In effect they are regulating now to make a level playing field. HcT cannot be above 50, hormone levels cannot be above certain thresholds.

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In one paragraph you say ...

IF it could be closely regulated, then the playing field, at least WRT PED's, would be more level. As I have said earlier, there will always be cheaters. They would just have to find new ways to do it.

But, in the next paragraph you say ...

it would eliminate the cheating factor of it.

That wouldn't do anything to eleviate cheating ... just increase the amount athletes would take to "gain their advantage". So not only have you not eliminated the cheating problem, you have elevated the risks by cheaters using greater and greater amounts ... and in the meantime, now every athlete is legally using PED's. This is not going in the "right" direction and perhaps passing the point of no return.

Legalizing it to a point, only increases the amount cheaters would take ... and does little to curb cheating. Cheating is a mindset, not a prescription amount.

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Your comments in this thread remind me of comments from other discussions like "Legalizing everything would lower the crime rate".

By definition, if everything WERE legal, then there would be no "crime". There would still be murders etc., but it would not be a "crime" because it is not illegal. (No, I don't think that murder and crime should be legal).

I don't think that murder, B&E, Dope dealing, etc are on the same level.

I have discussed my thoughts on this ad nauseam. In another thread (Would you dope) I discussed how it is not the sole decision of the athlete. Rather, they do what they are told. If you care to read it, check out that thread.

I will kindly accept that you have your opinions, and I have mine (and they do not always differ).

I know. I have theories of how to regulate. But that is for another thread. Another day.

How young are we talking about here? My impression is that a lot of athletes are also incredibly pressured from a very young age to take these substances. The coach is in a position of power (if you don't take this, then you won't be riding in the big races). Thinking of Genevieve Jeansson here.

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By definition, if everything WERE legal, then there would be no "crime".

That's not what I was getting at. The point is it's a "non-solution" offered as a solution.

I discussed how it is not the sole decision of the athlete.

Who has the final say about whether to take PED's or not?

[/b]Rather, they do what they are told. If you care to read it, check out that thread. [/b]

Are you saying that most athletes that take PED's are doing what they're told and not making a decision on their own? You posted earlier that you like to have evidence for your facts ... I'd like to see the evidence supporting that idea.

I have a strong interest in PED and sport, and believe that there is a "mutual recruitement" between PED providing coaches and athletes. There's usually "no secret" about which coaches and trainers are rumored to be "chemists" [we could proablay name some of them here], and (IMO) athletes seek out those coaches/trainers [or even just "big guys" at the gym] just for that purpose. BALCO, for example. They do so because the desire to win is greater than the desire to "not cheat". Everything we say eventually dwindles down to that sentence.

It is my opinion, based on the information (friends that use, autbiographies, interviews, books, documentaries, etc), that more times than not, [1] athletes know exactly what they are doing, [2] are seeking out a coach/trainer/gym-dude for a specific purpose, and [3] know the risk-reward ratio and say "it's worth it".

I also feel that many athletes use because they believe everyone else is. But, "everyone else is doing it" has rarely been a good reason for breaking the rules ... especially in the adult world. I am not saying I would never use PED's, but I am saying that if I did, I would be subject to same negative image and potential punishments if caught. I would, as a point of fact, be a "cheater" ... and I would have to look my son in the eyes [and myself in the mirror] and explain myself.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Again: if doping were legal, it would no longer be cheating. It would just be doping, another available tool for performance enhancement.

And YES, there would still be cheaters - just with new methods. Maybe not eve with drugs.

Some athletes may push the limit, at the risk of their health/lives. BUT, for the most part I think that athletes want to do well. Not die.

Again. It is unlikely, and I'm not lobbying for it.

Peace out.

I couldn't not say anything... so here goes.

I spent some time in the last year with an elite level triathlete, from a developed, first world nation. He has seen the "supplements" that the athletes are forced to take without question, and they have all been forced into signed non-disclosure agreements.

He tells me that for every drug, there's a masking agent, and that the people doling out the drugs are always a solid two steps ahead of those testing for said drugs...

It's no secret that this crap goes on, and that it is a dangerous game being played with innocent athlete's lives... and for what? Greed and money.

For godssakes... the game was never always about winning, it was about the spirit of competition. Anyone that things that "legalizing" performance enhancing substances under the guise of leveling the playing field is seriously misguided.

Don't be fooled, once you start messing with the balance of things, bad things happen (someone mentioned this earlier on... the cancers cannot be argued).

Maybe one day we could get back to sport for the sake of sport, but I have my doubts... for now, it's about winning at all costs, and the only ones that get caught are the ones that don't have the financial resources to cheat right, or they are just plain sloppy.

What a disgrace... really.

Are you saying that most athletes that take PED's are doing what they're told and not making a decision on their own? You posted earlier that you like to have evidence for your facts ... I'd like to see the evidence supporting that idea.


What specific evidence for what specific facts?

