You can't train as effectively in the pool without flip-turns. Yes, you should do them.

When you live in a rural area, miles from a decent indoor pool, and your only close training pool is your 36 ft backyard pool, I'd have to answer yes.

I guess the next question is - what is it about doing flip turns that make your swim training more effective?

I call bullshit on flip turns. Kalidis - I'm with you, no-one has ever convinced me they help do anything other than the appearance that you "fit in" with the "swimmers". I said it a year ago in another thread...the only reason anyone does flip turns is because the length/shape of our pools require it for any race longer than 25/50m. Imagine a track of only a 100m straight. Can you see the milers running 100m, hitting a wall, doing a flip, then running the other way? They don't have to because tracks are an oval or running races are on straight roads. If all swimming distances could be done on a straight course or a loop, nobody would be doing flip turns nor defending how they somehow "help you train better". Show me a distance runner doing flips on a track, and I'll start doing flip turns in a pool.

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I am trying to keep an open mind, but I just don't see how they will improve the swim leg of any open water triathlon that I do. Now, if I were doing a triathlon and the swim were held in a pool, then you better believe I'd learn to do flip turns. Until then, I'll stick with open turns.

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Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

So tell us... how fast of a swimmer are you?

I don't do flip turns partially because I suck at them. So instead, I do touch turns but I try to time them so that my breathing pattern isn't interrupted--I end up keeping my head under the water for much of the touch turn.

I'm with you. Can't see the reason for flip turns. Far as I can tell all they do is let the other people in the pool know you had swim lessons when you were a kid. Maybe I'm just jealous, but when I see someone flip turn at the gym pool I say "Hollywood" and smile.

Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

When I see triathletes not flip turning I say "ignorant" and smile. :-)

But you still haven't offered any reason why one can't train as effectively without flip turns.

Please share your wisdom.

Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

What do you do in the alternative? Do you grab the wall and push off in the opposite direction?

My 2 cents: this actually allows you to briefly rest at the end of each length. Sure, it may be short, but, it is a little break. In open water, there are no opportunities to grab anything or take any breaks. So, IMHO, doing flip turns is better for your endurance training.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Even if you are keeping your head down during an open turn (which is incredibly awkward)...you're still getting more of a rest at the wall than you would during a well-executed flip turn.

it's really not that hard to learn....

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__________________
JP

my twitter feed

1. Lets you keep up with a faster lane during swim practice
2. Easy way to sneak some bonus ab work into a workout without doing anything else
3. It's good to feel comfortable when you're uspide down in the water and disoriented while being forced to hold your breath. Because you will get disoriented in rough water situations when the surf gives you a tug.
4. Easier on the back and shoulders than open turns are.
5. Because even if you think you're quick on your open turns, you're still getting rest on them you wouldn't get doing flip turns. An extra second per 25 or 50 adds up to a huge amount of 'stealth rest' when you're doing 250s or 300s. Turns force you into more continuous swimming.

Because fast people do it. Google the details.

If you want to continue to suck at swimming (which most people do), then don't flip turn.

This is awesome! Now that I know its been my turns holding me back, my problems are solved. Kona here I come.

Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

Yeah... didn't you read Dan's Kona flip-turn survey? Not single Kona qualifier who doesn't flip turn in the pool.

Seems that people who want to do something well, learn the skills necessary to do well. Amazing!

• Any skill you can acquire that makes you more agile and fluid in the water can't be bad.
• It gives the feeling of more continuous swimming as opposed to the stop and go of touching the wall and picking your head up out of the water.
• Allows you to learn good body control and feel for the water.

do you want to continue to swim like a triathlete, or do you want to swim like a swimmer? if the latter is your goal, then do the turns. if you want to get better, then do the turns. if you want to be happy swimming 1:30+/100 for a 500 for the rest of your life, then swim like a triathlete.

on our team in college there were a few times we did visualization exercises with the head sports psych guy at school. part of the visualization process was inhaling and exhaling slowly and deeply. he was always amazed how huge our lungs were. he said he never worked with another sports team which could inhale and exhale so deeply. former swimmers tend to have huge aerobic engines. part of that is because we have to learn to swim aerobically with limited access to oxygen in order to still maintain efficient stroke mechanics. flip turns could be included in "efficient stroke mechanics". not only do good swimmers not breath during the turn (its not possible), but good swimmers also don't breath on the stroke before the turn or the first stroke breaking out of the water. before i became a triathlete i never though about "how difficult" flip turns are. many triathletes cite "running out of breath" as one of the main reasons they stay away from flip turns. in my opinion, that is the primary reason you should do them. i can flip, turn, push off the wall, and take 2 or 3 strokes without breathing without even having to take a deep breath before starting the process. do you want lungs like that? do you think they might help you a little bit in triathlon?

i think the lung capacity development is a huge part of the reason so many swimmers tend to perform well in triathlon. obviously you have to have more than just big lungs though, or else we might start to see a huge influx of opera singers into multi-sport...i digress...

turns will certainly make you faster in the pool. that means you will either be able to start leading your current lane, or it will help you in moving up a lane to be able to swim with the faster folks. some "open turn people" claim they are simply handicapping themselves, so they get the same benefit. This is not true. A good swimmer can swim a set of 5x500 at both a faster speed and higher intensity (ie % of threshold speed) than a slower swimmer. As you move to the faster lanes you will begin swimming with people who are not merely focused on "getting through a workout", rather they are focused on swimming at a very high intensity level. i would equate this to riding on a group ride with riders who are stronger than you are. perhaps you get dropped the first time. the next time, you might make it a little farther. next you make the ride without getting dropped. afterwards you are taking huge pulls for the group and driving the train. you are the one bringing the intensity. now you get to look for an even faster ride. swimming is the same. moving up a lane is like moving from the C ride to the B ride to the A ride to finally being able to shell everyone else on the A ride.

flip turns are much better for your shoulders. open turns are really bad for your shoulders. you have a much higher chance of developing shoulder tendinitis (aka impingement syndrome) if you are doing open turns.

suck it up and do them. learn to deal with the lack of oxygen, as you will become accustomed to it and become more fit in the process.

Tell me, do you think fire was a good idea? Some people will debate anything.

Sarcasm aside, there are good reasons for spending the time to learn flip turns. Fla Jill has listed the biggest advantages. (By the way, what is wrong with looking like the "cool" swimmers? ;-)

Other analogous concepts: do you wear cycling shoes? Everybody says stiff soles are better, but where is the scientific study to support it? How about cycling clothes? How about running shoes? Certainly combat boots will do the trick and help prevent ankle sprains.

My name is Bassman and I approve this message.

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fka: bassman

After the swim, I'm a fish outta water.

I don't do flip turns cause they make me dizzy. Two instructors have tried to help and have not found flaws in my general execution yet i get so nauseous that i have to quit swimming and lie down. Thus no flip turns.

Hi,

I must say that I am very passionate about my swimming. Raised on it,pursued it competitively for 12 years before my first tri.

I am a Tri- athlete, and by that, I aspire to proficiency and SKILL in all 3 sports, Minimum.

That said, despite my middle of the (competent and fast) pack 9 and 10 hour IM finishing times (all 26 of them at this point), I am always out to exit the water in the top 15 AG overall in any international IM (or 70.3) I compete in.

So yes, be a real swimmer, swim like a real swimmer, swim with real swimmers. You cannot do the challenging send-offs when you lose 4 body lengths to me on EVERY turn. If you cannot do the send-offs you will not make the necessary progress. Work to nail your flip turns. Then work to lengthen your push-offs. first exiting past the flags, working 2, then 3 then 4 then 5 dolphin kicks before breakout. (Yes and Michael Phelps does 7-8, so there).

I only swim about 15 of every 25m lap, I make the hard send-offs. I never swim open water more than 1x/ week. I never exit slower than 54 (or 27 at 70.3). It is a matter of pride and skill.

Raising your swimming game to match that of your other 2 sports is an important skill that has effects and relevance beyond T1, be fast and there is no drafting to bitch about on the bike. Choose to be slow and skill-less and doom yourself to be back there again with all the 1:05 (or 32 @ 70.3) or slower swimmers, forever caught up in a draft fest on the bike, bitching about how everyone is a cheat.

Aspire to exit the water in sub 55 (or 27 @ 70.3), see how little drafting there is at the sharp end of the bike pack when you are up there.

Flip turns: yes

Now go and sign up fora good swim clinic: Whether its with Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen or Steve Tarpinian (sp?) or the local US Swimming coach, now is the time to raise your game. It could be the most effective $200-500 you spend this season.

Time for bed, Masters is at 5:15 and that comes early.

Tom Price

'open' turns whilst doing freestyle look damned ridiculous! learn to do a 'tumble turn'. and when you begin to get tired, continue to do them...

SeaL masks are also very ugly.

is a tumble turn the same thing as a flip turn?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

yeah they are called tumble turns in the southern hemisphere ( didn't realise they had a diff name up your way..). Touch turns are for breaststroke and butterfly only!! I was never a backstroker but if you think doing tumble turns is hard on your lungs try doing turns in a 200m short course race where you're underwater for around half of a 25m pool (ie for breaststroke in my case, fly and back are prob even harder in a race considering you're kicking most of the time if you're staying underwater for long periods of time)

What about flip turns (or tumble turns) without touching the wall? If it's about training for triathlon a) who cares the actual time to do a given distance if you include the turns; What matter really is the speed/ relaxation whilst swimming; b) it may help to stop start when sometimes you are stuck at a buoy. I have been stuck turning around a buoy and be stuck 'in trafic' and had to start swimming in open water, but I never had to push off a wall in a triathlon. Our tri coach had us doing this drill and it's not easy and pretty tiring.

