Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [thejoey] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
thejoey wrote:
shame... Brett Sutton can't get a hold of him.

Gotta disagree with you there, sport.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
It was after his accident, and he really needed to be worried more about that 200 time too. For the 5 or so seconds he never had in speed there, it made him burn a lot of matches in the first half of his ironman rides to get near or at the front of races. Shorter races he would just never really get there from that swim deficit.

He had the power to hang onto the lead swim group, he just didnt have the speed to actually get into it, quite frustrating for him for sure..

I might have lost a touch of top-end with my accident, though not a ton. But it definitely reset me. Like, I was making really good progress - I didn't give up much to the leaders in '09 and was definitely "getting there" and I had to work really hard to get back to that same point after my accident. I did get back to being as fast as I was - and faster, at least based on standalone times - but I do wonder what I might have been able to do if I hadn't needed to spend almost two years just getting back to where I was. But, fundamentally, I was never really a fast opener. I'm just not built for it, neither in terms of build (very small upper body, relatively long and heavy legs) nor physiology (not particularly explosive in ANY sport, including cycling).

Swimming, though, the delta was VERY low.

My best ever 200 SCY was 2:03.X
My best 500 was 5:23 (though I could have gone faster; I didn't race the 500 all that often)
My best 1000 was 10:59.
Interestingly, those times ALL came at the same meet (at the Rose Bowl). I swam 58.X in the 100y *in a relay* (so flying start). I swam 58s plenty of time, but never really any faster. All in 2012.
My best mile and my best hour came in 2014. I swam 18:19 for the 1650 and did 5275 for the Hour (1:08.2 pace - I won it in in 2012 overall for 30-34 AG, but less distance; I was 3rd that year - Jarrod Shoemaker won it in 5375. I bet Jarrod would have put way more than 1:08 on me in the swim of an Olympic tri, because that's the difference making the pack makes).

If I had it to do over again, I don't know that I'd actually focus on the 200. I think I would have NOT "focused" on swimming to any additional degree. What I would have done is what I did when I actually had the success in my career that I did have - I would have picked races with very hard bike/run combos and focused on winning those races. Kona was just never the race for me. But it was "Kona!" And I picked a really bad time to decide to race Kona; I took a huge hit in my swim when they split the male and female pros. Because the 1st pack (not off-the-front) female swimmers tended to be perfect pacers for me. 2012 - my first year in Kona - was the first year of split swim starts for male/female pros. That was a huge difference maker. I think in a mixed start, I made the 2nd group easily in 2012, and I probably came top-10. Shrinking the size of the swim in Kona from 100ish men and women to 50ish men made a huge difference to me. Kona was never a great race for me, but it was especially bad with a split swim.

I'm just not built for high-speed openers. Even with cycling, the delta between my absolute peak power and sustained anaerobic power is fairly low. Absolute peak of 1200w but I can do just about 800w for 1min. The pursuit is as short as I can race competitively. Like, some pursuiters can race the kilo competitively - like Ashton. But not me. I just don't have the physiology for it.

Sam's a LOT younger than I was. That's definitely a consideration when it comes to where his focus should lie. In my early 30's, with my build and physiology, it was probably a waste to focus on swimming. I should have been more like Kienle - doubled down on running. The time I put into running directly translated into improved run performance. Both speed and volume directly translated into triathlon success. Biking was more mixed; it was very specific riding that made me faster - mileage didn't do much but intensity did. With swimming, it didn't really matter much what I did. Speed, power, mileage. Nothing really changed. All the time I ended up putting into swimming was a waste, in hindsight. But of course, that's in hindsight. i didn't know that I wouldn't be able to do what Cunnama or Hoffman did. It seems obvious now, but I don' t know if it was obvious then. Maybe. Certainly I think I tried longer than I should have to become a substantially better swimmer. And maybe Sam will follow the Hoffman and Cunnama model. They were both a LOT slower than I was when they started. And they became clear front pack swimmers. Maybe that will be Sam. Guys with more "powerful" builds like Sam and Lionel probably are more suited to it, especially to the 200 speed aspect of it. Certainly they're built much more like Hoffman and Cunnama are.

But it's worth remembering that there really are two choices when it comes to how to tackle this particular issue. One is to work to become a much better swimmer. The other is to tailor your race schedule to races where the swim is less critical and to just be a good enough swimmer.

However, i will say that the lesson I took away from this - playing to your strengths and shoring up your weaknesses is a better approach than trying to fundamentally "change" or "eliminate" your weaknesses - has been by far the most impactful one for post-triathlon professional life. In my career since triathlon, I've put my energy into playing to my strengths. So, at least from that standpoint, it was a frustrating - but invaluable - experience.

