In my opinion... technically, no. Your point about taking a week to finish is well-founded. If time doesn't matter, then I've done countless Ironmans, what with all the training I've done (woohoo! now... where do I get my MDot tatoo?).

Seriously, though, I you are right. I mean, there's a cutoff. He missed it. Technically, he didn't finish the race. However, I'm not gonna quibble over 17 minutes. I don't know where, between 17 hours and a week, you draw the line and say "that's it... past here, your can't really call yourself an Ironman," but heck, who really cares? This guy knows there's an asterisk there. He can call himself an Ironman, but officially, he really hasn't done it.

Frankly I disagree with Rob. I think you'd find the majority of actual Ironman finishers would side with you. Hell, I haven't finished an Ironman yet, but I'm on your side.

I dont really care so much about your main question. If he wants to call himself an IM (perhaps with an asterisk next to it) thats fine with me. But you raise another point that i think i do agree with and i wondered what everyone else thought: IMH should not have a lottery. Period. I'm not sure what this "sponsorship" entry is, perhaps something like the community slot for fundraising, but i have less of a problem letting a few folks pay extra to race for a good cause. But IMH is the world championships. You should have to earn your spot. I was there watching and could spot a lottery guy before the race a mile away (dazed look, greatly higher bf %, no signs of high milage in leg muscles, no silly tan, etc.)

I like the fact there is a lottery and I don't really have that much problem with "sponsorship" slots or even him claiming to be an IM.

What gets me fired up is having someone get this kind of slot, one thousands of others would crawl naked through broken glass for and then kind of half-ass it. If you get a lottery, celebrity, e-bay, or sponsorship slot I believe you are obligated to give everything you've got to getting ready for the race out of respect for the venue, your fellow competitors, and the thousands of others that would have gladly gone in your place and busted their butts to finish as well as possible. If you can't do that then I think you should pass on the slot.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Didn't the first few Ironman races take some competators more than 17 hrs?

There is a definite difference between someone finishing in over 17 hours and another finishing in 1 week. Looking at it from a logical binary perspective, yeah 17:01 and 24:00 or 48:00, are the same, DNF, but there is also the spirit of the race, and many people, much tougher than me (2002 IMFL finisher), have finished the distance in over 17 hrs.

Besides this, Joe Blow Coach Potato can go out and call himself an Ironman finisher for all I care, it doesn't change how I feel about the race or what I did, it was a personal journey and accomplishment that no one can ever take away from me.

That's how I look at these types of things....

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

i agree with your assessment, but i have to say the only reason i replied is the one problem i have with your post. it should read "you're still an ironman". this may have been a typo on the xtri site (i couldn't pull it up to check), but it bothers me, so i felt the need to comment. otherwise, you have my full support. i think the sponsorship slots may be acceptable, with the appropriate training time allowed (they allowed for Chan McCrae race last year for Timex), but i do think that the lottery slots are something of a cop-out. that said, i do realize it is incredibly difficult to qualify (i've tried), and many may never reach kona despite their desire and dedication, but as previously mentioned, it is the world championships. later,

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mckenzie

I don't see a bridge . . . but I do smell a TROLL.

{Didn't the first few Ironman races take some competators more than 17 hrs?}- reply

Yeah, but I don't believe there was a cut-off in those early races. I think one guy stopped for breakfast the following morning and finished in 26hrs. Seriously

As for this guy calling hilmself an Ironman, I say absolutely not. He didn't finish in the alloted time so all he is some guy who swam, biked and ran 140 miles. I have a lot of respect for his courage to keep on going but an Ironman he is not.

Hell, I finished my first IM in about 14hrs and was so dissapointed in the time, I didn't even consider myself an Ironman. Until of course I did it again and knocked 2 hours off.

<<I'm not sure what this "sponsorship" entry is,<<

Every sponsor gets so many entries to divvy out as they wish. Gatorade, Timex, probably Dell. I met a guy (John Doe) in 2001 who got in on one of the Gatorade (I think) slots. His buddy was a non-triathlete who worked for Gatorade and got John Doe the slot. When asked, John Doe said he was a lottery pick since he knew that would be an easier explanation (and probably encounter less ire) than the sponsorship thing.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

You have reiterated my point. First, there wasn't a cut off in the early Ironman races - yet I don't know that anyone questions them as "Ironman finishers." So, someone arbitrarily sets a cutoff, and all of the sudden that changes everything? It just doesn't make sense to me. Look at average finish times across the board for different races, Florida has faster times than Hawaii. Does that mean that the 17 hr florida finisher isn't an Ironman?

Second, you say you don't consider yourself an Ironman from your first race, that's completely in your right since it was your race, and you knew what you did, it doesn't change anything about me or what I did, it's personal. There's a spirit there about toughness, resolve, focus, etc. that determines much if someone is an Ironman rather than some clock and the only person that really knows is the individual.

If you say differently, how can you justify the 17 hr cutoff rather than a 10hr cutoff or a 20hr cutoff, or a 12 hr cutoff, where is the line drawn and who gets to draw it?

For these reasons I feel it is pointless to argue whether or not someone is an Ironman based on finish time, there's just not enough information and too many variables. So let the WTC dictate who gets to be an official Ironman, and let the individual determine if they are an Ironman.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

17mins after 17 hours is pretty miniscule. I would conider him an Ironman, he could of quit, be he kept going and finished.

A little animousity of how he got the spot?

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SUPPORT OPERATION REBOUND:
http://www.operationreboundcalifornia.kintera.org/ejs3

Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

I think what Rob and Bob were saying to this fella is that 'you have the spirit of an Ironman' and not really meaning that he is and Ironman. I read the article and how this guy fought like hell to get thru his day. He demonstrated the drive to complete the course. You, I and everyone else knows he didn't meet the requirements to be and Ironman.

my .o2

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put the mettle to the pedal

Well said. However, the 140.6 club will argue that he really is an Ironman... blah... blah... blah.

I think I'm going to modify my previous post by saying this. "Being an Ironman" depends on a lot of factors, and I think, is defined very differently by different people.

