the transition is one of the top aerodynamic shapes on the market.

the generic carbon frames are usually pretty terrible. it will be a slower frame, even if it is lighter.

just go buy some used 404 wheels

and a disc cover.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Which chinese TT frame? That makes a big difference. They aren't necessarily going to crack easier than the specialized.

For $1100, it looks like there is no downside here to trying it out.

Jack, do you have anything to back said claim? It seems to me that there is no known data on generic frames, but that in itself does not mean they are terrible.

I believe it is this frame..

That frame is a relatively well known TT frame (FM-018) and I haven't heard any specific complaints about durability.

http://dengfubikes.com/...?id=3&classid=22

As far as jackmott's comments. I have no idea if it's a 'terrible' aerodynamic frame, but I think we can all agree that the specialized transition is a tough frame to beat. I would doubt that the FM-018 is as good as a frame that was designed / tweaked in the tunnel.

My next tt build will be a Chinese carbon frame. I have been watching 2 people with them now for ~ 2 years and they love them, zero issues. I was highly skeptical due to some disaster stories I had read, but no way to really quantify if they were true or just some industry rep trying to trash their name. As far as being less aero, I could believe that for sure. I'm just of the mind set that until I perfect my body position I'm not going to go cuckoo for cocoa puffs over components/wheels/frame since body drag is ~ 80% of the battle.

If you get it please post pics and a review...thanks!

Not saying you are wrong But if someone copied a frame exactly how could it be less aero, Or if someone tests a frame and then someone else makes one as close as possible to it how do we know if their frame is more or less aero ? Has anyone ever put one of these chinese frames in the tunnel

I have to say I don't quite understand that sentiment...even with a "less than perfect" body position, faster equipment will make you faster than you would have been otherwise. Sure, the bigger gains are potentially with your position, but that's also going to depend on how close to "perfect" you are in the first place.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

How do we know they are less aero and IF they are what are the numbers.

First I should say that by terrible I mean in the context of comparing aero TT frames. Some of they are probably better than a round tube bike (though some may not be).

The biggest giveaway is that most of them have huge bulbous head tubes, this is an indication that they aren't even trying to actually be aero, but just look it. Other clues abound if you compare them side by side next to a transition or p3 etc

when wind tunnel data is not available, you can always turn to frontal area, which is a very good proxy. That the easiest thing to do if you want to make an aero bike but don't have the resources to design it in a wind tunnel, and most of the generic carbon frames aren't bothering even with that. So how can we trust the subtleties of their tube shapes?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

it couldn't be.
but I've not seen one that was an exact copy of one of the good TT bikes.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Has anyone measured one to see how much difference in size ? If you have please post the info for us. I wish someone would tunnel test the wheels and frames . Put an end to this. I just looked at the bontragger 50's clincher. They may be aero but look and feel like a plastic faring on a wheel. I know aero is really confusing and hard to understand BUT being from Missouri I just wish someone would show me. I would like to know if these bikes/wheels are less aero and if so compared to what and how much less.

I think that there are some really interesting open mould chinese TT frames out there to be had that wouldn't give up too much to the best frames out there.

The planet x exocet can be purchased as an open mould frame (planet x just re-brands them).

I also think that the WS01 from gotobike is an interesting option with cables routed behind the stem and a cervelo-like rear wheel cut out.
http://www.gotobike.com.cn/...06&previd=500027

You can get a decent idea on wheels by looking at zipps WT results over the years, as they went from triangular to semi toroidal to FC. Most "off brand" wheels use designs similar to one of those shapes.

For frames its tougher, no one is likely to spend the money WT testing open mold frames.

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Styrrell

I hear ya Tom you are totally right on. I'm just weird. I'm perfectly happy to spend money on a frame that facilitates a tt position and a pair of aero bars. Beyond that I know there is a ton of work I can do with training and position to be faster short of breaking out the credit card. Heck if I ever got so fast that I had to step back and assess myself by saying 'wow there isn't much left to do here but go after faster equipment now' then I would instantly ante up for a $10K aero beast. Showing up to a tt with a crappy position and fancy aero gear doesn't make sense *for me*. If someone wants to do that there isn't a thing in the world wrong with it, just doesn't fit my approach.

The only reason I would consider another tt bike IS b/c of the Chinese carbon b/c it's so darn inexpensive. I can be happy riding a road bike with a forward post as I never plan on going over a 40K tt again. Sure it won't handle as well and might be a tad less comfy, but geez it's 24.8 miles I will most likely survive.

There are 1000 generic carbon frames, which one do you want to test? why not just get a good aluminum frame from specialized/trek/cervelo/felt so you don't have to worry about it? similar prices, better shapes.

the bontrager 50 you saw uses the same fairing HED does, its a very aero shape and a good wheel.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Is 't the Transition just a Chinese frame but designed by Specialized?

Almost all TT bikes are Chinese made however the big boys (Specialized/Trek/Cannondale/etc) all own their own moulds, over see the production chain, do QA testing & warrenty/backup the product with their name on it. That's the difference between a name brand & what is often refered to "Chinese carbon".

My next road bike frame will be a Chinese carbon, most likely the Venge rip off cause it's purdy :)

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Chicks are like Voltron, the more you can get, the better it is." -Tucker

Quote:

when wind tunnel data is not available, you can always turn to frontal area, which is a very good proxy.

1) Please re-post that graphic you have of the round tube and the airfoil of much larger frontal area with the same drag.
2) Please reconcile the claim in the quote above with the graphic.

we aren't comparing round tubes to airfoils but entire bikes of similar overall shape.

this proxy would not be appropriate comparing a roun tube road tube road bike to a p3 or p3 clone.

it is also a proxy, and imperfect secondary way to make a choice when no other information is available.

if you DO have other information available, you should use it.

its likely to be a safe method since it is unlikely the clone factories would accidentally come up with better tube shapes than the big bike makers who had engineers actually work the problem.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

almost all carbon bikes are asian built.

nobody is suggesting much is wrong with how they are built. its entirely the design and shapes that are going to make them not quite as good.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Quote:

the generic carbon frames are usually pretty terrible. it will be a slower frame

Quote:

The biggest giveaway is that most of them have huge bulbous head tubes

That sounds an awful lot like Tom Demerly's review of the Transition and that terrible sloping top tube. :-)
I'm not saying you're wrong, you're just being very sure of yourself in the absence of data. Oh, and speaking of headtubes, you've seen the new Shiv, right?

I haven't seen any of the "newer" frames in person but the first PX bikes were horrible aero wise. Money, reliability, and CS wise I have heard good things. If you want a graphic take a look at the results of the Scott Plasma 1 in the WT. There you had some airfoil shapes that were super wide. The PX frames I saw were even worse that the Plasma as far as leading edge and over all width.

I have no affiliations to any bike company and want to throw out there that I broke a set of carbonZone bars in 2 weeks. No wrecks etc. I have ridden on Chinese carbon wheels with no problem but do have experience with poor quality break. There were no wrecks or even potholes hit prior to the bars breaking.

That made me buy the specialized transition over this frame last winter when I was determining which to buy. I would bet the specialized cable routing, drop out finishes,etc would e with the cost in the end anyway.