Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [ike] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 15:52

Post #176 of 379 (6633 views)

ike wrote:

The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.

Really? Honestly? I will not regurgitate how he evaded testing and how tests were thrown out. Further, your opening statement does not stand up scientifically. Look at my post a couple down about the changes to the mitochondria.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 16:08

Post #177 of 379 (6594 views)

AJHull wrote:

ike wrote:

The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.

Really? Honestly? I will not regurgitate how he evaded testing and how tests were thrown out. Further, your opening statement does not stand up scientifically. Look at my post a couple down about the changes to the mitochondria.

Adrian,

Pt's been shown that mitochodrial density begins to decrease nearly immediately with cessation of training so I'm thinking there wouldn't be a great deal of residual effect after a few months clean.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 16:16

Post #178 of 379 (6574 views)

sciguy wrote:

AJHull wrote:

ike wrote:

The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.

Really? Honestly? I will not regurgitate how he evaded testing and how tests were thrown out. Further, your opening statement does not stand up scientifically. Look at my post a couple down about the changes to the mitochondria.

Adrian,

Pt's been shown that mitochodrial density begins to decrease nearly immediately with cessation of training so I'm thinking there wouldn't be a great deal of residual effect after a few months clean.

Hugh

Sounds like you have a background in the field, so I bring this up just out of curiosity and the quest for knowledge....If the changes take years to acquire, how would it be possible for the changes to drop off that fast? Seems counter to logic. These are changes at the cellular level - which, to my understanding would suggest it takes a longer duration to show signs of change.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [saltman] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 16:16

Post #179 of 379 (6570 views)

saltman wrote:

yep, sorry, I am allowed to have that opinion. I had forgotten he is retired however, so bad on me for that. But yes, Rasmus is a pissy pants pro. And IIRC Matty Reed had some pathetic remark about how LA gets to travel in private luxury.

Funny you should mention Matty Reed. I saw him at a Q&A session in Tempe before Ironman AZ in 2010. This was when the rumor of Lance coming back to triathlon was circulating. Someone asked Matty Reed if he thought he (Lance) could compete and Matty Reed quickly responded "No" with his reasoning being that he wouldn't be able to compete on the swim and the run and that he was coming into triathlon as an older athlete. As it stands now, Matty got schooled by that old guy that can't swim and run. Matty might have beat everyone out of the water in Panama--but as he put it in Tempe-- you have to be able to do all 3 sports well. I happen to agree with saltman... some of these guys are just "pissy pants pros".

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 16:22

Post #180 of 379 (6558 views)

AJHull wrote:

Hugh - do you think Arnold still takes steroids? I highly doubt it and he is still much bigger than the average man. I cannot believe this is a debate.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Zone E] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 16:30

Post #181 of 379 (6533 views)

To:.... I happen to agree with saltman... some of these guys are just "pissy pants pros
Nice second post........Calling names, but anonymous......and you sure have contributed here over the years......................So can you train as hard as those "pros"

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]

BrianRunsPhilly

Feb 14, 12 16:39

Post #182 of 379 (6512 views)

AJHull wrote:

sciguy wrote:

AJHull wrote:

Hugh - do you think Arnold still takes steroids? I highly doubt it and he is still much bigger than the average man. I cannot believe this is a debate.

A J, for endurance sports we're mainly talking about hematocrit levels as the significant performance booster not muscle mass. These fall off rather quickly after cessation of use or transfusion. I'd bet that Arnold is sttill pumping a good bit of iron unlike the majority of same agers. If you've seen him with out his shirt lately he really isn't all that impressive.

Hugh

I agree on your point about the hemocrit, however, there is a lot to be said for systemic training at a high level over years on it's effect on the mitochondria - the cell's power producers. Taking PED's allows an athlete to maintain that high level of training mainly due to the rapid recovery from hard sessions. I am not proclaiming to be an expert in the field but this is based on the knowledge I gained in Eric Bannister's sport science and physiology courses at Simon Fraser University. He is world renowned for his contributions to sports science (TRIMPS is his high brain child).

