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Sam Long Swim Test
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I really enjoyed this video, and not just cause the best part has me in it (at the very beginning, the group swimming in the pool that he's talking to... yeah, I know.. that's not really the best part).

He does a test set to evaluate if his recent swim training is really working. Also in the video is Tyler Butterfield and Andres Lopez.

The actual best part is Rally Sport swim coach Austin Vinton saying to Sam after the test, "just so you know, Morgan Pearson can do that without breaking a heart rate of 120."

There's interesting conversation among the athletes about how best to execute this kind of TT, good technique, making sure that what you are doing in the pool is relevant to the racing you are doing, as well as a lot of just fun shit talking.




Another good part is while Sam is crushing himself in the test set, Matt Miller of Base is just casually doing an easy pull set next to him at the same speed :P Sorry Sam, you know I'm your biggest fan.

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Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 27, 21 13:08
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Someone needs to teach Sam how to push off the wall and flip turn better.

Err- I mean- good video. Thanks for posting and sending me back decades when I could have hung with those guys. You can see the pain in his stroke at the end of that swim.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Someone needs to teach Sam how to push off the wall and flip turn better.

Err- I mean- good video. Thanks for posting and sending me back decades when I could have hung with those guys. You can see the pain in his stroke at the end of that swim.

I had not watched the whole video yet when I posted this, and man, Sam gets REAL in the after-workout interview. If you don't find inspiration in this about challenging yourself and getting better, then nothing will inspire you.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't realize it was 'post 1000y time trial video' week. Loved Tyler's contributions in this video. Looks like a fun group to swim with.

Also a little motivating for me watching Lionel and Sam swim 1000s, until I remember how badly they can smoke me on the bike :|

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
Someone needs to teach Sam how to push off the wall and flip turn better.

Err- I mean- good video. Thanks for posting and sending me back decades when I could have hung with those guys. You can see the pain in his stroke at the end of that swim.

I had not watched the whole video yet when I posted this, and man, Sam gets REAL in the after-workout interview. If you don't find inspiration in this about challenging yourself and getting better, then nothing will inspire you.

I guess nothing will inspire me then. I have tried to watch this guy speak several times now over the past year or so. I just find him really annoying when he he opens his mouth (admittedly less so in the post-workout portion you reference).
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah loved the interaction of Tyler and Sam. It's not staged. It's just real athletes doing real work and having fun at it.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Also, where are you swimming? Rally is the place to be!

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Also, where are you swimming? Rally is the place to be!
Ahh when I said local, I meant more local than before haha. We're actually in the Springs. But I've got a lot of flexibility so hopefully I can come up fairly often to train with guys my level.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I kinda liked "that's how you swim"...."no wonder your slow" when they were looking at his arm entry.

Cool video, the one thing he's doing is busting his butt but in a good "squad" environment. That is so critical for the success and mental well being for athletes grinding away.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Sam is great, really a genuine, fun loving guy with great determination. He is a bit goofy but after a while he grows on you. I started to follow his training on strava after seeing his Daytona interview and have been pretty taken back by this guys talent. I have to remind myself that he is only 24. His potential is really limitless at this point. I think he is going to do very well in the next few years

Strava
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I love how Rally is *the* place to swim in Boulder. It seems like all the Boulder-based pros swim there. I mean, are AGers even allowed in the water? lol

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
Last edited by: cloy: Jan 27, 21 14:46
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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Rally is awesome and it is sort of a highly concentrated microcosm of the tri community that demonstrates why triathlon is so great. Yes, AGers of all abilities swim there. You can swim in the lane next to a legend that you've looked up to, then hang out in the hot tub after and everyone is just having a great time. You don't need to be an elite athlete to fit in. You just need to train hard while you're there (even if that's in the slow lane), be yourself and have a good time.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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If you can get over the "bravado" of Sam, his videos are pretty good from a content stand point. Like the best value in that whole video was the banter that each of those athletes was bringing up to Sam. The 200 as being "not all out" but "strong sustained" which is super critical for LC racing.....You need that get out speed, but you can't fry yourself that the next 500 drops 20s/100. He's still young and figuring out the best approach to hitting it off with fans I think. I think he's always going to be "loud" and I also think he's still kinda battling for his "spot" in the pro ranks within the total package of social media, racing, respect, etc.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
If you can get over the "bravado" of Sam,


I can’t. I don’t love bravado but I can appreciate it and the entertainment value it can bring. But, with him it comes across as so contrived and corny. He’s forcing it so badly that’s it just makes me cringe. I like his attack style of racing and certainly don’t root against him as an athlete, But, I can’t stand to listen to him talk.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Jan 27, 21 15:51
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Damn, maybe a commute from Denver for a swim every once in a while is in order. I'm assuming it's a masters program?

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Completely understand that. I think he's "faking it till he makes it" until he kinda finally gets his feet firmly in the pro ranks with his persona / racing / maturity. Which I think he'll probaly always play the "bad boy" in tri, I just think he'll eventually play it when he needs to and not have to play it up EVERY SINGLE VIDEO like he does now.

Long winded answer to say, keep giving it a go. I have no skin in the Sam Long game, I 100% understand what you mean, I'm just also looking at a 24 year old "kid" who I can def see growing up and being really really good for the sport.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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There are masters classes and there's just lap swim too. You don't need to be a US Masters member or anything like that. You have to reserve lanes in advance now because of covid restrictions and it can be a race when the month becomes available for sign up to get the preferred times.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Watching this is just so painful for the swimmer in me... his stroke needs so much work... and those flip turns (although not as relevant or important for triathlon obviously)
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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He should have just stopped after the 200. Until he gets that 200 around or just under 2 minutes it doesn’t matter about his 1000 time trial time. And judging from his splits on the 200, he’s probably too focused on the distance aspect of the swim.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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That was fun to watch, thanks. It looks like Sam is a really hard worker, but he needs to really start to feel the swimmers stroke. This was Lionel a few years ago, and he now looks like he swam as a child. It just takes time, but in the meantime, hard work will get him some seconds here and there.