If we define Ironman by its brand, then you can't be an IRONMAN (TM) until you officially complete an MDot race in the allotted time.

If we define ironman in terms of the "spirit of Ironman," then several factors are gone. Who cares if its MDot? Who cares if its under 17 hours? There's a huge difference between being an IRONMAN (TM) and being an ironman.

Did the guy with a 17:17 embody the spirit of Ironman? You bet. He's an ironman. But by virtue of this performance, he is not an IRONMAN (TM).

I may not, you may not and many others may not say that he's an Ironman because he failed to cross the finish line in the time allotted but all that really matters is that he believes he's an Ironman.

I thought an Ironman was someone that has conquered adversity and trying times while maintaining focus and drive when most would quit. If being an Ironman has come down to a clock then I’ll stay a "Person that likes to challenge themself".

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

Babbitt comes from a time or maybe a school of thought that says ironman is an adventure that is all about camaraderie, not a race that is all about competition. I think most of us agree with Bob to some extent on that but you gotta draw the line somewhere. Bill Bell finishing in 17 hours is cool. Sister Madonna finishing in 17 hours is cool. Guys with one leg finishing in 17 hours is cool. An able-bodied forty-something man flying to Hawaii so he could finish in 17+ hours without mechanical or injury is just lame.

The thing is, would it be any less lame if he had finished in 16:58? I think not. The only difference would have been that he could have shown everyone on the internet how much he disrespected the race and himself.

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Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

I tend to agree with you 100%. I have done enough of these races (5) to know that many, many things can go wrong to lead someone to a 17 hour finish. Nutrition, cramps, wrecks, pulled muscles etc....But I know only after one year of tri's I could have "survived" an Ironman by walking the majority of the run. That wouldnt to me have been an Ironman finish. I waited until I knew I was ready to attempt to race the distance. To me, all of the people signing up for these races fully intending to walk 20 miles is watering down the accomplishment as much as Joe Sponsorslot. My two cents, now rip me apart!

>>The thing is, would it be any less lame if he had finished in 16:58? I think not. The only difference would have been that he could have shown everyone on the internet how much he disrespected the race and himself.<<

What a bunch of tossers you are! ~I~ was there in Kona and saw this guy finish. We were walking back to the condo, along with a few hundred other people (including a hell of a lot of fast finishers who had come back for the end), and we were right near the hot corner when he turned onto Alii Drive. Everyone is usually pretty quiet at midnight walking home and everyone is walking down the middle of the street since it's still closed off. As soon as Ron turned the corner, everyone in the street moved to the sides, stopped and started clapping and cheering him in. There was none of the "you aren't an ironman" or "you are disrepecting the race" AT ALL.

Should he have thrown his name into the hat? That's only for him and his company (who does with their slots however they please) to decide. You don't like it? Tough titties--tell the WTC about it, but it's their race and I'm sure Lew F. ain't gonna yank a few slots from the companies who put up the sponsorship money for the race.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Quite frankly I could care less what people choose to call themselves. I'm sure there are people out there that call themselves "Ironmen" that haven't even done the distance. If you have such a low self esteem that you have to cheat (draft, cut the course, etc) and you still have the nerve to call yourself an Ironman, then that's your problem to deal with. In the end you're only lying to yourself. In my book, if you feel like you gave it your best effort and you are satisfied with your result, whether it was 10 hours or 17 hours (or 17:17) then you can call yourself an Ironman. Triathlon is, after all, mostly about challenging oneself and conquering inner doubts for most of us who will never be elites. If you work and accomplish something as big as doing that distance and you feel a sense of accomplishment for it, why shouldn't you reward yourself by acknowledging the achievement. Besides a t-shirt and finisher's medal, the sense of pride is really all we have to carry with us for our accomplishment. If I feel a sense of accomplishment for my 13:29 at Vineman then, damn it, I'm an Ironman in my mind. 10 hour finishers may scoff at me, but you know what- I didn't do the race for them. Anyway, I think that if this guy feels like he's an Ironman, he doesn't need Bob Babbitt or anyone else to validate his sense of accomplishment.

This is a very good example of the common dumbing down of standards nowadays. For someone to 'qualify' to give themselves the 'exalted' title of 'Ironman' (tm) then surely they have to meet the standard set, which they accepted when entering the race. The accepted sense of 'being an Ironman' these days is that you finish the swim/bike/run in the stipulated time frames.

Can't fault his determined display of course but he didn't meet the requirements.

There's a striking similarity with the LA parents who complained this year that their kids weren't being allowed to graduate JUST because they grades weren't good enough.

Seems like people like to make exceptions to pretty solid rules now-a-days. What's 17minutes?? I work as a bomb disposal technicion and if I have 17 hours to diffuse a package and take 17:17 to do so...I'm history. I think 17 hours is plenty of time for a cutoff and if you don't make it, try again. Maybe they all should be like Ironman Australia and have a 15.5 hour cutoff??
Joe

I think the 17 minutes thing is one of those subjective issues (ie. the fellow at IM Fl who finished in 17:16 deserves to be called an ironman since he used a cane to get through the run/walk since he screwed up his knee and postponed surgery in order to race ... that shows guts and typical ironman like stupidity that most of us seem to possess..... but definitely an ironman). I agree with some that an able-bodied athlete under 45 should have no difficulty finishing in under 17 hours if they have done enough preparation. Maybe a solution for the sponsorship slots and lottery is a "show fitness" race of a 1/2 somewhere ... didn't Ms. Dell have to do this for her EBay slot? Do all lottery winners have to do this? Maybe this criteria of a specific time like for the Boston Marathon should be met prior to being eligible for the lottery or sponsorship slots. I don't have a problem with offering the opportunity to race in Hawaii to a few lucky lottery winners but I do think they should be dedicated triathletes (I know so many that work their asses off and just can't get fast enough to qualify) and not just some guy thinking it would be a cool thing to try some weekend in October. It is the world championships after all. If you just want to see if you can do one, pick one of the others.