I think there are two things being mixed here. First, the literature is very clear that both the number of mitochondria and their activity is increased as a result of endurance training. This has been known since 1967 and is now fairly well understood down to the molecular level. There is no literature to suggest whether or not this continues after training. Second, I did a quick scan but couldn't find anything that linked PED's and mitochondrial production/activity. There are definitely drugs and diseases which do affect mitochondria, though. But there is literature which shows that ultraendurance exercise induces reactive oxygen, which can damage muscle and mitochondria. Theoretically it suggests that antioxidants might have a positive effect during heavy training. Except antioxidants also affect insulin sensitivity negatively, so.... it's complex.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 16:46

Post #183 of 379 (6492 views)

I think the beneficial physiogical effects of PEDs stay longer after someone stops taking them than you are implying, well certain PEDs anyway.
The financial effects are very helpful though as using PEDs early in ones career can make the difference of getting into the pro team(for example) or not. The person who gets into the team taking PEDs could easilly be displacing someone who wasn't using them. It happens a lot in the strength/impact sports like gridiron or rugby, where you need to be bigger at a youger age than those around you.

The way around this is for sponsors(and event organisers) to drop the PED takers for good when the a proven without doubt to having used them.

G.

http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [triathlonshots] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 16:59

Post #184 of 379 (6448 views)

triathlonshots wrote:

I think the beneficial physiogical effects of PEDs stay longer after someone stops taking them than you are implying, well certain PEDs anyway.

Which ones would those be? I would agree that HGH might well have some permanent effect but none that would help performance.

The financial effects are very helpful though as using PEDs early in ones career can make the difference of getting into the pro team(for example) or not. The person who gets into the team taking PEDs could easilly be displacing someone who wasn't using them. It happens a lot in the strength/impact sports like gridiron or rugby, where you need to be bigger at a youger age than those around you.

Agreed but we're talking about cyclists and triathletes here.

The way around this is for sponsors(and event organisers) to drop the PED takers for good when the a proven without doubt to having used them.

and we all know how easy that task is.

G.

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [techknowgn] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 17:03

Post #185 of 379 (6439 views)

techknowgn wrote:

rhys wrote:

techknowgn wrote:

eelie wrote:

but too much of the money that people think is going to help folks with cancer is really going to help lance fight legal battles or fly around to his next race. Lance didnt fly commercial to Panama like the other pros did.[/quote]

Why does everyone connect Livestrong paying for Lance private jet? Are we sure? What about Lance paying for it? Like, from his millions earned from Nike, Oakley, Trek, FRS, and various other endorsements deals. The guy is sticking rich from private enterprise.

rule 1 of capitalism: America is about making money so don't judge someone for making a shit load of it.

Its livestrongs jet.

Just to make this apples to apples, I don't think that heads of charities are exactly hurting from a financial perspective. Any one of us would kill for the kind of money they rake in. 2010 salaries. Who wants to bet there are a few jets running around in there? I'm not a Lance fan-boy, but I would be willing to be that he does more to raise money and do good than any of these people do.

I don't claim to know anything about how Livestrong uses their money, but via my dad and brother who are both involved hands-on in coming up with a cure for these diseases, I know they have nothing good to say about any of these charities and how they use their money. Like any other large corporation, it is more about power, and pushing certain drugs and methods that benefit them and their cronies. Remember, there is no money in prevention or a cure, lots of money in extending life/masking symptoms.

Harold Varmus, M.D., Past President/CEO Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center

$2,557,403

John R. Seffrin, CEO American Cancer Society

$2,222,272

Includes $1.5 million in a retention benefit approved in 2001, "to preserve management stability."

Edward J. Benz, Jr., M.D., President/CEO

Dana-Farber Cancer Institute/Jimmy Fund

$1,252,705

Robert J. Mazzuca, Chief Scout Executive Boy Scouts of America - N.O.

$1,211,572

Thomas C. Nelson, Past Ex-Officio/Past COO AARP Foundation & AARP, respectively

$1,176,614

Includes a separation payment of $682,285. The full amount of Thomas Nelson's compensation was paid by AARP, not AARP Foundation. Edwin J. Feulner, Jr., President Heritage Foundation

$1,098,612

Harry Johns, President/CEO Alzheimer's Association - N.O.

