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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [hogstuff] [ In reply to ]
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hogstuff wrote:
Jordan, I don't understand all the concerns with LA fever. ANY attention directed positively towards the sport is good. I do remember back in the late 90's a young black golfer having all the attention thrown at him too, and the other pro golfers complained about it left and right. The networks were only concerned with showing Tiger, whether he was in contention or not (which he fortunately was most of the time). What was the end result? More exposure for ALL the golfers, which meant more sponsorship opportunities, more TV revenue money and ultimately, larger payouts for the participants. So in the end, everyone won. As long as LA continues to show results, which by all indications he will, everyone wins. People will follow the sport more and good things will follow (more participation by kids, better support, (hopefully) better pay days for the pros)

If as you say there are permanent effects of using PED's, then I would be curious to see just how many triathletes (both pro and AG) would be excluded from being considered 'clean'. As you said, LA never was never suspended for using PED's. And even though I am a fan of his, even I find it hard to believe he NEVER used them, ever.

But let's all hope that by having LA involved in the sport, positive things result. Perhaps it can begin at the top of our sport, with our pros.

I suppose because, fundamentally, I'm not sure I agree that "ANY attention directed positively towards the sport is good." Do the ends ALWAYS justify the means? I don't think so. But, I recognize that is a personal decision.

My sister is a doctor. She has said to me (paraphrasing), "I don't care if Lance did drugs or not. He's done great stuff for cancer." And I understand that people share that opinion. And I certainly don't want to get into a debate about whether or not LIVESTRONG has been good for cancer. My *opinion* is that, as with most large organizations, there is probably some creative accounting, but I also think it has also been an inspiration and source of good and information for many, many people. I'll leave that debate to other folks who have the time and expertise to truly dissect non-profit tax-returns. But to the larger question, I disagree with my sister. I think that if Lance's fame and success came while breaking the rules, I think that does matter. But I respect that my sister doesn't really care about niche rules applied to a bunch of guys doing a relatively niche sport that she doesn't care about. She doesn't really understand why anyone would want to race their bike around France in the first place... I do, and I suppose that's why I care.

Generally, I think that the investigation by the AUSA was unnecessary. I think the AUSA has greater obligations to society than worrying about sport. That is, in my opinion, what USADA/WADA is for. And I think that's where the investigation should stay. I'm certainly all for giving USADA/WADA more power if they need it, but I think that the CAS/WADA system is where these cases should be dealt with.

Now, I do think that positives can and will result from Lance's involvement. But I also think that there will be some downsides, just as there is with any major change, and I think Lance racing represents a major change. I just don't think change is EVER all good or all bad. There's pretty much always pluses and minuses. And I don't think that will be any different in this case. And, at least in my case, I think my OPINION is that IF (IF, IF, IF) Lance took drugs as a cyclist, I do think that should matter to people. Other folks don't. And I appreciate that it's simply opinion. I just hope we can all recognize that both opinions are valid.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [ike] [ In reply to ]
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You speak well and I love the debate. Unfortunately I cannot apologize because I have no reason to believe he is clean now. Unlike many pro triathlete's, I can afford to make such a comment because my livelihood is not effected by anything I say about him. I bet there are a lot of pro's wishing they could say something without it effecting their income.

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Adrian in Vancouver
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent

Can you point us to this so called evidence? Gracias.


http://www.pnas.org/...07/34/15111.abstract


I think 'VERY compelling' is an overstatement and it does not address the lasting effect of using EPO which was by far the most potent weapon in the arsenal of cheaters.

Francois in Montreal
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [fbrissette] [ In reply to ]
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fbrissette wrote:
the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent

Can you point us to this so called evidence? Gracias.


http://www.pnas.org/...07/34/15111.abstract


I think 'VERY compelling' is an overstatement and it does not address the lasting effect of using EPO which was by far the most potent weapon in the arsenal of cheaters.

