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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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One hesitation about posting on ST that I have, is that I like to have evidence to support my statements. If not, I am certain to always clarify that I am merely stating opinion, and not fact. So I ask you a few questions below:

Well, I for one have a problem with the startling number of young pro riders who have died in the last few years of heart arrhythmias related to EPO doping. I also have a problem with the number of pro athletes in this country that died of cancer and other causes related to illegal steroid usage.

Can you please tell me the death rate, or even number of deaths in young pro riders as a result of EPO use? Can you point me to the death rate of pro athletes that have died from cancer due to illegal steroid use? I would honestly love to see some numbers. Using the word "startling" is not specific. Yes, I might agree that one death is too many. But, I would postulate that much of this would be due to lack of proper medical supervision, and self-administering.

If it becomes an accepted medical treatment for professional athletes, within the bounds of "do no harm", some of the perilous outcomes may be averted. There is a possibility that there would be a nice reduction in the "back-alley" medicine that goes on. Thus, a reduction in fatal risk to the athletes.

Perhaps, the fact that essentially all illegal performance enhancing drugs are not intended for perfectly healthy individuals and it is medically inappropriate as well as unethical, let alone dangerous, to prescribe these agents simply to improve an athletes' performance. Removing legal restrictions by sport governing bodies does nothing to decrease the health risk or change the medical ethics questions of using these agents.

I think that history is quite clear in showing that medical and social ethics change depending on the current social climate. Barely 30 years ago, it was illegal to consume oral contraceptives, as it was deemed unethical. Same with morning after pill. Alcohol was illegal... Need I add to this list?

As for medically inappropriate - I can give you a long list of things that professional athletes do that can be considerred medically inappropriate. These are NOT normal everyday people. They are the thoroughbreds of humanity. Is it right? Is it wrong? I'm not trying to find that answer. It is the way it is.

I do agree that the medical ethics committees would have to spend a long time establishing appropriate guidelines for PED "safe" use.

Perhaps, you have also lost sight of the fact that many medications carry adverse risks, and are only deemed appropriate when the risk benefit ratio is serious side effects versus death. Such serious risk taking is not warranted for healthy atheletes looking to improve their performance and paychecks.

I have lost sight of nothing. I realize that there are side effects to all medical treatment.

Please provide me with the serious adverse side effects of EPO, if the hormone is taken in small doses, ensuring that hematocrit does not exceed 0.50. The hormone would be taken under the legal supervision of a doctor. Minor side effects, such that might be seen with birth control, do not count (ie; weight gain, acne, mood swings). Although birth control can result in blood clots, they still administer it to normal and healthy individuals.

I think your argument has fundamental flaws. I do not find it convincing.

I'm okay without convincing you. I really was not developing an argment in my previous posts, as I presented few suggestions to develop regulated drug program. In that way, I don't think that my opinions can be flawed. Because they are just that. OPINIONS. I'm not a dumb-dumb, and believe it or not, I realize that many problems would accompany a legalized athlete doping system.

Probably the biggest fundamental PROBLEM (not flaw to my non-existent argument) of legalized regulated doping is this: Athletes who do not want to dope, but want to be professional, would have no choice but to take PED's anyway.

As I read this post, it would seem that I have strong opinions WANTING PEDs to be legalized. I do not think that is the case. I think I made a minor comment in my original post, and have been asking to defend my "position" as though I have one. I don't really. Ultimately, I think that drugs in sport is BAD, and would love to see all competition clean. That is not reality though. I'm not trying to advocate legalizing PEDs. It will never happen. I suppose that I'm just feeling bit bored and obviously a bit feisty.

BUT, as I said earlier, my primary purpose to in starting this thread was to point out our fickle nature regarding our hero's, and how easy we abandon them once they stumble.
Last edited by: Drea: Jul 22, 06 18:46
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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I can understand all of these quotes from you.

"What most people don't understand, is that doping in professional sports is more pervasive than many could ever guess."

"What people do not understand, is that the playing field is NOT level to begin with. All of these big, bad "cheaters" just happend to have gotten caught. "

"I suppose that I am implying that most of the athletes in the peleton at an event like the TDF are doped. It is possible that I am wrong, but I don't think so."


"Once you are there, on the top, it must be even harder. The pressure must be incredible from fans, sponsors, teammates, family, etc. The list goes on. I offer this not as an excuse, rather an explanation for why athletes might choose to dope. "


But then you go on to say this,


"I even believe that LA's acheivements were possible, drug-free. "

That completely baffles me. You suggest everyone is on drugs EXCEPT the one guy who won for 7 years and came back from near death to completely dominate all the other drug users.

Does that honestly make sense to you?






__________________________________________________

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Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

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Last edited by: Casey: Jul 22, 06 22:22
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [dnf kona 1998] [ In reply to ]
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I think what he's saying is that Lance is not a cheater because his "q" rating is higher than Paris or Brittney(are they using peds?) and that it would expose him to criminal fraud.

