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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [etocaj] [ In reply to ]
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we're still in the infancy of brandbuilding...

No, people don't come and say they're "doing an EndorFUN", BUT they DO KNOW that if it's an EndorFUN event, it'll be fun and well run, and exceed expectations. That's BRANDING. Truthfully, I'd prefer each of our events to stand on their own, and you come because it's a great event. Not, "oh, it's a qualifier for this or that." I want it be about YOU wanting to come because the race is kickass and fun, and the Race is the end, not the means to an end....It's a festival, and it's VERY family friendly....

Same as NAS. You don't worry about the quality of the event when you sign up.

Our goal is to build that huge loyalty amongst athletes, by doing it the right way. BTW, we DID have a pretty big contingent coming from the Northeast for Lone Star ON APRIL 1...There was still 3 feet of snow on the ground there, and no one had even been outside on their bikes...That makes me really proud of what we do.

So, yup, it is brandbuilding. It's just different than Ironman Brandbuilding. Don't be surprised if we add additional events, but they may not be HIM's....For me, this is supposed to be fun. So, if we find locations that are fantastic and worldclass, we'll organize something there. The distances and weekend will be dictated by what's there....We've got an idea for a three day weekend for 2008, with a kids race, oly, sprint, and bike time trial...No HIM, but tons of fun in maybe the nicest venue we'd have. That excites me:)

And, people will come. Why? Because they're confident the race will be great, because we're doing it. That's branding.....
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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Your 3 day race sounds really intriguing. Olympic distance race - bike time trial. 3-days. Best location. Sounds really exciting. How about some more details?
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [reggiedog] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're mixing up execution of an event with the importance of brand building to marketing (e.g. copy what existing races do right). I'm a marketing guy, and I think beyond event execution the thing that holds back the smaller races from becoming bigger races is poor marketing. I say this from having consulted for triathlons, adventure races, bike races, ski resorts and other stuff. Most of them are all too focused on how the event will go off (good thing) and not getting people to sign up. There's a killer multi-day bike race in the western US that could rival Sea Otter, but they can't grasp how to market to a larger audience and establish themselves in the marketplace.

Regardless, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this, so we might as well agree to disagree.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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Perfect example of branding (and at the risk of tossing in more marketing lingo), product differentiation and good positioning (eg. what makes you different from Ironman) -- the pillars of marketing.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Jon] [ In reply to ]
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We'll let you know once we have commitments...Meeting with the folks next Tues. All the lodging onsite as well, fireworks Sat evening, bands, great food, beer...We'll actually announce it soon, if it's a go....
K
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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I am in the range of Timberman (metro NYC), have been in the sport for a long time and do a lot of races. Over the years I know lots of people who do Timberman and hear lots of discussion about it pre-season in person, in newsletters and on forums. Not once in probably 200 "impressions" has "Endorfun" ever been mentioned.

If you think that is your "brand", you are mistaken. You have a collection of individual brands as race names, not a parent brand. A few people might give you feedback that the Endorfun "brand" matters (likely the same minority who in December crowed that 101 would be a smash success), and you might think of building the Endorfun brand going forward, but to your existing business, it doesn't register.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [reggiedog] [ In reply to ]
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As mentioned, I'm more trying to build a brand for each race....BUT, if people see that we're putting on the race, it means something. Maybe not to everyone, but to quite a few people. Ultimately, it's my goal for each race to stand on it's own, as a great race. RD's seem to be all about series, and qualifiers, etc....Come to our race because it's a great race, not because it's part of a series. I think 101 would be better served by this as well....Does it actually mean something to qualify for the 101 world championships at one of the other races? Not so much, I'd say....

Same thing as Clearwater, for Ironman 70.3. Most applauded the idea of the series, and the championship, but the qualifying slots weren't as coveted as expected the first year. Yet, people went to the Mdot branded 70.3's. More, imo, because they feel that the Mdot stands for quality....
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]

...because they feel that the Mdot stands for quality....[/reply]

As lemmings are to a cliff, triathletes are to the IM brand.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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SOB I hate to have to blow smoke up KJ's skirt but I will even though he dogged me out the other day...

