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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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1. You don't understand how athletes that break their organization's rules are bashed and labelled as cheaters.

Well, how would you define a cheater? And do you view cheating as being a good thing or a bad thing? Would you like to compete against a cheater? Why or Why not?

2. You state that doping (I assume this to mean using Performance Enhancing Drugs) should be legal in professional sports.

A completely different discussion. Using PED's would have to be legal before it could be allowed by sporting organizations. Having PED's legalized in sports is putting the cart before the horse.

But, just because a person (whoever it is) opines that PED's should be allowed does not withdraw the fact that PED users are, in fact, cheating, breaking rules, breaking the law (<--kinda important), acting against the integrity of the game and competition, etc.

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They are viewed in a negative light because they willingly break the rules to gain a competitive advantage over those that follow the rules. It's really that simple. Certainly if a co-worker cheated themself into a promotion instead of you, or a student cheated themself to a scholarship that your child was competing for, perhaps your perspective would be different.

One could suppose that "everyone is cheating, so no one is". But, that's likely not the case. There are likely people within a sport that actually do follow the rules.

If the doping were legal, but regulated, there would be a more level playing field for all.

How would it be "more level"? ... and how would they regulate it to be more effective than it currently is? You make it sound like no one would go beyond regulations ... as if former cheaters would start following the rules. Nothing in that statement makes any sense to me.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Jul 25, 06 12:27
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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There is a rule against fighting in hockey.

... and 5 minute penalties. and game misconducts, etc.

Fighting, in hockey, does serve a somewhat positive purpose ... for the most part, it keeps out the cheap shots that could cause injury to players. Fighting, in that regard, is actually a pretty good deterant. Players know that if they cheap shot an opponent, they are going to have immediate and severe consequences.

But, most folks outside of the fans don't really approve of or encourage fighting, and see it as a black eye (pun intended) of the game that overshadows the teammwork and skill on the ice.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Jul 25, 06 12:20
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone...

but apparently bones has adopted your suggested translation...he is breaking the rules that are supposedly the most important to him and will resort to the 'you stupid atheist, you don't understand the bible' w/o knowing me...As I said, some christians like to interpret things conveniently...
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Which PED's are illegal?? Cocaine is, and some amphetamines. Everything else is available by prescription.

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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Please explain why you think it is OK to cheat? Please explain why you think it is OK to do something (even though it is illegal) just because others are doing it?

I do know a few things about you:

1. You don't know the difference between right and wrong.

2. You condone cheating.

3. You believe Rules and Regulations and the law are guidelines only, and therefore only need to be adhered to when convenient.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE SUCH BOLD STATEMENTS THEN YOU NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR LESS THAN FAVORABLE FEEDBACK.

I train hard, work hard and follow the rules. If I cheated I could win my age group at most ironman races and I could probably even turn pro. But I would know that I cheated and therefore none of that stuff would mean anything to me. That's the difference between you and me. In your world the "ends justify the means" and that is not the case in my world.

Sorry, but these are the facts and the cold hard truths.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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At the same time, I can bet you that the top 20 at Kona would have been nailed for too much caffeine if they actually tested for it.

... probably not if it were on the prohibited substance list.

Taking a situation where a substance was not-tolerated and applying it to a situation where, not only is it tolerated, but an everyday part of life for many, isn't really ananlogous.

I'm guessing that if caffeine were on the banned list, people wouldn't risk their competitive career for a latte.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Bones] [ In reply to ]
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"3. You believe Rules and Regulations and the law are guidelines only, and therefore only need to be adhered to when convenient. "

and look who's talking...
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with everything you stated in your post.

Speaking specifically of pro top-tier cycling, it is highly likely that much of the peleton is/has doped. As such, I personally choose to assume that most of them have taken PEDs. Even though I know doping=cheating=bad=unethical etc. This way, when the favorites get caught, I'm not left hating/despising anyone.

We are all human, and we ALL make poor choices at one time or another. These guys are just people who have made mistakes - just like we all do. Do they deserve a reasonable punishment if they are caught? Yes, I think so.

