Tape didn't seal perfectly, air leaked into the deep rim section which got pressurized, failed at the attachment point with the brake track because that area of the rim isn't designed to be loaded that way?

Yes, exactly! Except to be clear, the tape did "seal perfectly" over the spoke holes. In fact, it was only because the spoke holes were sealed that the wheel was then in position to be destroyed by air pressure.

I think many of us have understood that the purpose of tape is to seal the spoke holes, because once you have those sealed, and a valve stem in place to seal the valve hole, that air will then leak until the tire is seated in the rim bed, and that once you have those three areas sealed - (1) spoke holes, (2) valve hole, and (3) tire/rim bead - the tire is seated, wheel holds air and you are good to go.

But ENVE is insistent that you use their rim tape. It is wider than Silca tape, and covers much more than the spoke holes. It covers all the way to the rim bead. Why is this so important? Because it would seem that some (or all) ENVE rims have small holes/cracks/fissures in the rim bed/rim bead area. We'll call this area (4) - in addition to (1), (2), and (3) above.

So now you're seating the tire and once you get (1), (2), and (3) sealed, your air source, rather than pumping the tire up to its desired air pressure, is now pushing air out through tiny area (4), in this case right into the hollow area consisting of the side of the rim and BAAMMM! Total rim destruction.

Posting so no one makes this same mistake. I really do think Enve should make clearer in their website/written materials that using non-Enve tape can result in catastrophic rim failure.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Advising use of proprietary tape to pretty much bandaid a design flaw. Some expensive rims for that kind of junk if you ask me.

No thanks.

Warranty claim was denied because of the failure to use ENVE tape. I am not the type to make "JRA" warranty claims and I was 100% up-front about using Silca tape. I would never in a million years have used non-ENVE tape if I had known this could have happened. I think ENVE should be much more up-front about this requirement and not simply address it for a few seconds in a video that I doubt many ENVE wheel owners have watched.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

What is the width of ENVE tape versus Silca tape?

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Alex Arman

Strava

I would have to measure the ENVE tape, but it is of course a little wider than the Silca tape I used.

I used the 25mm wide version of the Silca tape, but it would seem that is not wide enough.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Woof, sorry to hear that. expensive lesson for sure - I can see why enve would deny the claim on a technical basis but jeez, sound like a lose-lose scenario for both involved .

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Bummer. Sorry for your loss.

It is really surprising that there would be large enough voids in the carbon to allow air to flow through quickly enough to cause that failure. They must have very little resin in their pre-preg.

Ya kinda surprised they didn't warranty the rim. I read the directions so infrequently that could have totally happened to me.

Wow... Enve needs to have a giant red sticker on these wheels saying you must use ENVE tape your you will destroy your wheel - in several languages.

Actually, no, that is not sufficient. They need to solve this problem with the wheel itself so you do not risk this.

Having to randomly find a video on their website is obviously not good enough. Even if it's written in a user manual or on the specs page of the wheel, that is not good enough.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Well hat is a resounding 'no' to recommending Enve to anybody ever.

I'm surprised they didn't warranty the wheels, are you original owner etc.(maybe you don't revile entire picture here?) Forget about video on their site, you are not obligated to watch it, is there any manual that comes with it that says envy only tape?, I would try taking to them a bit longer and harder, maybe via social media etc. This is clearly design F@# up by Envy. I would think envy would replace this rim for you at some small shipping cost etc without any issues. It is hard to believe reputable huge company playing games like that, even Chinese guys will ship you new rim if you cover shipping... COME ON ENVY!

Or go Wall Street american gangsta way and sue silca for not warning about envy explosion, after all Silca tape destroyed your 3000$ wheel set...

Yes. That sucks from Enve.
If they don't say clearly WHY you need to use their own tape, then their bodged-workaround-to-overcome-design-or-manufacturing-flaws is going to be missed.

Judt like the BS from car dealers to only use Ford / GM / VW etc (delete as suits your car) oil. It's seen as being no more than sales BS if they don't provide details and reasoning.

I've learned from this that they are selling products knowingly with porous / flawed material. FFS thats what you expect from a £400 Chinarello copy frame, not what you expect for a £2k+ set of wheels.

Interesting. They could probably add a vent hole somewhere. Am I understanding this right that all the holes that the spokes pass through are air tight?

Correct. All spoke holes sealed. Valve hole sealed. So at this point you are typically left with one last place to seal - the tire needs to snap into the rim bed. That completes the process and the tire is seated to the rim and holds air.