But realistically he has to get his 1000 under 11 minutes to have any chance in shorter races, and that might get him 2nd big pack in big Ironman's too. Unless he has some godlike OW skills, not really sure where he has been coming out in the big races these past years..

But it did give me some motivation, so will train a bit for it, and go and try and beat his times by myself. I will be pulling though, 65+ handicap...(-;

One thing not really mentioned, but assume this pool was at some altitude, maybe 5k?? That can really make a big difference when you do a really hard 200 first, I think I will try and pace mine a little more towards 2;15 or so..
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Sam is very authentic...he ran Cross-Country with my son at Boulder High ( Sam was a middlin' Varsity runner then, I wouldn't have picked him as a future IM champ! ). Listening to his videos is pretty much the same smack-talk I heard around the pasta feasts before races. A little loud, but the guy that would be the first one to help a teammate.

His family was all pretty studly - I was at the SilverRush 50 MTB race ( sort of a shorter, steeper Leadville 100) and I ran into his dad post race and asked how their day went. He casually said "OK, we both won" . One of my infamous days I was out on my MTB riding over Old Stage to Heil Ranch. I was just sort of turning the pedals over when I heard some chatting behind me. I picked up the pace a bit, but still at warm-up effort and was soon passed by Sam's mother who has having a nice girly gab as they passed me on their road bikes. I like to think I could have kept them behind me if I really had tried... but the fact remains Sam's mom is on the long list of women who have chicked me ;-)

" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
He should have just stopped after the 200. Until he gets that 200 around or just under 2 minutes it doesn’t matter about his 1000 time trial time. And judging from his splits on the 200, he’s probably too focused on the distance aspect of the swim.

This is interesting. Could you elaborate?

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah about ,5300 feet.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
SnappingT wrote:
He should have just stopped after the 200. Until he gets that 200 around or just under 2 minutes it doesn’t matter about his 1000 time trial time. And judging from his splits on the 200, he’s probably too focused on the distance aspect of the swim.


This is interesting. Could you elaborate?

I'm curious about this as well. I did a ~90% effort 2000yd yesterday in 23:50 at about 6,000 ft, but I think I would max out around 2:03 or 2:04 for 200. I just chalk that up to my fast twitch being more or less completely gone. Doesn't stress me out too much for 2100+ yard races.

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Last edited by: realbdeal: Jan 27, 21 17:02
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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I think the real issue is that you don't want that opening 200 to be your "max" effort but just below that (yes we are talking small differences) so that when that pace backs down after that opening surge you dont "fall off" for the next 500. That I think is what SnappyT is getting at. Or atleast that's how I would coach it.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 27, 21 17:20
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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BTW are you swimming at Pikes swim club, or manitou springs? OTC?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
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-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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The speed will be a lot harder to get at than the endurance, although that’ll take some time too. If he doesn’t have the speed to go out with the front pack then his “endurance” isn’t going to catch him up later. He needs to focus on getting a faster 200/400. You could also tell since his splits were 32/34/1:06 for a 2:12, he doesn’t have a lot of speed just endurance. There’s always a compromise when training for speed or endurance, you sacrifice one to get the other. If he focused more on speed, he might be able to get what he needs and it would improve his technique - although I could guess from the way he’s moving in the water that he’s doing too much bike/run. At the speeds he’ll need to go, technique becomes more impactful than fitness.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
The speed will be a lot harder to get at than the endurance, although that’ll take some time too. If he doesn’t have the speed to go out with the front pack then his “endurance” isn’t going to catch him up later. He needs to focus on getting a faster 200/400. You could also tell since his splits were 32/34/1:06 for a 2:12, he doesn’t have a lot of speed just endurance. There’s always a compromise when training for speed or endurance, you sacrifice one to get the other. If he focused more on speed, he might be able to get what he needs and it would improve his technique - although I could guess from the way he’s moving in the water that he’s doing too much bike/run. At the speeds he’ll need to go, technique becomes more impactful than fitness.
I guess that makes sense, but at the same time, he should be able to swim with decent technique at 1:08 pace or so. Therefore he likely wouldn't be sabatoging his swimming by doing longer sets at that pace. And he could still work on the speed as well. Sure, it would be best to be able to open up in 60sec pace for a few hundreds and then settle into 1:10s, but if given the choice between being able to swim a 2:00 200 or a 11:30 1000, the latter is going to lose him way less time in real races.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
Someone needs to teach Sam how to push off the wall and flip turn better.

Err- I mean- good video. Thanks for posting and sending me back decades when I could have hung with those guys. You can see the pain in his stroke at the end of that swim.


I had not watched the whole video yet when I posted this, and man, Sam gets REAL in the after-workout interview. If you don't find inspiration in this about challenging yourself and getting better, then nothing will inspire you.

I was surprised by his emotions. Glad to see though.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
BTW are you swimming at Pikes swim club, or manitou springs? OTC?
Lol. Try the downtown YMCA with the 6 lane 82 degree pool. Currently the closet and cheapest option for us. We're very actively looking to buy a house which in this market is just an absolute blast (kill me), so we'll see where we end up and what pool is closest. I talked to Justin Trolle on the phone so we'll pop in for some masters at some point.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Rally is awesome and it is sort of a highly concentrated microcosm of the tri community that demonstrates why triathlon is so great. Yes, AGers of all abilities swim there. You can swim in the lane next to a legend that you've looked up to, then hang out in the hot tub after and everyone is just having a great time. You don't need to be an elite athlete to fit in. You just need to train hard while you're there (even if that's in the slow lane), be yourself and have a good time.