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Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

Thank you, FLAJill, for providing the only real list of possible benefits to flip turns.

Sync - I'm a very slow swimmer, but not because I don't do flip turns, but because I just learned to swim 1-2 years ago. I've gained considerable time and am continuing to get better. And your question has nothing to do with whether flip turns are helpful or not. You keep stating opinions ("because they'll make you faster", or "just because they're better", etc), but you never give any solid reasons (like FLAJill did).

I'll concede this: there are two arguments/claims being thrown around here and some are mixing the two together...

Claim 1: Doing flip-turns makes you a faster swimmer. This is where I call bullshit. Your ability to flip under water, kick off a wall, then start your swim the other direction in no-way impacts your ability to swim faster between the flip turns.

• Swimmer A: Lives on a deserted island, alone, with a 50m pool Swims everyday with flip turns.
• Swimmer B: Lives on a deserted island, alone, with a long lake/pond that's several miles long. Swims the same, obviously no need for flips turns.
• Are you telling me that ALL things being equal, swimmer A will be faster just because s/he does flip turns? Again I call bullshit. Flip turns exist only because of the environment we swim in - short pools. If tracks were only short straight-aways, distance runners would have to hold their breath and do "jump-flips" on a padded wall to start running the other way!
  
• Fish don't do flip turns! If they were that important, don't you think at least one real fish would do them? ;-)
  

Claim 2: The ability to do flip-turns improves/enhances other things that improve your ability to train to be a better swimmer, i.e., opportunities to swim in faster lanes during practice, blending in more easily with other swimmers, bonus ab work, easier on back & shoulders, etc. I'll AGREE with this claim.

I guess my problem all along has been the people who claim in absolute terms, "flip turns make you swim faster". When you think of all the swim "tools" that aid swimming - pull buoys teaching you balance, kick boards, hand paddles, etc., they all have something to do with teaching you the mechanics of swimming. Flip turns in no-way help you in the mechanics of swimming any stroke whatsoever (other than the flip-turn-stroke!). I think they should add a swim distance in meets called the "flip-stroke 2m", you only get 6 feet of lane, and you just keep doing flip turns over an over. Ok - maybe they should call it the somersault!

*Edit: TomP makes an interesting point, he swims only 15m out of 25m because of his push-off and dolphin kicks, etc. This is exactly my point! That is purely a "short-pool" mechanism for swimming "faster" because he's swimming LESS. You can't do that in the open water. Tom - I bet if you were to stop doing flip turns completely for one-year, but continued to do everything else the same, you would get FASTER. Why? Well - since you admit you only actually swim 15m per 25m
, without the flip turns maybe that would turn into 5-10m additional time you could spend on the actual stroke you use in the open water. The flip-turn isn't making you swim faster. It is indeed helping you get to the wall faster, but not by swimming.

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Could the out of breath feeling be from not exhaling the CO2 from your lungs? I've felt sometimes that was the case.

Also, another good reason for flip-turns is that you have better body position off the wall to start your first stroke since you will allready have been streamlined. I've seen good open turns from swimmers doing breaststroke and fly, even their position off the wall isn't as good as when they do flip-turns.

jaretj

            Good Lord!Now that my hero and mentor has told me to flip turn, looks like I'll have to do it from now on.I use open turns to give me a chance to check out if there are any hot new chicks on the pool deck.Guess that's why I've never won two IMC's like you.Not to worry, as I've already forgotten how to be a triathlete in the last three months maybe flip turns will be first on the list of things to get right this year.By the way,can we see an Ultraman on the calendar this year for you?I'd love to see you hang around in Penticton this year for the IMC/UMC double.

yes.

i've always had difficulty pulling it off however. i've had several fish attempt to help me do them without much success. i am slower in the pool without the technique. that is an absolute.

now after viewing Mike Ricci's video at BT i'm working into it with more success. this 3 step thing is a heck of a lot easier for me to work through. i think within a week i may have this licked.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

For reason #2 alone I will work in flip turns into my swimming. I never thought about it, but it makes sense, you kind of do a crunch on a flip turn.

A short game of water polo really helps with learning how to manouver and turn quickly in the water without having anything to push off of, and is a heckava lot more fun than that drill would be.

As for other turns, y'all are lucky you didn't have to learn the old school backstroke spin turns. I always felt like they were far harder than flip turns ever were.

Here's what you meant to say, Flanagan.

There's a scene in the movie "Good Will Hunting" where our hero feels bad about himself and his shrink, Mork from Ork, finally breaks through and helps Will deal with his issues and insecurities.

So Kalidus, you can't do a flip-turn (if flip-turns are "tiring you out a lot faster" and you're trying to justify not doing them to a bunch of strangers, then you can't do a flip-turn).

That stuff there, Kalidus, that's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault, man. It's not your fault.

Quote:

As for other turns, y'all are lucky you didn't have to learn the old school backstroke spin turns.

Amen to that FLA Jill! I know a guy who was just learning the backstroke flip as a HS freshman, and flipped into the next lane over during his first meet. Oops! But he eventually learned to do backstroke flips both right handed and left handed.

My two cents on the to flip or not to flip question:
NamssoB, you're missing TomP's point. True, you can't get away with stroking only 15 of 25 yards in open water. But the point of long distance swimming, both in the pool and in open water, is to minimize the number of strokes you need to cover a given distance. Incorporating flip turns will help improve your swimming efficiency because you'll come off the wall in a good streamlined position and you can keep cruising in fourth gear rather than wasting energy starting over in first. I guess one could argue that you can get a nice strong pushoff with an open turn, but that would mean a lot of rest time on wall while you decelerate, reposition your body, and accelerate again. I'd rather carrying the momentum over with a flip turn and get back to the swimming.

One thing that does bug me though--those flip turners who make it a point to smack their legs down to make as much "look at me" noise as they can. This really bugs me when they're faster than I am.

The point of a flipturn is to keep the momentum up and the heart rate up. Would it make sense for someone who has been swimming for years and years to stop doing flipturns because the have to affect in triathlons? Nope.

The affect of a flipturn on swimming (swimming, not the swim leg in a tri) is speed and momentum. You push your lungs and heart rate and therefore improve. Michael Phelps.....great example...watch some of his underwater swimming and watch him push off the wall. Its like starting off of the blocks or out of the blocks on the track.

Now, my husband isn't a swimmer first...he is first and foremost an amazing runner. But he's going to do some triathlons and I've been getting him in the pool and writing some workouts for him. He doesn't flip turn, but he does recognize that he could probably swim at a higher heart rate with the turn and wants me to teach him. He may never "get" flipturns and he may. We'll see. But I'm not going to MAKE him...only if he wants to learn how to. It is a lot easier in the long run to do them when you are doing long sets like 1000s or 1200s.

I don't know if they have a direct positive affect in triathloning, but it will improve your swim workouts and your swim workouts will improve your swim leg of a tri as well as your aerobic and cardio fitness, which will of course, make you a better athlete over all.

I have asthma and am much smaller than my hubby. I can hold my breath for a lot longer, and my VO2 max is higher. My theory....he's been running since he was 7, so 29 years. I've been swimming for 27 years.... unless I'm spotting in open water, I breath every 3-5 strokes....most of the time, no breath on last 2 strokes into a turn, and no breath until 2nd stroke out of the turn, past the flags....unless I am just worn out and having a rough workout.

Someone above put it very well.... the riding analogy.

Give it a shot... now if they make you dizzy like they did someone who posted earlier, I would steer clear of them and be careful in open water as your equilibrium may not like the water all that much.

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Tiger for Life -- War Eagle!

This is why you practice your sighting technique. You should be able to check out the scenery while doing 100s on 1:20 without breaking pace, and determine within 5 years and 10 pounds the age and weight of any hot new chicks you see in one sighting. Extra points if you can ID their swim cap at the same time. Just like in open water swimming, some times it takes two sightings in succession: one to spot the landmarks, and a second to get the details.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

    I'm wondering: how many people do open turns because they are triathletes and see no need to learn flip turns for racing, but ride in a pace line or draft during training on their bike. Drafting is not allowed in most triathlons, so I hope triathletes aren't drafting in training ;)

I remember those! They were killer hard!

True, you can't get away with stroking only 15 of 25 yards in open water. But the point of long distance swimming, both in the pool and in open water, is to minimize the number of strokes you need to cover a given distance.


I agree that in a pool, where you are trying to minimize the time spent between the walls, the flip turn (and huge push off with the legs that accompanies it) are valuable. But if you are minimizing strokes by rocketing underwater coming off the wall I don't see how that helps improve open water efficiency. I've tried to push off the guy drafting me and it does not help significantly. :-)

Plus, even though it is a small rest when performing the open turn, I believe the accelleration required to get back up to speed provides its own benefit.

All that being said, I'm a MOP swimmer who is not against learning to flip turn as there may be times I can us it. Does anyone know a good resource to learn from (vid, etc.)? Also, how deep does the pool need to be? Where I swim the water is barely waist deep. Not sure I can flip in that.

Thanks,
Kenton

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"Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn." - Charles De Mar

I don't do flip turns simply because it is an action that does not translate into progress in open water. If someone can make a case otherwise I am all ears.

I am learning to do flip-turns. This is for two reasons: 1. with them I will be able to move up a lane and get pushed harder by the faster swimmers. This will make me a better swimmer. Although slow, I currently lead my lane but cannot quite keep up with the next lane. 2. I figure I may as well enter a few swimming races in pools to keep things interesting and to keep my motivation up. Lots of folks do running races, I figure swimming races should help too.