Is Walt Stack an Ironman?? 26:20:00 (or close to it) 73 years young, stopped for pancakes at the Ranch House before finishing. The morning newspaper already had the official results printed. The definition of an Ironman is in the eye of the beholder. Also, what about Cowman. He does the race unofficially every year. He is definitely an Ironman. Seeing the "horns" riding up the Queen K always brings thing into perspective.

just some interesting thoughts...

I'm with the crowd that thinks you've got to finish in 17 hrs to be an Ironman.

Can you call yourself a marathoner if you only went 26 miles?
Can you call yourself a 4 minute miler if you ran 4:01?
Can you say you bowled a 300 if you had one spare?
Can you say you pitched a perfect game if you only had one hit?
Can you say you played in 2,130 consecutive games if you called in sick for one of them?

It's one thing to embody the spirit of Ironman, or marathoner, or 4-minute miler. There are tens of thousands of athletes in dozens of sports who came so close to their goal that you just *know* they could have made it. There are many who have pushed themselves far beyond their limits but still didn't quite make it all the way. The deserve a lot of respect. But they don't deserve the title.

The rules are pretty simple, and the clock doesn't lie. 17 hours. I've got a lot of respect for the guy, and I'm sure he struggled harder to get to the finish than many other athletes that day. He certainly proved that he's *capable* of finishing in less than 17 hours -- anyone who gets that close can certainly do it. But he didn't do it.

Having read the article, this particular guy could easily have finished in less than 17 hours had he caught some luckier breaks and raced a little smarter. With what he knows now, he should sign up for another Ironman and earn the title officially.

Lee

A few years back I read Rec.Sport.Triathlon It became so negitive, everyone being so judgemental, so many thinking they were better than someone of lesser time/speed. That I came here. It was a great change. Now It's becoming the same way.
I remember hearing and have told the story many times. A great Marathoner was being interviewed I don't remember the name. He was told how tough he must be to run the marathon at that speed. He said " I'm not the tough one. I'm not the one with the most will power. See those people who still have hours left to run . They are much tougher than me. I can't fathom running that long. I'm finished and they still have many miles left." It really motivated me to run a marathon one day. I was young and not into running but from that day forward I always said I'll run a marathon one day.
Now I have run many and just finished my first Ironman. I tell this story to the beginners I work with.
I teach a free triathlon class at the local Y, Started a triathlon club, started a duathlon, teach swimming to beginners, Organized a local road group, Opened the first bike shop in town . We just had Lance Armstrong in town talking!
The point is I don't know where you live but in our community that man would have came back a hero and would be called Ironman.

Cowman isn't an Ironman. He doesn't enter the event, he doesn't qualify, he doesn't win a lottery spot, he just runs it bandit. He dresses up like a cow so he can generate enough public support/sympathy so that the race organizers can't pull him from the course. He has never crossed the finish line, at least he has enough respect to not try that.

efernand-

please read the 1979 sports illustrated article. you might retract your statement. here is a link:

http://www.cooltri.com/ironman_story.htm

I'd like to chim in on the sponsorship entry point that a few of you made earlier.

This was my first year of racing Ironman (Lake Placid and Hawaii). When I started on this journey, one of the lures of Ironman competition was what I perceived as the "democratic" or "everyday person" nature of the event. It is my firm belief that anybody can do one, if they put the time, energy, and passion into it. Further, everybody started at the same time, raced the same course, under the same conditions. Sadly, that's been changed in the past couple of years, between giving the pros a head start in the water so they didn't have to suffer through the body blows of the mass start and now they can essentially draft on bike with their new not-quite-ITU but pretty damned close positioning rules.

Within the age group ranks, a new pecking order of rules and status is emerging, which I personally think is contrary to what Ironman should be about. First, WTC comes up with this silly CEO Challenge crap to fatten up their profit margins in exchange for VIP treatment of some financially privileged few. It's pretty bothersome to me to watch the race tape on ESPN2 and see that they profile some rich guys living with silver spoons as opposed to some of the fascinating people I met in Lake Placid.

But what really takes the cake is the sponsorship entry situation in Ironman races. I am fully aware that this is a part of doing business that companies are looking for returns on their investment when sponsoring this race. Afterall, without their support, many of these races are not possible (though at $400+/entry, that gets a little debatable). But when the spots AND attention get focused on people who didn't go through the same procedures as the rest of us to get into the race, that's when it's wrong.

A couple of examples, and I'd love to get responses from the people I mention to hear their point of view on this:

1. Being my first Ironman, I stuck around under midnight at the finish at LP. Of all of the finishers, the race announcers made at the biggest deal about Tom Ziebart, who got in on a Gatorade slot. While I greatly appreciate and admire Tom's many contributions to the sport, I don't think it was necessary for him to turn the proceedings into a three ring circus by trying to focus the attention on himself by intentionally stopping at his condo and trying to finish at exactly 17 hours, and stealing our accolades from those who really needed and earned our support on what was a very tough day.

2. A second example is a couple who stayed at our bed and breakfast. They're regular mid of the packers and very enthusiastic triathletes. They got into IMFL at the last minute last year, because they were friends with someone who was a rep for a sponsoring company. I realize who you know does wonders in all walks of life, but is this really what Ironman should be about?

Since I've rambled long enough, I won't even get into the Degree/Steve Katai b.s. (which I'm sure has already been discussed extensively on this forum anyway).

Perhaps I'm jealous, but how come those of us that enter these things following the normal procedures and rules, get shoved to side for a lucky few?

My two (now probably three) cents.

I am not sure what to think about this. However, things have been getting fuzzy recently as to the hard and fast "rules" of the cut off time.

Originally, it was finish whenever. I think Walt Stack took over 24 hours years ago. He went home napped for a bit woke up at dawn went back to the point on the run course where he left off and then ran it in.