Happy to have a pool to swim in, but the outdoor poll at Rally could use a cleaning. Leaves on the bottom of the pool, a few floating band-aids, etc. Also, in the winter they should be a bit more vigilant with ice on the deck around the pool.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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The endurance piece is easier to get once you’ve got a decent stroke. Speed is a lot harder to develop. In swimming, a 200/400 swimmer isn’t a sprinter they’re considered mid-distance. The 400 swimmers are starting to become more and more competitive at the 10k because they have speed and endurance. The big equalizer for triathletes who didn’t come from a swim background is the draft. The key piece then becomes can you develop enough speed to go out with the front pack, not blow up and hang on. The first male to the first buoy in Kona is routinely 1:11/100m. If you take into account it’s an open water start and no walls that put it’s around 1:06-1:08/100m equivalent effort. For easier comparison to what Sam just did, that’s about a minute to just under a minute for the first 100 yards. At those speeds (about 1.7 yards a sec) Sam (1.5 yards/sec) by the end of the first 100 he would already be 1.2 yards back. By the end of the first 200, he’s more than a body length back and outside the effective draft. That’s the point where you see that quick gap form from one pack to the next.

Hope this helps,

Tim

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Are all pros this bad at swimming? Does he not know about USRPT?

I’ll never understand why folks won’t just commit to a full season of swimming with a masters team.

Strava
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Jkgoff] [ In reply to ]
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I don't get why it's so taboo for a pro to show bravado and talk a bit of smack. When athletes are too concerned about upsetting people to call each other out the sport gets boring. This sport needs people like Sam Long to keep it interesting. It needs rivalries. Listen to the MX Endurance podcast with Sam and he explains that the PTO asked him to throw banter at Gustav because no one else would. Without
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Fletch_boy] [ In reply to ]
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If you can throw down a 47 minute 40k, you're allowed a little bravado. Even if you haven't 100% figured out swimming fast in your first few years.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
If you can throw down a 47 minute 40k, you're allowed a little bravado. Even if you haven't 100% figured out swimming fast in your first few years.

Hell yeah he can ride, and his run ain't bad. So he needs to work on the swim, but he's still winning races despite his weakness. Imagine if the pros refused to talk big until they'd won Kona. Imagine how boring the story of triathlon would be.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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He’s a bit awkward/goofy, but his videos are entertaining. He’s 7 years younger than Lionel
So he’s got a bigger head start to get his swim where it needs to be when he hits is prime years.

It’s interesting to see age groupers with swim backgrounds criticize those who are fast. Perhaps cyclists are not the most arrogant snobs out there

Matt
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Chemist wrote:
He’s a bit awkward/goofy, but his videos are entertaining. He’s 7 years younger than Lionel
So he’s got a bigger head start to get his swim where it needs to be when he hits is prime years.


But Lionel has been competing for 8 years trying to work on his swim.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Jan 27, 21 20:00
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I may be wrong, believe Sam has been swimming faster at a given age than Lionel so he has a bit smaller gap to make up (albeit still large). And there have been arguing until people are blue in the face around here whether Lionel’s approach to faster swimming during that time period was the “right” approach

Matt
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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And sam is still coming out of the water with lionel...

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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LS has probaly "wasted" 6 of those 8 years by swimming alone w/ online workouts and very little coaching feedback likely based on his timeline and videos and such.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
LS has probaly "wasted" 6 of those 8 years by swimming alone w/ online workouts and very little coaching feedback likely based on his timeline and videos and such.


Doing things alone made him a world class bike-runner. With such success in that ideology, its no surprise he has pursued swimming similarly. He has known for years the flaw in his swim training, but it goes against who he is and how he mentally attacks things. Its almost unfortunate that he hasn't been able to find success in his swim using a similar approach. It just shows how deeply technically complex swimming really is

Edit sorry thought this was the ls thread no hijack

Strava
Last edited by: rsjrv99: Jan 27, 21 21:01
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [rsjrv99] [ In reply to ]
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Yes and so Sam Long has a huge head start if he learns from the very mistakes from his main rival currently. That's why I hope beyond hope that while he's doing all these squad swims he's actually getting stroke development help from the on deck coach. I assume he is based on the videos continuing to showcase that swim coach.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
And sam is still coming out of the water with lionel...

That’s my point. The presumption of improvement because he is younger is flawed. But, I hope he does!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Someone needs to teach Sam how to push off the wall and flip turn better.

Err- I mean- good video. Thanks for posting and sending me back decades when I could have hung with those guys. You can see the pain in his stroke at the end of that swim.

YES. So many bad streamlines and turns do I see in these videos with pros who can't swim. This goes back to 'learning to move through the water' that young kids master by racing each other in practice everyday doing 'goofy' stuff like dolphin dives, sculling, drills, etc. This is the feel that bad swimmers don't have; the feel for when your technique is slowing you down as well as producing propulsion from the catch.

There was some talk in there of Sam's feet splaying out-- definitely not a good thing-- he should get some video analysis of his head position during a breath, that is a likely cause that forces your feet to splay out as a counter balance. Effortless swimming on youtube has a video about this I think.

-----
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Jkgoff] [ In reply to ]
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Jkgoff wrote:
Are all pros this bad at swimming? Does he not know about USRPT?

I’ll never understand why folks won’t just commit to a full season of swimming with a masters team.

Matt Russell was doing this in Sarasota before he moved. I think it helps a lot, more so than swimming with other pro triathletes. Why? You can watch people who have been swimming for their entire lives to see what their stroke looks like, etc. That's super important in swimming, obviously.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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I also think Master's teams help stop some of the horrible practice sets/habits of triathletes. Those 3X1000 or 6x500 sets where all they do is practice slapping the water with an inefficient stroke.

I had never been exposed to triathlete swim habits until Covid forced to me to swim solo at the Y. Its been eye opening.

Strava
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Optimal_Adrian] [ In reply to ]
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Optimal_Adrian wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
Someone needs to teach Sam how to push off the wall and flip turn better.


Err- I mean- good video. Thanks for posting and sending me back decades when I could have hung with those guys. You can see the pain in his stroke at the end of that swim.


YES. So many bad streamlines and turns do I see in these videos with pros who can't swim. This goes back to 'learning to move through the water' that young kids master by racing each other in practice everyday doing 'goofy' stuff like dolphin dives, sculling, drills, etc. This is the feel that bad swimmers don't have; the feel for when your technique is slowing you down as well as producing propulsion from the catch.

There was some talk in there of Sam's feet splaying out-- definitely not a good thing-- he should get some video analysis of his head position during a breath, that is a likely cause that forces your feet to splay out as a counter balance. Effortless swimming on youtube has a video about this I think.


Effortless swimming has awesome videos and the guy does really good swim video analysis! If I was Sam would send his current video and also some underwater video to him.

There's major flaws in swim stroke I have played the video at a very low speed on youtube at 0.25 playback speed, not great but still workable.

Just to point out a few things, and swim experts here correct me if I'm wrong...

- Breathing (way too long), perhaps not exhaling under water (underwater footage would confirm that...) look at footage 6:20-6:23 stop around 6:23 his left hand is about to enter the water and his head is still on the side, right arm elbow dropped... what he does compensate with a big left kick... more than often when you see a swimmer with a big kick splashing on one side is because he's trying to mask a flaw. (lost is hold on the water)

- This is perhaps the best footage to show where things are totally out of sync...
Start the footage at 6:57 but than run image by image until 6:59... pause at 6:59... his right hand is aligned with his left shoulder (crossing over big time)
6:58 legs a spread a part creating a lot of drag, left leg kick out of sync with kicking at the same of left arm.

7:03-7:05 - totally on his side (90 degrees) should be maximum at 40-45 degrees... 7:04 body misalignment (hips on the left side, head on the right side, right foot position outside pointing to right instead in ward)

Just to be clear, I have never use their service or contact anyone from effortless swimming just been watching their videos for years now... really good to understand and view some of the challenges that different type of swimmer are going through...

A recent video that summarize some of the key elements is the video called magic words a lot of good tips...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ias6yRWbhro

I wish Sam good luck in his quest of getting faster in the water, just hope it doesn't take 6-8 years . His current swim stroke is limiting him to move forward... more mileage and gaining more swim fitness without major change might bring him from his current 1:21/100m speed down to 1:18/100m in his test but will plateau there.

Some might say, he has made some progress with my sprint times...and should continue that route! Get faster and you will hang on swim pack... just to end like Patrick Lange in Kona spent out after the swim and getting drop early on the bike. Not trying to comparing Sam and Patrick biking abilities just stating that swimming harder has a cost if it's done inefficiently.

So why is he swimming faster in his sprints, this is my assumptions without anything to back it out... (no footage or without seeing him) so pure speculation from my very own experience. He's breathing less during these efforts, kicking a lot more and perhaps a little higher stroke rate. All that gets exposed when the speed gets reduce... breathing issue, crossing over, body rotation, not holding water, dropping elbow...

Good news, it's only end of January, he has some good footage, seem to be a guy with a good attitude... just hope he doesn't get offended by the observations (as mentioned I might be totally wrong with them)
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MTL] [ In reply to ]
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MTL wrote:
Optimal_Adrian wrote:

There was some talk in there of Sam's feet splaying out-- definitely not a good thing-- he should get some video analysis of his head position during a breath, that is a likely cause that forces your feet to splay out as a counter balance. Effortless swimming on youtube has a video about this I think.


- Breathing (way too long), perhaps not exhaling under water (underwater footage would confirm that...) look at footage 6:20-6:23 stop around 6:23 his left hand is about to enter the water and his head is still on the side, right arm elbow dropped... what he does compensate with a big left kick... more than often when you see a swimmer with a big kick splashing on one side is because he's trying to mask a flaw. (lost is hold on the water)

this is by far his biggest technical flaw and it is almost certainly the exhale that is amiss.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MTL] [ In reply to ]
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I wish Sam good luck in his quest of getting faster in the water, just hope it doesn't take 6-8 years . His current swim stroke is limiting him to move forward...

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To me this is the issue for BOP pro swimmers though in my mind. They do a 1 month swim block focus and are "disappointed" when they only improve by X seconds. Like seriously, go watch both Sam and Lionel's videos essentially in the last 48 hours and they are both disappointed in their time checks. When you "suck" that bad at swimming, you have to appreciate and enjoy the grind it's going to take to getting way better. It's not a 3 month "swim block" change, this is a multi-year process that will have ups and downs and sideway improvements, but that you still keep on getting after it. So while it shouldn't take 6-8 years, the "process" imo needs to be appreciated more for these athletes. Get in with a swim squad / coach that you can trust and show up every single session for the next 2-3 years. Don't pop in and out of "swim blocks" and then go swim alone for another 8 months doing "online swims" from your coach (that's been LS's approach).

I see it first hand within my squad of athletes. I've seen huge gains in the guys that get with me every day at swim practice vs the ones because of scheduling conflicts have to swim another time / alone. The swimmers that get every day feedback and eyes on them all the time will make that process so much easier.

So again I dont know what the actual swim coaching structure is going on with Sam at this pool. It looks like he's taking advantage of that on deck coach, but then he mentions also he's been doing his own coach sent workouts. Again that's just from the YT videos so what the actual dynamic is we dont know.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
He should have just stopped after the 200. Until he gets that 200 around or just under 2 minutes it doesn’t matter about his 1000 time trial time. And judging from his splits on the 200, he’s probably too focused on the distance aspect of the swim.

I agree. Someone who takes a timed 200 out in :32 to the feet has no chance of holding 1:12 for a 1000. Butterfield (I think it was him in the video?) was completely wrong when he compared swim sprinting to running sprints on the track.

Several Olympic Trials finalists in the 1500 will have a trials cut in the 100 free. And (probably) all the finalists in the 100 could get a trials cut in in the 1500.