Except here there is a fourth location that needs to be sealed - some small opening in the rim bed that leads to the hollow area between the sides of the rim - and once that tire snaps into place and the first three locations are sealed, you are now pushing air through that tiny opening, which results in enough pressure making it through as to explode the side of the rim - even though the rim track stays intact, because the pressure in the tire is plenty low (just enough to get the tire seated on the rim).

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

It's a design flaw. Next they will say you need to use ENVE tires and an ENVE pump too.

I find it really strange that the rim is air tight enough to explode the rim if they didn't make it that way on purpose. Why would they make the rim air tight, or did it just happen by accident?

I'm going to be at an Enve dealer tonight. I'm looking forward to a closer look at one.

i think Thom's point was that you would expect the air, having got into the rim, to be able to leak out of the spoke holes rather than blowing out the rim. i expect though that the internal nipples will pretty well seal this off.

i agree with other comments that enve should explain why their tape is required, otherwise its going to be taken as just meaning to use a quality tape which silca would qualify for. they should specify the exact width required as i can imagine there may now or in future be different widths of enve tape available and so that you know what else may be sufficient in the case of enve tape being unavailable. even if you use the right tape, there is always a risk that it won't be sealed well enough or will lose its seal over time... seems like a disaster waiting to happen and i imagine not unique to enve.

i love my enve wheels but their customer service really is a bit crap with things like this and recommending against using latex tubes, both statements buried deep and with no justification rather than being upfront and transparent with your customers

Sooooo the aero advantage gained over a Yoeleo or Chinese rim is lost to wattage not using latex.

Those are hella expensive wheels for all this level of design flaws.

Just out of curiosity at what pressure did this occur or what pressure were you putting in the tires?

I am wondering if they have a air pressure limit for tubeless tires as this can potentially happen.

Has enve weighed in on this? Do you have a copy of your communications/ them?

I feel like we should maybe wait a second for enve to comment before we all come out w/ pitchforks. Unless of course most of you already had it out for them, which sounds a bit like it by the responses.

I think that's totally fair and I've tried to just present facts, including that I used non-ENVE rim tape.

I've already paid ~$800 for a rebuilt wheel under crash replacement so this is not one of those posts trying to exert leverage over ENVE to get my wheel replaced.

I do think that ENVE could be a lot more transparent/informative about the requirement to use ENVE rim tape. It would have saved me $800. My post is meant more to educate my fellow Twitchers to not make the same mistake I did.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

There needs to be a sticker on the wheel stating this. One that they know you will have to take off just to look unFredlike. Manual, website, packaging are all insufficient. I'll assume there was not and that it was sort of tucked away as you say, and await Enve's response.

ETA typically I can't stand long warnings of remote and random events spurred by creative lawyers and lawsuits, but this is different

If you look at this page: https://www.enve.com/en/products/ses-7-8/, the recommended pressure is generally pretty low. I am not sure if this is for tubeless or tubed. So I would like to know the OP's pressure when this happened as well.

Has something changed in the manufacturing / design of these wheels? I find it hard to believe that the vast majority are using ENVE rim tape. So, absent some recent change, we should have a graveyard full of similarly failed wheels...

Sorry guys, not avoiding the question but need to check with my LBS to confirm the answer.

I would note that when a clincher tire fails from over-inflation, it is because the tire exerts too much outward force at the tire bead, which causes the rim track to fail.

With my wheel, the rim track is intact, no issues there - in fact you can see that the tire stayed seated. It's just that the side of the rim blew up and separated from the rest of the rim. That's all! /sarcasm

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Mine where ordered from wheelbulder.com.... pretty sure they did not use Enve tape. If they fail, I will have wheel builder cover it.

to my understanding its not really that you have to use enve's tape, just that you have to use the right width which is wider than you might expect.
enve, not surprisingly, say to use theirs but anything that seals to the right width should not be a problem in practice (although enve may still refuse warranty if there was to be a problem)

Whoa that... that's a new failure mode. I agree: Enve should be totally clear about their tape requirement.

So this would apply to all tubeless ready Enve rims? Including the 3.4's and their MTB rims? I have 3 different friends who own the 7.8's (might be an older non tubeless version though), the new 3.4's that are tubeless, and the M50 MTB wheels.

Exactly.

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tinman

And I suppose if Enve put a vent hole in the hollow area (as not designed to get pressurized) the consequence will be the tubeless tyre will simply not be pressurized, or not for long.

At least, it would not destroy the rim, simply give a signal "hey, this is not sealed, please seal me with larger tape".