Lonestar was my first EndorFun race. Honestly I didn't really know WTH EndorFUN was until I crashed his message board to hijack threads.

The reason that I signed up for the Galveston race was basically I had heard from people I trust that Keith put on some of the best races in the country. His comitment to excellence was my motivation.

My coach did the 101 and said it was an awesome race. She loved the atmosphere and the payday. I might be having knee surgery again next week (if I don't jump off a brigde) missing IMCDA. If I do I am 99% certain I will sign up for the woodlands race.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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Say what you want about the lemmings, but the MDot is still THE brand in longcourse triathlon. Why? Because for the most part, people view them as the best. Before you try to refute that, I qualified it as saying "for the most part"....That's reality, whether you agree or not. The masses think they're well done...
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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I'll also say, despite all the bitching and moaning about Mdots that we see on this forum, they're still the only races that draw the numbers...

I'd guess that the athletes who complain, are among the first to sign up....Nothing wrong with it. For Long course, they're still the standard. Are they perfect? Nope, but no one is.....
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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Some of what you say is true, however, I believe the reason that people sign up for the IM branded race goes FAR FAR FAR beyond the race being a quality race, which for the most part, it is. Lake Placid was a cool race, however, is it any better than Silverman or The Grand Columbian? Heck no. In my opinion, a LOT of the athletes that sign up for an IM branded race do so because they need lots of people to see them doing it and just want to be associated with the IM brand. Nothing really wrong with it, aside from being a big vain but I think triathletes in general are a fairly bunch.
If triathletes would venture outside of the IM brand, they would see how many other awesome races there are.
just my 2 cents.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
What damage are you talking about exactly?? Is anyone out there less likely to enter one of the next 3 races because their was only 150 at the first one??
Yes.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Some of what you say is true, however, I believe the reason that people sign up for the IM branded race goes FAR FAR FAR beyond the race being a quality race, which for the most part, it is. Lake Placid was a cool race, however, is it any better than Silverman or The Grand Columbian? Heck no. In my opinion, a LOT of the athletes that sign up for an IM branded race do so because they need lots of people to see them doing it and just want to be associated with the IM brand. Nothing really wrong with it, aside from being a big vain but I think triathletes in general are a fairly bunch.
If triathletes would venture outside of the IM brand, they would see how many other awesome races there are.
just my 2 cents.
I totally agree with you!

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
What damage are you talking about exactly?? Is anyone out there less likely to enter one of the next 3 races because their was only 150 at the first one??
Yes.
You actually don't count, since you've yet to change my mind that you are a shill for WTC or NAS.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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I'd say what makes IM Lake Placid great is the time of year, proximity to NYC, Boston and surrounding areas, and the location of the race - a nice town with lots of nice hotels, a lake in the middle, and once you are in town, no need for a car again. I can't think of another northeatern U.S. race with all of these qualities.

With that said, I don't think I'll be back, because I don't think IM is particularly healthy, while I think triathlon is really healthy, and I would rather be healthy and able to know I've done 2 IM's than unhealthy and able to know I've done 3.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Jon] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I'd say what makes IM Lake Placid great is the time of year, proximity to NYC, Boston and surrounding areas, and the location of the race - a nice town with lots of nice hotels, a lake in the middle, and once you are in town, no need for a car again. I can't think of another northeatern U.S. race with all of these qualities.

[/reply]

Good points. I would agree with all of that. And all us Ontarioans are a short jump across the border. LP is pretty unique in that way.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Jon] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, this is why I stopped at 1. Shorter stuff fits better into my overall lifestyle and health goals.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree about venturing outside of the brand. I've already said that several times, that there are ALOT of great races out there. By saying Mdot races are great, I'm NOT saying that non-Mdot races aren't....

BTW, of course I'd say that....every race we produce is an independent, except for Timberman, which has clearwater slots. BUT, it was an independent race before last year....
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I did not participate in those races, however a cursory glance at my AG's shows 233 at IMLP with 46 going sub 12 hrs, vs 19 total at Silverman with the winner in 12 hrs & with a lead that could allow him to walk it in. Many AG's sign up far in advance for WTC / IMNA races and Oly races like St.Anthony's because they represent the best competetive enviroment to test their athletic abilities.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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I've enjoyed being an armchair RD the past couple of days on this forum, but I congratulate the 101 folks for taking some serious monetary and time risks with the series. It's easy to criticize and much tougher to try to create something different.