Then they instituted the midnight/17:00 hour cut off. I recall them being fairly strict with this year's ago. Midnight would come, and the power cord was pulled and they would start tearing down the finishline minutes after midnight. Then the whole last finisher celebration started to gather momentum to the point that the last finisher was getting more appreciateion and hype than the first finishers - Fair enough - and the whole party-at-the-finishline right up until midnight became a big deal, which is cool! This worked particularly well when the very last finisher and last person out on the course, almost on que, approached the finish line as the clock ticked down to midnight - the perfect and dramatic ending to a long day. Now as race fields get bigger and actual average race times get slower!( an interesting phenomenon to be addressed some other time) as fate, there are often quite a few people who are still out on the course at midnight and if the 17:00 cut-off has come and gone with no dramatic rush to the line right at midnight, it seems a bit anticlimatic. So, things seem to get extended a bit these days. The "last" finisher at IMC this year was after midnight.

It's a tough call. Are you going to tell the guy/gal who finishes at 17:02, in front of several thousand madly cheering spectators that they have NOT done the race?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

can you picture this?

A lone limping runner turning down Alii after midnight and the crowd:

a) lets forth with booing and hissing
b) turns their back in a demonstration against this shameful act.
c) blocks his progress like a civil rights protedt, shouting, "come back sub-10 or don't come back!"

Haven't been to Kona, but that's not the vibe at the IM's I have been to.

'The point is I don't know where you live but in our community that man would have came back a hero and would be called Ironman.'


I guess it's very subjective and he certainly had the guts and determination to be considered a hero by many but, and I may be on my own here, if set myself a goal which includes a time clause and don't finish within that time I don't consider it a success, however ill prepared or unlucky I was.

It may be that he just aimed to finish but just finishing is no longer the big cigar it once was.

No but they aren't an official finisher.

I was at IMFL this year, and got to watch the 16:30+ finishers coming in. It was a very inspiring thing to watch. Maybe they planned coming in at 16+, maybe something happened out there and their race didn't go as planned . But they were going to make it: wrestling down that frellin' beast of a race and making it to the line before everything turned back into pumpkins.

Well put and I say call him an Ironman and "my hero".

Great Floridian you get 17:30 right? So if time is really what makes you an Ironman then what gives? So far I've read complete horse crap. 17 hour cut off time is because the volunteer and race staff need to go home sometime... If I had been there to give him my medal I would have.

wow. thats profound. comparing great floridian standards to kona. get a clue dude. people are busting their asses trying to get to Kona and then someone gets an entry handed to him. perhaps a 17 hour finish hits a little to close to home to you, but your opinion isnt horsecrap, its yours and u have it for a reason.

Cowman Amooha aka Ken Shirk IS an IRONMAN. In recent years he does race bandit and does not cross the line. He was however, racing Ironman Canada and Hawaii 20 years ago as an official entrant within the time limits. He's actually a rather talented athlete. He's credited with being one of the first guys to complete the Tevis Cup on foot when the snow was too high for the horses... a race we now know as the Western States 100. The dude is a stud, and an IRONMAN.

My two cents: the cut-off is 17 hours. It was when the day started. Those were the rules of the day. To complete an "iron distance race" is to go 140.6, but please don't be putting the mdot bumper sticker on your car. To be "an Ironman" is to finish an Ironman branded race within the time limit, now you can have the bumper sticker from the race. (sucks for the old guys at Australia) To race "the Ironman" is to complete Hawaii by what ever means were available, NOW you can go get the mdot for your car. If the rules, like 'em or hate 'em, allow for lottery and sponsor slots, so beit. To finish 10 hours or 16:59 doesn't make a person any more or less of an Ironman, but 17:01 does not accomplish the feat.

in 1978 12 people completed the "Ironman". I was the last person to do it in less than 17 hours and I finished 8th.

There was no qualifying and the entry fee was $5 (of which $2 was returned because there was left over money).

The fact that the race has become so big that the organizers have to institute a cut-off time to make it manageable doesn't take away from the accomplishment of someone who takes a little (or a lot) more than 17 hours to do the race, if they did it at one go. If they and others want to think of them as an Ironman, despite not having achieved the "officieal cut-off time", so be it.

When the Kona race was transferred from the care of John Collins to others one thing he insisted on was that there always be room for the ordinary guy. This means there will always be some who get their entry "handed" to them through mechanisms other than qualifying. Sorry you begrudge them that opportunity.

I don't begrudge them the accomplishment and you shouldn't either.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Hey, if if an ordinary guy gets in that has paid his dues, no problem. I guess it all depends on what you consider ordinary. To me, ordinary is not someone that trains 3 months and gets in because he knows somebody. Just shows money can buy anything.

Broll writes: "if if an ordinary guy gets in that has paid his dues, no problem. I guess it all depends on what you consider ordinary. To me, ordinary is not someone that trains 3 months and gets in because he knows somebody. Just shows money can buy anything."

"Paid his dues" - exactly what dues were to talking about? To whom do we pay this dues? And, what could be more ordinary than someone who has only trained for 3 months? 2 months? No training - now there is your typical American.

And, I am sure even you know "somebody". Was there a particular somebody you were referring too? And, money can't buy anything. It can't buy immortality or good judgment or a whole host of things.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

There are athletes that have been at this for years trying to get a Kona slot who will probably always come up short. They sacrafice more time and money with entry fees and equipment (including powercranks) than someone who just gets a wild hair up their ass. Personally I would rather see someone that has paid these dues race at Kona than someone who knows a sponsor. Do I know anybody that has done something special for me ? Of course, friends save me a dime or two on products here and there, but I have never gained something for free that takes this much hard work. btw..the powrcranks comment is not in jest, two of my greatest friends and training partners have em, and yes, they are trying to get to Kona. peace.

For one thing,17 hours seems to be an arbitrary number and was a way to use midnight as a course closing, volunteer going home, road opening time. If the organizers had decided to start a 6:00am, the number would have been 18 hours. Since IM apparently considers these things as events and not races(competition), I think anyone who finishes is an Ironman. IMO, 17 hours is sort of ridiculous, anyway but that's another thread.
That being said, the World Championship RACE should be just that, a race or competition. Letting corporate sponsorships and lotteries rule would be analogous to allowing Coca Cola to put in a team of racers for the Olympic triathlon. Or Fox to let one of their employees pitch a game in the World Series.
Ordinary people are the Bill Bells and Madonna Bauders of the world who QUALIFY and they would satisfy John Collins' mandate.

