Because EPO use was rampant in '96 and not possible in '85.

EPO was rampant since the early 90's....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

LiveStrong does not support cancer research

This typically comes as a surprise to many. Bill Gifford's piece in Outside published earlier this year delves into this in detail. Dan E mentioned it in a previous post here. Like Dan said, beyond the whole PED issue, it's important to understand what Livestrong actually does:

http://www.outsideonline.com/...b-Rats.html?page=all

The way I interpret it, Livestrong fills a bit of a gap. It serves as a point of assistance, and an agency of help and information dispensation, for those stricken with cancer and for their families. This is a good thing - I would imagine that staring down the barrel of a serious diganosis of Cancer, you would want that sort of help.

As for Armstrong himself, the obvious figure-head of Livestrong, I have seen even some of his harshest critics, say despite, the whole PED issue, he gives those stricken with cancer the one thing they really need, hope!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Sure and Motorola needed to get on the program whenever it was they went to Europe. If that wasn't '96 then whenever that was.

Try again. I thought you had done so much research? All of this started when Floyd got busted, took millions pf dollars from others and then when he lost his case against usada, and felony charges were initiated against him, he responded by suing lance and us postal for potentially millions of dollars in a whistleblower qui tam false claims suit. That suit is still pending. And the DOJ is still considering joining.

Think you forgot the ToC incident

Actually I didn't. Floyds financial, legal (and personal) troubles well predated the ToC events. But yes, I agree, the ToC events further precluded him from earning any income, thereby adding to his debt, and overall making him even more desperate (both financially and emotionally).

I think this line from the article puts the lie to any idea that legalizing doping will create a level playing field:

""He called Hein, after Ventoux. Said you guys and Mayo were on some new shit, told Hein to stop you," Landis is quoted as saying."

So there will always be either some dudes chemically ahead of the others, or some dudes crying foul because of perceived advantages. The irony here is that it is LA allegedly complaining about others beating him and the rest at a game they were all playing. And the implication is that one operation is controlling what is "fair"....or "level".

I think you are missing the point - the 7-11 / Motorola team had been on the Continent for quite awhile, and been successful. In addition, many of their riders are widely respected and accepted as being ardently anti-dope. Start with Andy Hampsten for one example.

Did Motorola riders dope? Almost certainly. Was there a systemic doping program there? I have no idea. Was showing up in Italy in any particular year and getting their asses kicked the genesis of a doping program? Certainly not.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

That is not correct. Flandis did not start hisq whistle-blower suit until some months after he made his revelations / accusations about Lance.

IIRC, it wasn't until the Feds had already started their inquiry before Flandis filed his suit.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I still can't understand why, knowing what we know now, why did Floyd spend so much money defending himself?

Sunk costs fallacy.

Fixed it for you.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I still can't understand why, knowing what we know now, why did Floyd spend so much money defending himself?

It's part of the "deny, deny, deny" reflex. Athletes will keep doing that despite mountains of evidence to the contrary until:

1. They finally are in a legal-under-oath situation and have to admit the truth ( but even here some will still maintain the lie and perjure themselves)

2. Run out of money and have to reverse course, confess, and then make more money off of the confession/whistle-blowing side

3. Leave the sport completely(retire), and want to clear their heads/conscious

Why do they do this - I guess at some base level we are driven by money or ego, so whatever the situation with whatever athlete, they do whatever they do, to ensure some form of livelihood and ego is maintained

It's rare for an athlete to say - "OK, I doped and I am done" That's like a financial death sentence for an athlete these days.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Haven't riders and the team doc talked about this? About riders coming to him for dope since they were clearly off the pace? EPO changed the game because it was so effective that it made it necessary to dope to be competitive.

I don't recall when Motorola went to Europe but they almost certainly realized the nature of the game at that point and what was required.

Landis was busted in 2006. He was thrown out of the protective cocoon of UCI/USAC he had expected to cover him based on living within it and seeing it in action with Lance at USPS. For four years, Landis was run through the ringer and was cycling's fall guy. He knew everybody doped, he knew the powers-that-be in cycling knew that everybody doped, but he was the one being thrown to the wolves. Made him somewhat bitter, I imagine.

2010 Landis wants to get back into pro cycling. He wants back in with the in crowd. He's got a new hip and thinks he can still compete. He has not yet coughed up all he knows to USADA, Feds. He throws out some feelers to Lance about getting a position on The Shack. He gets the cold shoulder. He gets a new domestic team together and puts out feelers to Lance and Messick about the team getting entrance to ToC. He gets the big middle finger.

Landis knows how cycling works and knows he's been given the shaft as others have gotten protection but he got tossed out like garbage. Now, he's trying to get back in and he's getting rejected. He's getting pissed and starts to make threats about spilling the beans.

It is suggested to Lance to throw out a few platitudes Floyd's way in the press to make him feel better. Nothing more. Just a few kind words that might bring him down from the ledge. Instead, LA publicly calls him an alcoholic and in need of psychiatric care.

And, after that, Floyd takes his info to the Feds and Tygart.

And, that is what started the whole ball rolling that finally brought LA down. He really shouldn't have called Floyd names. That was probably not a wise strategic move on his part.

Team Gewiss in 1994 was the eye opener.

Team Doctor: Michele Ferrari.

Team Results: Full sweep of all spring classics.

EPO was around earlier than 1994 as a few riders kicked the bucket from sludgey blood in their sleep prior to that, but Ferrari's Gewiss team was the first systematic doping program and Ferrari got the regimen down to a science. I believe it was 1994 that the rest of peloton understood EPO was a game changer and you either got on board or you got left behind.

Team Gewiss in 1994 was the eye opener.

Indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewiss-Ballan

Check out those hematocrit levels!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think Lance Armstrong was the Walter White of cycling. The drugs were there before, but he sure did raise it to a whole new level.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

"I am the danger!"

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"Wow, are you a triathlete?"
If spoken by a non-swimmer, that's a compliment. When spoken by a swimmer.... -glitch
My wife's blog http://www.hostilewit.com

FTW: "I think Lance Armstrong was the Walter White of cycling"

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Another IM in 2016 - hopefully..

Spot on.

http://twitpic.com/aq58ea

great pic of Frankie doing some reading here....

To continue the circumstantial evidence trail, the 1985 7-eleven team consisted of several riders from the 1984 US Olympic team that several members have later admitted to blood doping that Olympics. In my mind it's not to far a stretch the blood doping continued when 7-11 went to Europe. Carmichael was on that 1985 team also.