BTW are you swimming at Pikes swim club, or manitou springs? OTC?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The speed will be a lot harder to get at than the endurance, although that’ll take some time too. If he doesn’t have the speed to go out with the front pack then his “endurance” isn’t going to catch him up later. He needs to focus on getting a faster 200/400. You could also tell since his splits were 32/34/1:06 for a 2:12, he doesn’t have a lot of speed just endurance. There’s always a compromise when training for speed or endurance, you sacrifice one to get the other. If he focused more on speed, he might be able to get what he needs and it would improve his technique - although I could guess from the way he’s moving in the water that he’s doing too much bike/run. At the speeds he’ll need to go, technique becomes more impactful than fitness.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I guess that makes sense, but at the same time, he should be able to swim with decent technique at 1:08 pace or so. Therefore he likely wouldn't be sabatoging his swimming by doing longer sets at that pace. And he could still work on the speed as well. Sure, it would be best to be able to open up in 60sec pace for a few hundreds and then settle into 1:10s, but if given the choice between being able to swim a 2:00 200 or a 11:30 1000, the latter is going to lose him way less time in real races.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I was surprised by his emotions. Glad to see though.

Lol. Try the downtown YMCA with the 6 lane 82 degree pool. Currently the closet and cheapest option for us. We're very actively looking to buy a house which in this market is just an absolute blast (kill me), so we'll see where we end up and what pool is closest. I talked to Justin Trolle on the phone so we'll pop in for some masters at some point.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Happy to have a pool to swim in, but the outdoor poll at Rally could use a cleaning. Leaves on the bottom of the pool, a few floating band-aids, etc. Also, in the winter they should be a bit more vigilant with ice on the deck around the pool.

The endurance piece is easier to get once you’ve got a decent stroke. Speed is a lot harder to develop. In swimming, a 200/400 swimmer isn’t a sprinter they’re considered mid-distance. The 400 swimmers are starting to become more and more competitive at the 10k because they have speed and endurance. The big equalizer for triathletes who didn’t come from a swim background is the draft. The key piece then becomes can you develop enough speed to go out with the front pack, not blow up and hang on. The first male to the first buoy in Kona is routinely 1:11/100m. If you take into account it’s an open water start and no walls that put it’s around 1:06-1:08/100m equivalent effort. For easier comparison to what Sam just did, that’s about a minute to just under a minute for the first 100 yards. At those speeds (about 1.7 yards a sec) Sam (1.5 yards/sec) by the end of the first 100 he would already be 1.2 yards back. By the end of the first 200, he’s more than a body length back and outside the effective draft. That’s the point where you see that quick gap form from one pack to the next.

Hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Are all pros this bad at swimming? Does he not know about USRPT?

I’ll never understand why folks won’t just commit to a full season of swimming with a masters team.

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Strava

I don't get why it's so taboo for a pro to show bravado and talk a bit of smack. When athletes are too concerned about upsetting people to call each other out the sport gets boring. This sport needs people like Sam Long to keep it interesting. It needs rivalries. Listen to the MX Endurance podcast with Sam and he explains that the PTO asked him to throw banter at Gustav because no one else would. Without

If you can throw down a 47 minute 40k, you're allowed a little bravado. Even if you haven't 100% figured out swimming fast in your first few years.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Hell yeah he can ride, and his run ain't bad. So he needs to work on the swim, but he's still winning races despite his weakness. Imagine if the pros refused to talk big until they'd won Kona. Imagine how boring the story of triathlon would be.

He’s a bit awkward/goofy, but his videos are entertaining. He’s 7 years younger than Lionel
So he’s got a bigger head start to get his swim where it needs to be when he hits is prime years.

It’s interesting to see age groupers with swim backgrounds criticize those who are fast. Perhaps cyclists are not the most arrogant snobs out there

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Matt

But Lionel has been competing for 8 years trying to work on his swim.

I may be wrong, believe Sam has been swimming faster at a given age than Lionel so he has a bit smaller gap to make up (albeit still large). And there have been arguing until people are blue in the face around here whether Lionel’s approach to faster swimming during that time period was the “right” approach

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Matt

And sam is still coming out of the water with lionel...

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

LS has probaly "wasted" 6 of those 8 years by swimming alone w/ online workouts and very little coaching feedback likely based on his timeline and videos and such.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Doing things alone made him a world class bike-runner. With such success in that ideology, its no surprise he has pursued swimming similarly. He has known for years the flaw in his swim training, but it goes against who he is and how he mentally attacks things. Its almost unfortunate that he hasn't been able to find success in his swim using a similar approach. It just shows how deeply technically complex swimming really is

Edit sorry thought this was the ls thread no hijack

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Strava

Yes and so Sam Long has a huge head start if he learns from the very mistakes from his main rival currently. That's why I hope beyond hope that while he's doing all these squad swims he's actually getting stroke development help from the on deck coach. I assume he is based on the videos continuing to showcase that swim coach.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That’s my point. The presumption of improvement because he is younger is flawed. But, I hope he does!