$1,065,524

Includes $392,218 retirement and other deferred compensation. Ernest Allen, President/CEO National Center for Missing & Exploited Children

$1,057,604

Includes $432,542 retirement and other deferred compensation, of which $338,953 is a catch-up amount for underfunded retirement benefits in previous years. Gail McGovern, President/CEO American Red Cross

$1,032,022

Includes a one-time reimbursement of $473,570 for relocation costs to work at the national headquarters. Wayne LaPierre, Executive VP/Ex-Officio National Rifle Association & Foundation, respectively

$970,588

Christopher DeMuth, Past President American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research

$939,059

Includes $528,972 in supplemental executive retirement plan payments. Steven E. Sanderson, President/CEO Wildlife Conservation Society

$927,534

Michael L. Lomax, President/CEO United Negro College Fund (UNCF/The College Fund)

$877,582

Includes $686,080 in retirement funds for 5 full years of service.
Joseph V. Haggerty, COO
United Way Worldwide

$864,875

Includes $318,578 SERP imputed income.
Jonathan W. Simons, M.D., President/CEO
Prostate Cancer Foundation

$850,188

James E. Williams, Jr., President/CEO Easter Seals

$833,000

Alan J. Lewis, Past President/CEO Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation International

$813,732

Joseph Krajbich, M.D., Orthopaedic Surgeon Shriners Hospitals for Children

$807,917

Includes $401,435 retirement and other deferred compensation. William E. Evans, Director/CEO St. Jude Children's Research Hospital/ALSAC

$795,538

Robert J. Beall, President/CEO Cystic Fibrosis Foundation

$760,446

Rabbi Marvin Hier, President/CEO Simon Wiesenthal Center

$759,026

Howard Rieger, President/CEO Jewish Federations of North America

$707,454

Shulamith Bahat, Past Associate Executive Director American Jewish Committee

$706,563

Includes $530,798 deferred compensation and retirement payments in respect to 50 weeks salary and accrued vacation.
Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, President
International Fellowship of Christians & Jews

$702,417

Abraham H. Foxman, National Director Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith

$689,398

As for Lance admitting that he did drugs, he has absolutely zero incentive to do so, and nothing would come of it if he did. The only people who have come clean are people who have been proven guilty, and have nothing to lose by admitting it. This is not a noble act, it is covering your ass.

I fully believe that most of the peleton post LeMond doped, hopefully this has come to an end and we are seeing clean(er) racing.

Hoping and wishing that Lance comes clean, and thinking that this would change anything or in any way benefit triathlon or cycling is a pipe dream.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Kenney] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 17:31

Post #186 of 379 (6394 views)

Kenney wrote:

To:.... I happen to agree with saltman... some of these guys are just "pissy pants pros
Nice second post........Calling names, but anonymous......and you sure have contributed here over the years......................So can you train as hard as those "pros"

I'm actually new to the sport of triathlon and new to this posting forum. I appreciate the warm welcome. Yes I train as hard as I can given my budget, job and family to work around. That being said, I tend to have more respect for pros that act like pros and people in general who do what they say they are going to do instead of complaining about others.
By the way, I run, bike and swim because I can and at my age that is saying something. I actually enjoy it. I'm older ( way older than Lance Armstrong). For that reason alone I have a bit more respect for the older athlete that still has the ability to perform at the pro level. It also gives hope that we can still compete at an older age. So forgive me if I happened to agree that some of these younger pro triathletes seem a little ungrateful and defensive.

Pissy pants is what my mother called me when I was a child and complaining too much. I thought the description was accurate. Apparently, it sounds a bit harsher than its meant too and I apologize if it offends you.

Last edited by: Zone E: Feb 14, 12 17:31

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 17:40

Post #187 of 379 (6369 views)

Is the TBear just pissed that Lance was faster in his first 70.3 than he ever was in his career?

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Zone E] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 17:44

Post #188 of 379 (6355 views)

Just find it funny that you join to post negatively about pro's you most likely do not know...Now if you know them and they are that way, my apologies.
I am not young either, not new to tri and certainly not to cycling......which comes to the point, there is plenty of legitimate concerns for some pro's, like a retired TS to have the right to voice those concerns without being called names.................As I posted before "omerta" has gotten cycling far has it not. ..The amount of threads the past few days shows Lance has a strong following. Good for him. Some are not fans for legit reasons............I guess its best we all shut up, or be called names uh?
Regardless if you agree, Lance rightly or wrongly (depending on your point of view) has caused a lot of animosity, I believe a lot of these pro's who know more, but do not want to be politcally incorrect, have a right to be skeptical to Lance's long term benefit to tri

Last edited by: Kenney: Feb 14, 12 18:09

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]

nedbraden

Feb 14, 12 17:52

Post #189 of 379 (6340 views)

AJHull wrote:

ike wrote:

The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.