I don't see how open turns is an action that translates into progress in open water either. It's just easier to do.

So if neither type of turn helps open water swimming then maybe we should do the turn that helps the most with basic swimming.



jaretj

I think Jill laid out the most compelling reason. That being if you are in a masters swim or squad setting, the open turns are holding you back from the opportunity to swim with faster people in a faster lane. A big part of why we go to group swim classes is for that little extra push that comes from the people around. Having faster people around you gives even more of that push to finish the sets in a given time.

Great Qx from the OP !

Excellent reasons from FLA Jill. All the reason I need.

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Hurry Up Every Chance You Get

(formerly LuctorEtEmergo)

So the issue is not flip turns per se, but the strong push off? You'd have the same problem with a well-performed open turn.


I would disagree. In acceleration mode you're taking short inefficient strokes, not the long smooth strokes you should be practicing for a long open water swim.


Try this (click here). Waste deep should be enough. Good luck learning--it took me a few weeks and some sore heels, but once you get the hang of it you'll never go back.

There's also a good guide here:
http://www.goswim.tv/archives.php
search the page for Freestyle Flip Turn. It's a 5 part guide that you can probably skip a few steps of.

Ok, I get that and agree...However, should you be doing flip turns in a 4.5 foot deep pool or only in deeper water? I can tottally see getting a TBI from the MAC lap pools attempting this.

Bob

Hahaha, that was a great post.

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Existence precedes Essence.

I'm curious if there is anyone who is proficient at flip turns but doesn't because they think there is no difference.



Hasn't this topic been beat to death in the past with similar results.

"Doing flip-turns makes you a faster swimmer. This is where I call bullshit. Your ability to flip under water, kick off a wall, then start your swim the other direction in no-way impacts your ability to swim faster between the flip turns."

Rather than your island hypothetical, how about if we take your typical triathlon and after the swim I will pick 10 swimmers from the pack that do flip turns, and 10 who don't. I bet I could hit 100%. ;-)

I would compare it to learning to corner well on a bike so that you can ride with a better group of riders. Even if your race somehow had no turns on the bike, you'd still want to train with better riders so you'd learn to corner.

Learning to do an effective flip turn allows you to train with faster swimmers. Training with faster swimmers will push your limits and should improve your triathlon swimming speed, even if you don't do flip turns in your race. There is a limit to how high up the swimming ladder you can climb without doing flip turns.

Plus you'll look like a swimmer instead of a triathlete. ;)

From TomP:
---"I only swim about 15 of every 25m lap, I make the hard send-offs. I never swim open water more than 1x/ week. I never exit slower than 54 (or 27 at 70.3). It is a matter of pride and skill."

You sound like a much better swimmer than me -- so I should take your advice.. BUT - why is swimming only 15m of every 25m lap a good thing? In a triathlon, you stroke every meter of the course. I would think race day performance would depend on the number of strokes you take in practice, not on the number of lengths you swim. Why would you want to cheat yourself out of all those strokes by such hard push-offs? You're not going to be doing that on race day. I'd think you'd want to take as many strokes as possible.

Sounds like you have a rationale... I'd like to know what it is.

Thanks,

Alex

4.5 feet shouldn't be a big problem. But learning them and practicing them in the deep end of the pool seems prudent. At least for a few days until you have it down.

i don't do tumble turns anymore and i don't push off either. what it means for me is that i am able to maintain identical splits and interval times regardless of whether i'm in a 25m pool or 50m pool. which is really useful for me to monitor my progress.

eganski,
i love you...

how is the P.I.G. coming along? 4 blog posts in 5 days, then nothing for 3??? i was expecting better. you are way overdue.

I started learning flip turns last summer in a pool that had a deep end, but the other end was only about 3 ft. I wound up on my back a few times, lying on the bottom of the pool looking up. Jill's point about learning to cope with disorientation definitely hit a chord with me. When I tried to learn years ago, I wound up at least once completely vertical, but with my head pointing towards the bottom of the pool. Good times.

From my limited experience as a runner/biker swimming with a fish friend, I think it is definitely worth learning. I could tell that it was more consistently aerobic than the open turns.

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there was no one chasing us... distance is its own reward.

Thanks. I'll check out the article.

As for the open turn push off, I specifically try to avoid it and standing. When I reach the wall I ball up, push a little with the arm(s), fall over away from the wall, stretch out, and begin the next lap.

If you need to noticably shorten your stroke to accelerate, you're not doing it right. Instead, it should be a matter of increasing power applied/stroke rate rather than decreasing stroke length.

What a crock of slowtwitch shit. I must've missed that survey. I've been to Kona, I swim in the top 3% at IM's, top 15% at Hawaii. Never kick turn, never will. When I do an open turn, I like to barely touch off the wall. That way, I get more swimming done and less gliding.

Usually the only people that argue against flip turns are those that don't know how to do them. You are faster and there is less interupption with them thus simulating open water condtions more. You don't get that extra half second rest and huge breath on the turn with flip turn. Multiply that big breath by 70, 100, however many times you turn in a pool and it adds up over time. That hypoxic breathing involved in swimming adds up faster with flip turn v.s open turns thus increasing your swim fitness. Not to mention it's less stress on your shoulder that you grab the wall with every time. I have seen shoulder injuries from open turns.
My question is if you can flip turn give me one reason not to do them?

I suppose, in the end, there is a difference between....

......doing an activity for the sake of doing the activity, immersing yourself in that activity and possibly improving at that activity............

.....and doing an activity for the sole reason of convincing oneself that by doing the activity in a very specific and narrow manner, one is going to somehow alter the numerical arrangement of some lonely finishing numbers on some lonely triathlon results page somewhere.

You've set up a false dichotomy. Even if it weren't a false dichotomy, whose to say that either one of these motivations is intrinsically more righteous than the other?

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Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

flip turns make you artificially faster than you actually are.

and nobody asked you to grab the wall in an open turn.

i can flip turn, but i don't do them because when i do 500m i actually want to swim 500m and not 450m, or 445m or 455m. it's just an added variable that is easily eliminated from training. come to think of it, it's not so much the turn but the pushing off i have a problem with. it works for me though. my 500m PB in the pool is something like 8:30; my 1500m PB in OW is 24:xx and it wasn't short.

Why do you dismiss my test and provide your own which doesn't really prove a causal relationship, nor does it provide a control group? You are missing my point entirely, and your example proves that you're mixing the two claims together. I agree that 10/10 will be flip-turners. But there's no control for your test. We already know that 90% or more people who are top swimmers, do flip turns. But that doesn't mean the flip turn made them faster swimmers. Maybe the flip-turns made them better "practicers". But if all I do is sit there all day and do flip-turns over and over, my swim stroke will NEVER improve. At some point I actually have to SWIM! You're just taking anecdotal evidence to try and prove something for which there is no proof.

If they made pools the same way they make tracks, do you think anyone would be doing flip turns? I think there are many other examples. How about in the bike...a fast transition does not make you a faster biker, runner, etc. Although knowing how to do a running mount/dismount will speed up your bike split, it does not make you bike faster. How about I take the top 10 finishers in the typical bike race and see how many of them can do a running mount and dismount? I would bet 1/10, and the 1 would be lucky not to slip and fall.

Maybe I'm being way too pedantic with this, but when I read "flip-turns make you swim faster", the purist in me says no they don't!

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I'm new to triathlon and swimming, but I'm making the effort to learn flip turns right now. No, flip turns won't directly benefit open water swimming, but I believe they will make training in the pool more effective which will benefit open water swimming.

The main reason as I see it is that swimming becomes more continuous. Instead of the wall being a "mini break" while swimming, it becomes more challenging as you have to hold your breath longer while exhaling at the right time to keep water out of the nose. Then recover while swimming the next length. That's my point of view as a new swimmer, and granted may not apply for more seasoned swimmers. Also worthy of mention.. many areas (like my town) have early season triathlons with a friday evening swim leg at a pool, and then stagger start the bike the following morning. Not flip turning would be a handicap in that case.

Reading through this thread, I see plenty of other compelling reasons to keep working at it. Ab workout? Oh yeah!!! =)

My question is if you can flip turn give me one reason not to do them?

In an open water swim? ;-)

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flip turns won't directly benefit open water swimming, but I believe they will make training in the pool more effective which will benefit open water swimming

Thank you. One point though - could it be possible that when people move from pool swimming to open water swimming, their splits go up because their "100m" time in the pool is artificially inflated due to the flip-turns? If TomP is only swimming 15m out of 25m because of his efficient flip turns and pushoffs, and he's swimming the entire 25m/25m in open water, I'm curious what his splits are in each.

TomP - in a typical race-pace set in the pool, what's your average 100m split? In the open water, same conditions (calm, no wetsuit), what's your point-to-point 100m split. For MOST I bet it is slower.

I bet Michael Phelps' 100m splits are much slower in a calm open water setting mainly because he loses his flip-turn advantage. To me this means the flip-turn speeds up his time from wall to wall, over and over. But in a straight point to point swim, the flip-turns have done nothing to help him.

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What a crock of slowtwitch shit. I must've missed that survey. I've been to Kona, I swim in the top 3% at IM's, top 15% at Hawaii. Never kick turn, never will. When I do an open turn, I like to barely touch off the wall. That way, I get more swimming done and less gliding.

Exactly.

