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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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tridork wrote:
BrianRunsPhilly wrote:
Francois wrote:
No, it doesn't alter your genome. It possibly alters gene expression, through various processes such as DNA methylation. But your genome remains the same.


I thinks it's safe to assume that he didn't undergo some sort of highly experimental gene therapy in secret, based on research that was also developed in secret and never published in the medical/scientific literature. So that leaves mutations in his genome, which would occur randomly (as it does in all organisms). These mutations could be good or bad, and unless occurring in progenitor cells, would be lost when that cell dies. or So Lance happens to be both a professional athlete who also manages, through cancer treatment, to inherit beneficial mutations ONLY. Talk about luck!



Don't forget, he got the Cancer in the first place, and it damn near killed him. Is that the kind of luck you are talking about?

I'm glad I'm not as lucky as Lance in that case!
Uh, that was sarcasm.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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How did Sinbald get the Name Thunder Bear....anyone know?
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [BrianRunsPhilly] [ In reply to ]
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me too :-)

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Armytriguy3] [ In reply to ]
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his name is Torbjorn which literally translated...
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Then again, I'd bet that this forum has generated more impressions in the last three days than any other three days of the year, including in October. And all because of one little piddly race down in Central America.

Pros want to see more attention for the sport, which we all hope eventually equals more prize money and better competition, then they complain when someone comes into the sport and actually brings more attention. Lance attracts attention because is is an amazing athlete, he is charismatic, and people are interested in him. Period.

Someone is going to reply to me and say "I'm not interested in Lance", but you know what? If you're reading this at all, you ARE...
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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camaleon wrote:
Bogusdogs wrote:
I know 'everyone' has their opinions, but if I were a pro, and I am not, I would not say ANYTHING about how Lance will never be able to "_____." It seems like every time someone makes a statement like this, they look like a fool. Ahem, Rasmus? Why don't they talk like 99% of the other triathletes and talk about how under trained they are, the injuries they are working through, that it's not their "A" race, they just signed up a few days ago...ya know, sh*$ triathletes say? Calling out someone like Lance, really only solidifies he will beat you. It is motivation for guys like him.

And for all the people that say that he is using PEDs and he has some alliance with the WTC with testing, etc., friggin' stop watching so much fantasy television. The guy is fast, he ALWAYS has been. Those that criticize him that he got 2nd in his 1st 1/2 IM... I am curious as to how the BEST triathlete would do in a pro cycling race. Think they would get 2nd? Maybe counting from the back.


x2 with this...

seem like some Pros are butt hurt cause a dude who is 40 years old with one ball and 2 or 3 years into retirement just BEAT them...



But he gets testosterone supplement for his mising ball doesn't he? So in effect he still has two(and maybe a bit extra).
I personally don't think people should be racing pro with TUE's, but hey that is a big discussion in itself.

I can see both sides of this LA saga. He is the best cyclist and also potentially close to top of triathlon. I think if it was a level playing field and if he and his cycling competitors/teams didn't take PEDs(which they do and have, EPO etc), then he would still be where he is today. He will go down in history as being the best at cycling in his time with question marks always beside his name. I defend the top triathletes that also put this question mark beside his name. And the top pro triathletes won't say outright what they hear and know to be true because they could get sued for slandering his name.
Is LA the best role model for cancer patients? Not really but he is able to bring in more money for cancer than just about an other individual. Because he brings in the money for cancer then he is definitely good, he is giving back in effect. It is as much a reflection of the USA(and other parts of teh West) society that we like to have heroes and build them up to be 'greater than god'.

I do think that some people who have chosen triathlon as there career could have been top cycling pro's but we will never know for sure. LA is a triathlete by all accounts that took up cycling so he is one for starters.

It is in the headlines around the world everyday about how the cheating cyclists. Because of this I do not admire any cyclists in the slightest, even though I think cycling itself is close to my favorite sport :

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=10783856

and like the Danish people I also come from a country with a smaller population. At least in NZ people who are built up as heroes still have to keep there feet on the ground, as you can never create the sort of hype around yourself like LA has. Well the King, Queen or current prime minister is about as untouchable as it gets, but not so much celebrities.

G.

http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.


Last edited by: triathlonshots: Feb 14, 12 12:45
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [dongustav] [ In reply to ]
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Then again, I'd bet that this forum has generated more impressions in the last three days than any other three days of the year, including in October. \\\[/url]

That would be a very good bet..I think it was my armchair race report that put it over too..(-;
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [techknowgn] [ In reply to ]
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techknowgn wrote:
eelie wrote:
Because if that's not your argument, then what is?


http://www.livestrong.org/...Where-the-Money-Goes


They mislead the public both intentionally by not actively reporting how much of the millions of legal get spent on defending Lance for things that Livestrongs money shouldnt be spent on, and passively by not doing stronger work educating folks that they arent funding cancer research. Even having that publicly displayed in Outside is only going to do so much.

Again, the why they give money argument stands. Without Lance people would give the money, and whether Livestrong is there without Lance, or Livestrong is just not there, there are other cancer charities that do as much or more than Livestrong without nearly the waste, without the deceit, and provide more actual value to both the public at large and those who are ill or will become ill.


I realize that not everyone is in finance or understands financial statements, but your assertion isn't really true. With a very simple google search you can pull up the LAF's form 990 that details almost all of the revenue and expenses for a given year. Let's use 2010 as an example:


You've been pretty adamant that Lance uses Livestrong's G4 for all of his travels. Now, if you had done any fact checking you would see a detailed accounting of Livestrong's capital assets. 2010 for example shows on Schedule D, Part IV an accounting of the fixed assets (btw - Planes go here if they exist). Land - $1.96M; Buildings - $8.55M, Equipment - $1.2M. No planes...sorry. Btw - you will find the information you want on Lance's Jet here: http://flightaware.com/...es/registration/N7LA


Now, on to the legal fees. You will find a detailed accounting of the 2010 legal fees in Schedule O of the 990 form.
Program and General: $264k
Domestic Trademark Infringement: $208k
International Trademark Infringment: $159k


Additionally, you will find the detailed accounting of the program expenditures, travel expenses, executive compensation, Board of Directors (hint - you'll find Lance here) compensation, etc.


Again, I know that finance isn't everyone's specialty...but it does happen to be mine. From a quick scan of Livestrong's filings...I'm just not seeing where they are paying for Lance to fly all over the place on the dime of the people giving money to the organization. Btw - these forms, annual reports, financial statements are audited by an independent accounting firm. At the beginning of a company's financial statements (annual report), you will find a statement from the firm stating whether or not the financial statements are accurate or not. I think that you will find that the outside firm also doesn't think that Livestrong is hiding a G4 anywhere and isn't cooking their books with hidden travel expenses and legal fees.


However, if you have some other financials that indicate otherwise...please point us in the right direction. Surely, your not just making up claims and statements on something you have no proof of, right?
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Twotter] [ In reply to ]
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Twotter wrote:
techknowgn wrote:
eelie wrote:
Because if that's not your argument, then what is?


http://www.livestrong.org/...Where-the-Money-Goes


They mislead the public both intentionally by not actively reporting how much of the millions of legal get spent on defending Lance for things that Livestrongs money shouldnt be spent on, and passively by not doing stronger work educating folks that they arent funding cancer research. Even having that publicly displayed in Outside is only going to do so much.

Again, the why they give money argument stands. Without Lance people would give the money, and whether Livestrong is there without Lance, or Livestrong is just not there, there are other cancer charities that do as much or more than Livestrong without nearly the waste, without the deceit, and provide more actual value to both the public at large and those who are ill or will become ill.


I realize that not everyone is in finance or understands financial statements, but your assertion isn't really true. With a very simple google search you can pull up the LAF's form 990 that details almost all of the revenue and expenses for a given year. Let's use 2010 as an example:


You've been pretty adamant that Lance uses Livestrong's G4 for all of his travels. Now, if you had done any fact checking you would see a detailed accounting of Livestrong's capital assets. 2010 for example shows on Schedule D, Part IV an accounting of the fixed assets (btw - Planes go here if they exist). Land - $1.96M; Buildings - $8.55M, Equipment - $1.2M. No planes...sorry. Btw - you will find the information you want on Lance's Jet here: http://flightaware.com/...es/registration/N7LA


Now, on to the legal fees. You will find a detailed accounting of the 2010 legal fees in Schedule O of the 990 form.
Program and General: $264k
Domestic Trademark Infringement: $208k
International Trademark Infringment: $159k


Additionally, you will find the detailed accounting of the program expenditures, travel expenses, executive compensation, Board of Directors (hint - you'll find Lance here) compensation, etc.