So basically the tape need to cover all carbon surface, from left tyre wall to right tyre wall ?

Are you running tubeless? If you're using a tube this is not really an issue... the only thing the tape does is it prevents the latex from ballooning through the spoke holes. If you're running tubeless like the OP then you have a problem.

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What's your CdA?

Im some lady can win a lawsuit from McDonalds because they didn't put "coffee is hot" on cup (which is common sense)

I think you could pressure them with a letter from a lawyer since they don't specify this. Amazing what a letter with a law firm header can do.

people are quick to reference this case as a frivolous lawsuit, but most who actually read the details of the case come to the conclusion her claims were justified

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

There is surprisingly little information out on the web about this issue with their wheels. I had this same explosion happen to a pair of my SES tubeless wheels and it shocked me. Mine had tape that ran the full width in the rim. Same Schwable Pro One tire model as you. Mine were 28c at about 70psi. I used to worry about latex tubes failing in overheated carbon clinchers, but seeing one of these rims blow apart is a lot more worrisome:(

Around the time mine failed Enve had just sent out that list of "approved" tubeless tires and the pressure tables. This wasn't around previously. I have to think there are incidents out there driving the multiple revisions to their recommendations. I haven't seen the Enve-only rim tape reference you mention.

Your new crash replacement build probably came with their new Red rim tape. I worked extra hard to be sure the new rims were completely clean and that the tape went down smooth and with wrap up the inner walls of the rim. It is hard not to think about it when really moving along with this wheelset.

FWIW. I have been using Silca tape in place of nylon rim strips on Zipp wheels with inner tubes for several years with good success. This past summer I used Silca tape for a set of Edco carbon tubeless aero wheels that I mounted up with Schwable Pro Ones. With fairly low mileage this combo went to Hawaii for a month of training and the tape failed about two weeks into the trip on a very hot day while stopped for a fluid refill. The result was just a leak down vs. any catastrophic rim failure. The tape adhesive failed and even at full width the tire bead didn't provide enough bite to keep air/sealant from pushing under the edge of the tape. These were 23c tires and run at more like 80psi. Had to take it to Bikeworks because minimal tools/supplies around. They said they'd seen this with a number of tubeless rims and used thicker Spec 2Bliss rim strips in place of the Silca tape for the Edcos. No problems at all after this switch. Though we haven't had to pull the tires so the thicker rim strip could make that harder.

Is there any data as to similar issues from other tubeless wheel makers?

I know you guys mentioned the spoke holes being tight enough to not leak air, but what about where the valve stem goes through? The aero part it exits through, the fit can't be that tight, no way. I thought the sealed rubber piece of the valve would be inserted only in the structural rim bed itself. Meaning the wiggle room in the deep part of the rim would let air escape.

Did this happen on the tubeless "burp" of initial rapid pressurization to seat the tire, or during steady state holding pressure?

Thank you for making this reply to an uneducated post. It's a super interesting story. The short version for Twinkie is that there were already ~700 documented instances of people getting burned and this elderly lady nearly died after getting 2nd and 3rd degree burns over a large part of her body. McDonalds refused to cover her out of pocket medical costs for skins grafts and other fun stuff. She had to sue them or go bankrupt. Crazy stuff about McDonalds and their coffee practices came out. The jury tried to prove a point after how flippant McDonalds' lawyers (and witnesses) treated the whole thing. She was awarded much less than the mediator originally suggested for her damages. However, she was awarded 2 days of national coffee sales as punitive damages which were a couple million. The judge quickly reduced that number to less than half a million. McDonalds appealed and they eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. Anything after that is just opinion. She may have been too broke to wait out appeals.

But towards the original topic, this seems like an oversight that something so small can destroy a rim. What if the right tape was just partially installed wrong or the 'wrong' tape was covering almost enough and it all let go on a ride? I think we're all relieved that refthimos is out a little money instead of teeth and limbs from wrecking when a rim blew up.

this is one of the things that concerns me here - even if you happen to know all the specific tape requirements, at some point the tape is going to fail due to heat, age etc. proactive maintenance will hopefully avoid that but you would expect a non-catastrophic immediate result of normal wear and tear.

i'm also intrigued that the pressure is sufficient to blow out the rim - surely in a rim as wide and deep as a 7.8 there is enough space relative to the tyre that the pressure would be very low. this suggests that the rims are very fragile against side forces. a 2.2 would be completely obliterated in the same situation due to its lower depth and hence volume

i'm going to stick with tubes in my 7.8s (as i was intending anyway)

sorry to hear about this. They don't put weep holes in the side to allow water to drain if you ride in the rain or through a puddle or is that only on non-carbon rims. I'm not near a pair to check. I know for sure my campy aluminum rims have weep holes. This would have given a release point for air trapped under the rim strip.