*smacks forehead*

Of course! What was I thinking? I'll have to find out what investment company he endorses myself, maybe. :)

That's a brutal user name you got going on there.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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Why so much hate of dopers?

If by "dopers" you are referring to those that take drugs to illegally improve their athletic performance, the answer is:

Because they are cheaters. As simple as that.

I have no sympathy for amateur or professional dopers. IMO professional athletes that dope should be heavily fined and banned for life if they are found guilty.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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After reading this post, the first thing that comes to mind is the SNL skit in the early 90's when the weightlifter rips his arms out of his sockets at the Olympic Doping games. I don't know about regulating drugs in sports. Where is it going to stop.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [tifreak] [ In reply to ]
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That was a pretty good skit.

Personally, I was thinking back to the early 1990's and some of the old Dave Scott ads with him in a black and white photo looking at you and saying "Taking drugs to go faster is stupid." I wasn't even old enough to drink alcohol yet, but even being that young it spoke volumes.

RE: Caffeine- Just to clear up some previous comments, Caffeine as assessed by WADA is not a banned substance, but is a monitored substance. Typically it's anywhere from 12-15mg/mL for urine (about 5 cups of stiff joe, 80mg of caffeine/cup). NCAA still has guidelines and regulations for it I believe (they are at 15mg for competition).

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Casey:

Look at my language.

It is possible that many of the participants in the tour are doping. It is also possible that many are clean. As I said, I do believe that it is possible that LA acheived what he did without doping. I'm not being sarcastic or obuse with my statements. I honestly believe that all of these scenarios are possible.

In general, I believe that most scenarios are relative.

I'll leave the absolutes to the right-wing conservatives in the LR :-P (and the L-wing whackos who don't like reality).
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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If by "dopers" you are referring to those that take drugs to illegally improve their athletic performance, the answer is:

Because they are cheaters. As simple as that.

I have no sympathy for amateur or professional dopers. IMO professional athletes that dope should be heavily fined and banned for life if they are found guilty.


Sergio:

Do you hate all dopers, or just those that are caught?

Let me paint you a picture: A current athlete is clean, but used to dope. The athlete won many big races while doping, but was never caught. Now, the athlete wins, but is clean (and has been for years). Suddenly (while they are clean), new and definite evidence comes to light showing that the athlete used to dope - at least at one event. Do you hate this athlete? They USED to be a "cheater". Should all of their titles - clean and dirty, be stripped?

How about the TDF dudes? Do you cheer for anyone in particular? I hope that you follow your cheers with - "as long as they aren't doped". Realize that most of our recent heros have been busted - except for LA. Part of this is to much improved technology in catching dopers. Technology that did not exist 5 or 10 years ago.

I think that today's David Millar may provide evidence to suggest that at least a number of our heros are dopers. I suspect that he is now clean, and most people might agree. When he was using, he used to kick all of these guys butts. Now, he can barely make the top ten. The 11th place result still shows that he has incredible talent and must have a good training program. Are you really so naive to think that ALL of the 10 men who beat Millar are clean, just because they have not tested positive? I hope that you realize that you really hate some of them, too, but just don't know exactly which one to hate.

In my little world, I just like to watch their performances, and think of them as exceptional regardless of whether or not they use PEDs. I can think this way, because I believe that most of them use or have used PEDs at some point to get the the TDF level. Also, I won't label or judge them, because I (and most of the general population) have no clue what it is like to compete at that level.

Again, I wish that sport could be all clean. But I know that it NEVER has been. And I don't assume that it will be.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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I think that today's David Millar may provide evidence to suggest that at least a number of our heros are dopers. When he was using, he used to kick all of these guys butts. Now, he can barely make the top ten. The 11th place result still shows that he has incredible talent and must have a good training program.

I agree with some of your points, but keep in mind that Millar's suspension was lifted only a week before le Tour and it was his first competition in a couple years.

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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"I just don't like the fact that people sit here bashing those who have been caught. "

These people are cheaters and don't play by the rules. What don't you understand? Your logic makes no sense. Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right. Where are your ethics? You and people like you are what is wrong with our society: What happened to doing the right thing because it's the right thing. Not to mention that it's the law.

Dopers are cheaters and I despise everyone of them. I used to like Tyler Hamilton but now I despise him. Rutger Beke, Nina Kraft, etc. are all in the same boat. Just because Beke got off on a technicality doesn't mean he's not a cheater. Dopers should be banned from all competition for life. If it was up to me they would also go to jail.

Do the right thing!
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Bones] [ In reply to ]
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"Where are your ethics? You and people like you are what is wrong with our society"

Whatever. You know nothing about me. Just a few paragraphs, just a few opinions.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Bones] [ In reply to ]
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I do agree with you that if caught, first offense is banned for life, period, end of story. No sob stuff on why Nina is such a great person and the pressure got to her. Just no accountability in our society anymore. Jail, na, this is not about life or death.

Dave

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Is that regardless of what the doping substance was??