Right now if he does 10 x 50's on a minute at best average he is going to settle in around :32 mid. If that number comes down, watch out. This guy's engine is unbelievable.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Loved that video. It was such a cool look into his current process. The kid is so young and giving people a really close look at what he's feeling. The fact that he feels like he's letting people down, to me, really means that he's full invested himself into all this. I agree with what people are saying about the time it will take him to become a really good swimmer but at his age and with his drive I feel like he has a super high ceiling. Just really enjoyed the video and everyone around him giving him advice and giving him shit. It's a window I think we'd all like to be able to see more through if possible.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [jond81] [ In reply to ]
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It's such a good video showing raw emotion and drive of an up and coming young triathlete trying to refine technique in the pool. Most of us can relate, except for him it's bigger since it is his livelihood and career at stake.

He knows he has work to do and is fully committed to doing the work knowing the sacrifice that will be involved. Seeing him break down post swim was epic along with him mentioning he'll be back later that night. I'm thankful for the transparency and trueness. He talks a lot of smack, but I think it's just his way of lightening up the sport. Let's face it, it's a grind and triathlon needs some fun personalities. I'm a fan of Sam and the work he's doing to get better.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Raw Vegan] [ In reply to ]
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He knows he has work to do and is fully committed to doing the work knowing the sacrifice that will be involved.

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change sacrifice to opportunity and you suddenly view things much more differently.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
B_Doughtie wrote:
He knows he has work to do and is fully committed to doing the work knowing the sacrifice that will be involved.

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change sacrifice to opportunity and you suddenly view things much more differently.

LOVE this change of verbage...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
He knows he has work to do and is fully committed to doing the work knowing the sacrifice that will be involved.

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change sacrifice to opportunity and you suddenly view things much more differently.

you're such a coach : )
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I don't follow either closely, but thought Lionel just did a 1000K TT as well and came in at 12:03 which puts them both in the same ball park currently for this effort as well. I don't know the protocol for Lionel's (i.e. if he did a hard 200 leading into it).

"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [flynnzu] [ In reply to ]
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flynnzu wrote:
I don't follow either closely, but thought Lionel just did a 1000K TT as well and came in at 12:03 which puts them both in the same ball park currently for this effort as well. I don't know the protocol for Lionel's (i.e. if he did a hard 200 leading into it).

why would LS be swimming in SCY? Just wondering.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
flynnzu wrote:
I don't follow either closely, but thought Lionel just did a 1000K TT as well and came in at 12:03 which puts them both in the same ball park currently for this effort as well. I don't know the protocol for Lionel's (i.e. if he did a hard 200 leading into it).


why would LS be swimming in SCY? Just wondering.

Because he is in Tucson, in a 25 yard pool.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [jpay] [ In reply to ]
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Thnx
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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and to be clear - it wasn't 1000K! :)

"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [flynnzu] [ In reply to ]
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but thought Lionel just did a 1000K TT as well and came in at 12:03 which puts them both in the same ball park currently for this effort as well. //

Not sure what this time for Lionel is, but it is no where near his top speed. I remember either last year or year before he did a 1500 LCM in mid 18's, so he would be closer to 11 flat for a 1k. SCY swim. Maybe it was the protocol and he hammered the 200, that could lead to a 12 flat tt for him.


And Snapping T is correct in his assessment, Sam should be working on doing a really fast 200. And in swimming if you go faster there, your distance swims will follow too. It was like Rapp in the old days, he could do 1;08 pace for the hour swim, but not break 2 minutes for a 200. And what that meant to him was he could out swim over half the lead groups, but never actually be in them because of his low top end 200/400 speed. He could do 5 back to back to back 1k's at 11;20 pace, and never sniff the tail end of lead groups in the big races. That ought to give some perspective where sam is at right now, so a very long way to go for sure. But he is young and works hard, just needs a real swimming bloc for a couple years, and he could be solid 2nd pack in a Kona type swim..
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously - 1:08 for an hour but not under 2:00 for 200? That’s wild.

I can’t imagine such a small difference, but it must be a yardage thing. Last year at my lifetime swimming peak (42 year old AOS, but regular swimming for a decade) I did a 200 in 2:34. An hour would have been...1:50 pace? But that was only 8-9k a week from January-March. I’m sure Jordan’s yardage was slightly higher...

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
Seriously - 1:08 for an hour but not under 2:00 for 200? That’s wild.

I can’t imagine such a small difference, but it must be a yardage thing. Last year at my lifetime swimming peak (42 year old AOS, but regular swimming for a decade) I did a 200 in 2:34. An hour would have been...1:50 pace? But that was only 8-9k a week from January-March. I’m sure Jordan’s yardage was slightly higher...

I'm a lifelong swimmer.

FWIW At my peak, I was just under 17 minutes for a 1650, and my fastest 200y at the same time was 1:54.9. When my 200 was closer to 1:50, my 500 was near 5, but my mile was slower. When my mile was down near 17 minutes, my open water 5k was under 1:02 (near 1:08/100yard pace). You make tradeoffs for sure.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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It's not an yardage issue (or I guess not in terms of Rapp putting in the time while a triathlon imo). Imo if I remember correctly Rapp wasn't a "swimmer". I would think it's his lack of ability to "go fast" in the water simply because he likely came into the sport late and thus your more of an "endurance" physio by that point + you have to learn to swim properly first so you sorta lose a lot of the ability to "go fast" vs spending a lot of time simply learning to swim properly.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously - 1:08 for an hour but not under 2:00 for 200? That’s wild. //

I know, I would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. Jordan actually won the hour swim in his AG in masters one year, he could just repeat 1;08's all day long. Then I did a meet with him locally here, and he barley broke a minute for the 100, 58+ as I recall..
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty, what type of pool? SCY? LCM?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, surely not yardage for Rapp. I assume yardage is what allowed him to get his hour pace so close to his 200 pace. Just wild that the delta was so narrow!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't done an all out 200, probably ever. But I would bet it's in the neigborhood of 2:30 so 1:15. For an hour, no wetsuit, open water, I can hold around 1:28. Not quite as narrow as Jordan, but still only a 13 sec/100yd difference. Is that unusually tight for a triathlete that doesn't swim very much?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Monty, what type of pool? SCY? LCM? //

All SCY pools and times. Here in southern CA it is mostly what we swim, and the hour swim is also scored in yards too.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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You should do an all-out 200! I’d be curious to see how it compares.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Monty, what type of pool? SCY? LCM? //

All SCY pools and times. Here in southern CA it is mostly what we swim, and the hour swim is also scored in yards too.

