So - if you have 1 hour to swim and do flip turns versus open (and don't stay submerged), you will have done more strokes in that hour and maitained a higher HR that hour than if you had done open turns.

Serious question - how will you have done more strokes in that hour?

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Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

[/reply]
[grins]

As long as you've chosen to preserve my post for posterity, allow me to expound...

How I regard both groups is "I welcome you with open arms and hope you are enjoying yourself. Please check back when you decide to get serious about this activity."

:)

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

I don't see why it would create more drag, either way you will be underwater in a streamline. The fastest way to flip is going to be straight over from front to back. One of the biggest problems I see in kids learning to do flip turns (or adults for that matter) is wasting time turning on the wall instead of using the time you will already have to rotate in your underwater streamline push-off.

A good drill to practice is to go from regular freestyle into your turn then push off in a streamline on your back. After you've done this a few times and get comfortable doing it, work in the rotation to your stomach and into your regular freestyle stroke.

Now wait a second...

Are you open-turners also forgoing a good push-off and streamline so you can start stroking immediately?

Given the same push-off and streamline, the flip-turner will be showered, dressed, and hitting on the front desk girls before the open-turner is done with his/her workout.

If the open-turner has already got 3 strokes in before he/she gets to the flags (!), then yes, you've found a way to squeeze more strokes into the same yardage. Except now, by the time you've finished your workout, the flip-turner will be halfway back to work.

Given a fixed amount of time in the pool, the flip-turner will get more yardage (or meterage?) and more strokes by virtue of the added distance.

If you've got all day to spend in the pool and view Number of Strokes as your metric for improvement, knock yourselves out and open-turn-no-streamline your way to nirvana!

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

I'd agree with most of the posters in favor of doing flip-turns, especially if you work with a group. Triathletes can have a bad rep as far as being primadonnas (sometimes well deserved). If you really can't or don't want to do flip turns, then don't. Are you missing out on some kind of magical training benefit...probably not. Are you setting yourself out as someone who is doing their own thing, regardless of what the group is doing...maybe.

I'd tend to align myself with Tom Ps stance that I'm trying to be as good as I can in each sport on its own, then fold those together and be the best triathlete I can. I really believe that's a better approach than focusing solely on being a triathlete. Do I suck at butterfly and groan when it's called for at masters? You bet. But I'd much prefer to swim with a group who will push me, encourage me, swim with me and make me better than I will on my own, so I suck it up and do my best.

Mike

<quote> and hitting on the front desk girls </quote>

aah, seems like this one convinced them all. Every one is doing flipturns now...

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

This whole argument sounds like

-"I can put out more watts, so I'm faster" Yet, the aero position sucks, so they don't go as fast

OR

-"I can run fast over such and such distance, but my form sucks and I fall off after 2 miles"

Flip turns, do them or not, BUT they will help your swimming. You will learn proper streamlining off the wall, breath control and proper kicking/dolphin and flutter off the wall.

Eric

Because flips are faster than open.

I am a noob. I swim about 2:00/100m at a HIM-ish pace doing open turns. That is a pretty pathetic time. I had previously not learned how to perform a flip turn properly. This thread has convinced me to do flip turns.

I am heading out to go swimming right now. I will learn how to do flip turns. I will be faster. I will impress many women. I will report back as to how it goes.

Hi,

Push off on back at a 5-10 degree downward push (only in a tank deeper than 2M), rotate at even pace clockwise or anti-clockwise so that when you get within 1 ft of the surface you are on your side. At that point begin your breakout stroke with the deep arm. Breakout, 2 strokes breath.

thanks, so the first stroke is actually performed underwater ?