AFAIK - I said that I have been TAUGHT by top exercise physiologists who work with elite athletes who have told me that the best athletes are the ones that do as they are told. Not the ones that ask questions. I never said I had evidence for this. It may exist. I don't feel like looking it up if it does. I have faith in those who have taught me.

Again: if doping were legal, it would no longer be cheating. It would just be doping, another available tool for performance enhancement.

I get it ... it's just ridiculous.

I, as a principal, could eliminate cheating by allowing it.

See how goofy that is? You "solve" the problem by allowing it?

Furthermore, people cheat to get an "unfair" advantage over the competition. So, if everyone was allowed to use "this amount" of PED's, how would that decrease cheating again?

Also, if peopple use PED's because "everyone else does", wouldn't they use "more PED's", if they thought everyone else was?

Again, your solutions didn't help the problem, they made it more severe. It's important to recognize that.

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Each evening offers judgement. --

I hear everything that you are saying! I agree with your post 100%.

My husband is/was a pro triathlete. Top 10 at IMLP, IMFl, Vinman winner etc. He is clean, the way it SHOULD be.

Shades of grey...

As I said. You have your opinions. I have mine. In some things we will agree. Some not.

Note that I said "with regulations". We won't see eye to eye. That's cool.

"I think that the "cheaters" are INCREDIBLY brave for showing up. They don't need special jerseys. They already have a big scarlett D on their chest."

Brave? I think not. It's their sole purpose for taking banned substances. To go out and win races. Brave would be doing the tour without drugs.

~ AB ~

Again, your solutions didn't help the problem, they made it more severe.

Step back a second. Lets try to agree on the definition of the problem first. Is the use of PED's themselves a problem in and of itself? Is it the health risks associated with said PED's? Or is cheating the problem? Or something else?

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What specific evidence for what specific facts?

That PED using athletes don't have a choice in the matter, and are just doing what they're told.

I said that I have been TAUGHT by top exercise physiologists who work with elite athletes who have told me that the best athletes are the ones that do as they are told.

Well, I would suggest that following an exercise protocol, adjusting technique, eating specific foods, etc are one situation. Injecting yourself with a 20-gauge needle (ever seen how thick those puppies are? Ouch!), or taking a handful of pills everyday, is a completely different situation. I'm not following the jump from one to the other.

I find it rather hard to believe that athletes are taking PED's without knowledge. I'm guessing they gave their trainer consent to do whatever it takes to make them better ... even that. They may follow the trainer's prescription times and amounts without question, but I highly doubt many (if any) PED users are using PEDs without consent or implied consent (as in don't tell me what those are ... just give them to me).

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Shades of grey...

I thought we were talking about "cheating or not"?

Note that I said "with regulations".

... and I keep asking, "W#hat makes you think the cheaters will follow those rules, when they didn't follow the ones before?" That is what I am getting at. I just want to know why you think cheaters will follow your rules, when they wouldn't follow the rules before ... that's what makes them cheaters after all.

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That PED using athletes don't have a choice in the matter, and are just doing what they're told.


I never claimed to have such evidence.

Well, I would suggest that following an exercise protocol, adjusting technique, eating specific foods, etc are one situation. Injecting yourself with a 20-gauge needle (ever seen how thick those puppies are? Ouch!), or taking a handful of pills everyday, is a completely different situation. I'm not following the jump from one to the other.

I find it rather hard to believe that athletes are taking PED's without knowledge. I'm guessing they gave their trainer consent to do whatever it takes to make them better ... even that. They may follow the trainer's prescription times and amounts without question, but I highly doubt many (if any) PED users are using PEDs without consent or implied consent (as in don't tell me what those are ... just give them to me).

I have no idea whether or not you have competed at the top level of sport either as an amateur or professional. You are certainly free to believe as you wish. I just stated what I was taught by those who I feel have top knowledge in the area of elite level sport. They are physiologists for some of the best athletes in the world.

Note that I never said that my instructors said anything about PEDS. Rather, I said that I was taught that the best athletes in the world do what they are told by their coaches and physiologists without asking. Not exclusively, but typically.

"Maybe one day we could get back to sport for the sake of sport"

A pipe dream someone used to turn the Olympics into a sort of sacrement.

Even the original Olympic Games (the ones thousands of years ago)...had more at stake than simply playing the event...and cheating occurred then...

There will ALWAYS be a line somewhere...in PEDs/Doping...we've drawn it fairly tightly and clearly. But remember...the essence of sport is to push limits...and that includes all limits...get as close to the maximum possible...without going past the limit...whether that is talking about touch fouls in basketball, spoiler height on a race car, runner length on a bobsled, or the topic at hand...physiological enhancement of the athletes...EPO and steroids are banned...for a number of plausible reasons...Gatorade is acceptable...for a number of plausible reasons...the line is arbitrary...well informed...but arbitrary...

But at the end of the day...it doesn't matter where you draw the line...we're always going to deal with those that push the limit too far.

People hate dopers because they have violated trust.

Is the use of PED's themselves a problem in and of itself?

No. Provided they are obtained legally, there is nothing wrong with a person using PED's provided they do not violate the rules and regulations of the sporting organization that rules one's sport.