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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Current doping regulations are basically allowing doping to occur in sport. Take hemocrit levels, regulated at 50% w/o a dr.'s note. How many people have hemocrit levels at 50? While I can't point to a study, I have heard that the average person has a hemocrit level 43 - 45. If your hemocrit is 43, you can dope up to 49%, still be legal, and gain a huge increase in o2 carrying capacity.

So they regulate it to 50, so your blood isn't too thick, but don't do anything more because they recognize cyclists dope and don't want to kick the whole lot out of the tour. If they really wanted to control doping, they could tighten all of their restrictions and require athletes to prove their natural hemocrit level (I'm sure they could determine a way to do this).

So they are effectively allowing doping while doing their best to control it and protect riders health.

*edit* to add that this year's tour speed was the third fastest on record at 40.784 km/h. Faster than armstrong's win in '04 at 40.56 km/h.
Last edited by: art vandelay: Jul 25, 06 10:44
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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I used the word doping to be what ever is defined as illegal. Is there a doping agent that is illegal that should be an exception?



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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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What I am saying is, do you give someone the same penalty for going over the limit for a relatively innocuous substance as for something that is clearly only going to be used for the sole purpose of enhancing performance.

For example, pseudoepinehrine is common in many allergy medications, and has minimal to no performance enhancement qualities. It appears to be the same as epinephrine to a drug test, which is why pseudoepinephrine is banned, because otherwise people could take epinephrine and claim that it is from their allergy medications.

If someone tests positive for pseudoepinephrine, when they may have taken it accidentally (forgot which one was allowed, or had to raid the wife/husband's medicine chest) should they receive the same lifetime ban as another individual who tests positive for EPO, anabolic steroids, pot belge (a mix of cocaine, amphetamines, and opiates, I think) all at once?

How about making the punishment proportional to the offence?

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [art vandelay] [ In reply to ]
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That's exactly what I've been thinking - it seems to me that there may be a prevailing assumption that the team doctors can administer any substance to any athlete so long as they don't produce a negative test. Sure, the substance is banned, but if it's tested to some specified concentration as determined by urine or blood testing, why not dose your athlete right to that specified concentration?

I do not personally subscribe to this school of thought, this is just my impression of what goes on in the world of elite athletes.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Then we basically have no rules, imo. For someone who is a pro, part of their job, whether they like it or not, is to know about ANYTHING they put into their bodies, and what impacts in may have on doping tests. Once you start with well this rule should not be enforced because of ...., then, in my black and white world, this is why we have a lot of the issues we have in today. Just take Nina. Should she be banned for life? Of, since she is a nice person and did not do it on purpose, just act like nothing every happened? (I have never meet Nina, but just a person in our sport)

I do believe in the one strike and your out. I believe in tough love. I do agree there should be an exception board for the cases like you bring up, but would they be the exception, or the rule?





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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I am not talking about exception cases. The rules are designed at the moment recognizing that doping with some substances are more serious than doping with others, and the proscribed penalties for such infractions are set accordingly. There have also been numerous cases of athletes testing positive due to cross-contamination of legal nutritional supplements with banned substances, as both the banned and the allowed substances may be made in the same plant by the supplement company.

It is analogous to the legal system, we don't have a one-size-fits-all justice system. Even taking the same criminal act (say theft), different penalties are attached to shoplifting vs. armed robbery. According to your logic, both the shoplifter and the armed robber should get the same sentence, life imprisonmnent.

As a matter of order, we should be talking about banned substances, not illegal ones. eg. EPO is not illegal, but it is banned under sporting rules. Some countries have made it illegal when taken in a sporting context, eg Italy has done so by tying the use of such substances to fraud. But the drug itself is not illegal.

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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I guess Barry Bonds is not a doper since he did not knowingly take anything. :o)



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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, something like that. Not....

I'm not that familiar with the specifics of the Bonds case, but if you take something and you tell the doc "don't tell me what it is, I don't want to know" that is the same as intentionally doping. And he was on more than cough drops or Benadryl.

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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Bones] [ In reply to ]
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you don't seem to be aware that Beke didn't get away with it on a technicality...it's not like he used the broken chain of custody argument as others did in the past.

Just out of curiosity, are you a christian? and if you are, how do you interpret "if there is one of you that hasn't sinned, let him cast the first stone" ?

Or as too often, you're one of those christians that apply their rules whenever convenient?
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [ster2006] [ In reply to ]
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"Just out of curiosity, are you a christian? and if you are, how do you interpret "if there is one of you that hasn't sinned, let him cast the first stone" ?

Or as too often, you're one of those christians that apply their rules whenever convenient? "

Yes, I'm a Christian and you must be an atheist.

I have never taken performance enhancing drugs and therefore I will be more than willing to throw the first stone. Your argument makes about as much sense as Drea's original argument.
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [Bones] [ In reply to ]
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LOL...you've got your own reading of the bible obviously...
btw, you made no comment about you being wrong regarding beke...
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Re: Why so much hate of dopers? [ster2006] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't Jesus say "Let he who is without that particular sin cast the first stone"?

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