Francois in Montreal

I'd say how compelling it is (or isn't) is a matter of opinion. Considering how remarkably difficult it has to be to get conclusive data, I'll go with what we do have, plus my own OPINION on the basic assessment of what seems obvious to me - doping (including EPO) allows you to train harder, training has a long term benefit, ergo... But I'll be the first to admit that latter is my opinion, though I know I am not alone in that opinion.

I think it's going to be hard to ever get a really good study on the subject. As humorous as it would be, can you imagine going to the starting line of a pro tour race and saying "we'd like to recruit a bunch of you all to take EPO and others to get placebo so we can see what effects are long term."

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Macho Grande wrote:
...how then could he ride and beat guys(i.e Basso, Ulrich, and more) who have all admitted using PEDS that boost performance by some 10% ? (that is 40-50 watts at their TT speed = athletes on a different planet!) ...

Rocky IV- Ivan Drago used drugs, Rocky didn't. Rocky won. Is there anyone accusing him of doping?
Didn't think so.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [triathlonshots] [ In reply to ]
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triathlonshots wrote:
camaleon wrote:
Bogusdogs wrote:
I know 'everyone' has their opinions, but if I were a pro, and I am not, I would not say ANYTHING about how Lance will never be able to "_____." It seems like every time someone makes a statement like this, they look like a fool. Ahem, Rasmus? Why don't they talk like 99% of the other triathletes and talk about how under trained they are, the injuries they are working through, that it's not their "A" race, they just signed up a few days ago...ya know, sh*$ triathletes say? Calling out someone like Lance, really only solidifies he will beat you. It is motivation for guys like him.

And for all the people that say that he is using PEDs and he has some alliance with the WTC with testing, etc., friggin' stop watching so much fantasy television. The guy is fast, he ALWAYS has been. Those that criticize him that he got 2nd in his 1st 1/2 IM... I am curious as to how the BEST triathlete would do in a pro cycling race. Think they would get 2nd? Maybe counting from the back.


x2 with this...

seem like some Pros are butt hurt cause a dude who is 40 years old with one ball and 2 or 3 years into retirement just BEAT them...



But he gets testosterone supplement for his mising ball doesn't he? So in effect he still has two(and maybe a bit extra).
I personally don't think people should be racing pro with TUE's, but hey that is a big discussion in itself.

Source please. I've been around cycling for over 25 years and the FIRST time I heard about Lance supposedly having a TUE for testosterone was on this forum yesterday.

I'm calling bullshit on that one until shown otherwise.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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Yknot wrote:
Macho Grande wrote:
...how then could he ride and beat guys(i.e Basso, Ulrich, and more) who have all admitted using PEDS that boost performance by some 10% ? (that is 40-50 watts at their TT speed = athletes on a different planet!) ...

Rocky IV- Ivan Drago used drugs, Rocky didn't. Rocky won. Is there anyone accusing him of doping?
Didn't think so.

If it was possible for there to be a worse example, I'm not sure I can think of it... Wink

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/...charge/#.Tzs9Q5iaQw8 Guess lugging logs in the Siberian wilderness wasn't enough for Sly...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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Well, here are two good reasons to doubt that he is doping now.

First, no one has offered any real evidence (of which I am aware) that Lance has doped since starting his time-off back in 2005. If there is serious evidence of such recent doping, I certainly would welcome hearing it.

Second, say what you will about the man's character, but he's not stupid. He knows he is under intense scrutiny from many angles. Testing is a lot better these days. If he doped today and got caught (whether from testing, from his drug source ratting him out, etc.) the ramifications would be enormous -- the Feds, USADA, public opinion, sponsors, etc. He might be facing jail time, loss of custody of his kids and much more. For a guy with everything that he has to turn around and risk it all at this late stage is just nuts.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Not testosterone, but he used a steroid cream. Thats pretty well established and I suspect that is the "episode" the poster is referencing.

Styrrell
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I think another compelling point is on the mental side of performance. If an athlete takes PED's and dramatically improves their performance, they have broken through mental barriers with the help of drugs. I am just speaking for how I would feel if I was a pro athlete. I would argue that it is much easier to maintain than to gain. If you can run a 12 second 100m race without drugs and then you run a 10 second 100m race after a PED program, I would imagine it is a much nicer ride to try and maintain the speed after discontinuing drugs and slide down to 11 seconds rather than training your ass off to go from 12 seconds to 11 seconds clean. Thank god I am not a pro triathlete or I would get blasted for saying this.