Bob Sigerson

well said, and when John Collins made that request, Hawaii was the only Ironman. Now there are many of them to satisy the needs of the "ordinary" person.

AGREE

AGREE agin: D

I think the WTC and almost everyone considers the IM, and especially the Kona "event" to be a race in an event. Actually, several races in a single event when one considers the age-groupers.

While Coca-Cola may not be able to add athletes into the Olympics for their sponsorship dollars I think we can all feel certain they do get some perks that the rest of us can only dream about. And, there are battles going on right now about what "uniforms" (i.e., with what logos) athletes can wear in the Olympics.

That being said, if the World Championships were restricted to "qualifiers" they could probably close the course at 8PM, except for a couple of 70+ stragglers. Nobody would be at the finish line for them if there were a total of 5 finishers between 8 and midnight. IMHO, having those folks is part of the theater and part of what keeps this sport growing.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

RE: The "Michelin Man"

It doesn't suprise me at all that someone with that little actual training suffered and had a lousy race experience. What does suprise me is why he would want to publicize such an embarrassing report.

He has been keeping fit for the past few years by biking and running and last year even entered several Sprint races

At the halfway or turnaround point on the bike, Ron was in so much pain that he collapsed.

He blames this trouble on his lack of nutritional knowledge and no one to learn from, hence his biggest mistake.But when he got off his bike his legs wouldn’t support him and he couldn’t stand up.

Ron got to his feet but could only shuffle along when someone yelled, “You missed the cut-off time!”.

A minute or so into the run Ron realized he had left his salt tablets and Ibuprofen (much needed now) back at the run’s starting tent.

They didn’t know it, but you aren’t allowed to be accompanied by supporters. The official gave Ron a three minute stop penalty.

The whole story is one big mess - someone who got lucky and got to try something they weren't ready for. Kind of like someone saying "Well I wouldn't have crashed the helicopter if I had only had some flight training" or "I'm sorry the brain surgery didn't work - I never took that course" or "I'm sorry I lost all your money - I really don't know much about investing".

It really doesn't matter to me how someone gets in. It matters what they do with it. The "Michelin Man" should have at least learned the rules, and shouldn't make excuses about not having anywhere to turn to for nutrition advice. And really, if he needed the painkillers that badly, he should have turned around and walked back the 100 yards to get them.

This man just proves that 17 hours is quite a long time and one doesn't have to be some athletic God to just do this race. The key is being in some semblence of shape, pacing yourself, and, then, being willing to suffer big time.

It should be an inspiration to those who are better trained but "afraid" to try an IM because they think it is "too hard". Doing an IM is somewhat like child birth. Even though you may have suffered terribly during it (whether you trained for it or not), after it is over the benefits of having done it make it seem not so bad and many decide to do it again.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I agree that 17 hours is arbitrary and is a necessary evil in order to manage the volunteers etc. However, I think that we can expect that the same athletes from 1978 would be able to complete the races in a significant faster time (assuming of course that they were the same age and motivation) because of the better equipment and understanding of what is needed to complete the race. Put Haller in a wetsuit in 1979 and give him giant bright orange buoys to swim towards with tons of support in the water and Warren may never have won - or we may have had an epic battle to the finish.

The reality is that the race must be cut off somewhere. Has he done the distance - yes. Is that an acheivement worthy of respect? - yes. Is he an mdot Ironman? - no. Is he an ironman? yes.

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"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

Ironman is a Comic Book character.

Everyone that finished behind a guy named Peter this year are LOSERS.

Ironman Hawaii is a business.

Most of the replies here are tainted with self indulgence (which is typical of the self indulgent).

In August John Collins wrote in my 25th anniversary book at the pre-event dinner for Ironman revisited "welcome to the REAL ironman course!". Judy Collins completed that course on race day at about 4 in the morning. Judy is a stud! It was a tad over 17 hours but, there is no cutoff at Revisited so she's an Ironman right? It was on the REAL ironman course, so that's even more official, right?

IMHO the folks posting negatively on this string are a little taken by their own preceived importance. If Peter Reid crushes those folk in Kona are they ironmen? Maybe in a comic sort of way, huh? The WTC doesn't control my respect for a man, by some considerably difficult entrance decisions or what time limit considerations they pull from the hat of their convenience. The man in the XTRI.COM column is an IRONMAN and probably respects all you guys who finish ahead of him more than you'd know.

Frank,

17 hours isn't the issue for me. For some very well trained people that is very tough - for others a walk in the park. My issue was his lack of preparedness, and lack of knowlege of the rules, and his taking painkillers to get through it, and writing about how heroic his effort was BECAUSE of his lack of preparation.

I agree with you that a lot of people who have done the training should try to do an Ironman - I'm all for that.

Certainly you have some of your own perceived importance to think that your opinion matters right? Perhaps some psychoanalysis of your post is in order. Autograph seeking at a dinner? Not my cup of tea. IMHO I think I know where you are coming from and what this race is about to you. You will never understand where I come from (and others) on this issue, we are just two different people and thats ok.

Frank, I can see your point if Hawaii was the only IM out there but it was made a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP "RACE" by the WTC. I can't ask John Collins this question but were you perceptive enough to see the proliferation of Ironman events all over the world as there has been? By my count, there
are 15 m dot events other than Hawaii. Couldn't these corporations give their free spots to some other exotic location and leave those 500+ slots to qualified athletes to RACE in Hawaii. If they did so, some of the people on this forum who have worked their a**es off might be qualifying for te big show.

