Weeew!

Yes, agreed. And, IF TRUE, they are getting that 'sentence' because the USADA's case is preposterously weak as it stands and they need every last dribble of help they can muster. Just my humble opinion of course....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Let's take for a second that there's no long term harm, though for some of the drugs on the list there have been proven long term health issues.

The idea of fair sport where no one should be doping is the whole point. Just because the anti doping agencies cant catch everyone before they use, or during use doesnt mean they shouldnt try. That's the point and it means everyone who argues what you just argue will never have a leg to stand on.

Or, they can just legalize it all. Then everyone is on the same footing, or at least no worse in terms of being competitive than they are now.

Well if those guys needs a deal to testify and they too doped, its fairly obvious USPS was running a team wide program. So far Liberty Seguros, Festina, and Kelme have also been exposed with team wide programs, and during that time, most of the lead riders across all the teams from 98-08. So if Armstrong and the rest of USPS were ordered to dope I think those are very different circumstances and the fault lies more on the management than the riders. Regardless, the sport is a mess and they need to start doing lifetime bans not only for the rides, but for the team directors and doctors as well.

I know USADA has their own intentions why to do this but I just see this hurting the sport on a very large scale. The die hards of cycling know Armstrong is a doper but general public has no idea and this will hurt the sports growth in the long run.

If Armstrong is indeed found guilty, the tour will have dopers involved in 14 titles of the last 16 years (Evans, Sastre being the exception). There really isn't a good solution on how to deal with his 7 titles. If you vacate it then a slew of former champions comes in question (including Merckx and Anquetil), if you keep it the public will raise questions. 2003 would be a complete joke to sort out.

Except, no. Legalizing doesnt make clean sport it just means legal dirty sport. taking drugs legally for other than a medical use is still to get an advantage and if anything it will push people that much harder to look for the new unproven drug that may be more dangerous than anything on the market.

Except that people are already looking for new unproven drugs to avoid detection or use of masking agents, etc.

Except, without the USADA, WADA, etc. how much money will be saved on their bureaucracy and failed enforcement efforts.

How much better research will be done with respect to finding safer and more effective performance enhancing drugs.

Think about it.

Right, and just because we can't stop the drug cartels from buying weapons, importing drugs, destroying our culture and country, we shouldn't keep trying? Despite the billions we've spent on the drug wars while not making any progress and watching the drug cartels come to damn near OWN the Mexican Government? Thank God it isn't time to try another approach, eh?

This naive notion that life must be fair is a very slender reed to justify the huge expense of the various drug wars. If a man is born with a high VO2max (i.e., he's one lucky S.O.B. in the aerobic department), why does it matter if someone uses drugs to level the playing field or even get an advantage? So what? Baseball and football players unions have seen this for exactly what it is, and the owners have pretty much gone along. Bicycling is run into the ground by the UCI and its attendant organizations. They give weenie a whole new meaning.... Just look at bike regulations.....

Anyway, we need a new paradigm, or we need to adapt an old paradigm, such as leave the bastards alone. If we ever figure out a way to stop war, hunger, and stupidity then maybe we can re-visit this problem. Right now, we have enough problems with rogue nations going nuclear and the Russians and USA armed to the teeth. All of which could very much make these parochial arguments moot.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

sorry, your entire argument is based on the false premise that everyone is already looking for these drugs.

If the peloton has little use for peds, people exporing them is an outlier as it should be.

The best part of this is you continue to change your argument when you get backed into a corner each time.

Doping is not part of clean sport, nor should it be by most peoples opinion.

Police cant stop all or even most crime. Should we not have police?

I can understand where JRenfro is coming from and there is some logic to it but the problem is it will have different effects for every athlete, and some will risk their lives to get a victory.

I do think its ironic that we are developing drugs that save, enhance, and extend life but are looked at negatively because a few abuse them.

Will always have use for PEDs. $$$$$. Salary, sponsorship deals, pressure for performance placed by team ownership on riders...etc. Peleton will always have use for PEDs.

some in the peloton will always attempt to use them. The weak willed and underperforming will reach for them, those seeking the easy way. the ones we as fans want making a living in the sport, the ones we should be willing to support, wont. There are already teams and sponsors that are intentionally working against the use of PEDs.

I'm not changing my argument.

My first argument is Lance has never tested positive for using PEDs.

My second argument is USADA is instituting a witch hunt to get Lance.

