman" or "you are disrepecting the race" AT ALL.

Should he have thrown his name into the hat? That's only for him and his company (who does with their slots however they please) to decide. You don't like it? Tough titties--tell the WTC about it, but it's their race and I'm sure Lew F. ain't gonna yank a few slots from the companies who put up the sponsorship money for the race.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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Quite frankly I could care less what people choose to call themselves. I'm sure there are people out there that call themselves "Ironmen" that haven't even done the distance. If you have such a low self esteem that you have to cheat (draft, cut the course, etc) and you still have the nerve to call yourself an Ironman, then that's your problem to deal with. In the end you're only lying to yourself. In my book, if you feel like you gave it your best effort and you are satisfied with your result, whether it was 10 hours or 17 hours (or 17:17) then you can call yourself an Ironman. Triathlon is, after all, mostly about challenging oneself and conquering inner doubts for most of us who will never be elites. If you work and accomplish something as big as doing that distance and you feel a sense of accomplishment for it, why shouldn't you reward yourself by acknowledging the achievement. Besides a t-shirt and finisher's medal, the sense of pride is really all we have to carry with us for our accomplishment. If I feel a sense of accomplishment for my 13:29 at Vineman then, damn it, I'm an Ironman in my mind. 10 hour finishers may scoff at me, but you know what- I didn't do the race for them. Anyway, I think that if this guy feels like he's an Ironman, he doesn't need Bob Babbitt or anyone else to validate his sense of accomplishment.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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This is a very good example of the common dumbing down of standards nowadays. For someone to 'qualify' to give themselves the 'exalted' title of 'Ironman' (tm) then surely they have to meet the standard set, which they accepted when entering the race. The accepted sense of 'being an Ironman' these days is that you finish the swim/bike/run in the stipulated time frames.

Can't fault his determined display of course but he didn't meet the requirements.

There's a striking similarity with the LA parents who complained this year that their kids weren't being allowed to graduate JUST because they grades weren't good enough.
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Weakening the standards [ In reply to ]
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Seems like people like to make exceptions to pretty solid rules now-a-days. What's 17minutes?? I work as a bomb disposal technicion and if I have 17 hours to diffuse a package and take 17:17 to do so...I'm history. I think 17 hours is plenty of time for a cutoff and if you don't make it, try again. Maybe they all should be like Ironman Australia and have a 15.5 hour cutoff??
Joe
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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I think the 17 minutes thing is one of those subjective issues (ie. the fellow at IM Fl who finished in 17:16 deserves to be called an ironman since he used a cane to get through the run/walk since he screwed up his knee and postponed surgery in order to race ... that shows guts and typical ironman like stupidity that most of us seem to possess..... but definitely an ironman). I agree with some that an able-bodied athlete under 45 should have no difficulty finishing in under 17 hours if they have done enough preparation. Maybe a solution for the sponsorship slots and lottery is a "show fitness" race of a 1/2 somewhere ... didn't Ms. Dell have to do this for her EBay slot? Do all lottery winners have to do this? Maybe this criteria of a specific time like for the Boston Marathon should be met prior to being eligible for the lottery or sponsorship slots. I don't have a problem with offering the opportunity to race in Hawaii to a few lucky lottery winners but I do think they should be dedicated triathletes (I know so many that work their asses off and just can't get fast enough to qualify) and not just some guy thinking it would be a cool thing to try some weekend in October. It is the world championships after all. If you just want to see if you can do one, pick one of the others.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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Is Walt Stack an Ironman?? 26:20:00 (or close to it) 73 years young, stopped for pancakes at the Ranch House before finishing. The morning newspaper already had the official results printed. The definition of an Ironman is in the eye of the beholder. Also, what about Cowman. He does the race unofficially every year. He is definitely an Ironman. Seeing the "horns" riding up the Queen K always brings thing into perspective.

just some interesting thoughts...
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with the crowd that thinks you've got to finish in 17 hrs to be an Ironman.

Can you call yourself a marathoner if you only went 26 miles?
Can you call yourself a 4 minute miler if you ran 4:01?
Can you say you bowled a 300 if you had one spare?
Can you say you pitched a perfect game if you only had one hit?
Can you say you played in 2,130 consecutive games if you called in sick for one of them?

It's one thing to embody the spirit of Ironman, or marathoner, or 4-minute miler. There are tens of thousands of athletes in dozens of sports who came so close to their goal that you just *know* they could have made it. There are many who have pushed themselves far beyond their limits but still didn't quite make it all the way. The deserve a lot of respect. But they don't deserve the title.

The rules are pretty simple, and the clock doesn't lie. 17 hours. I've got a lot of respect for the guy, and I'm sure he struggled harder to get to the finish than many other athletes that day. He certainly proved that he's *capable* of finishing in less than 17 hours -- anyone who gets that close can certainly do it. But he didn't do it.

Having read the article, this particular guy could easily have finished in less than 17 hours had he caught some luckier breaks and raced a little smarter. With what he knows now, he should sign up for another Ironman and earn the title officially.

Lee
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [taos111] [ In reply to ]
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A few years back I read Rec.Sport.Triathlon It became so negitive, everyone being so judgemental, so many thinking they were better than someone of lesser time/speed. That I came here. It was a great change. Now It's becoming the same way.
I remember hearing and have told the story many times. A great Marathoner was being interviewed I don't remember the name. He was told how tough he must be to run the marathon at that speed. He said " I'm not the tough one. I'm not the one with the most will power. See those people who still have hours left to run . They are much tougher than me. I can't fathom running that long. I'm finished and they still have many miles left." It really motivated me to run a marathon one day. I was young and not into running but from that day forward I always said I'll run a marathon one day.
Now I have run many and just finished my first Ironman. I tell this story to the beginners I work with.
I teach a free triathlon class at the local Y, Started a triathlon club, started a duathlon, teach swimming to beginners, Organized a local road group, Opened the first bike shop in town . We just had Lance Armstrong in town talking!
The point is I don't know where you live but in our community that man would have came back a hero and would be called Ironman.
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Re: Xtri.com article "your still and Ironman" [Micky] [ In reply to ]
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Cowman isn't an Ironman. He doesn't enter the event, he doesn't qualify, he doesn't win a lottery spot, he just runs it bandit. He dresses up like a cow so he can generate enough public support/sympathy so that the race organizers can't pull him from the course. He has never crossed the finish line, at least he has enough respect to not try that.
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