In short, there is nothing (IMO) morally wrong with using PED's in itself.

Is it the health risks associated with said PED's?

No. I think there are some situations where small amounts of PED's actually improve health ... some of which are quite attractive to males that are moving toward "middle-aged".

Or is cheating the problem?

Yes. That is exactly the problem being discussed.

I am stating that PED use (or amount of use) by an athlete competing in an event where PED's are prohibited by the governing body is, in fact, cheating. I guess I am not seeing the "shades of grey" on this one.

I am also disagreeing with the idea that if PED's are allowed in sports with regulations, that the same cheaters that broke the rules before (for various reasons), won't break the new rules ... only this time when they break the rules, the amounts they are using have increased (i.e., problem more severe).

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Each evening offers judgement. --

Rather, I said that I was taught that the best athletes in the world do what they are told by their coaches and physiologists without asking.

Well, in a thread focusing on doping and/or PED's, that seems like a very strange thing to say.

We're talking about PED's and you say "the very best athletes in the world do what they are told by their coaches", but you never intended to imply, "including PED ussage". Do you see how one could be easily misled (even unintentionally) by your statement?

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... and I keep asking, "W#hat makes you think the cheaters will follow those rules, when they didn't follow the ones before?" That is what I am getting at. I just want to know why you think cheaters will follow your rules, when they wouldn't follow the rules before ... that's what makes them cheaters after all.


And I keep answering - the playing field will be more level With Respect To doping - taking PEDs.

There might be new and creative ways to cheat, like motors in the hubs, illegally surgically implanting new muscles, I don't know... Something crazy.

But not with PEDs.

It seems to me that you think that consuming an exogenous substance as means to enhance performance is fundamentally wrong.

I take caffeine as an ergogenic aid. Would I take EPO at this time? No. If it were legal, allowed, and I was at level of sport where I was instructed by my physiologists to do so? I don't know. Maybe. I will NEVER be at that leve. Non issue.

We're talking about PED's and you say "the very best athletes in the world do what they are told by their coaches", but you never intended to imply, "including PED ussage". Do you see how one could be easily misled (even unintentionally) by your statement?


Of course I implied that. But that is not what was specifically taught.

Edit: I'm sure that you, as a teacher by training, can understand that a concept that is taught can be applied to different scenarios.

I'm not following. If PED's are not against the rules, then taking them would not be cheating, would it?

I think the health risk argument holds more water, myself. It is not realistic to allow PEDs in any amount that the athlete wants to take, because the health risks are enormous. So they have to be regulated on those grounds, which means banning them or introducing limits as to how much is allowed.

If cheating is the issue, then introducing thresholds doesn't make the problem worse. It simply shifts the parameters. So for substance X, where before you have noncheating athlete = 0mg/dl and cheating = 2 mg/dl, under the revised paradigm you have noncheating = 2mg/dl and cheating = 4mg/dl. Of course, it becomes much more difficult for an athlete to know whether they are cheating or not (is it 2 or 3 pills?) But by moving the thresholds, we also move the concentration of substance X closer to the point where the athletes health becomes damaged, which maybe starts at 3.5mg/dl (the liver and kidneys can't process substance X fast enough).

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the playing field will be more level

There might be new and creative ways to cheat, like motors in the hubs, illegally surgically implanting new muscles, I don't know... Something crazy.

But not with PEDs.

This is what I am getting at, and seemingly not doing a very good job at explaining my point of view.

Okay, your new regulated legal drug usage policy states that athletes can use 50cc of XYZ.

I as a top-level copetitive athlete and am always looking for a competitive edge over my equally talented opponents. What is preventing me from taking 60cc of XYZ? I never followed the drug rules before, why would I follow them now?

That's what cheaters do. We cheat. You make rules, I break them to gain an advantage.

It seems to me that you think that consuming an exogenous substance as means to enhance performance is fundamentally wrong.

Only if it is prohibited by the santioning body of the event the athlete is cometing in. Everything I have written is congruent with that.

Whether I would or would not use drugs has never come into play regarding whether athletes, by using PEDs (or amounts of PED's) against their organization's prohibition, is cheating or not.

If steroids were legal, and available at a local store for a reasonable price, I would likely be taking anavar and a few other steroids in small amounts, and enjoying my new strength PR's and additional muscle mass. They however, are not legal, thus I am not using them. Pretty simple deal, really.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

If PED's are not against the rules, then taking them would not be cheating, would it?

Of course not.

Accurately or not, in this discussion, I was under the impression that "taking PED's" also implies "or taking PED's in greater than legal amounts".

This thread started off, and continued talking, about the negative perceptions of athletes that break the rules ... and that was where my comments were based.

If cheating is the issue, then introducing thresholds doesn't make the problem worse. It simply shifts the parameters.

Certainly, I agree. I believe the word I used was "more severe" (by definition, "very dangerous"), not "worse". The incidence of cheating would be the same (hypothetically), but because of the increased amounts being used, would be more severe (or dangerous).

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --