"I went to the pool. I did flip turns for the first time. I hit the bottom of the pool once. I had a few good flip turns. I was slightly faster, but much more out of breath. It was a good experiment. I impressed many women*. I will practice my flip turns, and continue to do them in the future."

In one of my first triathlons, there was a pool swim of 250 yds. I can do flip turns, but when I am swimming hard, I sometimes hesitate on when to flip and just get to the wall, and end up doing an open turn. I realize that this is just my mind's way of tricking me into getting that rest when you do an open turn. Anyways, in the race, I was psyching myself up to do all flip turns (all 9 of them). I charged down the lane for my first 25 yds under the watchful eye of the 100 or so nervous people waiting to start. As I neared the wall, I was all pumped, and did a nearly perfect flip, and then pushed hard enough to get 1/2 way down the lane. Only problem was that when I got to full extension, my toes barely touched the wall and I was dead in the water...I did open turns for the rest of the race.

Next year, I'm doing all flip turns and actually pushing off. Baby steps...

Ok here goes.

Pro's for touch turns.
You get an extra breath at each turn.
You get to check out the babe / stud on the pool side.

Cons for touch turns
You don't use these in races
You STOP at each end ( open water swimming you keep moving )
You have to find the end of the pool to turn properly.
When you start getting tired your turns get slower and slower
Your losing time on the other swimmers who flip turn. ( you maybe a faster swimmer than them but touch turning is slower )

Pro's for flip turning ( rear name Tumble turns )
No stopping at the turn ( in and out )
gives you a continuous swim .
will put you in oxygen debt ( just like in a race situation when you get a wave in the face when you try to breathe )
Just another skill that you will have acquired.
Not losing time on the turn to slower swimmers who FT.

Cons for Tumble turning
Not getting that extra breath at the end of each 25 / 50 mtrs
Are hard to learn but worth the effort ( in my humble opinion )
You cannot use these during an open water swim

And before anybody takes offense to what I have written and wonders at what my great/ lack of knowledge on the subject is .

I train using tumble turns , never touch turns while doing front crawl.

swimming ability is sub 50 mins for IM swm.

Sub 20 mins for Olympic tri swims.

Holding back factor to my swimming . ME I am lazy and don't train.

......usually do flip turns but sometimes throw
in "open turns" just to aggravate the masters
folks!

That's interesting Tom,

The change of balance makes sense from a weather standpoint, living in Ontario I understand, maybe there is not as big a specificity for swimming compared to biking and running.

Thanks for the feedback.
Andrew

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C'mon legs run faster!
Being fast on a crappy bike is cool
Fueled by Guinness, Tuborg, Anchor Steam and Creemore Springs

I don't think it matters much. I've gotten better with them after practicing for a week but do not bother. I instead do a horizontal pivot before I hit the wall and push off. The timing works out similarly.

Nice summary. Now if someone can just remember your post the next time this comes up and link to it early!

Nope. btw I am a proponent of doing flip turns, but there is no disguising the fact that overall you cover a set distance faster with turns (flip or otherwise).
Simply check the world records for the short and long course for equivalent distances. The clearest example is in the 50m where you have Popov's 21.64 in the 50m pool (no turns) and Nystrand's 20.93 in the 25m pool (1 turn). The Long course 50m WR is 3.4% slower. Case closed.

However saying that a MOP/BOPer is still likely to do the majority of the IM swim courses faster than they could do 3800m in a 50m pool.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

Nice troll but no that is not 3%.

Well, that makes things simpler for me. I was afraid to try a flip turn at the pool where I train because I thought the swimmers would laugh if it looked awkward. ("Look at her, she's trying to pass herself off as a swimmer.") Since it sounds my open turns already identify me as someone who's not a "real" swimmer, I suppose the swimmers would view my clumsy flip turns as par for the course.