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Till last season I did most of my swim training in the ocean. So I did not see any reason to learn flip turns. Now I'm spending more time training in the pool (: SO! I'm going to learn how to do flip turns:)

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Train safe & smart
Bob

Maybe theoretically. Maybe. But in practice, that's what happens. Think about your water polo games--when you change direction all of sudden, aren't your first few strokes short and choppy as you get up to speed, and then they lengthen and smooth out? Mine are (or more truthfully, were; haven't played water polo in a long time).

I think the bottom line with flip turns is that a mediocre swimmer can realize some significant benefits by learning flip turns though improved "water feel" and better streamlined body positioning, and keeping the strokes in long, efficient cruising mode. Then the secondary benefits of cardiovascular benefits of breath control and swimming in the fast lane. Last and probably least, the psychological factor: if you feel faster you'll be faster, just like on a new bike.

I used to not to flip turns because it was not a movement important for open water swimming.

The problem with not doing them, though, as identified above, is that the tiny break one gets for just touching the wall and turning around gives you an extra breath that you will NOT get when swimming in open water.

Even though I'm a decent swimmer, losing my breath on the open water swim used to be my big hurdle. Simply swimming more while primarily doing flip turns has helped that.

Now that said, I don't do flip turns when I use a buoy and I find my self often just doing flip turns at one end of the pool when I"m taking it easy - they just aren't that fun if you do them right (meaning push off hard and get in 2 strokes before taking a breath). But I'm less worried about losing my breath in the open water now.

I'll chime in with my own reasons fo doing them. However more often than not I don't do them.

1. The reason I often don't do them is because the touch turn seems to be the easier option. Thus I am trying to do more flip turns on the basis that if I avoid the easier option it gives me a better work out. the other day I was timing myself over 1000m and at about 600m I got too tired to do the flip turns. So I guess that doing flip turns is the harder option and thus that is what I should be training at.

2. I'm lucky enough to have a 50m pool to train in, but it gets very crowded (normally about 10-12 people in the lane at any give time and often folks just handing round the shallow end which makes it imposiible to do flips turns without creaming someone. Yes this is France and the swimming lane etiquette is not known, respected nor even enforced by the lifeguards. So normally the turns are less important for me than those swimming in the short pool. However when I go to the 25m pool I tend to do the flip turns more because once I'm in the rhythm of doing them it seems to help keep me in the rhythm of swimming better.

3. I'm getting slightly faster at swimming now and the touch turns can often impact my hand/wrist a little too much if I'm swimming at a fast pace

4. Cramps. I used to get a lot of feet cramps while swimming. These would often occur from pushing off the wall with my feet which I tend to to hard on flip turns than touch turns. Thus I avoided flip turns. However now I'm swimming more and my daily water intake and diet has improved a bit the cramps hardly ever appear. However doing the flip turns would soon let me know if I'm about to get cramp problems which would warn me that I'm dehydrating

5. Goggles. I had terrrible problems leaking goggles ever since I started to swim. I've just about now got a make/model which works for me. However pushing hard off the wall from a flip turn seemed to provoke the leakage more than touch turns, hence I avoided flip turns. Now I do flip turns to expose any goggle problems so I know whether I have truly fixed the problems or not.

6. If I don't do flip turns then I can't keep up with the train at club trianing sessions. Then I ruin the run for those behind me.

7. I get the feeling that doing them makes me more comfortable in the water and more aware of my orientation and surroundings. I can always do with a little more confidence in the water.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

So why be satisfied with top 15% in Kona? Yeah that's good but why not do something to make you better...as has been mentioned training with faster people will make you faster. Faster people don't let guys who do open turns and barely push off the wall swim with them. Just like fast cyclists don't let guys who can't hold their line ride with them.
You're a Kona qualifier, obviously you're competitive. I don't understand why a competitive athlete would want to settle even if it's only the swim.

Short Course (25 Yards) to Long Course (50 Meters) to Open Water.

I am the parent of three swimmers. As compared to their peers they are better at Open Water than Long Course meters and are better at Long Course meters than Short Course yards.

Mostly, the difference is due to "micro rest" and their relative disadvantage off the walls as well as psychologically "knowing" they are better at Open Water and Long Course.

Kicking/pushing/streamlining off the walls has been discussed above.

"Micro Rest" is a concept I stumbled upon a year ago. I read an article that discussed that short course racing with very good turns allows athletes to partially rest their pulling muscles every turn which leads to a different stroke than if they were swimming continuously. The article indicated that short course training could be a detriment to long course racing at the highest level of competition.

Now, that said, I bet most of us do not swim fast enough to have any of this apply to us and we ought to flip turn if we can.

David K

Exactly. You can call bullshit.. but you know jack and shit about swimming. Get back to the pool for another 5-10 years and give your opinion then.

If you can get the lane first, flip turns (and the odd bit of butterfly) really do encourage slower swimmers to seek other lanes before going to yours, if the pool is otherwise somewhat evenly crowded.

And once you get really good at them, and can land your feet on the wall within about four inches of where you're aiming, there's an art to flipping very close to the end of the lane hogs that will leave tham making sure to give you wall space every time they see you getting close to the end of the length.

Think about your water polo games--when you change direction all of sudden, aren't your first few strokes short and choppy as you get up to speed, and then they lengthen and smooth out?

A little bit of apples and oranges here. In water polo, you are vertical in the water when stopped. Those first couple of strokes are shorter and choppier to get you up on a plane faster (They are also useful for clearing a bit of space around you). Coming off of a wall, you are already on a plane.

The best ab training in the pool is to kick butterfly on your back. Try it, and within 200 yards your abs will be letting you know they need a break.

Do flip turns on every lap the next 20 times that you swim and report back. It was easy for me to convince myself that open turns were actually beneficial to my tri training when the reality was that I could not flip turn for crap. Finally decided that I no longer wanted to look like a jackass at the pool anymore and forced myself to flip on every turn. After a couple of weeks became second nature. No way I would go back. Do not think it has a negative effect on swim training. As for a translation to open water swimming it is just entirely different.

You will be if you're doing a good flip turn, but most of the open turners that I see are not.

I still remember the summer of good abs back in high school where our coach threw away the kickboards, and had us doing 4x200 fly kick drills instead 3-4 times a week.

Yep, you definitely feel it.

I can do flip turns, but not when swimming hard. I am a hack at swimming and it costs me AG podium spots in just about every race I do. At some point in the near future, I will get serious about my swimming and start swimming like the fast people.

This means more yardage, better technique, and flip turns. I don't really care why all the fast people do it, as long as it is something all serious swimmers do, I'm doing it too. I'm sure I'll get a little slower at first, but whatever is keeping me from being able to flip turn at a hard effort is probably keeping me from being a faster swimmer overall.

I think triathletes tend to look for any excuse to do something the easy way.

thanks. I love a good flip turn thread.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I am not an expert. I can do flip turns. I stopped doing them routinely after talking to a competitive swimmer who explained to me that the point of a flip turn was to cut a stroke our two out. Rather than swimming all the way to the wall, you stop short in order to have room to flip and push off. Since I am interested in open water swimming and need to get all the yards in I can, I touch turn and I intentionally do not push off hard from the wall. However, in a Master's class, I still flip in order to keep pace with the group. I think it is good to be able to do it both ways. Long distance solo swims, no flip. Group swim, flip.

Sarah

A 1:01:15 is a top 3% IM finish?

jaretj

Hi,

This has been beat to death, and the point has been lost on many...........

BUT: I have raced tri's for 27 years and swam for over a competitively for over a decade before that.

I live on a lake, and have several others within 15 min drive. Experiments with altering my personal balance of Pool swimming (with the Top Senior Kids, or the fast lane in Masters) to open water (with other sub 54min fish) has shown my fastest open water racing years are the years where the pool is 90% of the time and once every week or two open water is the balance. The pool is where real swimmers get faster. The open water is where we get slower..........not just swim slower, but lose cruising AND peak sprint speed.

The other point to make is that due to a dearth of 50m facilities in my area, I like many swim in a 25m tank. Whether the pool is 25 OR 50m, I always at a minimum VIGOROUSLY underwater dolphin kick to the 10-13m breakout point...................it is not a glide, that 10-13m is the fastest and most energy (and oxygen) demanding part of every lap. At breakout there are two strokes THEN a breath, breath every 3 to 4 strokes (and yes that means I breath 4x per 25m lap at high Zone 4 to mid zone 5 level effort) until you get to the backstroke flags.......no breath to the wall, Turn and repeat......5-8 vigorous kicks and breakout...........and repeat. The swimmers in this thread understand this.......the triathletes don't.

My typical 52 min IM pace is somewhere around 1:15-ish pace per 100m (my math may suck, plz forgive) My typical pace in the pool in a 4 sets of 5X100m at a 1:30 sendoff is avg of 1:12 per.
Yes, I am faster over the distance in the short course tank, slower in the 50m long sourse tank, slowest of all open water(no wetsuit, in this example). I am SWIMMING the same pace per distance at all 3 but the triathletes have missed the fact that the turn/push-off and subsequent breakout are the fastest part of any swim save the Dive and breakout. As many of us noted at a recent championship meet, Phelps was fastest in time, but analysis showed that Park of Korea was the fastest swimmer for the time he was above water, it was just that the 16yo Park gave up a Meter to MP on every turn.

I know I sound like an ass to some, but I am merely passionate about my swimming AND my triathlon..........please do not rush to judge passion for a brash attitude.

I love swimming
I love triathlon
That is why 36 of my 44 years have been spent in these sports.

TomP

Not single Kona qualifier who doesn't flip turn in the pool.