Again, I know that finance isn't everyone's specialty...but it does happen to be mine. From a quick scan of Livestrong's filings...I'm just not seeing where they are paying for Lance to fly all over the place on the dime of the people giving money to the organization. Btw - these forms, annual reports, financial statements are audited by an independent accounting firm. At the beginning of a company's financial statements (annual report), you will find a statement from the firm stating whether or not the financial statements are accurate or not. I think that you will find that the outside firm also doesn't think that Livestrong is hiding a G4 anywhere and isn't cooking their books with hidden travel expenses and legal fees.


However, if you have some other financials that indicate otherwise...please point us in the right direction. Surely, your not just making up claims and statements on something you have no proof of, right?

Thanks for breaking this down. I was one of those that was under the impression that Livestrong was paying for all kinds of things. But only because of what I heard from other folks. Thankfully, I didn't perpetuate the myth. So thanks for shedding some light on this part.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Twotter] [ In reply to ]
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thanks but you must be new here... you should never kill a thread with proper facts - the experts hate that .... plus I was kinda liking the blood money pimped out G4 with hot tub and strippers version better ... its time for a new Souza or Cippolini style rock star athlete
Last edited by: lacticturkey: Feb 14, 12 13:29
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [techknowgn] [ In reply to ]
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Twotter wrote:
techknowgn wrote:
eelie wrote:
Because if that's not your argument, then what is?


http://www.livestrong.org/...Where-the-Money-Goes


They mislead the public both intentionally by not actively reporting how much of the millions of legal get spent on defending Lance for things that Livestrongs money shouldnt be spent on, and passively by not doing stronger work educating folks that they arent funding cancer research. Even having that publicly displayed in Outside is only going to do so much.

Again, the why they give money argument stands. Without Lance people would give the money, and whether Livestrong is there without Lance, or Livestrong is just not there, there are other cancer charities that do as much or more than Livestrong without nearly the waste, without the deceit, and provide more actual value to both the public at large and those who are ill or will become ill.


I realize that not everyone is in finance or understands financial statements, but your assertion isn't really true. With a very simple google search you can pull up the LAF's form 990 that details almost all of the revenue and expenses for a given year. Let's use 2010 as an example:


You've been pretty adamant that Lance uses Livestrong's G4 for all of his travels. Now, if you had done any fact checking you would see a detailed accounting of Livestrong's capital assets. 2010 for example shows on Schedule D, Part IV an accounting of the fixed assets (btw - Planes go here if they exist). Land - $1.96M; Buildings - $8.55M, Equipment - $1.2M. No planes...sorry. Btw - you will find the information you want on Lance's Jet here: http://flightaware.com/...es/registration/N7LA


Now, on to the legal fees. You will find a detailed accounting of the 2010 legal fees in Schedule O of the 990 form.
Program and General: $264k
Domestic Trademark Infringement: $208k
International Trademark Infringment: $159k


Additionally, you will find the detailed accounting of the program expenditures, travel expenses, executive compensation, Board of Directors (hint - you'll find Lance here) compensation, etc.


Again, I know that finance isn't everyone's specialty...but it does happen to be mine. From a quick scan of Livestrong's filings...I'm just not seeing where they are paying for Lance to fly all over the place on the dime of the people giving money to the organization. Btw - these forms, annual reports, financial statements are audited by an independent accounting firm. At the beginning of a company's financial statements (annual report), you will find a statement from the firm stating whether or not the financial statements are accurate or not. I think that you will find that the outside firm also doesn't think that Livestrong is hiding a G4 anywhere and isn't cooking their books with hidden travel expenses and legal fees.


However, if you have some other financials that indicate otherwise...please point us in the right direction. Surely, your not just making up claims and statements on something you have no proof of, right?

Oh no. More facts getting in the way of your opinion.