Bob Sigerson

If the WTC only had 50 spots reserved for "ordinary" people I suspect the same people would still be complaining that some of those given those spots were undeserving or wasting the spot. The WTC has well over 1200 qualifying spots (XTRI has a current article ennumerating them all). Even increasing this number a couple of hundred, divided up over all of the age divisions and then divied up amongst the 15 IM races, would hardly help the chances of anyone on this list making it to the big dance. As the number of participants continue to go up qualifying will continue to get harder and harder, regardless of what the WTC does with these numbers.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

When you finish Great Floridian within 17 hours you don't get to say you did an Ironman, rather you get to say you've done an "Ironman distance" race. Shouldn't be able to call yourself an Ironman either, IMO. A "Great Floridian" maybe, Ironman, no.

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Elivis needs boats.

If you finish your an Ironperson But I might go home before you come in : ) Then the next day I'll call you IRON. OK you might not get a medal!! Or picture, they may go home also, but the next day I'll call you IRONMAN!!!!

Think it degrades the meaning of Ironman if someone calls themselves an Ironman?

Actions of others neither confirm nor degrade my accomplishments.

>>By my count, there are 15 m dot events other than Hawaii. Couldn't these corporations give their free spots to some other exotic location and leave those 500+ slots to qualified athletes to RACE in Hawaii.<<

Now really Bob, do you honestly think every single person who qualifies for Kona and goes there is really one of the top 5 (or even 10) who actually "race" for the win in their age group? OK, maybe in the upper ages, where the split isn't as big amongst the participants. But, having worked in Kona four years and talking to a lot of athletes, I'd venture to guess that maybe 10% are there to actually "race", as defined by going for the podium. Most have met their goal, which was qualifying FOR Kona.

As for the sponsors giving their spots away to the other races--I'm a sponsor and the option is b.f. Wisconsin or the Hillbilly Riviera in the offseason, or Hawaii, where ALL the big guns will be? I know what I'd do with my sponsorship money. (Not that there is anything wrong with Wisconsin--heck, I love the Packers.)

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Cathy, I believe there should be at least one IM distance race that is sacrosanct in regards to competition like the USAT National Championships. I realize there were some in the USAT NC who had no chance to medal but in most cases, they were not embarrassed. They got off the path when they allowed anyone from the SMW region to enter but most qualified. Maybe what should happen in triathlon is that anyone who wants to compete can. Just keep taking boat loads of people to Alcatraz island until everyone who wants to do it once so they can say they completed it.
An analogy is to have Harvard open enrollment via a lottery or Oxford allowing all seniors in college to enter the Rhodes scholar lottery.
I am very pragmatic and know these commercial enterprises will never go the way I am thinking. After reading the comments on this thread, I am probably only a vocal minority, anyway. I will tell you, though, that I would never go to Hawaii or Boston unless I qualified and I do not think I would make the podium if I would, but I would feel like I belonged there and I would RACE.
I have entered the Alcatraz lottery and maybe, just maybe, I'll get to meet you.

Bob Sigerson

They have qualifying races now for Alcatraz. I'm suprised that such a purist would take the lottery route :-).

None are close enough or I would.

Bob Sigerson

With all due respect to IMH, what people tend to forget, in my humble opinion, is that it's NOT a world championship race, no matter what people around the globe call it. Is it the most prestigious race? You bet! Is it a true world championship? No way, not even close, not when a private corporation organizes the whole thing.
I think that the WTC being a corporation has all the rights in the world to set any type of rules for the races it manages, whether some so called purists like it or not it's another matter. I also think that the WTC has to find the right balance between "corporativeness" and the old pioneer spirit that is behind many people's idea of the IM if they wanna keep attract to the race the very same people who helped them launch it. I think that the risk they have right now is make it too fancy and to water down the event too much, accepting people who wouldn't have any business being in the race at all. But like many of you said, IMH is becoming more and more an event rather than a race and as long as people are happy with it, well, I don't see anything wrong with it. Plus, like Gordo said on Xtri.com, if you don't like all the fuss and huge crowds, there are many many IM distance races both in the US and in Europe where you can be as satisified as in any WTC race. It's simply depends on what people are looking for.
My 3 cents...

This post could run and run.

If you go by the original concept then technically any time over the course is a finish however, you really have to go by the rules as they stand. 17hrs is the limit then the lights go out. I don't wish to sound uncaring but you need to impose some sort of control as to what 'Ironman' status actually is. The fact it's difficult makes it so damn appealing. People like Bill Bell only make it more so. I have a problem with lottery slots only because I know dozens of well trained and experienced athletes that could only benefit from an increased amount of places at qualifying races if they were available. Still Collins always wanted the race so that Joe average could race it although i'm not sure what Joe Average looks like these days. Probably got good legs on him and 10% body fat though.......

I would like to throw out a different point of view. We are all commenting as people on the inside.How about people who are not as famoliar with doing an IM. When I came home to Montana from doing IM CDA a strange thing happened. There are now 8 people registated for CDA 2004. All of them better athletes than myself. All faster. In local runs and marathon they all kick my butt. However all of them would not sign up for an IM until they saw if I could do one or not.Now that they know "HE" can do one so can I, they sign up. This guy may not given the respect to the distance He should of,but He had an oppertunity and had the balls(without probably knowing what he was getting into)to sieze it and not sit on his ass. I am looking for a 12hr finish and will get my butt handed to me by some of the people here going with me,but in a sense this guy had more of the IM spirit than the ones here that I had to see if (someone not as good as them)I could do it before they would try.

[Filippo]>>With all due respect to IMH, what people tend to forget, in my humble opinion, is that it's NOT a world championship race, no matter what people around the globe call it.<<

[sig]>>I believe there should be at least one IM distance race that is sacrosanct in regards to competition like the USAT National Championships. <<

I totally agree with both of these statements. I also agree that IMH is an "event", not a true world championship. And, as long as it's privately owned, it never will be. In fact, the WTC just announced a second go at the eBay charity auction slots.

http://vnews.ironmanlive.com/vnews/topstories/1069793662

But, would we really want to leave it up to someone like the ITU to run a long course world championship?

On the subject of +17 hour IM finishes, personally, if I had gone over the 17:00 time limit (and I came closer than I like), I would not call myself an Ironman. I like what Norton Davey said when he became the oldest IM finisher.....