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Great things never come from comfort zones.

What is strange about this is that if you have not sealed the rim properly on any MTB rim, the fluid will for sure find it's way out around the valve at much lower pressures, mostly in the low 20's.
Everybody thinks that the valve is leaking around the base so they tighten it and then replace thinking it is the problem when the real problem is elsewhere, usually a rim joint in an alloy rim.

So I find it difficult to believe that any air escaping into the faired part of these wheels could possible be trapped there when fluid will always find it's way out at much lower pressures in any other rim.
Also bodes bad for wheel longevity if the rim is porous as any amount of fluid inside the rim will quickly corrode the alloy nipples.
This design is death and should be taken off the market.

Funnily enough, this problem has never surfaced on even the cheapest Chinese rims.

I don't think air would be trapped if it was slowly leaking. I'd suspect it was the rate at which it escapes into the fairing area. It still seems crazy that 70 psi in a tire then expanding into an additional area (reduced pressure?) would blow the wheel apart.

Enve has always highlighted that their wheels use spoke holes that are formed rather than drilled. They use brass internal nipples and these appear to bed tightly in the internal nipple seat of the fairing (I know this detail from seeing the inside of the setup on mine!). This might mean the only place fluid (and air) can easily pass out of the Enve fairing area is the valve stem hole (if open).

https://www.enve.com/...he-internal-nipples/

Carbon rims with drilled spoke holes and external nipples (Zipp) appear more porous. I've experienced very wet riding conditions where water makes it's way into the rim by what I assume is passing through the spoke holes.

This thread is a great argument for 'real' tubeless wheels - without spoke holes inside the rim bed. Like the old Shimano Ultegras.

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***

Dont easton carbon clincher wheels like the aero55 have this feature?

x100

Yup, beyond justified.
She nearly died in the ordeal.

But, in response, mcdonald's basically told her to piss off and couldn't be bothered to help her with her very substantial medical costs. Customer care at its best.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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They do! Also, it's crazy that they don't get more love. They're probably the best all-around wheelset I've ever ridden. In addition to the smooth 19mm internal channel, the 55s are as tough as they come, braking surface is awesome, they handle gusts better than any wheel I've ridden (shallow or deep), look the part, and have nice hubs.

As to their robustness, which the smooth inner channel may play a part (conjecture here, really), there was an incident where I ran off the road about a month ago. I got distracted for a moment and drifted a bit too far right. This was right before the entrance to a new development and my luck had me have to go into a shallow ravine which I was able to ride out, but the only way safely back onto the pavement was by jumping the up onto the concrete curb. I only had one hand firmly on the bars, as the other was holding my Lara bar (yes I was eating when I road off) I wasn't able to hop up onto the curb and had to ride it. Suffice it to say that I hit the curb hard enough (about 4-5" above the dirt surface so I caught the full force of that concrete edge) that I flatted my front Pro One and thought for sure the rim was trashed. But it wasn't even knocked out of true, dented, or nicked in any way. This is running 55psi in the 23c Pro One.

Yeah, I love my wheels. ;)

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My YouTubes

Aren’t Yoeleos like that? They install the spoke nipples through the valve hole and rattle them over.

I have Giant PSLR and they have vent, i was wondering why (was thinking about water evacuation on rainy day), now i know why. So it's not about holes in the rim. I think the tape story is bullshit because any slightly wrong tape installation could result in similar failure. There are often leak at the valve that could result in similar problems. Another solution would be not to make the valve airtight at the top which is of no use.

I believe this is relevant to this thread.
https://www.enve.com/en/journal/behind-the-product-pressure-relief-valve-stem-nut/

Funny, I thought the same thing when I received an email from Enve this morning with a link to that article. I very much would have preferred to purchase some pressure release valve stem nuts than pay the >$800 it cost me to replace my destroyed front wheel.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

A fix to a problem that only Enve wheels have. It reinforces that the OP’s wheel should have been replaced under warranty.

Kind of mind boggling that the difference between catastrophic rim failure and no damage are those 4 tiny air release channels in the valve stem nut. I’ve had rim tape fail on other carbon clincher tubeless installs that result in a flat tire. I guess this confirms that the difference is due to some level of air relief at the spoke holes.