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Adrian in Vancouver
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
triathlonshots wrote:
camaleon wrote:
Bogusdogs wrote:
I know 'everyone' has their opinions, but if I were a pro, and I am not, I would not say ANYTHING about how Lance will never be able to "_____." It seems like every time someone makes a statement like this, they look like a fool. Ahem, Rasmus? Why don't they talk like 99% of the other triathletes and talk about how under trained they are, the injuries they are working through, that it's not their "A" race, they just signed up a few days ago...ya know, sh*$ triathletes say? Calling out someone like Lance, really only solidifies he will beat you. It is motivation for guys like him.

And for all the people that say that he is using PEDs and he has some alliance with the WTC with testing, etc., friggin' stop watching so much fantasy television. The guy is fast, he ALWAYS has been. Those that criticize him that he got 2nd in his 1st 1/2 IM... I am curious as to how the BEST triathlete would do in a pro cycling race. Think they would get 2nd? Maybe counting from the back.


x2 with this...

seem like some Pros are butt hurt cause a dude who is 40 years old with one ball and 2 or 3 years into retirement just BEAT them...



But he gets testosterone supplement for his mising ball doesn't he? So in effect he still has two(and maybe a bit extra).
I personally don't think people should be racing pro with TUE's, but hey that is a big discussion in itself.

Source please. I've been around cycling for over 25 years and the FIRST time I heard about Lance supposedly having a TUE for testosterone was on this forum yesterday.

I'm calling bullshit on that one until shown otherwise.

Quote:
Throughout his career only one test showed indications of the presence of doping products. In the 1999 Tour, a urine sample showed small traces of cortico-steroids. Armstrong was cleared, however, when his U.S. Postal team, produced a medical certificate showing that he used a cream to ease the pain of a saddle sore. Even that sample, however, was below the levels that would have triggered a positive result at the time.

http://velonews.competitor.com/...-use-in-99-tour_8740

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [ike] [ In reply to ]
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ike wrote:
Well, here are two good reasons to doubt that he is doping now.

First, no one has offered any real evidence (of which I am aware) that Lance has doped since starting his time-off back in 2005. If there is serious evidence of such recent doping, I certainly would welcome hearing it.

Second, say what you will about the man's character, but he's not stupid. He knows he is under intense scrutiny from many angles. Testing is a lot better these days. If he doped today and got caught (whether from testing, from his drug source ratting him out, etc.) the ramifications would be enormous -- the Feds, USADA, public opinion, sponsors, etc. He might be facing jail time, loss of custody of his kids and much more. For a guy with everything that he has to turn around and risk it all at this late stage is just nuts.

I do think he is an exceptional athlete without a doubt. He appears to be exceptionally methodical in his approach and analyzes every factor contributing to performance. I know of a few other athletes at the elite level that are like that and they have done incredibly well also. You do make some interesting points. That said, there's another way to look at it. If Lance is only about Lance, he needs to keep racing because that is how he defines himself. There are plenty of examples of people in and out of sport that jeopardize a lot for reasons that appear to be very irrational on the surface. We all know of these people. The people that seem to have it all and then waste it away.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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AJHull wrote:
ike wrote:
The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.


Really? Honestly? I will not regurgitate how he evaded testing and how tests were thrown out. Further, your opening statement does not stand up scientifically. Look at my post a couple down about the changes to the mitochondria.

Go here: http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

Pick the athlete of your choice, the sport and year and you can see who got tested and how much.

Note, this is ONLY USADA. TS may have gotten tested while in the states and show up here, but it would not fully represent the number of times he was tested. Also, somebody like Armstrong would get tested by WADA or the French agency etc and it wouldn't be on USADA's site.