Draped in a finisher's medal and handed a congratulatory T-shirt after midnight, he refused to accept any adulation. "Wait a second," he said. "I didn't officially finish."

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

For what it's worth I agree with you on all counts Cathy.

[quote]But, would we really want to leave it up to someone like the ITU to run a long course world championship?[quote]

Not really, but I wouldn't mind if WTC stuck to the original principle of having to qualify for it, rather than buying your entry through lottery, auctions, sponsors, etc...I don't mind giving wild cards to ex pros or to those who made the sport what it is now, but I do have a problem when someone takes a shortcut and pretends to bve entitled to the same type of treatment as those who have earned it.

The same principle in my opinion should apply to the 17 hour limit. It's an arbitrary rule, like many that we have in the sport. If you race a WTC event you have to know their rules and you have to be able to perform within them. If you do that, then you can claim you finished the race, otherwise you simply participated without officially finishing.

I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving

Filippo

Reading the various posts, I can only say: sour grapes, come on you guys, this competitor finished and in my book he's an ironman (although not an official finisher). I think that's where the distinction lies. I'm in my 2nd year of multi-sport, done my 2nd IMF and was lucky to win a Kona slot this month. I say lucky because on any given day things can go wrong but this time the stars were aligned. But what's the big deal? Isn't it the journey that matters? The quest of getting there? ( I may feel different once I hit the surf in Kona)

congrats on your qualifying! sour grapes? hell im thrilled for ya! i think you are misreading these posts if you think most are about sour grapes. I have never been closer than 25 minutes to a Kona slot and really dont care if i ever race there, in fact, i dont think i could afford to go anyways. I just get tired of this society always dumbing down the standards for EVERYTHING. Im a teacher and I see it every day. 10th graders at a 3rd grade reading level. 40 cheerleaders on a sideline, special accomadations for every 5th student. sorry but something like an ironman is one of the few things left that ya still have to earn, its a race/event with rules..swim, bike and run. get that last one? RUN. This 17 hour time standard has a built in "you can walk 26 miles clause" any tom, dick, or harry that has been training can bike that 112 and get off and walk forever. If you cant meet that deadline, than you just dont deserve the title. Its just too bad, try again. But great job for trying(said with sincerity)And until Kona quits calling itself the world championships, it should be reserved for the best, pros and ag's. Just too many other I-man races out there for anyone that feels the need to give it a go. again, congrats on your Kona slot, you deserve to be there!

It may not be an "official" world championship, but for ultra-distance tri it is the de facto championship. It is always the deepest field because of the prestige associated with the IMH legacy. Hawaii is the most coveted podium in all of triathlon, "real" championship or not.



Some say anyone who does the distance is "worthy" of the title, perhaps so. However, those making this argument are saying that the rules are arbitrary. These tend to be the same who argue that the rules allow for a lottery and sponsor slots, so deal with it. Do we choose to honor the rules that we approve of, and ignore those that we don't.



Others say that if you aren't there to race, and didn't earn your spot, then you are taking an opportunity from someone who truly deserves to be there. Well, if you truly deserved to be there, racing for the win, shouldn't you have been able to qualify?



My opinion? It is what it is. It's an event with a lot of history. The Holy Grail for most triathletes. The lottery is part of that history, and I think it's nice that a few "average" competitors are able to fulfill their dream each year. I believe that's part of the IMH appeal. I think that anyone who has ever waited for the late finishers, cheering them home, knows what an electrifying and rewarding experience that is.



I'm not so accepting of the charity and sponsor slots. I'm also pragmatic about them. They put money in the WTC's pocket, and above all considerations, that is what the WTC is in this for. They aren't going away. If anything they will continue to dream up MORE gimmicks like the (ridiculous in my opinion) CEO challenge. I don't get too worked up over these people, but I wish there was a more rigorous validation process. Most of the recipients of these slots are probably just as deserving as the typical lottery winner. I only wish that the media would pay a little less attention to these privileged few, and focus more on the guy/girl who is working a full time job, perhaps raising a family, yet is still disciplined enough train in the early morning/lunch/post-family time. Those doing it because they love the sport and would have been out there doing it, with or without an IMH slot.



As for those who barely make/miss the cutoff - If they were out there giving an honest effort then I have a lot of respect for them. As someone has mentioned, it takes a lot of guts to keep grinding away for 15+ hours, knowing that you aren't going to win anything but the right to be proud of yourself for persevering. However, if you're in this to challenge yourself, then the time limit is part of the challenge, arbitrary or not. If you're only interested in seeing if you can cover the distance, who is stopping you from heading out your door right now and testing yourself? When you enter an IM, you are signing on to test yourself within the parameters of the event. If you don't cross the line in 17 (or less in Oz) then you failed to meet the objective. That doesn't mean you are a failure as a person, but you didn't earn the trappings of success in this event. Like I said, I don't scoff at those who miss the cutoff. I can assure you that I would be right out there among those waiting for Bill Bell, Norton Davey, or anyone else bringing it home after midnight. It's still an awesome accomplishment, but I dare say that most people in that category feel the same as Mr. Davey and Cathy. They know that they didn't accomplish what they set out to do. They aren't satisfied with "almost". It doesn't make them less respectable.



The only person described in this thread that I have any real negative feelings about is the one said to have stopped off at his condo, waiting to be the last official finisher. As one who has waited to give a big welcome to the last finisher, this would piss me off. The finish line crowd is waiting to say "Well done! Great effort!" to someone who has struggled and yet overcome the challenge, not some glory hound. I just wonder, did he have a Sharpie in his sock, ready to sign the finish line tape? ;)



Happy trails,

Chris

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Happy trails,
Chris

Damn! This is the Energizer Bunny of threads!

I think that you should consider people's root motivation for doing an IronMan(c) race, or a Iron-distance race, or whatever. If you really want to, you could get up any Saturday morning, swim 83 laps in the pool, ride 112 miles, then run 26.2 miles, and congratulations, you have done an Ironman. Ideologically, you may disagree, but why is that different? Because you need someone else to tell you you have done it? So if you have a friend follow you the whole time, does that count?