But since the 101 folks did mention multiple times over the weekend that they wanted our feedback:

Ditch the finish-line ramp. I didn't like it at IMH either. Keep the finish line down to earth. ;)

I did like the inflatable oneOone finish line structure. That is cool.
Last edited by: Dave Stohler: May 9, 07 15:59
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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What damage are you talking about exactly?? Is anyone out there less likely to enter one of the next 3 races because their was only 150 at the first one??[/reply]
Yes. \\\[/url]



Then I guess I wouldn't have met you at my first triathlons and Ironmans. Am I the only one, or does deciding on doing an event based on the numbers of a different race, seem shallow and ridicilous??????? Seems that many other factors would be on the list of wheather to do a race or not, but number of entrants??? I can see that too many could be a negative, but too few??? I long for the days of the 200 to 400 person fields, where most everyone was competent, but to each his own I guess.....
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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It was very nice to not have to wait in line at a porta-john or to not be fighting for space in the transition area or to have to wait in line to get food.

I was worried that it would be lonely and uninspiring on the Bradenton course with the number of entrants in the race, but with the multiple loops there was plenty of contact with the other competitors.

The DATTT is a very cool race because the field is limited to several hundred and you actually get to know new people over the weekend, unlike the large IM races where you tend to stick with your friends among the crowds.
Last edited by: Dave Stohler: May 9, 07 16:05
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [reggiedog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I am in the range of Timberman (metro NYC), have been in the sport for a long time and do a lot of races. Over the years I know lots of people who do Timberman and hear lots of discussion about it pre-season in person, in newsletters and on forums. Not once in probably 200 "impressions" has "Endorfun" ever been mentioned.

If you think that is your "brand", you are mistaken. You have a collection of individual brands as race names, not a parent brand. A few people might give you feedback that the Endorfun "brand" matters (likely the same minority who in December crowed that 101 would be a smash success), and you might think of building the Endorfun brand going forward, but to your existing business, it doesn't register.

So...it would be different if it was the "Keith Jordan" race instead of Endorfun? Seems like you're splitting hairs...the point is that many triathletes KNOW the Endorfun/KJ races will be excellent productions, either by experience or by reputation. Savvy people have some idea of who is putting on these bigger races, and though I don't think of his races a lump sum like NAS, I know they will all be well done. Case in point, when KJ was having trouble with getting the details right for a possible VA race, he canned it, rather than putting on something sub-par. Sounds like the opposite of what happened last weekend (last minute course changes, permits, etc.) That's why KJ can fill a weekend with 1500 athletes for a new race.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [bt] [ In reply to ]
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building your brand won't help if you are still not clear what business you are in. 101 set itself up as a competitor or at least, alternative, to m-dot in the triathlon business.

problem being, m-dot is not IN the triathlon business. oops.


m-dot is in the business - and the popular culture - of selling dreams. right now, someplace somewhere there is a guy walking out of a cancer clinic in remission telling himself he is going to do an ironman. there is a woman coming out of a messy divorce deciding she is going to do an ironman. there is another person on a scale declaring s/he will lose 100 pounds and do an ironman, etc etc etc. nobody anyplace is having such a "moment" and declaring they are going to "do a 101" nobody ever will. you cannot set up your business model and build your brand around something you are not. that is what they did, quite stupidly. i think i told ya so.

i also agree with one of the posters above, when he notes that the s-twitch community allowed the very vocal dissent of a very very small minority to colour their impressions of what 101 was supposed to do and be. it was the "racers race" - all 150 of them. does the phrase "vote with your feet" mean anything to ya ?? people will line up a year ahead of time in the thousands to buy a dream, and a personal slice of pop culture experience - a simple triathlon costing the same pay-scale as that will pull 150, by halving the admission price and begging. oops.
Last edited by: t-t-n: May 9, 07 15:10
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