Armstrong's testing numbers from USADA:

2010 9 tests
2009 8 tests
2008 5 tests
2007 0
2006 0
2005 3 tests
2004 5 tests
2003 1 test
2002 1 test
2001 2 test

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
AJHull wrote:
ike wrote:
The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.


Really? Honestly? I will not regurgitate how he evaded testing and how tests were thrown out. Further, your opening statement does not stand up scientifically. Look at my post a couple down about the changes to the mitochondria.


Go here: http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

Pick the athlete of your choice, the sport and year and you can see who got tested and how much.

Note, this is ONLY USADA. TS may have gotten tested while in the states and show up here, but it would not fully represent the number of times he was tested. Also, somebody like Armstrong would get tested by WADA or the French agency etc and it wouldn't be on USADA's site.

Armstrong's testing numbers from USADA:

2010 9 tests
2009 8 tests
2008 5 tests
2007 0
2006 0
2005 3 tests
2004 5 tests
2003 1 test
2002 1 test
2001 2 test


Sorry to say, but this looses all meaning when you read the interviews from his past friends that are now labelled as enemies. They reported that the Discovery team was provided advance warning of a test. That is hard to refute based on the fact that some of the team members tested positive after being on his team.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver
Last edited by: AJHull: Feb 14, 12 21:26
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [mattyreed] [ In reply to ]
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Matt- the fact that you even replied to this only makes you look like a pissy pants pro.
Last edited by: Albeaver: Feb 14, 12 21:34
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
Not testosterone, but he used a steroid cream. Thats pretty well established and I suspect that is the "episode" the poster is referencing.

No. At least two people have specifically said that Lance has a TUE for testosterone because he only has one ball. I'm calling BS.

The steroid cream episode was in the 1999 tour. Supposedly for saddle sores with a doctors note to back it up after the fact...

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a little confused...were the interviews from the past friends (now enemies) stating that they were given advanced warnings of the tests, or was it that even if a test was failed, the powers of cycling's governing body would "take care of it" for them anyway?
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [MikenUltra] [ In reply to ]
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MikenUltra wrote:
I'm a little confused...were the interviews from the past friends (now enemies) stating that they were given advanced warnings of the tests, or was it that even if a test was failed, the powers of cycling's governing body would "take care of it" for them anyway?

It is only your first comment I was referring to. Although an example of your second comment could be the test result from the 99 TDF. Wiped clean.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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So what you are saying is all triathletes are clean and pro triathletes could ride as fast as Lance or other professional cyclists if they could take supplements / drugs to allow them to train harder or perform at a higher level? If I am understanding your comment correctly, are you delusional? If I misinterpreted your comment, I apologize. Triathletes have a major inferiority complex. It must be that stupid Ironman slogan. There are events out there that are way, way harder such as Tour De Ski and grand tours.The problem is you combined sports, which was an interesting or dumb idea to begin with, so you need to compare yourself with cyclists, swimmers or runners and here is a news flash - you cannot. You cannot be world class at something unless you spend all your life focusing on one sport. You already know this. You can be world class doing those three sports taken together, but you can only compare yourself to the history of those three sports combined.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
AJHull wrote:
ike wrote:
The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.


Really? Honestly? I will not regurgitate how he evaded testing and how tests were thrown out. Further, your opening statement does not stand up scientifically. Look at my post a couple down about the changes to the mitochondria.


Go here: http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

Pick the athlete of your choice, the sport and year and you can see who got tested and how much.

Note, this is ONLY USADA. TS may have gotten tested while in the states and show up here, but it would not fully represent the number of times he was tested. Also, somebody like Armstrong would get tested by WADA or the French agency etc and it wouldn't be on USADA's site.

Armstrong's testing numbers from USADA:

2010 9 tests
2009 8 tests
2008 5 tests
2007 0
2006 0
2005 3 tests
2004 5 tests
2003 1 test
2002 1 test
2001 2 test

I total 34 tests for Lance. I searched Marion Jones on that page. She was tested 48 times and the tests were clean. How did that one turn out? What do these athletes have in common. Hint: Ka-ching!!!!!

