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Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim
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Check out this video. Rim was taped with Silca tubeless tape. Can you guess how the rim was destroyed?

8 Seconds of Destroyed Enve 7.8 on Vimeo

Hint #1: The tire did NOT exert outward pressure and damage the rim; in fact, the rim track is intact on the rim and the tire is seated even after the destruction.

Hint #2: Rim was taped with Silca tubeless tape, and not ENVE tape.

BTW at some point Enve uploaded a video to their website, which, if you watch it, specifies that you must use ENVE tape, but I'm not sure when the video was uploaded and I can't find anywhere else on their website specifying this requirement, so basically unless you find and click on the video you have no way to know that using other tubeless tape, even tape that perfectly seals the spoke holes, is a potentially fatal mistake.

Now... can you guess how exactly the rim got destroyed?

Race Director, Velo Club La Grange (http://www.lagrange.org)
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Last edited by: refthimos: Jan 9, 19 10:37
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Tape didn't seal perfectly, air leaked into the deep rim section which got pressurized, failed at the attachment point with the brake track because that area of the rim isn't designed to be loaded that way?
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
Tape didn't seal perfectly, air leaked into the deep rim section which got pressurized, failed at the attachment point with the brake track because that area of the rim isn't designed to be loaded that way?


Yes, exactly! Except to be clear, the tape did "seal perfectly" over the spoke holes. In fact, it was only because the spoke holes were sealed that the wheel was then in position to be destroyed by air pressure.

I think many of us have understood that the purpose of tape is to seal the spoke holes, because once you have those sealed, and a valve stem in place to seal the valve hole, that air will then leak until the tire is seated in the rim bed, and that once you have those three areas sealed - (1) spoke holes, (2) valve hole, and (3) tire/rim bead - the tire is seated, wheel holds air and you are good to go.

But ENVE is insistent that you use their rim tape. It is wider than Silca tape, and covers much more than the spoke holes. It covers all the way to the rim bead. Why is this so important? Because it would seem that some (or all) ENVE rims have small holes/cracks/fissures in the rim bed/rim bead area. We'll call this area (4) - in addition to (1), (2), and (3) above.

So now you're seating the tire and once you get (1), (2), and (3) sealed, your air source, rather than pumping the tire up to its desired air pressure, is now pushing air out through tiny area (4), in this case right into the hollow area consisting of the side of the rim and BAAMMM! Total rim destruction.

Posting so no one makes this same mistake. I really do think Enve should make clearer in their website/written materials that using non-Enve tape can result in catastrophic rim failure.

Race Director, Velo Club La Grange (http://www.lagrange.org)
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Last edited by: refthimos: Jan 9, 19 11:02
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Advising use of proprietary tape to pretty much bandaid a design flaw. Some expensive rims for that kind of junk if you ask me.

No thanks.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Warranty claim was denied because of the failure to use ENVE tape. I am not the type to make "JRA" warranty claims and I was 100% up-front about using Silca tape. I would never in a million years have used non-ENVE tape if I had known this could have happened. I think ENVE should be much more up-front about this requirement and not simply address it for a few seconds in a video that I doubt many ENVE wheel owners have watched.

Race Director, Velo Club La Grange (http://www.lagrange.org)
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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What is the width of ENVE tape versus Silca tape?

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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I would have to measure the ENVE tape, but it is of course a little wider than the Silca tape I used.

I used the 25mm wide version of the Silca tape, but it would seem that is not wide enough.

Race Director, Velo Club La Grange (http://www.lagrange.org)
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Woof, sorry to hear that. expensive lesson for sure - I can see why enve would deny the claim on a technical basis but jeez, sound like a lose-lose scenario for both involved .

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Bummer. Sorry for your loss.

It is really surprising that there would be large enough voids in the carbon to allow air to flow through quickly enough to cause that failure. They must have very little resin in their pre-preg.