We do triathlons for a variety of reasons, and bring different value systems along with us. Some people will argue that you aren't an IronMan unless you complete an M-Dot race(at which point you may choose to get a small tattoo on your right ankle ;p). Others would buy into the do-it-yourself model above. Some people adhere to the rules strictly; others are perfectly comfortable drafting like weasels and cutting corners on the run course. Some people want to race the IronMan, while others just want to finish it.

Ultimately, however, when you buy into the whole "IronMan" race construct(or that of any organized race, for that matter), you are buying into a format and a set of rules. Conform to the rules and you become an IronMan. Fail to comply, and you do not. The rules, while arbitrary, are there to equalize the experience to make it so that each competitor has a fair opportunity to complete something measurable and meaningful. If we are allowed to arbitrarily ignore rules when it suits us, then where does it end? And what about all the other people who have ever been disqualified for something that we are granted an exception for?

While I agree that the journey is important, what is the journey without a meaningful destination? The fact that this thread has run as long as it has is good evidence that the many people on this forum have a lot of time, effort, and emotion put into their avocation, and while we each do triathlons for personal reasons, some people are more accepting than others when there is the appearance of trivializing what is, for many, a very long, very arduous journey.

For the record: I am not an Iron person...yet.

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>>but I wouldn't mind if WTC stuck to the original principle of having to qualify for it<<

Clarification: The original principle was NOT having to qualify for the race. You paid your money and showed up. This was the case for many years.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I finally got around to reading the xtri.com article about this guy and can't figure out why you all are so pissed at this guy. From everything that I have read, the talk is big but I wonder how many of you would be able to do anything but cry your little eye's out if you were in Kona to see this guy drag himself to the finish line. The poor bastard had stopped twice for a total of 1:40 for massages to help out cramps and if he is guilty of anything, yes he did not give the race it's due respect...heaven forbid there be people in this world that are not overly obsessive triathletes that wear their heart rate monitors 24/7 and own $8K bikes.

What do you hope to take away from this guy? I did the full vineman in 12 hours but that is not branded by m dot, am I not an IM? If you have a beef with Michelin, don't buy their products. The sponsors exemptions and lottery are facts of life. Deal with it. If it is your philosophy that lottery, charity, ebay and sponsor spots are cheating, great don't take one. Remeber the actress from Baywatch who got in on a 'human interest' spot when they had those? 1 year of personal training and preparation and she came in at 16:00+, is she not a 'real IM.' Please.

Getting upset about what Kona is or has become is absurd. It is a show, event, race and world championship and one of the most important aspects of the sport. If you want to be mad about something, gripe about the lack of consistency in the way the 'race' is run not the being as a whole. I'll listen to discussion about drafting / stagger rules all day long, this 17 hour - real IM stuff is non sense.

Get yourself to ANY iron distance event and hang out until midnight. Wacth the folks that come in before and after 17 hours. If you still want to deny any of them what they are or what they have achieved, so be it, but I don't think you would be anything but moved at the courage it took to do what they just did...no matter what the background of how they got there.

I have been back on forth on many of the issues and points being made on this thread and could argue almost any side of this with a straight face. I think my personal debate boils down to an intellectual conclusion verses gut feeling as to what IM/ironman means.



Intellectually, I want to say, “Qualify and finish by the rules as they are written at that time. Period, end of story, anything less is less than IM/ironman.”



Gut feel – Awards ceremony this year at Kona, Bob Babbit tells the story of a woman (I am sure I have a few of the specifics wrong – but I am close), late-50’s who has qualified for Kona twice. First time, a few years back, she did not make the bike cutoff and her day ended early. Determined, she gets back to Kona this year, makes the bike cutoff by 5 minutes. Darkness falls on the marathon course, she trips and falls in the Energy Lab, twists her ankle (later determined to be fractured). No chance of hitting the 17 cut off and with the escort of two volunteers she limps her way in over the last 6+ miles. Hours past midnight, she and the volunteers that stayed with her cross the now dark “finish line”, a man who had finished (before midnight) watches this, runs over to her takes off his finishers medal, puts it on her and tells her she deserves it more than he does.



I know if this woman walked up to me showed me the medal and told me the story of her day I would have a hard time telling her she did not deserve the medal – does that make her a Kona Ironman/ ironman? (FYI – I assume she has previously completed and IM race so no doubt about if she is an IM – but is she a Kona IM, I guess is the point). I like to pretend that in the fine print of the rules there is a section that allows a finisher, on any given day that they completed and IM the right to hand out one “exception” to the rules for performance that embodies what Ironman/ironman means to them.



Also, I do know that when I want to convey to a non-IM/ironman the awesome feeling of the event, the greatness of the sport and how proud I am to be associated with it, I am much more likely to tell the story of this woman than I am to tell the story of my poor, but better than 17 hour, showing on that day.



My guess is IM / ironman means something very different to each one of us and if you are like me its meaning changes often, sometimes as often as day to day. What is the right answer – ask me tomorrow.

My point? Not sure, but I enjoy the thoughts and debate and sorry this missed the specific point of the post that started all of this – but once I started writing this took a different turn from my original intensions.

yes, its inspiring to watch people that have TRAINED HARD, or had physical problems struggle to an Ironman finish, and if it inspires you to "cry your little eyes out", so be it. Next year I will be summiting Mt. Everest in an encapsulated bubble carried by Sherpas. I hope the others that have done it the alternative way still respect my accomplishment. My friend this is a message board, made for comments and opinions, if this thread is a waste of your time then dont read it. People arent stewing all day and losing sleep at night because of this guy and Kona. They are just passionate about the sport and respect what Kona represents to them. Vineman dosent have a thing to do with Kona, so let us WTC/M-Dot/non-purists/ whiners have our say. Im glad for yours and others opinions as its refreshing to hear we all dont think the same.