Just shows you how much that early technique/ yardage matters. My son took swim lessons, swam the short 7th and 8th grade seasons, then with a low-level club that spring, but no real experience beyond that (mostly soccer). He went :56 as a 9th grader.

No way in the world he’d hold 1:08 for longer than...500? 600? We’ll see this season.

Obviously some of that is training specificity. Jordan wasn’t as worried about a fast open as much as ITU guys. And he certainly had tons more yards in at that point.

Was that swim race before or after his accident?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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It was after his accident, and he really needed to be worried more about that 200 time too. For the 5 or so seconds he never had in speed there, it made him burn a lot of matches in the first half of his ironman rides to get near or at the front of races. Shorter races he would just never really get there from that swim deficit.

He had the power to hang onto the lead swim group, he just didnt have the speed to actually get into it, quite frustrating for him for sure..
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
He knows he has work to do and is fully committed to doing the work knowing the sacrifice that will be involved.

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change sacrifice to opportunity and you suddenly view things much more differently.

+1 to this thought. I'm not sure what the sacrifice is here. Yeah, it sucks being on a pool deck in the cold, but that is not much different that being outside in general, if he were biking or running in the same conditions. Maybe he has to sacrifice some ego since he's going to be humiliated in the pool by better swimmers every day.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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shame... Brett Sutton can't get a hold of him.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [thejoey] [ In reply to ]
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thejoey wrote:
shame... Brett Sutton can't get a hold of him.

Gotta disagree with you there, sport.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
It was after his accident, and he really needed to be worried more about that 200 time too. For the 5 or so seconds he never had in speed there, it made him burn a lot of matches in the first half of his ironman rides to get near or at the front of races. Shorter races he would just never really get there from that swim deficit.

He had the power to hang onto the lead swim group, he just didnt have the speed to actually get into it, quite frustrating for him for sure..

I might have lost a touch of top-end with my accident, though not a ton. But it definitely reset me. Like, I was making really good progress - I didn't give up much to the leaders in '09 and was definitely "getting there" and I had to work really hard to get back to that same point after my accident. I did get back to being as fast as I was - and faster, at least based on standalone times - but I do wonder what I might have been able to do if I hadn't needed to spend almost two years just getting back to where I was. But, fundamentally, I was never really a fast opener. I'm just not built for it, neither in terms of build (very small upper body, relatively long and heavy legs) nor physiology (not particularly explosive in ANY sport, including cycling).

Swimming, though, the delta was VERY low.

My best ever 200 SCY was 2:03.X
My best 500 was 5:23 (though I could have gone faster; I didn't race the 500 all that often)
My best 1000 was 10:59.
Interestingly, those times ALL came at the same meet (at the Rose Bowl). I swam 58.X in the 100y *in a relay* (so flying start). I swam 58s plenty of time, but never really any faster. All in 2012.
My best mile and my best hour came in 2014. I swam 18:19 for the 1650 and did 5275 for the Hour (1:08.2 pace - I won it in in 2012 overall for 30-34 AG, but less distance; I was 3rd that year - Jarrod Shoemaker won it in 5375. I bet Jarrod would have put way more than 1:08 on me in the swim of an Olympic tri, because that's the difference making the pack makes).

If I had it to do over again, I don't know that I'd actually focus on the 200. I think I would have NOT "focused" on swimming to any additional degree. What I would have done is what I did when I actually had the success in my career that I did have - I would have picked races with very hard bike/run combos and focused on winning those races. Kona was just never the race for me. But it was "Kona!" And I picked a really bad time to decide to race Kona; I took a huge hit in my swim when they split the male and female pros. Because the 1st pack (not off-the-front) female swimmers tended to be perfect pacers for me. 2012 - my first year in Kona - was the first year of split swim starts for male/female pros. That was a huge difference maker. I think in a mixed start, I made the 2nd group easily in 2012, and I probably came top-10. Shrinking the size of the swim in Kona from 100ish men and women to 50ish men made a huge difference to me. Kona was never a great race for me, but it was especially bad with a split swim.

I'm just not built for high-speed openers. Even with cycling, the delta between my absolute peak power and sustained anaerobic power is fairly low. Absolute peak of 1200w but I can do just about 800w for 1min. The pursuit is as short as I can race competitively. Like, some pursuiters can race the kilo competitively - like Ashton. But not me. I just don't have the physiology for it.

Sam's a LOT younger than I was. That's definitely a consideration when it comes to where his focus should lie. In my early 30's, with my build and physiology, it was probably a waste to focus on swimming. I should have been more like Kienle - doubled down on running. The time I put into running directly translated into improved run performance. Both speed and volume directly translated into triathlon success. Biking was more mixed; it was very specific riding that made me faster - mileage didn't do much but intensity did. With swimming, it didn't really matter much what I did. Speed, power, mileage. Nothing really changed. All the time I ended up putting into swimming was a waste, in hindsight. But of course, that's in hindsight. i didn't know that I wouldn't be able to do what Cunnama or Hoffman did. It seems obvious now, but I don' t know if it was obvious then. Maybe. Certainly I think I tried longer than I should have to become a substantially better swimmer. And maybe Sam will follow the Hoffman and Cunnama model. They were both a LOT slower than I was when they started. And they became clear front pack swimmers. Maybe that will be Sam. Guys with more "powerful" builds like Sam and Lionel probably are more suited to it, especially to the 200 speed aspect of it. Certainly they're built much more like Hoffman and Cunnama are.