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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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Hello tridork and All,

"I do a lot of my thinking on long bike rides or long runs. I pose myself a question at the beginning of the ride, and debate with myself as I ride. Big ideas, like my view on abortion, take several rides to develop my view. Once I develop my opinion on something, it's pretty set. Ocassionally someone will provide some data or information that I hadn't considered and that may tweak or swing my opinion another way, but that doesn't happen very often."

Actually you most likely have already formed your belief before the ride and only find reasons to reinforce that belief during the ride or run because that is how 'we are wired' through evoulution.

You might see evidence of the accuracy of this 'belief first' and 'only tell me what I want to hear' cognitive brain function here on this ST forum.

http://www.michaelshermer.com/the-believing-brain/

We form our beliefs for a variety of subjective, personal, emotional, and psychological reasons in the context of environments created by family, friends, colleagues, culture, and society at large; after forming our beliefs we then defend, justify, and rationalize them with a host of intellectual reasons, cogent arguments, and rational explanations. Beliefs come first, explanations for beliefs follow.

Dr. Shermer also provides the neuroscience behind our beliefs. The brain is a belief engine. From sensory data flowing in through the senses the brain naturally begins to look for and find patterns, and then infuses those patterns with meaning. The first process Dr. Shermer calls patternicity: the tendency to find meaningful patterns in both meaningful and meaningless data.

The second process he calls agenticity: the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention, and agency.

We can’t help believing. Our brains evolved to connect the dots of our world into meaningful patterns that explain why things happen. These meaningful patterns become beliefs. Once beliefs are formed the brain begins to look for and find confirmatory evidence in support of those beliefs, which adds an emotional boost of further confidence in the beliefs and thereby accelerates the process of reinforcing them, and round and round the process goes in a positive feedback loop of belief confirmation. Dr. Shermer outlines the numerous cognitive tools our brains engage to reinforce our beliefs as truths and to insure that we are always right.

http://www.amazon.com/...nforce/dp/0805091254

Bestselling author Michael Shermer's comprehensive and provocative theory on how beliefs are born, formed, reinforced, challenged, changed, and extinguished.

In this work synthesizing thirty years of research, psychologist, historian of science, and the world's best-known skeptic Michael Shermer upends the traditional thinking about how humans form beliefs about the world. Simply put, beliefs come first and explanations for beliefs follow. The brain, Shermer argues, is a belief engine.

From sensory data flowing in through the senses, the brain naturally begins to look for and find patterns, and then infuses those patterns with meaning.

Our brains connect the dots of our world into meaningful patterns that explain why things happen, and these patterns become beliefs.

Once beliefs are formed the brain begins to look for and find confirmatory evidence in support of those beliefs, which accelerates the process of reinforcing them, and round and round the process goes in a positive-feedback loop of belief confirmation. Shermer outlines the numerous cognitive tools our brains engage to reinforce our beliefs as truths.

Interlaced with his theory of belief, Shermer provides countless real-world examples of how this process operates, from politics, economics, and religion to conspiracy theories, the supernatural, and the paranormal.

Ultimately, he demonstrates why science is the best tool ever devised to determine whether or not a belief matches reality.

=====================================

From Wiki:

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] The Oxford English Dictionary says that scientific method is: "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."[3]
The chief thing which separates a scientific method of inquiry from other methods of acquiring knowledge is that scientists seek to let reality speak for itself, and contradict their theories about it when those theories are incorrect[4]

==========================================

As you say and perhaps with the Scientific Method in mind we should consider our opinions as subject to change if new information is discovered.

=========================================================

And in keeping with the triathlon aspect of the forum as a tridork you are probably familiar with Shermer's Neck Syndrome named for the author of the work above.

====================================================

http://ultracycling.com/...ining/neck_pain.html

As Thomas and Gooch prepared for their 2004 RAAM, they invited Sue Morris, LMT, to join their crew. Morris immediately researched Shermer's Neck and found no existing knowledge. She consulted Walter Libby, a 30-year licensed massage therapist and instructor in kinesiology at the Oregon School of Massage. Libby interviewed Thomas and discovered he had been involved in a severe automobile accident years earlier that included a whiplash injury.

A physical examination revealed soreness and numerous trigger points in the front muscles of his neck (sternocleidomastoid or SCM and scalenes).