I wish Sam the best in his quest to become a front pack swimmer. But I also believe you can make a career without it. You just have to pick the right races.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
good post !
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lionel does a 1000 m (not 1000 yard!) time trial. Result: [scroll below the video, don't want to spoil it for ya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpLOyocQfQ

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

11:57, and then 11:48 in a second back-to-back attempt.
Sam's was, as a reminder, 12:19 per 1000 yards (would work out to 13:28 per 1000 meters).

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Feb 26, 21 0:42
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wow, sub 12 min on 1000m, that's ITU level. Huge improvement from last year.
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Frankly, I imagine it might be the squad he is swimming with now, but it is also attributable to the FORM goggles. I've been using them for a few weeks now, and they are a game changer in my eyes. To have the feedback of pace, efficiency, and effort right in front of you mid rep is an amazing thing to have in ones quiver.
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lionel was also using a swim skin for both his attempts. Surely that gave him some advantage?
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I assumed that was just a mistake in the title and meant 1000 yards, I didn't see him mention metres, but maybe I missed that. He was swimming in a 25 yard pool, so if he was aiming for 1000 metres, it would have been slightly over or under 1000.


kajet wrote:
Lionel does a 1000 m (not 1000 yard!) time trial. Result: [scroll below the video, don't want to spoil it for ya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpLOyocQfQ

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

11:57, and then 11:48 in a second back-to-back attempt.
Sam's was, as a reminder, 12:19 per 1000 yards (would work out to 13:28 per 1000 meters).
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.

It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Engner66 wrote:
Wow, sub 12 min on 1000m, that's ITU level. Huge improvement from last year.

that's 10% slower than the average ITU guys (and 15% from the top ones). no way anyone could make it to the ITU with 18'/1500m scm
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [jacob2727] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Also using it due to Challenge Miami water temp threshold of non wetsuit likely.

LS's is doing what he needs to do with the swim....get in a swim environment that allows daily growth. Just listening to him talk about the swim you can tell he's learning and getting there.....the times at this point are almost irrelevant.....his mindset shift has been what you want to see!

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You are correct, I know of a former ITU guy (made the Olympics twice) that I raced in juniors that had a 18 min 1500 m but it was LCM, he was an "average" ITU swimmer. Didn't see Sanders video, but it was mentioned he had a swimskin, and that it was SCY.
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So awesome to hear you like them! I work for them, so let me know if you ever have any questions and I can point you in the right direction:)
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You´ll be seeing 1:10´s SCY in 6 weeks or so

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Feb 26, 21 7:24
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kajet wrote:
Lionel does a 1000 m (not 1000 yard!) time trial. Result: [scroll below the video, don't want to spoil it for ya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpLOyocQfQ

*


11:57, and then 11:48 in a second back-to-back attempt.
Sam's was, as a reminder, 12:19 per 1000 yards (would work out to 13:28 per 1000 meters).

So.... yeah. Yards, not meters. But Lionel is working hard. I think it's fun to root for your favorite athlete in this LS SL swim improvement quest, but trying to make a case that one is doing better than the other based on these vids is futile. For instance:

1) Sam's swim was at 5400 ft, sharing a super-narrow lane in a full pool making it very choppy.
2) LS is wearing a swim skin here, and is in a lane by himself in a mostly empty pool. Is he in Tuscon? so only 2,400 ft.
3) They have raced a couple times now and have always come out of the water together, right?

As far as I can tell, they are still tied.

I'm excited to see both of them have their hard work pay off.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.


It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.

It's actually a different pool - Oro Valley - and the last one was at the Aquabears pool - but it's 25 yards. Not to mention - and I love following this on the Form goggles app - he did 1000 TT, 500 at the same pace ending a 3250 workout - THEN the 11:48. Pretty good.

18:50 was the LCM 1500 pretty sure. Also pretty impressive.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tilburs wrote:
You´ll be seeing 1:10´s SCY in 6 weeks or so

11:48 is 1:10.8 - so aren't we seeing 1:10s now? ;)

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dfru wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.


It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.

It's actually a different pool - Oro Valley - and the last one was at the Aquabears pool - but it's 25 yards. Not to mention - and I love following this on the Form goggles app - he did 1000 TT, 500 at the same pace ending a 3250 workout - THEN the 11:48. Pretty good.

18:50 was the LCM 1500 pretty sure. Also pretty impressive.

I stand corrected, going off my somewhat fuzzy memory it looked like the same pool to me.

I'd like to see what LS is truly capable of in the swim, he hasn't come close to cracking it yet. Might be lacking some flexibility, but he's a fairly powerfully built guy with a massive aerobic engine. If he can figure out how to harness that, he could be far faster than he is now.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
dfru wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.


It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.