________________
Adrian in Vancouver
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Two additional thoughts.

First, and I admit this is speculation, but it can't be so easy to adjust to a post-EPO life without getting repeatedly injured from overtraining. Aging itself creates some real hurdles for people to recalibrate their training regimens. Now we're hypothesizing about someone who compounds that recalibration problem by also going off of EPO. [I am not suggesting that an ex-doper deserves sympathy for having to face this challenge. Rather, I am saying that it's an oversimplification to assert that they have this massive residual benefit. If they fail to correctly calculate the amount of training they can do without their recovery juice, they're in trouble.]

Second, let's place the issue in the specific context of Lance entering a triathlon with the following assumptions: (1) he doped a fair amount during his TdF winning years, but never so much as to test positive under the tests of the day, (2) he entirely stopped doping after the 2005 TdF, (3) he did very little swimming or running during his doping years, and (4) he took a significant amount of downtime from professional-level training between Fall 2005 and the start of 2009. Those are just assumptions, but they probably roughly track what a mid-range Lance attacker would offer. Would you really say that, given those assumptions, his prior doping for cycling purposes carries a significant benefit for a triathlon in 2012? That's a passage of seven years with some serious couch time in the interim, along with the addition of two sports that were not part of his doper training regimen (in my hypothetical).
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
trackie clm wrote:
Quote:
the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent


Can you point us to this so called evidence? Gracias.


http://www.pnas.org/...07/34/15111.abstract

Is that it? I was expecting a good bit more for very compelling evidence. We are talking endurance sports here not weight lifting by the way.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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There are drugs that will have benefit after you stop taking them. The people that know won't spell it out on here for you. Otherwise ST will turn out to be a research platform on how to use PEDs to the fullest effect. Now that would be irresponsible/reckless.

My own view is that for olympic distance triathlon the PEDs will have less benefit. The athlete with the best technique and best coaches will win I think.

PEDs will help a lot more for irondistance, particularly for recovering quickly and coming back from injury. This is just my guess based on my understanding of how all the drugs work, physiology and personal experience. Injuries seem to be the limiting factor from my experience and observation. You push as hard as you can until something breaks down is quite common, so you need to prevent this somehow.

G.

http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.


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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [triathlonshots] [ In reply to ]
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triathlonshots wrote:
There are drugs that will have benefit after you stop taking them. The people that know won't spell it out on here for you. Otherwise ST will turn out to be a research platform on how to use PEDs to the fullest effect. Now that would be irresponsible/reckless.

My own view is that for olympic distance triathlon the PEDs will have less benefit. The athlete with the best technique and best coaches will win I think.

PEDs will help a lot more for irondistance, particularly for recovering quickly and coming back from injury. This is just my guess based on my understanding of how all the drugs work, physiology and personal experience. Injuries seem to be the limiting factor from my experience and observation. You push as hard as you can until something breaks down is quite common, so you need to prevent this somehow.

G.

You've made such a convincing argument that I'm totally convinced. Good to know drugs wouldn't help Olympic distance athletes very much either. I was really confused about that one and thought they might help them as well. Glad you cleared that all up for me.
\
Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Yknot wrote:
Macho Grande wrote:
...how then could he ride and beat guys(i.e Basso, Ulrich, and more) who have all admitted using PEDS that boost performance by some 10% ? (that is 40-50 watts at their TT speed = athletes on a different planet!) ...


Rocky IV- Ivan Drago used drugs, Rocky didn't. Rocky won. Is there anyone accusing him of doping?
Didn't think so.


If it was possible for there to be a worse example, I'm not sure I can think of it... Wink

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/...charge/#.Tzs9Q5iaQw8 Guess lugging logs in the Siberian wilderness wasn't enough for Sly...

Classic pull, Rappstar.

People here should take a few minutes hiatus from Slowtwitch and go read "From Lance to Landis". It's a great read and will only remove you from your ST fix for a few hours. It's a few years dated and is before Landis and Hamilton came clean, but you'll really get some indicators on all the smoke that exists all the way back to his days racing as a junior pre-cancer.
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