I have a friend that qualified for Kona who doesn't do flip turns.

My experience... I went from a crappy, gasping, edge hugging, poor technique perpetuating, time wasting swimmer, doing "open" turns, to a mediocre, barely confident, capable of improvement, swimmer when taught to do flip turns.

Obviously I'm no expert but the continuity in the water seems to be the reason behind my improvement.

Tom,

You make some great points and your Tri success makes me take note to your comments

If you swam like a "triathlete" and touch turned, little kick off the wall, more active swimming time per lap do you think you would lose open water speed or because of specificity of training could you gain speed?

Having been a swim teamer as a kid and returning to the pool to do tri's I know that I am faster in the pool with flips but that doesn't translate to open water.

It seems that the main reason to do flip turns is to keep up with the faster swimmers in the pool but could more improvement be made for beginners and AGer's if more of the time in the pool was spent swimming instead of gliding/pushing/kicking?
I am curious as I am touch turning to replicate open water with little push.
Andrew

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C'mon legs run faster!
Being fast on a crappy bike is cool
Fueled by Guinness, Tuborg, Anchor Steam and Creemore Springs

Those turns sucked. Back when I swam in HS, I think it was my senior year (1990) when the newer flip turns for backstroke became legal. I swam IM at most meets, but I could never master the quick old school backstroke spin turns. I used to hate backstroke for that reason alone.

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Adding another concrete point to FlaJill and Flanagan (and others) list:

- build self confidence in swimming ability from mastery of this technique, don't understimate confidence in sport where athletes can sometimes have self-imposed limits

Also, in answer to anothers question: I can do flips just fine (from 30+ years of doing them), but due to recent abdominal injury have to do open turns and no dolphin kicks after push off. I have 2 negatives (in addition to loss of benefits that others have listed) from having to do open turns, once you are already an accomplished swimmer.

1) They break up the rythym of a set. I don't find the actual swimming any different, same intensity, but the intensity has breaks.

2) I feel discouraged to swim at all without the ability to do turns w/kicks. Probably related to 1) above, and having to break a 30+ yr old habit.

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some days you're the windshield some days the bug

The old flip turn debate! As a former long time non-flipper I could never see the point. While I was swimming with some tri friends I noticed the guy in the lane next to me was always beating me off the wall by a body length. This forced me to sprint to catch up. At the end of a set he wouldn't even be tired, while I was. I had to work much harder to maintain the same pace. After several sets I would get fatigued and form would suffer making it even more difficult. Once I learned how to do a proper flip turn I no longer got fatigued so quickly. Last year while training for a HIM, I ramped up to being able to do a straight 1.2 mile swim in a 25M pool by my second swim of the season even though I had done no swimming at all in the prior two years by utilizing flips.

There are many things we do in training that we don't use for racing to a great extent. We don't really use track intervals in a long distance race for example. We also don't do open turns off a wall and get an extra breath every 25-50 meters!

Perhaps the only way to settle this issue is to have a distance race between someone who only trains in open water and never flips, and someone who only trains in a pool and always flips.

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Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

Interesting read, this thread. From a casual observation from an old college swimmer, it looks like the newer swimmers don't think it will help them, and the good swimmers don't even understand why one would ask such a question .Sort of like a no look behind the back pass in basketball, if you got the skills you don't question the move.
Yes, I do think flip turns will help a swimmers progression into a complete swimmer. Sensual awareness, bodyposition, and overall comfort in the water increases the efficiency of a swimmer. Flip turns help develop all of the above.The whole idea of swimming fast is to move thru the water with the least amount of resistance and wasted energy. We work real hard on aerodynamics on the bike and often forget about hydrodynamics in the pool.
Then on the other side of the coin, moving from horrible swimmer to being able to swim a mile with comfort, there are probably other needs that have to be first met in the progression. But as you progress into being an excellent swimmer at some point in time a flip turn and mastery of other strokes becomes beneficial. If you don't understand the why to the last statement, you aren't there yet. Some things you have to just accept and believe later. Word.

"Why do you dismiss my test"

Because the comparison is between flip turns and open turns rather than 50m v open water. Flip turns make you faster because they are harder. Try working out for a month doing nothing but open turns and then go back to flip turns. When I got back into swimming, it took me a month before I was able to do flip turns again. Why? They are harder. The other benefit of flip turns for me is when doing repeats you just get into your groove much better.

[i]Maybe I'm being way too pedantic with this, but when I read "flip-turns make you swim faster", the purist in me says no they don't! [/i]

I believe that there are intangible benefits to the flip turn above and beyond streamline form and increased lung capacity (which I'm not quite sure are real advantages for me). I believe that swimming fast is about confidence in the water and the willingness to do whatever it takes to swim as fast as I can at times when it's required or asked of me. When I'm completely confident I'm not thinking about breathing or turning or hand position or kicking. I'm thinking about beating the guy in the lane next to me or swimming faster than I ever have. Challenge yourself in the water. Bilateral breathe, leave the kickboard at home, do flip turns, train using hypoxic drills and other drills that challenge your confidence.

Its funny how many threads there are that ask for swimming help, but when the good swimmers speak up, its "that doesn't apply to triathlon". And people wonder where the stereotype of "can't excel at 1 so be mediocre at 3" comes from.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

Wow. I know triathletes can argue just about anything, but it amazes me how emotional everyone gets about flip turns. Do them, don't do them, whatever.

What's distressing me is that a 32 HIM swim is now back of the pack. That's what I did at Cali 70.3 and it was a hair off top 20% (even worse, 33 at Wildflower was top 15%).

Of course, everyone knows the swim is pretty much irrelevant anyway for 99% of us

Splits should be pretty much the same or faster...for the most part, unless you are not a good spotter. I would be willing to bet that Michael Phelps open 500 time is pretty much the same as his pool 500...why... same effort. You do lose a little speed going into the flip turn that is made up on the push off... so should be similar.

If you don't care about flip turns, or learning to do them, don't try. But please don't try to dissuade those of us who use flip turns and turn us into open turners. That would be silly.

Someone's point earlier of paceline riding is very smart... I rarely use pacelines mainly because I train with one other person, we'll do them, but not in large groups....also, I will admit, I'm a 'fraidy cat when it comes to riding at 22 mph 1 inch or so from the person in front of me. BUT there IS a training advantage to them as with flip turns.

If you're going to take that argument, that you don't do them in tri so why learn: do you do track workouts? do you do intervals? you don't run around the track all that often in a triathlon, and you may toss in some pick-ups on the run during a tri, but really, how many people do on road intervals during a race...say 5*1000?

TRAINING is training/ Racing is racing. They are both related.

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Tiger for Life -- War Eagle!

Splits should be pretty much the same or faster...for the most part, unless you are not a good spotter. I would be willing to bet that Michael Phelps open 500 time is pretty much the same as his pool 500...why... same effort. You do lose a little speed going into the flip turn that is made up on the push off... so should be similar."

Actually, swims with more flip turns 25m v. 50 m are quite a bit faster. I can't remember the standard conversion that swimmers use but there is one. Something like .5 sec per turn. FLA Jill?

My 2 cents;

Flip turns make you a better swimmer, even in open water since they make you swim without a break at every wall. The "I get more swimming in by doing open turns" argument is bunk, you are just trying to make yourself feel better about taking the easy way out.

That said, check out www.goswim.tv for the Dave Denniston breastroke dvd for the fastest open turn I've ever seen, of course no triathlete I've ever seen does these.

Yes, you are faster in a 25 meter pool than in a 50 meter pool over the same distance. Check out the world records 25m vs 50m.
But this has nothing to do with whether triathletes should do flip turns.

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"I came to Alaska at the perfect time, the price of crab was high, they didn't think cocaine was addictive and there were no sexually transmitted diseases that couldn't be cured with antibiotics....the plan was to live fast and die young...I guess it didn't work out" Wayne Baker

Yes and yes!

As far as the whole debate goes, I had absolutely no idea that this was even debatable. I regard people I see doing open turns about the same way I regard people wearing jeans when they're skiing/snowboarding.

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

If you don't care about flip turns, or learning to do them, don't try. But please don't try to dissuade those of us who use flip turns and turn us into open turners

I wouldn't do that and haven't done that! Not once have I said "Don't do flip-turns" so who have I tried to dissuade? No one. I'm simply disagreeing with those trying to dissuade me from NOT doing flip-turns! The only true way to prove this in my opinion is to conduct a real study with two groups of BOP/MOP swimmers, neither of which can do or have ever done flip turns with an equal average ability and swim times. Split them into a flip-turn group, and an open turn group. Swimmers always swim alone, and flip-turn group will start to include the "normal" (whatever that is in swimming) amount of time learning to do flip turns. Here's the catch. The INSTANT they completely know the basics of the flip turn, have a race in open water and compare the splits/times. Not a year later, 5 years later, or even a month later. The very next day. I would bet money that the non-flip-turn group wins. If flip-turns truly improved freestyle swimming times, then the flip-turn group should win.

But what I read all of the "flip-turn" supporters saying is that the ability to do flip-turns is one of those "overall skills" that is a must-have for playing nice with other faster swimmers, hypoxic swimming, etc. So come back a year later (or 2, 3, 5, whatever) and retest everyone in open water. THEN, and only then, I think you would see the flip-turners faster. A couple people have said it already - Michael Phelps wasn't the faster swimmer, but because his flip-turns are so damn good that he passed the other guy every time in the turn/under water. So that means if their race had been in open water, the other guy would have won because Phelps would not have had the "non-swimming" advantage.