I don't believe any of us can KNOW what we would do in their shoes, but that is just my opinion.

I prefer to think in terms of shades of grey, not black and white.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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"I really didn't mean to create a thread about the legalities/ethics of doping..."

You can't have meaningful discussion regarding the issues you brought up without talking about ethics and legality.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [ In reply to ]
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A quick read through this thread has shown me three things:

1) Someone prefers to simply cast guilt without knowing the truth. (was that you elling at Beke in Hawaii last year?)

2) Someone believes in throwing the book at first offenders in doping so obviously that should carry over to all offenses. I mean is using EPO worse then cheating on a test, underage drinking, smoking pot, drinking and driving?

3) Some people have to throw religion into anything despite knowing most people have their own interpretations.


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Last edited by: House: Jul 25, 06 12:23
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Bones] [ In reply to ]
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:-) Are you on amphetamines right now? :-)

Where did I ever condone cheating?

Where did I ever say that rules and regulations are guidelines only?

What BOLD statements are you talking about?

I don't truly know all of the differences between you and me - except that you seem to really want to fight.

Peace Dude - Chill.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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"I really didn't mean to create a thread about the legalities/ethics of doping..."

You can't have meaningful discussion regarding the issues you brought up without talking about ethics and legality.


No kidding.

The other other relevant topic regarding doping is "How and when to do it".

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [House] [ In reply to ]
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the religious argument was only to show an obvious paradox. there are good and bad people everywhere. no matter what faith.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [ster2006] [ In reply to ]
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Just out of curiosity, are you a christian? and if you are, how do you interpret "if there is one of you that hasn't sinned, let him cast the first stone" ?

Or as too often, you're one of those christians that apply their rules whenever convenient?


Huh?

Bones is opposed to doping because they are cheaters and there are rules against cheaters. It has nothing to do with his Christian faith.

Are you suggesting that all Christians should allow doping because we have all sinned so they can just do whatever they want?


Edited: Just to say I added this post before reading TripleThreats response. It looks like he covered it.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
Last edited by: Casey: Jul 25, 06 12:39
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [House] [ In reply to ]
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A quick read through this thread has shown me three things:

A quick read through this thread indicates to me one thing ...

People will sometimes be an advocate for cheaters, and/or make an effort to understand and possibly tolerate cheating as long as it's not within their own profession and/or with someone they are competing against.

Place that cheating withing their own profession, and among those they are competing with for clients, achievement, raises, promotions, bonuses, etc ... and the understanding and advocacy for cheating will likely disappear rapido.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Yaaaaa, I know....

But as I said, I just started this thread because I think that people don't grasp the global context of doping in sports. It is my OPINION that people are very fickle with their heros. I CHOOSE not to be.

I don't REALLY have a STAND or strong opinions suggesting that ALL PEDs should be allowed for all athletes ALL the time. I guess I got myself into a bit of trouble with my OP.

Is doping banned in most pro sports? YES

Is doping cheating? YES

Is cheating wrong/unethical? DUH YES

Should athletes be punished appropriately if caught? YES

Should they be reinstated after fullfilling their punishement? HELL YES.

IF doping were allowed, would it be cheating? NO

IF this were the case, would doping be wrong/unethical? NO

Do I have a case of the "what ifs"? It would seem so.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly not condoning doping or cheating.
However, I'm not saying that if someone dopes, he should be despised, etc. everyone makes mistakes.
If you're a christian, it clearly goes against your faith to hold it against the doper forever.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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People will sometimes be an advocate for cheaters, and/or make an effort to understand and possibly tolerate cheating as long as it's not within their own profession and/or with someone they are competing against.

Place that cheating withing their own profession, and among those they are competing with for clients, achievement, raises, promotions, bonuses, etc ... and the understanding and advocacy for cheating will likely disappear rapido.


OR, we choose not to be in a profession where cheating is DOMINANT. If doping/cheating is dominant at the TDF, people can choose NOT to participate.

However, I doubt that many of us could even choose to go to the TDF.