Really? Honestly? I will not regurgitate how he evaded testing and how tests were thrown out. Further, your opening statement does not stand up scientifically. Look at my post a couple down about the changes to the mitochondria.

I'll ignore the usual anti-LA nonsense that gets posted by a core group on every cycling forum. (Hope you are not one of that group as they have some serious mental issues)

You ignore the actual comment about athlete's performances after doping and simply talk about alleged evasion and thrown out tests and then talk about mitochondria. Perhaps you could actually address his comments.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 17:55

Post #190 of 379 (6338 views)

Does TS hope it will snowball into a unanimous witchhunt until LA is forced out of the sport with his tail between his legs ?

TS should not mave made that tweet. It was very unsportsman-like. He was trying to take a problem and make it worse = a dilemma.

But that's what we already have here I suppose: if Lance kicks ass people conjure up images of impropriety. If he blows chunks and finishes much lower, he totally sucks and he's lost his form.

Like I said = Dilemma

He must be hardwired by now to elevate himself above the punk-ass-bitch haters bullshit and let his results do the talking.

**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Last edited by: Mojozenmaster: Feb 14, 12 18:01

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [FisH2O] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 18:04

Post #191 of 379 (6315 views)

FisH2O wrote:

As for Lance admitting that he did drugs, he has absolutely zero incentive to do so, and nothing would come of it if he did. The only people who have come clean are people who have been proven guilty, and have nothing to lose by admitting it. This is not a noble act, it is covering your ass.

I fully believe that most of the peleton post LeMond doped, hopefully this has come to an end and we are seeing clean(er) racing.

Hoping and wishing that Lance comes clean, and thinking that this would change anything or in any way benefit triathlon or cycling is a pipe dream.

You make a lot of great points but the above in bold is inaccurate: Frankie Andreau, Jonathan Vaughters are 2 big names who doped and have admitted it (although Vaughters doesnt go shouting it from the rooftops).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ged-doping-practices - a conversation posted to the web that both Vaughters and Andreau admit is theirs that talks about USPS doping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP3vRSohTHc - vaughters admitting on video at a high school cycling fundraiser that he doped

They all doped, Lance included.

Lance doesn't have to admit it for it to benefit triathlon. I had originally hoped that his presence would force WTC to test thoroughly at least at the races he was at, apparently, it has taken the opposite approach, to not test podiums he's on. Which is just utter shit.

This is my last post that focuses on Lances past. I want thorough testing in triathlon of all pro podiums in major races, and random AG testing where it makes sense. Thats my focus, and it's just reinforced with the presence of guys like Lance.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 18:28

Post #192 of 379 (6278 views)

SwBkRn44 wrote:

but is the foundation spending too much promoting Armstrong and too little actually fighting cancer as an outside mag reporter suggested?

So is he stating the foundation doesn't do enough to fight cancer or not? Out with it TS, don't just ask questions that kind of sound like an accusation but that are veiled enough to back away from.

Have you read the Outside magazine article? I think he was pretty diplomatically calling for people to read it and draw their own conclusions.
My conclusion after reading it is that the foundations purpose seems to be at least 51% to promote the cult of Lance Armstrong based on how they are spending the money. They are spending almost no money whatsoever to do cancer research.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 18:38

Post #193 of 379 (6255 views)

Yes, I've read the article.

LAF has never claimed to be about spending money to do cancer research.

Sindballe shoud just state whether or not he thinks the charity is fraudelent, not pose some hypothetical question as a veiled accusation. I lost a lot of respect for the guy based on this post of his.

Portside Athletics Blog

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 18:41

Post #194 of 379 (6246 views)

Your notion of what constitutes scientific evidence is much too narrow. Yes, biology is part of science, but often it's difficult to extrapolate from microscopic evidence to things that actually matter in practice. That's why so much evidence in sports science comes from actual performance. We don't have group A doing one thing and group B do another thing and then just take some biological measurements and assume that translates into scientifically meaningful evidence about whether Group A or B was benefitted. Instead, we do things like have them ride bikes and see what the actual differences in performance are. I can't say for sure how good Basso, Landis, Vino, Hamilton, Millar, Kraft, etc., would have been had they never doped in the first place. But, we can say that their returns to their sports are not all that glorious. It's a fairly simple before/after test of your hypothesis. And, yes, it's science. Really. Honestly.