YES. So many bad streamlines and turns do I see in these videos with pros who can't swim. This goes back to 'learning to move through the water' that young kids master by racing each other in practice everyday doing 'goofy' stuff like dolphin dives, sculling, drills, etc. This is the feel that bad swimmers don't have; the feel for when your technique is slowing you down as well as producing propulsion from the catch.

There was some talk in there of Sam's feet splaying out-- definitely not a good thing-- he should get some video analysis of his head position during a breath, that is a likely cause that forces your feet to splay out as a counter balance. Effortless swimming on youtube has a video about this I think.

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Matt Russell was doing this in Sarasota before he moved. I think it helps a lot, more so than swimming with other pro triathletes. Why? You can watch people who have been swimming for their entire lives to see what their stroke looks like, etc. That's super important in swimming, obviously.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

I also think Master's teams help stop some of the horrible practice sets/habits of triathletes. Those 3X1000 or 6x500 sets where all they do is practice slapping the water with an inefficient stroke.

I had never been exposed to triathlete swim habits until Covid forced to me to swim solo at the Y. Its been eye opening.

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Strava

Effortless swimming has awesome videos and the guy does really good swim video analysis! If I was Sam would send his current video and also some underwater video to him.

There's major flaws in swim stroke I have played the video at a very low speed on youtube at 0.25 playback speed, not great but still workable.

Just to point out a few things, and swim experts here correct me if I'm wrong...

- Breathing (way too long), perhaps not exhaling under water (underwater footage would confirm that...) look at footage 6:20-6:23 stop around 6:23 his left hand is about to enter the water and his head is still on the side, right arm elbow dropped... what he does compensate with a big left kick... more than often when you see a swimmer with a big kick splashing on one side is because he's trying to mask a flaw. (lost is hold on the water)

- This is perhaps the best footage to show where things are totally out of sync...
Start the footage at 6:57 but than run image by image until 6:59... pause at 6:59... his right hand is aligned with his left shoulder (crossing over big time)
6:58 legs a spread a part creating a lot of drag, left leg kick out of sync with kicking at the same of left arm.

7:03-7:05 - totally on his side (90 degrees) should be maximum at 40-45 degrees... 7:04 body misalignment (hips on the left side, head on the right side, right foot position outside pointing to right instead in ward)

Just to be clear, I have never use their service or contact anyone from effortless swimming just been watching their videos for years now... really good to understand and view some of the challenges that different type of swimmer are going through...

A recent video that summarize some of the key elements is the video called magic words a lot of good tips...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ias6yRWbhro

I wish Sam good luck in his quest of getting faster in the water, just hope it doesn't take 6-8 years . His current swim stroke is limiting him to move forward... more mileage and gaining more swim fitness without major change might bring him from his current 1:21/100m speed down to 1:18/100m in his test but will plateau there.

Some might say, he has made some progress with my sprint times...and should continue that route! Get faster and you will hang on swim pack... just to end like Patrick Lange in Kona spent out after the swim and getting drop early on the bike. Not trying to comparing Sam and Patrick biking abilities just stating that swimming harder has a cost if it's done inefficiently.

So why is he swimming faster in his sprints, this is my assumptions without anything to back it out... (no footage or without seeing him) so pure speculation from my very own experience. He's breathing less during these efforts, kicking a lot more and perhaps a little higher stroke rate. All that gets exposed when the speed gets reduce... breathing issue, crossing over, body rotation, not holding water, dropping elbow...

Good news, it's only end of January, he has some good footage, seem to be a guy with a good attitude... just hope he doesn't get offended by the observations (as mentioned I might be totally wrong with them)

this is by far his biggest technical flaw and it is almost certainly the exhale that is amiss.

I wish Sam good luck in his quest of getting faster in the water, just hope it doesn't take 6-8 years . His current swim stroke is limiting him to move forward...

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To me this is the issue for BOP pro swimmers though in my mind. They do a 1 month swim block focus and are "disappointed" when they only improve by X seconds. Like seriously, go watch both Sam and Lionel's videos essentially in the last 48 hours and they are both disappointed in their time checks. When you "suck" that bad at swimming, you have to appreciate and enjoy the grind it's going to take to getting way better. It's not a 3 month "swim block" change, this is a multi-year process that will have ups and downs and sideway improvements, but that you still keep on getting after it. So while it shouldn't take 6-8 years, the "process" imo needs to be appreciated more for these athletes. Get in with a swim squad / coach that you can trust and show up every single session for the next 2-3 years. Don't pop in and out of "swim blocks" and then go swim alone for another 8 months doing "online swims" from your coach (that's been LS's approach).

I see it first hand within my squad of athletes. I've seen huge gains in the guys that get with me every day at swim practice vs the ones because of scheduling conflicts have to swim another time / alone. The swimmers that get every day feedback and eyes on them all the time will make that process so much easier.

So again I dont know what the actual swim coaching structure is going on with Sam at this pool. It looks like he's taking advantage of that on deck coach, but then he mentions also he's been doing his own coach sent workouts. Again that's just from the YT videos so what the actual dynamic is we dont know.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II