Libby established a treatment plan with Morris providing two to three massages per week working specifically on the trigger points in the effected muscles. Myofacial trigger points are commonly referred to as knots in the skeletal muscle. In the case of Shermer's Neck they appear in long strings along the SCM and scalenes. Trigger points are sore even to a light touch; they cause referred pain, restriction of movement and loss of function.


By the fifth month of treatment the trigger points were gone. Morris continued treatment until the start of the race.
During the race she performed light trigger point work. She also used ice on the SCM and scalene muscles and heat on the trapezius muscles during each of Thomas' breaks off the bike.

Although he began to develop small trigger points around mile 300, none of them grew large enough to cause a problem and the condition did not impede his performance or comfort level during the remainder of the 3,000-mile race.
The SCM attaches to the skull behind the ear and plays a role in supporting the head. There are three separate scalene muscles that run beneath and behind the SCM and perform a similar function. In an extreme cycling position the scalene muscles may be in strong contraction while extending the neck.
These muscles are not accustomed to prolonged, sustained work when the head is in an aero position during a long race. If there has been a pre-existing injury these muscles may develop trigger points, fatigue and can ultimately fail. By eliminating trigger points in the sternocleidomastoid and scalene muscles, strength returns to these muscles and much of the pain and dysfunction of Shermer's Neck is reduced.


What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal



+1 mph Faster

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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As Twotter said, Im no finance major, but I know that it's pretty easy to label certain travel expenses as marketing if you dont want the travel expenses to appear too large. If paying for the fuel in Lances jet goes in the travel expense, people might wonder why are their travel expenses so high? but if hes going to an event that fuel money can be put down as marketing expense.

Why would I have any reason to think they might be lying? Because Lance lies. There's a ton of proof of it out there. He supposedly races his comeback for free, but charged appearance fees for coming to races to race. Looking altruistic but being all about his own dollars is exactly what Lance does. (FYI there are plenty of credible sources on the race fees during comeback 2.0. Im not taking time to site them, but it was in the Outside article, and it's in the tour down under stories leading up to the race). Hell he charges appearance fees to talk at CANCER FUNDRAISERS. Tell me thats not him saying one thing and doing another (300k in cash and services to show up at Pelotonia).

Also, they have never clarified why merge with Lance Armstrong Merchandise and Events. Those are for profit organizations that merged with a non-profit. how the hell does anyone not think thats a problem. Do they do good things? sure, but so do a lot of other cancer organizations that arent feeding Lance financially. They raised 7 million in doing the livestrong challenges, but it cost them 1/3rd of that to put it on. Seriously, 2.6 million to run livestrong bike rides? You have got to be fucking kidding me. Yeah, no costs in marketing there.

Then there's the whole demand media fiasco which theres no way Lance wouldnt have kept that money if he hadnt been pressured by the public.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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You make some very good points!

I am human (although my wife claims quite often that I'm only part human.....the asshole part!) and likely fall into many of the belief traps you note. However, I do try as much as possible, to inject reason and pseudo scientific methods into developing and challenging my beliefs and opinions by doing the actual debates I have with myself on my rides. While not perfect, I believe it's a better system to go through the process I go through, than to not go through that process, as most people do. I perfer to charge through life, as informed as I can be, rather than drifting from knee jerk reaction to knee jerk reaction. I like to think of myself as the antidote to talk back radio! :-)

Using my abortion example stated previously, I started my self debate rides being fairly firmly in the pro-choice camp, believing it was a womans choice, with a mans involvement being 49% where a man was actively involved, blah blah blah. During the several rides it took to fully debate the issue in my alleged mind, I found I actually talked myself into believing abortion was not a great idea and I'm now fundamentally opposed to it except in extreme and rare cases, such as rape ending in pregnancy. Even then, the woman involved may choose to not have an abortion, but I accept that in this type of case, it's reasonable to allow her to choose an abortion.
There are so many options for stopping a pregnancy before it ever happens, that using abortion as a contraceptive, is no longer acceptable in my view. Prior to my debate rides, I'd simply had the opinion, that it was the womans body, so her decision. In this case, by having my internal debate, I nearly completely reversed my opinion and position on abortion. Take that as you will. One day I can bore you with my findings about humour/comedy that I developed on a series of long rides. I have yet to develop the perfect triathlon joke, so maybe I haven't quite got humour figured out, or then again, maybe triathlon simply ain't funny?!