But it's worth remembering that there really are two choices when it comes to how to tackle this particular issue. One is to work to become a much better swimmer. The other is to tailor your race schedule to races where the swim is less critical and to just be a good enough swimmer.

However, i will say that the lesson I took away from this - playing to your strengths and shoring up your weaknesses is a better approach than trying to fundamentally "change" or "eliminate" your weaknesses - has been by far the most impactful one for post-triathlon professional life. In my career since triathlon, I've put my energy into playing to my strengths. So, at least from that standpoint, it was a frustrating - but invaluable - experience.

I wish Sam the best in his quest to become a front pack swimmer. But I also believe you can make a career without it. You just have to pick the right races.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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good post !
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Lionel does a 1000 m (not 1000 yard!) time trial. Result: [scroll below the video, don't want to spoil it for ya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpLOyocQfQ

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11:57, and then 11:48 in a second back-to-back attempt.
Sam's was, as a reminder, 12:19 per 1000 yards (would work out to 13:28 per 1000 meters).

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Feb 26, 21 0:42
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, sub 12 min on 1000m, that's ITU level. Huge improvement from last year.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Frankly, I imagine it might be the squad he is swimming with now, but it is also attributable to the FORM goggles. I've been using them for a few weeks now, and they are a game changer in my eyes. To have the feedback of pace, efficiency, and effort right in front of you mid rep is an amazing thing to have in ones quiver.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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Lionel was also using a swim skin for both his attempts. Surely that gave him some advantage?
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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I assumed that was just a mistake in the title and meant 1000 yards, I didn't see him mention metres, but maybe I missed that. He was swimming in a 25 yard pool, so if he was aiming for 1000 metres, it would have been slightly over or under 1000.


kajet wrote:
Lionel does a 1000 m (not 1000 yard!) time trial. Result: [scroll below the video, don't want to spoil it for ya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpLOyocQfQ

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11:57, and then 11:48 in a second back-to-back attempt.
Sam's was, as a reminder, 12:19 per 1000 yards (would work out to 13:28 per 1000 meters).
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.

It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Engner66 wrote:
Wow, sub 12 min on 1000m, that's ITU level. Huge improvement from last year.

that's 10% slower than the average ITU guys (and 15% from the top ones). no way anyone could make it to the ITU with 18'/1500m scm
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [jacob2727] [ In reply to ]
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Also using it due to Challenge Miami water temp threshold of non wetsuit likely.

LS's is doing what he needs to do with the swim....get in a swim environment that allows daily growth. Just listening to him talk about the swim you can tell he's learning and getting there.....the times at this point are almost irrelevant.....his mindset shift has been what you want to see!

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
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You are correct, I know of a former ITU guy (made the Olympics twice) that I raced in juniors that had a 18 min 1500 m but it was LCM, he was an "average" ITU swimmer. Didn't see Sanders video, but it was mentioned he had a swimskin, and that it was SCY.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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So awesome to hear you like them! I work for them, so let me know if you ever have any questions and I can point you in the right direction:)
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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You´ll be seeing 1:10´s SCY in 6 weeks or so

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Feb 26, 21 7:24
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
Lionel does a 1000 m (not 1000 yard!) time trial. Result: [scroll below the video, don't want to spoil it for ya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpLOyocQfQ

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11:57, and then 11:48 in a second back-to-back attempt.
Sam's was, as a reminder, 12:19 per 1000 yards (would work out to 13:28 per 1000 meters).

So.... yeah. Yards, not meters. But Lionel is working hard. I think it's fun to root for your favorite athlete in this LS SL swim improvement quest, but trying to make a case that one is doing better than the other based on these vids is futile. For instance:

1) Sam's swim was at 5400 ft, sharing a super-narrow lane in a full pool making it very choppy.
2) LS is wearing a swim skin here, and is in a lane by himself in a mostly empty pool. Is he in Tuscon? so only 2,400 ft.
3) They have raced a couple times now and have always come out of the water together, right?

As far as I can tell, they are still tied.

I'm excited to see both of them have their hard work pay off.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.


It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.

It's actually a different pool - Oro Valley - and the last one was at the Aquabears pool - but it's 25 yards. Not to mention - and I love following this on the Form goggles app - he did 1000 TT, 500 at the same pace ending a 3250 workout - THEN the 11:48. Pretty good.

18:50 was the LCM 1500 pretty sure. Also pretty impressive.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
You´ll be seeing 1:10´s SCY in 6 weeks or so

11:48 is 1:10.8 - so aren't we seeing 1:10s now? ;)

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.


It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.

It's actually a different pool - Oro Valley - and the last one was at the Aquabears pool - but it's 25 yards. Not to mention - and I love following this on the Form goggles app - he did 1000 TT, 500 at the same pace ending a 3250 workout - THEN the 11:48. Pretty good.

18:50 was the LCM 1500 pretty sure. Also pretty impressive.

I stand corrected, going off my somewhat fuzzy memory it looked like the same pool to me.

I'd like to see what LS is truly capable of in the swim, he hasn't come close to cracking it yet. Might be lacking some flexibility, but he's a fairly powerfully built guy with a massive aerobic engine. If he can figure out how to harness that, he could be far faster than he is now.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
dfru wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
Yeah I'm 99% sure that's yards not meters. No one gets that much faster in a week. Still a much, much better effort for him though.


It's the same pool as the last TT effort, so unless they did some really fast renovations, that's yards.

Still, sub 12 is pretty solid - 1:11 per 100 or about 1:18 converted to metres. Not quite as good as he's gone in a standalone 1500 at that meet a couple of years ago (he was 18 highs, I think, LCM), but getting close.


It's actually a different pool - Oro Valley - and the last one was at the Aquabears pool - but it's 25 yards. Not to mention - and I love following this on the Form goggles app - he did 1000 TT, 500 at the same pace ending a 3250 workout - THEN the 11:48. Pretty good.

18:50 was the LCM 1500 pretty sure. Also pretty impressive.


I stand corrected, going off my somewhat fuzzy memory it looked like the same pool to me.