Again, in a previous post I stated I am likely being too pedantic & nit-picky because I am defining swimming as the actual stroke - the 15m portion of TomP's length that he's actually swimming, not gliding or dolphin kicking.

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I always just use the little application here in case I need to convert from SCM to LCM:

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/results/conversions.asp

I find that when someone is crowding the wall in my lane or is annoying me on another level I try to 'snap' my tuns and really hit the water good and hard to make a nice crisp splash. That usually works. I know back when I swam years ago if someone in street clothes or was dry was standing near the wall by our lane we used to try to splash them by snapping the turns. Of course more than once I've seen someone try this and nail their heel to the wall in a most painful way.

For the original poster, I simply do flip turns because they come naturally to me and I've been doing them for years and years and learned them when I was very young. In fact, on the rare occasion that someone is at the end of the lane or something causes me to do an open turn it seems like the next lap/length I am out of rhythm until I can get to the next wall and execute a proper turn.

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"I would be willing to bet that Michael Phelps open 500 time is pretty much the same as his pool 500...why... same effort"

You'd lose that bet.

Looking at last years USA Swimming reg book, every mens freestyle event world record is faster in 25 meter pools vs 50 meter pools from 50 m to 1500 m. For instance Grant Hackett has both short and long course meter world records in the 1500 and he is approx 24 seconds faster in short course.

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"I came to Alaska at the perfect time, the price of crab was high, they didn't think cocaine was addictive and there were no sexually transmitted diseases that couldn't be cured with antibiotics....the plan was to live fast and die young...I guess it didn't work out" Wayne Baker

WAIT! Do you mean that factual and documented data shows that the fewer flip-turns someone does in a race, the SLOWER they are? That's just impossible because all of the so-called experts on ST say it aint so.

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What if I told you I have it on good authority that the Fonz did flip turns, would that change your mind?

If the Fonz did flip turns, I will start doing them TONIGHT.

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http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/bcc83b9f-5fc4-4f5c-8b9d-fa301a2836ae/Rulebook%20Records%20-%20Dec%2018%202007.pdf

"WAIT! Do you mean that factual and documented data shows that the fewer flip-turns someone does in a race, the SLOWER they are? That's just impossible because all of the so-called experts on ST say it aint so."

You are right and wrong both. Right in that fewer flips over the same distance = slower.
Wrong because no one said this wasn't true.

Learning and using flip turns will make you a faster open water swimmer.

No arguments about the benefits of flipturns. My question is about how to execute the push-offs ? On the back, on the side, on the belly ?

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

People who do open turns whilst in the pool, as flip turns supposedly have no relevance to the swim in a triathlon....

do you also wear your wetsuit everytime you swim in a pool, with your tri suit and heart rater monitor underneath? (if this is what you do in a race...)

huh ?
If you are targetting it to me, at least answer my question ;)
Flip turns are good, the bad thing is I suck at them :)

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

Most teaching sequences I have seen have you push off on your back and then corkscrew. The idea is that you minimize the axes of rotation when you learn. You'll probably naturally start to do it more on your side as you get better. Pushing off on your belly, seems like a lot of twisting necessary pull that off.

"pretty much" I don't mean millisecond same, but nothing so drastic as to warrant gasping at the difference.

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Tiger for Life -- War Eagle!

you should be pushing off completely on your back. start rolling onto your stomach as soon as you are off the wall.

but wouldnt it create less drag if you push off on your side ?

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

I've tried both ways, and I think she nailed it.

Because when you do flips you wind up swimming more and 'breaking' less.

There is no rule that say you have to do flip-turns with a super hard kick, 8 dolphins, and go back to freestyle halfway down the pool. You can immediately start freestyling right after the flip.

So - if you have 1 hour to swim and do flip turns versus open (and don't stay submerged), you will have done more strokes in that hour and maitained a higher HR that hour than if you had done open turns.

Copy?

 I regard people I see doing open turns about the same way I regard people wearing jeans when they're skiing/snowboarding.[/reply]

So - if you have 1 hour to swim and do flip turns versus open (and don't stay submerged), you will have done more strokes in that hour and maitained a higher HR that hour than if you had done open turns.

Serious question - how will you have done more strokes in that hour?

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Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

[/reply]
[grins]

As long as you've chosen to preserve my post for posterity, allow me to expound...

How I regard both groups is "I welcome you with open arms and hope you are enjoying yourself. Please check back when you decide to get serious about this activity."

:)

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

I don't see why it would create more drag, either way you will be underwater in a streamline. The fastest way to flip is going to be straight over from front to back. One of the biggest problems I see in kids learning to do flip turns (or adults for that matter) is wasting time turning on the wall instead of using the time you will already have to rotate in your underwater streamline push-off.

A good drill to practice is to go from regular freestyle into your turn then push off in a streamline on your back. After you've done this a few times and get comfortable doing it, work in the rotation to your stomach and into your regular freestyle stroke.

Now wait a second...

Are you open-turners also forgoing a good push-off and streamline so you can start stroking immediately?

Given the same push-off and streamline, the flip-turner will be showered, dressed, and hitting on the front desk girls before the open-turner is done with his/her workout.

If the open-turner has already got 3 strokes in before he/she gets to the flags (!), then yes, you've found a way to squeeze more strokes into the same yardage. Except now, by the time you've finished your workout, the flip-turner will be halfway back to work.

Given a fixed amount of time in the pool, the flip-turner will get more yardage (or meterage?) and more strokes by virtue of the added distance.

If you've got all day to spend in the pool and view Number of Strokes as your metric for improvement, knock yourselves out and open-turn-no-streamline your way to nirvana!

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

I'd agree with most of the posters in favor of doing flip-turns, especially if you work with a group. Triathletes can have a bad rep as far as being primadonnas (sometimes well deserved). If you really can't or don't want to do flip turns, then don't. Are you missing out on some kind of magical training benefit...probably not. Are you setting yourself out as someone who is doing their own thing, regardless of what the group is doing...maybe.

I'd tend to align myself with Tom Ps stance that I'm trying to be as good as I can in each sport on its own, then fold those together and be the best triathlete I can. I really believe that's a better approach than focusing solely on being a triathlete. Do I suck at butterfly and groan when it's called for at masters? You bet. But I'd much prefer to swim with a group who will push me, encourage me, swim with me and make me better than I will on my own, so I suck it up and do my best.

Mike

<quote> and hitting on the front desk girls </quote>

aah, seems like this one convinced them all. Every one is doing flipturns now...

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

This whole argument sounds like

-"I can put out more watts, so I'm faster" Yet, the aero position sucks, so they don't go as fast

OR

-"I can run fast over such and such distance, but my form sucks and I fall off after 2 miles"

Flip turns, do them or not, BUT they will help your swimming. You will learn proper streamlining off the wall, breath control and proper kicking/dolphin and flutter off the wall.

Eric

Because flips are faster than open.

I am a noob. I swim about 2:00/100m at a HIM-ish pace doing open turns. That is a pretty pathetic time. I had previously not learned how to perform a flip turn properly. This thread has convinced me to do flip turns.

I am heading out to go swimming right now. I will learn how to do flip turns. I will be faster. I will impress many women. I will report back as to how it goes.

Hi,

Push off on back at a 5-10 degree downward push (only in a tank deeper than 2M), rotate at even pace clockwise or anti-clockwise so that when you get within 1 ft of the surface you are on your side. At that point begin your breakout stroke with the deep arm. Breakout, 2 strokes breath.

thanks, so the first stroke is actually performed underwater ?

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

do you want to continue to swim like a triathlete, or do you want to swim like a swimmer? if the latter is your goal, then do the turns. if you want to get better, then do the turns. if you want to be happy swimming 1:30+/100 for a 500 for the rest of your life, then swim like a triathlete.

i have been swimming for 2.4 years and more or less have been stuck at this pace for a while. i have used every excuse not to flip turn but this statement hit home and today i converted i now flip turn thanks

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ken
trying to act like a runner

I do them only during warmup, after that I'm too tired. I wish I could do them on a consistant basis but when I tire it takes longer to flip and I sink, not cool when I'm taxed for oxygen. I have made a goal to do 2 more at each practice, I am the only one at masters that does open end turns. I truly believe they help overall fitness of core and give a solid pushoff to continue previous speed going into turn.

To reply to:

if you want to be happy swimming 1:30+/100 for a 500 for the rest of your life, then swim like a triathlete.

Well at 48, with limited time training, (during IM training, 10,000 avg for 10 weeks, plus more or less sometimes). 7:30 per 500 is pretty good. My cruising time fo a 500 is 7:45 and I have done my last 2 IM'S in 1:00:12 and 1:00:21. My masters leader, Mike Burton, 3 Olympic golds, told me the only way I will get faster is to put in swimmer yardage in for a period of time. I do not have that. Yes I do open turns.............Oh at 48, I swim like a triathlete. I do not have the time to do yardage every day. That is how I would improve, not flip turns..............................Though I agree if I want to be a pure swimmer I need to do them. Kenney

I went to the pool. I did flip turns for the first time. I hit the bottom of the pool once. I had a few good flip turns. I was slightly faster, but much more out of breath. It was a good experiment. I impressed many women*. I will practice my flip turns, and continue to do them in the future.

Thanks, Flip Turn Thread!

here is the answer you've been waiting for:

in a normal pool, there is nothing much about doing flip turns that makes your swim training more effective.

but there is a lot about learning flip turns that makes your swim training quite a bit more effective.

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Where would you want to swim ?

Yes, do flip turns. They add to the aerobic challenge of the swim. Consider them the the hill training of swimming.