If your theory were true then we should see many examples of people who dope like crazy and train like crazy, while staying below the testing radar by staying out of major races. Then, with this "massive advantage" over all the saps who have been racing within the system, they burst on the scene and blow everyone away. Where are these people? If it's as simple as you suggest then lots of people would have figured it out and implemented such a system.

Of course, as you say, there are benefits of higher training loads. And, perhaps at some microscopic level, they persist for long periods of time. But, to truly be relevant here, they would have to persist in ways that give competitively meaningful advantages. Yet, we don't see it. We don't see people who successfully pursue the strategy from my prior paragraph nor do we see lots of people who got caught and then returned to their former glory without missing a beat. And, to bring the issue back to Lance, most of the stories relate to events a decade or more ago. In the meantime, he took a substantial layoff. Your supposed evidence just does not establish that he has some major competitive unfair advantage for which an apology is due.

Post deleted by mattyreed [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 18:49

Post #195 of 379 (6227 views)

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 18:59

Post #196 of 379 (6199 views)

trackie clm wrote:

Quote:

the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent

Can you point us to this so called evidence? Gracias.

http://www.pnas.org/...07/34/15111.abstract

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [mattyreed] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 19:04

Post #197 of 379 (6188 views)

SWEET.........Like it..................Looking forward to your continued sucess. Cheers, have fun at the races...Kenney

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 19:04

Post #198 of 379 (6188 views)

tri_yoda wrote:

They are spending almost no money whatsoever to do cancer research.

It never was about that....it's always been about cancer "awareness" - quite a difference.

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [mattyreed] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 19:07

Post #199 of 379 (6179 views)

mattyreed wrote:

"ZONE E"
nice post bud. nice. I never said lance couldnt compete. ever. he is a 7-time tour de france champion. And, as far as 15 months ago, since I dont live with him or train with him, I didnt know what he was doing swimming or running. See I was at the race in panama, so I saw him swim and run. and yes he did well. very well.

So i am a pissy pants pro, eh? nice one. I did get schooled by lance on the weekend, i got schooled by everyone including myself. And yeah, I did not have a race at all. Would like to think that maybe it was quite known that I was not "racing" when I stopped. I was dead. No excuses. that is what i had that day and well it was absolutely nothing. yeap got schooled. didnt need you or anyone else to point that one out.

And thanks for the lesson on triathlon there... so i have to swim, bike and run? sweet. thanks, guess maybe I should start training then. So see you at the races there superstar.

BIG MATTY REED- WHO, AFTER 18 YEARS AS A TRUE PROFESSIONAL IN THIS SPORT CALLED TRIATHLON, DOES NOT LIKE BEING CALLED A PISSY PANTS PRO -OUT.

+1, Nice!
Don't feel bad Matty.....you'd school me in the 1st 2 yards of the swim!

Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [BMANX] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 12 19:11

Post #200 of 379 (6167 views)

BMANX wrote:

What bothers me about all of these tweets, facebook posts and forum posts is that we have no way of really knowing that the triathletes posting are clean either. How do we really know if Rappstar is clean, TS is/was clean or any other pro athlete is clean. They all have been tested I am sure many times but never tested positive. I am sure that the people taking PED's are ahead of the testing. The only person that really knows if they are clean or not is the athlete unless proven guilty by a court or federation.

You don't. However, I don't see how that's actually particularly relevant. I don't think that - generally - any of the comments made are any more or less true if the person making them doped or did not. Ramus's comment about the podium - apparently - not being tested at Panama is either true or it's not. It *is* true what I wrote that Lance was under a federal investigation and that Travis Tygart of USADA has said he is going to continue to investigate. That doesn't become any more or less true because of me.

Now, you are certainly free to disagree with my opinion that such considerations should be relevant to the discussion at hand. But there is far too much emotion in this discussion from all parties (including me, though I'm trying my best to delete it out of my posts), and considering the reputation of the source of information that SHOULD be simply factual in nature is a recipe for disaster...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

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