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen"
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I think it is important to point out that no-one is condoning the act of doping. The context here is as follows: do you make a judgement on the character of a person because they have doped? Separate the act (which is bad) from the person (not necessarily any worse than any of us).

I met Tyler Hamilton once, before the doping charges. I thought he was a really nice fellow. I think he still is a nice fellow, just one who has done something wrong.

Apparently earlier this year, Rutger Beke was being booed and jeered by "fans" at one of his races, I forget which one. That is a very sad statement on the character of those fans.

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [ster2006] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly not condoning doping or cheating.
However, I'm not saying that if someone dopes, he should be despised, etc. everyone makes mistakes.


These are actually good points.

I think that we should throw the book (to the extent of the existing laws) at all those caught cheating, the first time. The athletes have known for a long time the risks they take when they ingest any form of drug (including over the counter ones that may have a banned substance).

However, if they have paid the penalty we have no choice but to let them compete again. I would like to see harsher penalties (lifetime ban if caught) to ensure the athletes know it will not be tolerated.

I think the current system is unfair to those who do not cheat because everyone is under suspicion. In fact, I believe all professional cyclists are on some form of PED because of the culture of drugs in the sport. That being said however, if the rules call for a 2 year ban, we have to accept them back into competition. They will always be under suspicion and will probably never be fully trusted (ie. David Millar) but they should be allowed back in.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [ster2006] [ In reply to ]
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ster2006,

My feelings were the same as yours when I read the comments. We despise the action, but not the person. We are commanded (not requested, not suggested, not asked, but commanded) to love our neighbors as we love ourself. Who are our neighbors? Everyone. [Luke 6:32-35]

That does not mean that we tolerate illegal activity, or cancel punishment (even for ourselves), but that we still have love, compassion, and caring for the individuals ... not despising or hate.

Luke 6:45 -- out of the overflow of the heart his mouth speaks.

I try to remember that verse anytime I am talking cruelly about someone or making hateful and spiteful comments. It's tough, and we all need redirected sometimes.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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See my response above for my views on doping.

It sounds like they are similar to yours.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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If the doping were legal, but regulated, there would be a more level playing field for all.

How would it be "more level"? ... and how would they regulate it to be more effective than it currently is? You make it sound like no one would go beyond regulations ... as if former cheaters would start following the rules. Nothing in that statement makes any sense to me.


Again, for me, this is a case of the "WHAT IFs".

IF doping could be made allowable, and IF it could be closely regulated, then the playing field, at least WRT PED's, would be more level. As I have said earlier, there will always be cheaters. They would just have to find new ways to do it.

I would not be easy to regulate and/or allow doping, but it would eliminate the cheating factor of it. If it would be just another acceptable means to enhance performance, not unlike consuming caffeine or using an altitude tent.

That is IF this were to happen. Unlikely.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Similar views, but I don't think a lifetime ban is appropriate for all infractions, and that there needs to be room for exceptions. If a lifetime ban, zero tolerance policy were enforced, Lance Armstrong would have been booted from the sport a long time ago. (cortisone cream used in 1999 or 2000 TdF for a saddle sore, his doctor failed to file the appropriate paperwork in a timely manner).

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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we choose not to be in a profession where cheating is DOMINANT. If doping/cheating is dominant at the TDF, people can choose NOT to participate.

There's way to much deflection going on in this thread. All of the attention is being diverted AWAY from those athletes that make a conscious choice to break the rules of their sport for a competitive advantage. It is an adult decision that comes with adult consequences. As my grandma used to say "If you can't (or won't) do the time, don't do the crime".

Your comment above basically tolerates cheaters driving honest competitors from the sport, essentially saying "If you don't want to cheat to compete, go find a new job". Is that really your sentiment?

I am a principal. If cheating were dominant in my profession, I would not quit. I love what I do. I would fight to erradicate cheating in my profession, because I care about my profession and those that it affects.

Walking away from a problematic situation does not make the situation better. Comments like "Legalizing XYZ would lower the crime rate" and the like are not solutions, but surrenders.

Retreat is not a solution to overcoming obstancles.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Jul 25, 06 13:09
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