It's actually a different pool - Oro Valley - and the last one was at the Aquabears pool - but it's 25 yards. Not to mention - and I love following this on the Form goggles app - he did 1000 TT, 500 at the same pace ending a 3250 workout - THEN the 11:48. Pretty good.

18:50 was the LCM 1500 pretty sure. Also pretty impressive.


I stand corrected, going off my somewhat fuzzy memory it looked like the same pool to me.

I'd like to see what LS is truly capable of in the swim, he hasn't come close to cracking it yet. Might be lacking some flexibility, but he's a fairly powerfully built guy with a massive aerobic engine. If he can figure out how to harness that, he could be far faster than he is now.

Agreed. If he's in a situation where he's got measuring sticks and the type of coaching that seems to be going on, he could get to the next level. It's so funny - Kienle has been swimming since he was like...9? And he gets away with swimming Lionel speeds without questions haha. I think Lionel will make strides for sure - hopefully with the stroke and then - he spoke of his lack of comfort with people around - translate that somehow to the open water - GR for a month before Kona? The nice thing is - I am sure DTD is all over this and they really seem to have a good solid plan in place now.

Fun stuff this - I love the transparency.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
1) Sam's swim was at 5400 ft, sharing a super-narrow lane in a full pool making it very choppy.
2) LS is wearing a swim skin here, and is in a lane by himself in a mostly empty pool. Is he in Tuscon? so only 2,400 ft.
3) They have raced a couple times now and have always come out of the water together, right?

As far as I can tell, they are still tied. //


Just looking at them from the cheap seats here, I agree they are almost the exact same in the pool water. Funny how just a couple things left out brought Lionel's swim back down to earth. No meters, swim skin, no all out 200 before hand, at sea level, and he is on the same half lap as Sam at the finish of a 1000 tt, probably wall touching together.


Those swims are still hanging onto 2nd pack for him, he needs to be at 1;06 pace or better to have any hope of a lead group back of the pack swim. And more so he needs a sub 1;59 200 really, hanging on once the group has settled down is quite easy as compared to actually making it in the first 400 or so..
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Those swims are still hanging onto 2nd pack for him, he needs to be at 1;06 pace or better to have any hope of a lead group back of the pack swim. And more so he needs a sub 1;59 200 really, hanging on once the group has settled down is quite easy as compared to actually making it in the first 400 or so..
2nd pack is extremely optimistic with those times even in average 70.3 fields. Perhaps with perfect open water execution, but fields are big nowadays and there are a lot of swimmers in that range.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
2nd pack is extremely optimistic with those times even in average 70.3 fields.//

Yes, one would have to have great OW skills to go with those times to "hang" onto 2nd pack groups. I think Lionel has gotten a lot better over the years in that regard, may even have snuck onto some of those bigger 2nd groups. Remember one year in Kona he spaced out, lost the 2nd group, then led the 3rd group for most the race. About the worst possible scenario in the swim for him, going harder and coming out a minute+ slower. I hate that when that happens...)-;


I'm not sure what is going on with him, these times are not nearly as good as his 18 high 1500LCM he swam years ago. Perhaps he is swimming tired now and has a break through sub 11 minute 1000 tt in him soon. That is about where Jordan was at his prime, and he was a solid 2nd pack swimmer on his good days.
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To me it looks like his hips aren't in it; he's just powering through with shoulders and kick but not connected. Sort of like how he runs, it isn't as fluid as some natural runners (but he has the engine to get results).

Also his walls are atrocious. I don't think he breaks the flags before surfacing even off the first wall. A guy with his leg strength needs to take advantage of that push off the wall.
Someone needs to explain to him that he can't produce as much force on the water as he can pushing off the wall, so he needs to maximize that push and then minimize the loss of speed (this is true for everyone).

Also how did a Sam Long thread get hijacked into an LS thread?

-----
Quote Reply
Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Optimal_Adrian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Optimal_Adrian wrote:
To me it looks like his hips aren't in it; he's just powering through with shoulders and kick but not connected. Sort of like how he runs, it isn't as fluid as some natural runners (but he has the engine to get results).

Also his walls are atrocious. I don't think he breaks the flags before surfacing even off the first wall. A guy with his leg strength needs to take advantage of that push off the wall.
Someone needs to explain to him that he can't produce as much force on the water as he can pushing off the wall, so he needs to maximize that push and then minimize the loss of speed (this is true for everyone).

Also how did a Sam Long thread get hijacked into an LS thread?

Oh yeah, technically he's a complete mess. It's amazing to me that he can swim as fast as he does.

I'd want to give him some sets with a max number of strokes per length. Not to say that he has to race that way, but to force him to learn how to lengthen his stroke.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Feb 26, 21 11:29
Quote Reply

Prev Next