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"Real winners aren't content with yesterday's victories"

Ian,

The question still remains for me, how does flip turning turn me into a better open water swimmer? I understand getting a breathe at the end of the lane might give a bit of a break. But beyond that, I am not sold. All the streamline talk of pushing off the wall is just foo foo juice for the ears. If I am not streamlined for the other 20m of the pool, being streamlined out of the flip turn isn't exactly a mind blowing technique breakthrough that is going to save me minutes on my stroke. I've always been a slower pool swimmer due to open turns, I'm cool with that. My ego has accepted that. I think its pretty funny seeing fellow swimmers looking down at me.

But the comment about wearing jeans while skiing, that might make me do flip turns no matter what. I almost pissed myself when I read that.

The question still remains for me, how does flip turning turn me into a better open water swimmer? you said it the breath at the wall. yesterday i became a flip turner, now normally i can do a 500 in 7.40-7.45 crusing so thats about 6.10-6.25 for a 400. today was day 2 and i did a 400 towards the end of my workout and came in at 6.59 and was beat, out of breath and really tired. now when this new habit becomes easier i will really be swimming straight thru a set, not getting ANY rest between 25's and will be stronger for swimming 1500 yards in the open water where you get no rest at the wall. it might be only 1 minute faster but if i use less energy that just gives me more matches to burn later

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ken
trying to act like a runner

keep it up. you will certainly get fitter. eventually you will get faster too!

I'm a troll?

From your troll-like post:

"What a crock of slowtwitch shit. I must've missed that survey. I've been to Kona, I swim in the top 3% at IM's, top 15% at Hawaii. Never kick turn, never will. When I do an open turn, I like to barely touch off the wall. That way, I get more swimming done and less gliding."

I was replying to your claim of being a top 3% swimmer. Your 1:01 is impressive but don't go off acting like you're some awesome swimmer cuz you don't do flip turns.

Please show us your top 3% IM swims.

jaretj

No...You're a troll. Admit it. He didn't say top 3% of what group. OY!

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

t daddy
I'm not looking down on you, I (like anyone who grew up around a pool) just don't understand why you wouldn't do them if you can. This whole thread boggles my mind...but it's fun!

My point about flip turns making you a better open water swimmer is simply that it will allow you to train with better people. Nothing more, nothing less. The triathletes around here who make the biggest improvements in their swimming are the ones who work their tails off so that they are able to hang with swim team (which ever group that may be: varsity, club, masters, etc.) and do things swim teams do even if it's not absolutely specific to swimming in a lake.

If you're just starting out with swimming, learning flip turns should be low on your priority list, if you're already proficient flip turns are part of the craft.

I agree with that. I think I am just irked that the perception of one who doesn't do a flip turn can't be fast. Is there a sense of elitism on ST? Just a little but thanks for your view.

Thanks Bernie. Jaret, please read my 1st post. If I was 3% at Hawaii, I probably wouldn't be sitting at my computer getting my panties in a bind over flip turns. I'd be doing flip turns already ;)

You're right...I stand corrected :P

jaretj

I typically swim about a 1:15 - 1:20 100/yd pace for say a 500 - it varies. I don't flip-turn because it makes me sick (severe nausea). I can open turn as fast (true maybe not as efficient) as those who swim with me.

So do I "suck at swimming"?

I did, as a matter of fact I quoted it.

Re-read my post, I never said you were top 3% at Hawaii

jaretj

You're right...I stand corrected :P

Now, if I could only get my wife and kids to see it!

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

I can open turn as fast (true maybe not as efficient) as those who swim with me.

So do I "suck at swimming"?


Not compared to those who swim with you.

You know your wife is allways right :)

Please ask her if triathletes should do flip turns in training. Since I know her old swim teacher, maybe I should ask her too :)

jaretj

You know your wife is allways right :)

Don't I know it!

Please ask her if triathletes should do flip turns in training. Since I know her old swim teacher, maybe I should ask her too :)

I'll ask, but I'm pretty sure I know her answer. For the last couple of years, her idea of flip turning in the pool has had something to do with the chaise float and equalizing the sun exposure for the summer tan. She has raced duathlons exclusively since the second year, which is funny considering she hates running almost as much as she hates swimming!

You might have better luck at getting an answer that is accurate.

For what it's worth, I got in the pool for the first time since August today. God, that sucked. I am going to pretend that I swim again Friday morning.

Bernie

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______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.