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

do you want to continue to swim like a triathlete, or do you want to swim like a swimmer? if the latter is your goal, then do the turns. if you want to get better, then do the turns. if you want to be happy swimming 1:30+/100 for a 500 for the rest of your life, then swim like a triathlete.

i have been swimming for 2.4 years and more or less have been stuck at this pace for a while. i have used every excuse not to flip turn but this statement hit home and today i converted i now flip turn thanks

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ken
trying to act like a runner

I do them only during warmup, after that I'm too tired. I wish I could do them on a consistant basis but when I tire it takes longer to flip and I sink, not cool when I'm taxed for oxygen. I have made a goal to do 2 more at each practice, I am the only one at masters that does open end turns. I truly believe they help overall fitness of core and give a solid pushoff to continue previous speed going into turn.

To reply to:

if you want to be happy swimming 1:30+/100 for a 500 for the rest of your life, then swim like a triathlete.

Well at 48, with limited time training, (during IM training, 10,000 avg for 10 weeks, plus more or less sometimes). 7:30 per 500 is pretty good. My cruising time fo a 500 is 7:45 and I have done my last 2 IM'S in 1:00:12 and 1:00:21. My masters leader, Mike Burton, 3 Olympic golds, told me the only way I will get faster is to put in swimmer yardage in for a period of time. I do not have that. Yes I do open turns.............Oh at 48, I swim like a triathlete. I do not have the time to do yardage every day. That is how I would improve, not flip turns..............................Though I agree if I want to be a pure swimmer I need to do them. Kenney

I went to the pool. I did flip turns for the first time. I hit the bottom of the pool once. I had a few good flip turns. I was slightly faster, but much more out of breath. It was a good experiment. I impressed many women*. I will practice my flip turns, and continue to do them in the future.

Thanks, Flip Turn Thread!

here is the answer you've been waiting for:

in a normal pool, there is nothing much about doing flip turns that makes your swim training more effective.

but there is a lot about learning flip turns that makes your swim training quite a bit more effective.

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Where would you want to swim ?

Yes, do flip turns. They add to the aerobic challenge of the swim. Consider them the the hill training of swimming.

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******************************************
Proud to post only occasionally.

http://tribomber.wordpress.com

Interesting post. I am wondering how many people that don' t do flip turns, don't because they can't...most people I have met that don't do them, actually would like to, but seek a reason for not having to learn the technique. I train with a couple marathon swimmers and they both do flip turns claiming they can't develop any rhythm by turning any other way.

Hi,

I am faster in the years when I maximize pool swimming. Less fast when I spent more time swimming open water at the expense of structured interval pool time. I try and swim between 4 and 8 sessions per week, depending on time of year and racing schedule. Winter (now) I am in the pool 7-8 times per week. I still bike/run/lift, but the balance is skewed toward swim/run. Lift is 3rd bike is 4th (for now).

Come March/April (Note, I am wet Washington State, USA) I start to move the balance toward bike/run, with swim a close 3rd and weights dropping to 2-3x/week, with emphasis on funtional core strength as a goal.

In June I begin to swim open water 1x every one or 2 weeks. Staying in the pool with the team the rest of the time. For most of the summer, I use actual races to be my open water swims.

That's just me. Your results may vary.

tom

Yes,

Another person who "Gets It", Be the best you can at all 3, then be a triathlete. Not6 a triathlete as a way to hide behind the veil of mediocraty.

awesome!

tp

Hi,

The first arm pull is activated while you are nearing breakout, the arm pulls from the catch, past the body and exits the water for the recovery at the moment of breakout.

One strokes in the water and recovers above the water.

tp

Not to sidetrack, but one of the coolest early tri memories I have is coming back to IMC in 87 after being the youngest finisher in 86 (at 19) and seeing the highlights from the 86 race that you won, set to "Space Oddity". Every time I hear that song, I think about my first IM. Nice to see you have kept going. I took a 15 year break for work/family/laziness, but am getting back on the bus and am really enjoying working my way back into shape.

Mike

WOW.

I didn't expect such a response. That took me awhile to go through...

Anyway, I'd like to note a quick thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. This has been most helpful !!

There seems to be an awful lot of generalizing in this thread so I'll add this just to show there are exceptions to the rule that " all good triathlete swimmers do flip turns". I have a friend that qualified for Kona, as a Pro, and never flip turns because he can't! Unbeleivable ,eh!

Greg.