Interesting segwey (sp?) into the neck issue. I have chronic neck "issues". I've broken C5, T6 (crushed badly and now quite asymetrical) as well as L5 & L6. I've also managed to knock myself out 12 times now. Some were short breaks of just a few seconds, but a couple have been about 30-40 seconds according to witnesses. (Skiing and bike accidents mostly) I am just getting back to training now after having nearly 7 months of treatment for problems with T6. Like a union worker, C5 has gone on strike as well! After electric accupuncture, osteopathy, pain killers and anti inflamatories, it's now about 90% recovered. I will read more about what you have written to see if any other techniques might help me get back to 100% of what I was 7 months ago. 100% recovery to normal human levels is beyond even my desperate hope however! :-)

.Have a great day and thanks for the input and information.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [techknowgn] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty difficult to talk logically with someone who's belief is already set such as yours. Lance lies is a such a weak argument I can't belive you through that out there though. Finance and accounting are obviously something you know nothing about. I happen to work in public accounting where I audit entities and am involved with issuing opinions on the financials of that entity. Lance could "lie" publicly all he wanted. That wouldn't make a difference when an independent accounting firm is auditing the books of Livestrong. If you actually think Lance is spending time to "cook the books" of Livestrong so he can hide expenses from the auditors you are worse off than I thought. Carry on with your consipracy theories though.

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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:
Carry on with your consipracy theories though.

Lance doesnt have to be involved for staffers to know what stuff not to include. You dont think they know Lance is their lifeblood and without him theyre just another charity?

That said I dont believe in many conspiracy theories. Other than JFK, which it's hard to believe was a 1 man job with a set of amazing coincidences, I dont believe the aliens are being hiden from us by washington, i dont believe in a lot of other stuff, but i do believe a person with the right amount of money, influence, and connections can mostly do what they want and their supporters will back them up. You think lance is afraid to falsify tax records? This is a guy who by multiple accounts commited tens to hundreds of felonies during his doping/cycling career. Not the actual doping itself but the fraudulent activity that went with it.

I dont even think hes doping now nor did he likely during the 2010 tour. Im on the fence about 09, but I hope he was clean then.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [techknowgn] [ In reply to ]
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techknowgn wrote:
TravisT wrote:
Carry on with your consipracy theories though.


Lance doesnt have to be involved for staffers to know what stuff not to include. You dont think they know Lance is their lifeblood and without him theyre just another charity?

That said I dont believe in many conspiracy theories. Other than JFK, which it's hard to believe was a 1 man job with a set of amazing coincidences, I dont believe the aliens are being hiden from us by washington, i dont believe in a lot of other stuff, but i do believe a person with the right amount of money, influence, and connections can mostly do what they want and their supporters will back them up. You think lance is afraid to falsify tax records? This is a guy who by multiple accounts commited tens to hundreds of felonies during his doping/cycling career. Not the actual doping itself but the fraudulent activity that went with it.

I dont even think hes doping now nor did he likely during the 2010 tour. Im on the fence about 09, but I hope he was clean then.

Ok, so now you've reached the point where you're claiming Livestrong is systematically falsifying the books. You're obviously willing to pretty much say anything. Not unlike what you claim Lance to be doing.

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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent

Can you point us to this so called evidence? Gracias.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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trackie clm wrote:
Quote:
the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent


Can you point us to this so called evidence? Gracias.


I'd love to hear this very compelling evidence too. You honesty think using EPO or testosterone several years ago still benefit someone today?

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Feb 14, 12 15:45
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
- the second is the fact that there is VERY compelling scientific evidence that the training benefits of doping are essentially permanent. Most of the drugs that athletes takes, especially endurance athletes, are designed to enhance recovery. It's not that the drugs make you faster (for endurance sports; anabolics certainly help explosive sports); it's that they allow you to train more. And the benefit of that training load does not disappear once you stop taking drugs. Essentially, if a cyclist was able to ride 35,000km a year for 10 years instead of 25,000km because of drugs, the benefit of that does not go away once they stop taking drugs. In other words, there is evidence that once you have doped, you can never really be truly "clean." *IF* (again, *IF*) Lance was doping for any of the time he was a cyclist, that represents a massive advantage over other athletes. So the fact that he may (and I believe he is) clean now doesn't mean that it is a level playing field. IF (IF, IF, IF!) he doped as a cyclist, that does represent an unfair advantage and one that I think people are justified in being concerned about.