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******************************************
Proud to post only occasionally.

http://tribomber.wordpress.com

Interesting post. I am wondering how many people that don' t do flip turns, don't because they can't...most people I have met that don't do them, actually would like to, but seek a reason for not having to learn the technique. I train with a couple marathon swimmers and they both do flip turns claiming they can't develop any rhythm by turning any other way.

Hi,

I am faster in the years when I maximize pool swimming. Less fast when I spent more time swimming open water at the expense of structured interval pool time. I try and swim between 4 and 8 sessions per week, depending on time of year and racing schedule. Winter (now) I am in the pool 7-8 times per week. I still bike/run/lift, but the balance is skewed toward swim/run. Lift is 3rd bike is 4th (for now).

Come March/April (Note, I am wet Washington State, USA) I start to move the balance toward bike/run, with swim a close 3rd and weights dropping to 2-3x/week, with emphasis on funtional core strength as a goal.

In June I begin to swim open water 1x every one or 2 weeks. Staying in the pool with the team the rest of the time. For most of the summer, I use actual races to be my open water swims.

That's just me. Your results may vary.

tom

Yes,

Another person who "Gets It", Be the best you can at all 3, then be a triathlete. Not6 a triathlete as a way to hide behind the veil of mediocraty.

awesome!

tp

Hi,

The first arm pull is activated while you are nearing breakout, the arm pulls from the catch, past the body and exits the water for the recovery at the moment of breakout.

One strokes in the water and recovers above the water.

tp

Not to sidetrack, but one of the coolest early tri memories I have is coming back to IMC in 87 after being the youngest finisher in 86 (at 19) and seeing the highlights from the 86 race that you won, set to "Space Oddity". Every time I hear that song, I think about my first IM. Nice to see you have kept going. I took a 15 year break for work/family/laziness, but am getting back on the bus and am really enjoying working my way back into shape.

Mike

WOW.

I didn't expect such a response. That took me awhile to go through...

Anyway, I'd like to note a quick thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. This has been most helpful !!

There seems to be an awful lot of generalizing in this thread so I'll add this just to show there are exceptions to the rule that " all good triathlete swimmers do flip turns". I have a friend that qualified for Kona, as a Pro, and never flip turns because he can't! Unbeleivable ,eh!

Greg.

"I went to the pool. I did flip turns for the first time. I hit the bottom of the pool once. I had a few good flip turns. I was slightly faster, but much more out of breath. It was a good experiment. I impressed many women*. I will practice my flip turns, and continue to do them in the future."

In one of my first triathlons, there was a pool swim of 250 yds. I can do flip turns, but when I am swimming hard, I sometimes hesitate on when to flip and just get to the wall, and end up doing an open turn. I realize that this is just my mind's way of tricking me into getting that rest when you do an open turn. Anyways, in the race, I was psyching myself up to do all flip turns (all 9 of them). I charged down the lane for my first 25 yds under the watchful eye of the 100 or so nervous people waiting to start. As I neared the wall, I was all pumped, and did a nearly perfect flip, and then pushed hard enough to get 1/2 way down the lane. Only problem was that when I got to full extension, my toes barely touched the wall and I was dead in the water...I did open turns for the rest of the race.

Next year, I'm doing all flip turns and actually pushing off. Baby steps...

Ok here goes.

Pro's for touch turns.
You get an extra breath at each turn.
You get to check out the babe / stud on the pool side.

Cons for touch turns
You don't use these in races
You STOP at each end ( open water swimming you keep moving )
You have to find the end of the pool to turn properly.
When you start getting tired your turns get slower and slower
Your losing time on the other swimmers who flip turn. ( you maybe a faster swimmer than them but touch turning is slower )

Pro's for flip turning ( rear name Tumble turns )
No stopping at the turn ( in and out )
gives you a continuous swim .
will put you in oxygen debt ( just like in a race situation when you get a wave in the face when you try to breathe )
Just another skill that you will have acquired.
Not losing time on the turn to slower swimmers who FT.

Cons for Tumble turning
Not getting that extra breath at the end of each 25 / 50 mtrs
Are hard to learn but worth the effort ( in my humble opinion )
You cannot use these during an open water swim

And before anybody takes offense to what I have written and wonders at what my great/ lack of knowledge on the subject is .

I train using tumble turns , never touch turns while doing front crawl.

swimming ability is sub 50 mins for IM swm.

Sub 20 mins for Olympic tri swims.

Holding back factor to my swimming . ME I am lazy and don't train.

......usually do flip turns but sometimes throw
in "open turns" just to aggravate the masters
folks!

That's interesting Tom,

The change of balance makes sense from a weather standpoint, living in Ontario I understand, maybe there is not as big a specificity for swimming compared to biking and running.

Thanks for the feedback.
Andrew

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C'mon legs run faster!
Being fast on a crappy bike is cool
Fueled by Guinness, Tuborg, Anchor Steam and Creemore Springs

I don't think it matters much. I've gotten better with them after practicing for a week but do not bother. I instead do a horizontal pivot before I hit the wall and push off. The timing works out similarly.

Nice summary. Now if someone can just remember your post the next time this comes up and link to it early!

Nope. btw I am a proponent of doing flip turns, but there is no disguising the fact that overall you cover a set distance faster with turns (flip or otherwise).
Simply check the world records for the short and long course for equivalent distances. The clearest example is in the 50m where you have Popov's 21.64 in the 50m pool (no turns) and Nystrand's 20.93 in the 25m pool (1 turn). The Long course 50m WR is 3.4% slower. Case closed.

However saying that a MOP/BOPer is still likely to do the majority of the IM swim courses faster than they could do 3800m in a 50m pool.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

Nice troll but no that is not 3%.

Well, that makes things simpler for me. I was afraid to try a flip turn at the pool where I train because I thought the swimmers would laugh if it looked awkward. ("Look at her, she's trying to pass herself off as a swimmer.") Since it sounds my open turns already identify me as someone who's not a "real" swimmer, I suppose the swimmers would view my clumsy flip turns as par for the course.

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"Real winners aren't content with yesterday's victories"

Ian,

The question still remains for me, how does flip turning turn me into a better open water swimmer? I understand getting a breathe at the end of the lane might give a bit of a break. But beyond that, I am not sold. All the streamline talk of pushing off the wall is just foo foo juice for the ears. If I am not streamlined for the other 20m of the pool, being streamlined out of the flip turn isn't exactly a mind blowing technique breakthrough that is going to save me minutes on my stroke. I've always been a slower pool swimmer due to open turns, I'm cool with that. My ego has accepted that. I think its pretty funny seeing fellow swimmers looking down at me.

But the comment about wearing jeans while skiing, that might make me do flip turns no matter what. I almost pissed myself when I read that.

The question still remains for me, how does flip turning turn me into a better open water swimmer? you said it the breath at the wall. yesterday i became a flip turner, now normally i can do a 500 in 7.40-7.45 crusing so thats about 6.10-6.25 for a 400. today was day 2 and i did a 400 towards the end of my workout and came in at 6.59 and was beat, out of breath and really tired. now when this new habit becomes easier i will really be swimming straight thru a set, not getting ANY rest between 25's and will be stronger for swimming 1500 yards in the open water where you get no rest at the wall. it might be only 1 minute faster but if i use less energy that just gives me more matches to burn later

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ken
trying to act like a runner

keep it up. you will certainly get fitter. eventually you will get faster too!

I'm a troll?

From your troll-like post:

"What a crock of slowtwitch shit. I must've missed that survey. I've been to Kona, I swim in the top 3% at IM's, top 15% at Hawaii. Never kick turn, never will. When I do an open turn, I like to barely touch off the wall. That way, I get more swimming done and less gliding."

I was replying to your claim of being a top 3% swimmer. Your 1:01 is impressive but don't go off acting like you're some awesome swimmer cuz you don't do flip turns.

Please show us your top 3% IM swims.

jaretj

No...You're a troll. Admit it. He didn't say top 3% of what group. OY!

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

t daddy
I'm not looking down on you, I (like anyone who grew up around a pool) just don't understand why you wouldn't do them if you can. This whole thread boggles my mind...but it's fun!

My point about flip turns making you a better open water swimmer is simply that it will allow you to train with better people. Nothing more, nothing less. The triathletes around here who make the biggest improvements in their swimming are the ones who work their tails off so that they are able to hang with swim team (which ever group that may be: varsity, club, masters, etc.) and do things swim teams do even if it's not absolutely specific to swimming in a lake.

If you're just starting out with swimming, learning flip turns should be low on your priority list, if you're already proficient flip turns are part of the craft.

I agree with that. I think I am just irked that the perception of one who doesn't do a flip turn can't be fast. Is there a sense of elitism on ST? Just a little but thanks for your view.

Thanks Bernie. Jaret, please read my 1st post. If I was 3% at Hawaii, I probably wouldn't be sitting at my computer getting my panties in a bind over flip turns. I'd be doing flip turns already ;)

You're right...I stand corrected :P

jaretj

I typically swim about a 1:15 - 1:20 100/yd pace for say a 500 - it varies. I don't flip-turn because it makes me sick (severe nausea). I can open turn as fast (true maybe not as efficient) as those who swim with me.

So do I "suck at swimming"?

I did, as a matter of fact I quoted it.

Re-read my post, I never said you were top 3% at Hawaii

jaretj

You're right...I stand corrected :P

Now, if I could only get my wife and kids to see it!

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

I can open turn as fast (true maybe not as efficient) as those who swim with me.

So do I "suck at swimming"?