My third argument is a general argument on the futility and uselessness of anti-doping agencies. This is just a general policy argument, not necessarily related to Lance.

Lie Detectors.

Not good enough for a courtroom, but should be good enough for the peloton. And cheap, too.

Fail a lie detector and you get additional scrutiny - blood testing, further interviews and investigation into the aspects of lie detector you failed.
Pass the lie detector and go on your merry way without peeing in a cup or having blood drawn.

Think Lance would agree to a lie detector?

Look at the history of PED use in sports, and show me how effective anti-doping rules are and have been.

People here argue, look the entire peloton was doping. So Lance must have also. It isn't like their weren't rules against doping back in the 90s and early 2000s.

How many Olympians, baseball players, football players, etc dope. You only know about the ones who get caught, but I can assure you the number who get caught are much less than the number who actually use these PEDs.

While everyone may not be using PEDS, so many are that it is better to legalize their use than to try and outlaw their use.

Look at prostitution - except for Nevada it is illegal. Many consider it immoral. The same as the way people think about using PEDs in sports. Laws against prostitution, not only cause more problems than legalizing it, but it also lands up being useless in curbing it prevalence.

People may want to rethink this: http://economics.uchicago.edu/...%205.pdf?q=venkatesh

Now you are cracking me up.




Yes, that sure makes up "some." How about majority of top pro level cyclists instead? Guess they are all "weak willed."

Guess cycling is filled with weak willed athlets: http://en.wikipedia.org/...ing_cases_in_cycling

Who knew it went back to 1886?

I don't know what Lance would agree to.

Bottom line, is that he shouldn't have to deal with the witch hunt in the first place.

And I disagree with all 3 of your arguments and have facts to stand behind all of them. All you have are opinions, some of which fly in the face of facts.

If he did not dope, then you are right. He is being seriously persecuted by USADA and all the players in the massive conspiracy against him. One seriously unlucky dude if he actually has been clean all along.

If he did dope, then bullshit - he absolutely should have to deal with the witch hunt, and he absolutely should have to return his winnings and incentive money to SCA, have his titles taken away, his fame tarnished, etc....

yep, because they took winning over having personal integrity.
And I recognize how long doping has gone in cycling. The problem has always been that fans have allowed it to continue by not pushing for more each time an anti-doping or NF agency makes an impact, we/they have instead let it fade away.

The fact that it has happened in the past doesnt mean it has to happen in the future.

Seems like all you have are opinions and the opinions based off of supposed leaked "evidence" and investigative journalists. Cause we all know that is always true, right?

Please show us the facts of Lance testing positive.

Please explain to me how going after 1 person, while letting at least 5 people walk is not a witch hunt, especially in light of Lance not testing positive for using PEDs.

Please explain to me how if the USADA, WADA etc. are so effective and stamping out PED use from sports, nearly the entire peloton was doping in the 90s and 2000s. How East Germany managed to have an organized doping regime and not get caught. How current and former Olympians who used PEDs managed to compete and win medals and not be prevented from doing so.

Hahaha, right...... Good luck with that one. Whenever there is money involved and prestige, you will always have it. Same argument about the war on drugs and the war on terrorism. "Just because we have terrorism now, doesn't mean we need it in the future. That is why we need to kill all those guys hiding in caves."

Come on mate, get off your high horse.

1. His 2010 test results violate the passport guidelines
2. There's no proof who the witnesses are, nor what deals they were given. Vaughters came out to say no one on Garmin has a pending or current suspension regarding Armstrong. Their only suspension was Rasmussin due to whereabouts.
3. The whole point is they are working towards it now. doping was largely ignored because they were ineffective in fighting it. Now theyre getting more help from former dopers in exchange for shorter bans, and they have scientists developing drugs of their own so they have chemical signatures to look for. New tests are being developed.


Again, youre essentially saying why have police if they cant catch all crime.

TO:...By making various performance enhancing drugs illegal, the Anti-doping authorities have curtailed research into creating restorative and regenerative medicines that may help improve tissue repair and recovery, improve performance in the work place and in other activities of general life, artificially increased the costs of potentially life-style improving drugs, artificially reduced R&D in making such drugs safer, and R&D in general.

OVerall, this is net negative to society as a whole. Are fricking kidding me. Ever hear who the sponsor of the Tour of California is? Amgen......Guess what they made.