"Rick in the D"... you see this is where the problems start. You make assumptions and misquote people, then field a thread to become the center of attention, and basically try to hijack it for everyone's amusement. But even you can't back up the claims people keep making about asian open mould frames. add something relevant, rather than try to get attention drawn to yourself.

1) I have nothing against Tom A or his data or his tests. I heard that some of these tests were done in 500m sprints, then braking, turning around and accelerating in the opposite direction. it that is his TT test, then it sounds more like a crit or closed-circuit race of some kind, whereas a true onsite TT test should be an actual course, with little to no braking and substantial riding into all major directions N-E-S-W, constant speed at near max BPM and power output, is what it's all about...and not braking and turning around every 500m. If i read that wrong, then i apologize. and if they rode 40km, in 500m sprints, then that means braking and turning around 20 times. how can you test drag properties properly if that is the case? I'd say you're testing brake pads. again, I could be wrong there, and I haev nothing against Tom A, so please don't go.

2) I don't consider jackmott to hold any "high ground." That never crossed my mind, nor is it a concern. I merely disagree with his flaming of wild opinions. All i know is he has been talking out of his a$$ and not backing up his claims about asian open mould frames with any definitive articles supporting all these views he has. Until he proves himself, he either should stop talking (like he's done for the last 24 hrs), and/or stop making what can be considered to be false claims. He honestly sounds like a sponsored rider that makes a back-hand profit in one shape or form by his sponsors, and his job is to slander competitors and recruit followers on ST to whatever he "considers" to be the "best" bikes out there.

3) why am i an insurgent? because i asked someone to backup their random claims that was bashing part of the industry we are interested in?

4) you mentioned manufacturer data again. that's biased marketing hype. show us the truely independent data, done by a company that was not paid to produce specific results to a specific manufacturer.

5) Cervelo. I do not dislike cervelo. I've actually done work for them. I do think there is a large number of people that ride a cervelo that have god complexes and crave attention...but that is a personal view, and not a fact.

6) CAN ANYONE PRODUCE ARTICLES SHOWING ASIAN OPEN MOULD FRAMES FROM 2010-2011 ARE DEFECTIVE AND SLOW? OR EVEN SHOW THEY -CAN -RUN WITH THE "COMPETITION"? If you can't then ask yourself WHY do the major manufacturers NOT want to go there? WHY don't they want to attack the open market? Because they would be attacking their OWN production factories and business associates in many many cases.

7) I bet that FLYXI "FRX-FL-106" TT frame is within 5% as good as whatever is considered the "best" TT frame out there. The "FLX-FR-103" is probably just about as close as well. It would be great for the major players to independently and fairly have them tested and an honest report produced.

8) Aluminum frames don't ride the same as carbon. why do people keep bringing them into the thread? it's not about aluminum frames.

Ok "Rick in the D"...back to you....go ahead, make fun of us again for everyone's amusement. Deflect everyone's attention from the fact Jackmott couldn't defend all the things he said.

6) CAN ANYONE PRODUCE ARTICLES SHOWING ASIAN OPEN MOULD FRAMES FROM 2010-2011 ARE DEFECTIVE AND SLOW? OR EVEN SHOW THEY -CAN -RUN WITH THE "COMPETITION"? If you can't then ask yourself WHY do the major manufacturers NOT want to go there? WHY don't they want to attack the open market? Because they would be attacking their OWN production factories and business associates in many many cases.

From the list of argument fallacies:



Argument from ignorance: asserts that a proposition (Chinese carbon bikes are just as fast as a Cervelo P4) is true because it has not yet been proven false

http://en.wikipedia.org/...ument_from_ignorance

bhglobal why don't you feel any responsibility to show us that these chinese bikes are as fast as ones designed by a team of engineers? You say that Jack has to come up with the data or else his argument is false ---- the same is true of you, is it not?



p.s. the reason I keep bringing up Cervelo P3 alu's is that the poster cited concerns with cracking (durability) and aerodynamic drag ---- I think the Cervelo P3alu beats the knock off chinese frames on both of those issues. I don't care about ride feel ----- I have owned carbon bikes and could never discern the difference. But that's just my opinion.

Jeremyb - all you have to do is put a small dent into your aluminum bike and it's worthless.

actually, after waiting a day, no one has been able to produce a single trade article, to support all your claims that asian open mould TT frames are inferior, in build quality, ride durabiity or aerodynamics.

all the naysayers lost this one.

jackmott said the transition had the best numbers. i produced info on an asain open mould frame for $3000 less than a transition frame, with similar qualities. no one could shoot it down. some of you briefly said it was a cool looking frame.

other than that, you spent all your time putting people down, argueing, and produced zero research material.

i guess that dispells the myth.

Jeremyb - all you have to do is put a small dent into your aluminum bike and it's worthless. it can't be repaired, and it's structural properties are shot. when aluminum frames dent, the next step is for it to shear off. why do you keep bringing up your aluminum bicycle? this thread is not about aluminum bicycles. lol. even you are mentioning durability issues with open mould frames now...where is this coming from? quote an article about frames from 2010-2011, not just ritchey forks. (good article, but not what we are looking for here).

"Additionally, I'd never ride a chinese carbon fork with carbon steerer tube"

Do you ride any bikes with carbon steerers? The vast majority are made in the orient. Certainly not all but most.

1) I have nothing against Tom A or his data or his tests. I heard that some of these tests were done in 500m sprints, then braking, turning around and accelerating in the opposite direction. it that is his TT test, then it sounds more like a crit or closed-circuit race of some kind, whereas a true onsite TT test should be an actual course, with little to no braking and substantial riding into all major directions N-E-S-W, constant speed at near max BPM and power output, is what it's all about...and not braking and turning around every 500m. If i read that wrong, then i apologize. and if they rode 40km, in 500m sprints, then that means braking and turning around 20 times. how can you test drag properties properly if that is the case? I'd say you're testing brake pads. again, I could be wrong there...

"Rick in the D".....You ....misquote people"

...then field a thread to become the center of attention

....and basically try to hijack it for everyone's amusement.

But even you can't back up the claims people keep making about asian open mould frames.

...add something relevant, rather than try to get attention drawn to yourself.