Not compared to those who swim with you.

You know your wife is allways right :)

Please ask her if triathletes should do flip turns in training. Since I know her old swim teacher, maybe I should ask her too :)

jaretj

You know your wife is allways right :)

Don't I know it!

Please ask her if triathletes should do flip turns in training. Since I know her old swim teacher, maybe I should ask her too :)

I'll ask, but I'm pretty sure I know her answer. For the last couple of years, her idea of flip turning in the pool has had something to do with the chaise float and equalizing the sun exposure for the summer tan. She has raced duathlons exclusively since the second year, which is funny considering she hates running almost as much as she hates swimming!

You might have better luck at getting an answer that is accurate.

For what it's worth, I got in the pool for the first time since August today. God, that sucked. I am going to pretend that I swim again Friday morning.

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

Yes, you suck. ;-)

My point is that people who want to get fast, do the things necessary to get fast. It's a mental thing, not a physical thing.

There are exceptions to every rule... I can understand that some people get sick when doing a flip turn. Nothing wrong with that.
Out of curiosity.. do you know why you get sick? Simple motion sickness, or a medical condition?

Jill...I agree with all of your reasons PLUS i was always scratching up my wedding ring on the side of the pool!
I also find that flip turns just help my continuity of my workout, prevent me from hanging out on the wall and improves my overall breathing during a set. Because they are faster I know that I am more productive during my workouts when time is limited.

So are you saying that if we do flip turns in an outdoor pool then we can even our tan by comming off the wall on our back to get more sun exposure on our front using the pool water as magnification medium?

Silly me, I didn't think of that before :)

jaretj

Outdoor pool? Work in a backstroke set!

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

Not sure. I overheard my coach talking to the Dr. during my VO2 test a couple of months ago about my flip-turn nausea. Whilst running so hard that I was about to collapse during the test I heard the Dr. say that a flip-turn like that can cause imbalances or rapid changes in blood pressure in some people - resulting symptom is nausea. The part I know I heard for sure is when she asked, "can this be resolved" and the Dr. said "No".

They make me sick - deathly ill - so I don't do them. And I'm at peace with that.

I repeat, "pretty much" however I guess pretty much for swimming was a bit general, so I apologize. But basically stating that flipturning will not make MOP or BOP THAT much faster... I didn't mean to get in that much of a discussion. I am a FOP swimmer.... MOP for bike, and b/w Front and mid for the run, but have been swimming nearly my entire life. When I was competing strictly pool I didn't pay that much attention to differences in my 50m split for 100m in short course vs. long course. Maybe I should have!! HA!

If I weren't learning something new everyday, I'd be dead, so thanks for the example and math on the % slower.

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Tiger for Life -- War Eagle!

Why? Why do anything in the pool?
I walked onto the the pool deck at California Luthern University (CLU) on Monday. The USA Olympic Water Polo Team had begun trainng there for the upcoming 2008 games. The team was doing 25yd drill sprints on 20 seconds--- lots and lots of sprinting. They were doing drills of butterfly with flutter kick---yes, fly arms with freestyle leg kicking. I asked the assistant coach who was nearby why that? He replied 'makes you tough'. Fly arms flutter kick!

So if you are wondering why you should do flip turns and what that can do for your swimming, I suggest: Do your flip turns, and get tough!

not on the bike

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Thank you. I will now be doing flip turns to the best of my ability.

Wow!! 8 pages of comments on flip turns. I guess since everyone else has chimed in, I shouldn't feel bad about throwing in a few random comments.

• One of this years goals is to learn to swim like a swimmer -- flip turns, kick sets, IM sets, etc.
• I'm no where near podium level for triathlons -- for oly distance I need to be about 15 minutes faster and 15 years older. For people like me it just doesn't make sense to narrowly focus on training for triathlon races. If the training itself doesn't come with some tangible reward I won't be motivated to get up at 5AM to do it. I need that sense of accomplishment that comes from learning a new skill, beating a time on a clock, moving up a lane, etc.
• With this perspective I just don't relate to the idea of purposely doing slower turns in a pool just so that you can simulate open water swimming.
• For the same reason I don't get why some people commit to breathing every three strokes on their main sets when every two is faster. (I alternate breathing side on each length. Always breathe to the side of the faster lane -- more motivation.) I guess that's for a different thread though.
• I still do mostly open turns in master's workouts. It's really hard to wean myself off of that extra breath, and I'm not confident enough with the flips to keep from interrupting lane mates, and ending up on the "Strange Denizens of the Pool" thread.
  
• Open turns don't have to be slow. I beat a lot of flip turners off the wall in my neighboring lanes. The key is to swim all the way to the wall and get a strong streamlined push off. I'm guessing that it's the same key for flip turns, but I don't have the experience to back it up. Hopefully by the end of the year I will have the experience and this comment will be moot for me.
• My totally unscientific study of people in my master's group says that the break point that divides the flip turners in the faster lanes from the open turners in the slower lanes is 1:35/100yd(sc). Guess where I am exactly.

John

I agree with everything you said about how important they are, etc. I question the first sentence above, in that it could very well be that people like me (who just can't seem to ever do them primarily because of needing to breathe, despite SERIOUS dedication to it) were weeded out from every becoming swimmers because of that. I don't know that lung capacity "develops".

On the second point, I hadn't heard that open turns were nasty for shoulders. Since mine are always complaining, what's the issue and is there a way to avoid it (other than flip turns)?

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

My understanding is that you should avoid flipturns if you have back issues.

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COtrimom

I agree. Every time I see a trigeek swimming at the pool and not doing flip turns, I say to my self....Chooch.

I'm certainly not a great flip turner. In fact I've just looked at the article on Beginner Triathlete on Flip turns and realised that I'm doing them completely wrong anyway. (I actually touch the wall with 1 hand as I'm doing the turn and also I start to twist way too early). Neevertheless we did our club 1500m early season time trial on Tuesday night and I was shooting for 25 minutes. Was doing alright till about 1100 meters, pretty much hitting 1m40 per lap consistently. Then I got out of breath a bit and thought I'd skip a few flip turns. I threw in 2x 1m45s and screwed up my target. I recovered a bit on the last two laps and went back to the flip turns, but the damage was done. 25m03. :-(

I'm lucky in that I have a 50m pool that a regularly train in. However sometimes I go to a 25m pool and whenever I time myself it just seems ridiculously fast. More turns = faster, flip turns = even faster.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

Jack, do you get dizzy while swimming in general? As a kid I would get horribly dizzy from swimming laps, I never swam competitively then but swam a lot with friends. Wasn't until my adult years due to some health issues found out I have a horribly screwed up equilibrium and discovered that the flushing of water in and out of my ears when turning my head to breathe caused severe vertigo. I have to swim with good ear plugs and the problem is solved.

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A friend will give you an alibi, a best friend will help you burn the body.

Best post in this thread, IMHO.

Forgive me if posting on this thread brings back any bad memories! But... I have an N=1 account to add to the thread in the PRO-flipturn camp.

I'm an accomplished flip turner from competitive days. Injured abdomen prevented doing flip turns or dolphin kicks for a few months - during that time I became an accomplished open turner - this was a painful journey after 30+ years of flip turning, but there was really no other option so I became pretty good at open turns, despite having excellent flip turning skills. Now the abs are healed enough to swim "normally" again and it took a couple of weeks of regular swimming to get back into the flip turn groove.

What I learned: Flip turns are harder. No question about it. The dolphin kicks are tiring, the oxygen debt is a big deal, it takes more energy than a non-flip turn overall. Even though I had progressed to pretty fast open turns, there was always an extra breath, and an occaissional conscious "mini-break" on some hard sets that just isn't possible when doing flip turns. My biggest impression - actual swim distance per length (LCM) was probably greater for open turns, because I was swimming 45 meters instead of the 40 meters possible with good flips + dolphining -but I felt the open turns made a 500m swim into 10x50m, while the flip turns allowed a "continuous" 500m. So, if they are harder and allow you to swim more continuously, they should be superior for any swim training, including triathlon.

Sorry if this just recapitulates conclusions from previous posts on the thread.

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some days you're the windshield some days the bug

Only on ST could we have a 192-post thread on flip turns...

;-)

Since I started doing proper flip turns, the hotties have been throwing it at me like Nolan Ryan.

It worked for me! It can work for you, too!

Learn and do flip turns.

That said. As a former college swimmer with a love of flip turns (I think I might actually have rested a bit on them) I stopped doing flip turns 6 months ago because of back pain. I was bored out of my mind when I swam but I think it kept me aggressive lap after lap because I had to make up my loss to keep up with the fast kids.

You don't need to do flip turns to go fast. I didn't lose a spot this summer in the swim leg of my races.

As the OP of this post 9 months, 195 posts and 190,000 yds ago, I can say definitively that…[/url] I have no idea whether flip turns have helped me or not.

The facts are:
- I started doing flip turns a few days after this thread started
- I was probably a 30min swimmer for the oly leg.
- I am now a 25-26 min oly leg swimmer.
- I’ve swum pretty consistently 3x a week for the past 9 months

Too many variables to attribute my improvement to flipturns, but it sure does make me feel cooler.

Yes, and then you will be able to join Masters workouts which will surprisingly make you a faster triathlete. (even though I don't agree many of the workouts are the best 4k open water prep).

It will also lead you to further perversions such as backstroke which will reinforce body position and rotation + core, breaststroke which will reinforce, uhhh....?. And the butterfly which is useful only for impressing women*.

S.

* Dear instructors, I can bring cash or PayPal details

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