Thank you, thank you and thank you. I have been saying that for years and so many people seem to overlook this. I have been saying that after a guilty athlete has served his two year ban, they are still at an advantage. How could they not? They were able to push their body to a new physical level for the reasons you outlined. Let's look at the meaningless sport of natural bodybuilding competitions. I cannot remember the length of time someone needs to be clean before they can enter those competitions, but it is obvious that all the person needs to do is keep training after they stop using drugs and they will retain a lot of their size. In the case of a suspect cyclist going to triathlon, if they have already eaten the forbidden fruit, why would they stop now? Newly formed moral beliefs? I doubt it. That is a slight tangent.

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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Hugh - do you think Arnold still takes steroids? I highly doubt it and he is still much bigger than the average man. I cannot believe this is a debate.

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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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AJHull wrote:
Hugh - do you think Arnold still takes steroids? I highly doubt it and he is still much bigger than the average man. I cannot believe this is a debate.


A J, for endurance sports we're mainly talking about hematocrit levels as the significant performance booster not muscle mass. These fall off rather quickly after cessation of use or transfusion. I'd bet that Arnold is sttill pumping a good bit of iron unlike the majority of same agers. If you've seen him with out his shirt lately he really isn't all that impressive.

Hugh



Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Feb 14, 12 15:44
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:
techknowgn wrote:
TravisT wrote:
Carry on with your consipracy theories though.


Lance doesnt have to be involved for staffers to know what stuff not to include. You dont think they know Lance is their lifeblood and without him theyre just another charity?

That said I dont believe in many conspiracy theories. Other than JFK, which it's hard to believe was a 1 man job with a set of amazing coincidences, I dont believe the aliens are being hiden from us by washington, i dont believe in a lot of other stuff, but i do believe a person with the right amount of money, influence, and connections can mostly do what they want and their supporters will back them up. You think lance is afraid to falsify tax records? This is a guy who by multiple accounts commited tens to hundreds of felonies during his doping/cycling career. Not the actual doping itself but the fraudulent activity that went with it.

I dont even think hes doping now nor did he likely during the 2010 tour. Im on the fence about 09, but I hope he was clean then.


Ok, so now you've reached the point where you're claiming Livestrong is systematically falsifying the books. You're obviously willing to pretty much say anything. Not unlike what you claim Lance to be doing.

I agree...I think that the tin foil hats are out in full force with that statement. Even if we were to assume that Livestrong was able to convince all of their accountants to cook the books...his theory still ignores the glaring fact that Livestrong's financials have to be audited by an outside firm. Obviously, he has no concept what an audit entails. These accounting firms don't just take a once over of your P&L...they send in accountants to your office for months at a time. During this time, the accountants pour through every GL entry and request backup for everything. This isn't like hiding dirty movie charges on the hotel bill from your wife.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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The performance of athletes who admitted doping and then returned does not your support your theory about this massive advantage.

I'd bet Lance has been tested at least ten times as often as Sindballe. Not sure why Lance owes him or any other triathlete an explanation.
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Re: Thunder Bear Calls out Lance....WOW. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
AJHull wrote:
Hugh - do you think Arnold still takes steroids? I highly doubt it and he is still much bigger than the average man. I cannot believe this is a debate.


A J, for endurance sports we're mainly talking about hematocrit levels as the significant performance booster not muscle mass. These fall off rather quickly after cessation of use or transfusion. I'd bet that Arnold is sttill pumping a good bit of iron unlike the majority of same agers. If you've seen him with out his shirt lately he really isn't all that impressive.

Hugh


I agree on your point about the hemocrit, however, there is a lot to be said for systemic training at a high level over years on it's effect on the mitochondria - the cell's power producers. Taking PED's allows an athlete to maintain that high level of training mainly due to the rapid recovery from hard sessions. I am not proclaiming to be an expert in the field but this is based on the knowledge I gained in Eric Bannister's sport science and physiology courses at Simon Fraser University. He is world renowned for his contributions to sports science (TRIMPS is his high brain child).

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