Ya kinda surprised they didn't warranty the rim. I read the directions so infrequently that could have totally happened to me.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Wow... Enve needs to have a giant red sticker on these wheels saying you must use ENVE tape your you will destroy your wheel - in several languages.

Actually, no, that is not sufficient. They need to solve this problem with the wheel itself so you do not risk this.

Having to randomly find a video on their website is obviously not good enough. Even if it's written in a user manual or on the specs page of the wheel, that is not good enough.

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www.VeloVetta.com
VeloVetta is developing AERO cycling shoes with CFD and wind tunnel testing.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Well hat is a resounding 'no' to recommending Enve to anybody ever.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Check out this video. Rim was taped with Silca tubeless tape. Can you guess how the rim was destroyed?

8 Seconds of Destroyed Enve 7.8 on Vimeo

Hint #1: The tire did NOT exert outward pressure and damage the rim; in fact, the rim track is intact on the rim and the tire is seated even after the destruction.

Hint #2: Rim was taped with Silca tubeless tape, and not ENVE tape.

BTW at some point Enve uploaded a video to their website, which, if you watch it, specifies that you must use ENVE tape, but I'm not sure when the video was uploaded and I can't find anywhere else on their website specifying this requirement, so basically unless you find and click on the video you have no way to know that using other tubeless tape, even tape that perfectly seals the spoke holes, is a potentially fatal mistake.

Now... can you guess how exactly the rim got destroyed?

I'm surprised they didn't warranty the wheels, are you original owner etc.(maybe you don't revile entire picture here?) Forget about video on their site, you are not obligated to watch it, is there any manual that comes with it that says envy only tape?, I would try taking to them a bit longer and harder, maybe via social media etc. This is clearly design F@# up by Envy. I would think envy would replace this rim for you at some small shipping cost etc without any issues. It is hard to believe reputable huge company playing games like that, even Chinese guys will ship you new rim if you cover shipping... COME ON ENVY!

Or go Wall Street american gangsta way and sue silca for not warning about envy explosion, after all Silca tape destroyed your 3000$ wheel set...
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. That sucks from Enve.
If they don't say clearly WHY you need to use their own tape, then their bodged-workaround-to-overcome-design-or-manufacturing-flaws is going to be missed.

Judt like the BS from car dealers to only use Ford / GM / VW etc (delete as suits your car) oil. It's seen as being no more than sales BS if they don't provide details and reasoning.

I've learned from this that they are selling products knowingly with porous / flawed material. FFS thats what you expect from a £400 Chinarello copy frame, not what you expect for a £2k+ set of wheels.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. They could probably add a vent hole somewhere. Am I understanding this right that all the holes that the spokes pass through are air tight?
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Thom wrote:
Interesting. They could probably add a vent hole somewhere. Am I understanding this right that all the holes that the spokes pass through are air tight?

Correct. All spoke holes sealed. Valve hole sealed. So at this point you are typically left with one last place to seal - the tire needs to snap into the rim bed. That completes the process and the tire is seated to the rim and holds air.

Except here there is a fourth location that needs to be sealed - some small opening in the rim bed that leads to the hollow area between the sides of the rim - and once that tire snaps into place and the first three locations are sealed, you are now pushing air through that tiny opening, which results in enough pressure making it through as to explode the side of the rim - even though the rim track stays intact, because the pressure in the tire is plenty low (just enough to get the tire seated on the rim).

Race Director, Velo Club La Grange (http://www.lagrange.org)
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Warranty claim was denied because of the failure to use ENVE tape. I am not the type to make "JRA" warranty claims and I was 100% up-front about using Silca tape. I would never in a million years have used non-ENVE tape if I had known this could have happened. I think ENVE should be much more up-front about this requirement and not simply address it for a few seconds in a video that I doubt many ENVE wheel owners have watched.