That is crazy that they release that article March 5, 2019! And ENVE WAS at the top of my list but this whole thread has me scared... especially when you have had this experience and ENVE has this to say on their website;
"We have great confidence in our product and we want you to have the same, so we offer an exceptional Five-Year No Hassle Warranty and a Lifetime Loyalty Guarantee. If something goes wrong or isn’t meeting your expectations just call us. A real person will answer the phone, happy to talk to you.
We don’t take your investment in performance for granted. Our customers are family and that’s how we promise to always treat you"

Please let us know if you get any recourse or feedback from ENVE...

that being said, the Yoeleo SAT 88 rims have my attention with no spoke holes...

Good luck with that. Wheelbuilder weren't terribly interested in my wheel that they'd improperly dished.

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_____________________________________________________
"Oh man, it's going to take days to kill all these people!" - Jens Voigt

I had this exact problem on my new 4.5 AR disc wheels. Kept getting an air leak at the nut on the rear wheel after it got re-dished(and thus re-taped) and couldn't figure it out. My mechanic re-taped(with 2 different brands, but not Enve brand) the wheel 3x, and finally it stopped. That's when I found out from Enve that you have to be using their tape.


I just ordered some of those nuts, which I think is lame. At a minimum they should be sending them to every warranty holder on record free. Odd to think that the air leak at the nut, was the thing saving me from a catastrophic blow out, and now they are designing nuts to leak intentionally.

What their write up doesn't say, is that should you make it out on the road before this depressurization, all the air will likely slow leak out of your tire, and you'll be stuck with a flat you can't fix.

Somebody mentioned this earlier, but if air gets under the tape it'll often come out at the valve as well. It can be confusing and make you think that you need to tighten the valve stem. But the air is getting under the tape and coming out the valve stem hole, and it's not air leaking around the rubber/tape interface of the tubeless valve. I'm pretty slow on the uptake sometimes and it took me way too long to really understand that it wasn't really the valve, if you get some sealant out the spoke holes it's a bit more intuitive, at least for me.

I haven't ridden Enve in a long time and never tubeless but unless it was very clearly marked and done so as to draw my attention to it I'd never consider that there could be some restriction on the type of tape I use. Same for that new valve, if they include them with the wheels then I'd use them because I'm cheap but if not I normally only think about which brands I like to use and making sure they're long enough.

I do think even a poor tape job should at most result in a flat tire, anything more than that seems to be a poor design. It is after all tape, I don't feel like there should be that much riding on some adhesive backed plastic. The idea that I could be a poor tape job from a wheel explosion doesn't sit right anymore than if my handlebars were dependent on my handlebar tape being perfect or the whole front end might come apart.

Edited because I really gooned up my "quote" oops

Perhaps it's anecdotal, perhaps it's simply bad luck but Enve's been garnering some pretty negative press these days. I first noticed it when Leuscher posted a fairly damning video dissection of an Enve rim a few years ago. Pinkbike bashed Enve extremely harshly recently, and suggested that the MTB rims are straight up dangerous. The company has admitted in the past couple of weeks that there's been a rash of bead failures reported on their wheels (while claiming that other brands are equally problematic). I'm not saying that Enves are dangerous or uniquely prone to failure, certianly all of this is hardly definitive. Still, arguing that Enves are superior to other options is becoming increasingly tenuous.

Every major bike brand is selling high quality own-branded carbon rims as standard on increasingly less expensive complete bikes. Far less expensive but high quality direct sales options have proliferated. Given the commoditization of quality carbon rims and resulting falling prices I don't get why Enve feels they can continue to charge the premium prices they do. The fact that they're made in the USA only carries so much weight in the market. Perhaps they can't charge these prices any more. Note that Amer is currently trying to sell Enve, indicating that all is likely not well with Enve's numbers.

I agree with this. You can't tell me that the tape has such a massive impact so as to destroy the entire wheel. They should fix the design so that an accessory isn't actually a fundamental piece of the product's functioning. I would imagine you could get a lawyer to write them an email for free and they will quickly replace your wheels.

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Nourish - Sports Nutrition Made Easy

I don't have any Enve wheels but was considering a 4.5 set. Based on your experience there is no chance I would buy Enve. It seems like an extremely poor design. One often hears the value of going with a supposedly 'tier 1' brand vs an open mold Chinese wheel. Your experience makes it tough to justify paying a premium for Enve.

I have seen on the fairing style wheels that there are small holes to let water escape and not get trapped. Why not do the same thing and have a small hole in the side of the rim to let air and water escape.