It's a design flaw. Next they will say you need to use ENVE tires and an ENVE pump too.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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I find it really strange that the rim is air tight enough to explode the rim if they didn't make it that way on purpose. Why would they make the rim air tight, or did it just happen by accident?

I'm going to be at an Enve dealer tonight. I'm looking forward to a closer look at one.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Thom wrote:
Interesting. They could probably add a vent hole somewhere. Am I understanding this right that all the holes that the spokes pass through are air tight?


Correct. All spoke holes sealed. Valve hole sealed. So at this point you are typically left with one last place to seal - the tire needs to snap into the rim bed. That completes the process and the tire is seated to the rim and holds air.

Except here there is a fourth location that needs to be sealed - some small opening in the rim bed that leads to the hollow area between the sides of the rim - and once that tire snaps into place and the first three locations are sealed, you are now pushing air through that tiny opening, which results in enough pressure making it through as to explode the side of the rim - even though the rim track stays intact, because the pressure in the tire is plenty low (just enough to get the tire seated on the rim).

i think Thom's point was that you would expect the air, having got into the rim, to be able to leak out of the spoke holes rather than blowing out the rim. i expect though that the internal nipples will pretty well seal this off.

i agree with other comments that enve should explain why their tape is required, otherwise its going to be taken as just meaning to use a quality tape which silca would qualify for. they should specify the exact width required as i can imagine there may now or in future be different widths of enve tape available and so that you know what else may be sufficient in the case of enve tape being unavailable. even if you use the right tape, there is always a risk that it won't be sealed well enough or will lose its seal over time... seems like a disaster waiting to happen and i imagine not unique to enve.

i love my enve wheels but their customer service really is a bit crap with things like this and recommending against using latex tubes, both statements buried deep and with no justification rather than being upfront and transparent with your customers
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
recommending against using latex tubes, both statements buried deep and with no justification rather than being upfront and transparent with your customers

Sooooo the aero advantage gained over a Yoeleo or Chinese rim is lost to wattage not using latex.

Those are hella expensive wheels for all this level of design flaws.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Just out of curiosity at what pressure did this occur or what pressure were you putting in the tires?

I am wondering if they have a air pressure limit for tubeless tires as this can potentially happen.
Last edited by: teddygram: Jan 9, 19 13:44
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Has enve weighed in on this? Do you have a copy of your communications/ them?

I feel like we should maybe wait a second for enve to comment before we all come out w/ pitchforks. Unless of course most of you already had it out for them, which sounds a bit like it by the responses.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [peace242000] [ In reply to ]
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I think that's totally fair and I've tried to just present facts, including that I used non-ENVE rim tape.

I've already paid ~$800 for a rebuilt wheel under crash replacement so this is not one of those posts trying to exert leverage over ENVE to get my wheel replaced.

I do think that ENVE could be a lot more transparent/informative about the requirement to use ENVE rim tape. It would have saved me $800. My post is meant more to educate my fellow Twitchers to not make the same mistake I did.

Race Director, Velo Club La Grange (http://www.lagrange.org)
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Last edited by: refthimos: Jan 9, 19 14:18
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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There needs to be a sticker on the wheel stating this. One that they know you will have to take off just to look unFredlike. Manual, website, packaging are all insufficient. I'll assume there was not and that it was sort of tucked away as you say, and await Enve's response.

ETA typically I can't stand long warnings of remote and random events spurred by creative lawyers and lawsuits, but this is different
Last edited by: ChrisM: Jan 9, 19 14:22
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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If you look at this page: https://www.enve.com/en/products/ses-7-8/, the recommended pressure is generally pretty low. I am not sure if this is for tubeless or tubed. So I would like to know the OP's pressure when this happened as well.
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Re: Warning: How to Destroy an Enve 7.8 Rim [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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Has something changed in the manufacturing / design of these wheels? I find it hard to believe that the vast majority are using ENVE rim tape. So, absent some recent change, we should have a graveyard full of similarly failed wheels...
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