I'd like to see what LS is truly capable of in the swim, he hasn't come close to cracking it yet. Might be lacking some flexibility, but he's a fairly powerfully built guy with a massive aerobic engine. If he can figure out how to harness that, he could be far faster than he is now.

Agreed. If he's in a situation where he's got measuring sticks and the type of coaching that seems to be going on, he could get to the next level. It's so funny - Kienle has been swimming since he was like...9? And he gets away with swimming Lionel speeds without questions haha. I think Lionel will make strides for sure - hopefully with the stroke and then - he spoke of his lack of comfort with people around - translate that somehow to the open water - GR for a month before Kona? The nice thing is - I am sure DTD is all over this and they really seem to have a good solid plan in place now.

Fun stuff this - I love the transparency.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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1) Sam's swim was at 5400 ft, sharing a super-narrow lane in a full pool making it very choppy.
2) LS is wearing a swim skin here, and is in a lane by himself in a mostly empty pool. Is he in Tuscon? so only 2,400 ft.
3) They have raced a couple times now and have always come out of the water together, right?

As far as I can tell, they are still tied. //


Just looking at them from the cheap seats here, I agree they are almost the exact same in the pool water. Funny how just a couple things left out brought Lionel's swim back down to earth. No meters, swim skin, no all out 200 before hand, at sea level, and he is on the same half lap as Sam at the finish of a 1000 tt, probably wall touching together.


Those swims are still hanging onto 2nd pack for him, he needs to be at 1;06 pace or better to have any hope of a lead group back of the pack swim. And more so he needs a sub 1;59 200 really, hanging on once the group has settled down is quite easy as compared to actually making it in the first 400 or so..
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Those swims are still hanging onto 2nd pack for him, he needs to be at 1;06 pace or better to have any hope of a lead group back of the pack swim. And more so he needs a sub 1;59 200 really, hanging on once the group has settled down is quite easy as compared to actually making it in the first 400 or so..
2nd pack is extremely optimistic with those times even in average 70.3 fields. Perhaps with perfect open water execution, but fields are big nowadays and there are a lot of swimmers in that range.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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2nd pack is extremely optimistic with those times even in average 70.3 fields.//

Yes, one would have to have great OW skills to go with those times to "hang" onto 2nd pack groups. I think Lionel has gotten a lot better over the years in that regard, may even have snuck onto some of those bigger 2nd groups. Remember one year in Kona he spaced out, lost the 2nd group, then led the 3rd group for most the race. About the worst possible scenario in the swim for him, going harder and coming out a minute+ slower. I hate that when that happens...)-;


I'm not sure what is going on with him, these times are not nearly as good as his 18 high 1500LCM he swam years ago. Perhaps he is swimming tired now and has a break through sub 11 minute 1000 tt in him soon. That is about where Jordan was at his prime, and he was a solid 2nd pack swimmer on his good days.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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To me it looks like his hips aren't in it; he's just powering through with shoulders and kick but not connected. Sort of like how he runs, it isn't as fluid as some natural runners (but he has the engine to get results).

Also his walls are atrocious. I don't think he breaks the flags before surfacing even off the first wall. A guy with his leg strength needs to take advantage of that push off the wall.
Someone needs to explain to him that he can't produce as much force on the water as he can pushing off the wall, so he needs to maximize that push and then minimize the loss of speed (this is true for everyone).

Also how did a Sam Long thread get hijacked into an LS thread?

-----
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [Optimal_Adrian] [ In reply to ]
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Optimal_Adrian wrote:
To me it looks like his hips aren't in it; he's just powering through with shoulders and kick but not connected. Sort of like how he runs, it isn't as fluid as some natural runners (but he has the engine to get results).

Also his walls are atrocious. I don't think he breaks the flags before surfacing even off the first wall. A guy with his leg strength needs to take advantage of that push off the wall.
Someone needs to explain to him that he can't produce as much force on the water as he can pushing off the wall, so he needs to maximize that push and then minimize the loss of speed (this is true for everyone).

Also how did a Sam Long thread get hijacked into an LS thread?

Oh yeah, technically he's a complete mess. It's amazing to me that he can swim as fast as he does.

I'd want to give him some sets with a max number of strokes per length. Not to say that he has to race that way, but to force him to learn how to lengthen his stroke.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Feb 26, 21 11:29
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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One of the most important aspects of working with athletes at Lionel´s or Sam´s level whatever your coaching philosophy / heuristic / construct / dogma you mould it and fit it to the athlete, you do not fit the athlete to your schtick. Folks forget that sometimes or choose to ignore it.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Feb 26, 21 11:45
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [42point2] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for the meter/yard confusion - I’m pretty sure I saw “1000M” in the video title.
Either I am completely demented (possible) or the YouTube account admin made an error in the title first and then edited it (also possible).

Thanks to everyone who chimed in, especially @tilburs. If I knew this TT would attract this much ST attention, I would’ve opened
a new thread rather than hijacking this one :)

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Feb 26, 21 14:17
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
One of the most important aspects of working with athletes at Lionel´s or Sam´s level whatever your coaching philosophy / heuristic / construct / dogma you mould it and fit it to the athlete, you do not fit the athlete to your schtick. Folks forget that sometimes or choose to ignore it.

I feel like that’s true regardless of the athletes level.

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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I’m the opposite of an expert, but those look like pretty mediocre flip turns to me ... surfacing awfully quickly. Maybe some time lost there that’s not relevant to OWS? Sounds like a similar issue to a lot of mediocre swimmers ... struggles to manage his breath, comes out quick to breath.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
Sorry for the meter/yard confusion - I’m pretty sure I saw “1000M” in the video title.
Either I am completely demented (possible) or the YouTube account admin made an error in the title first and then edited it (also possible).

Thanks to everyone who chimed in, especially @tilburs. If I knew this TT would attract this much ST attention, I would’ve opened
a new thread rather than hijacking this one :)
It did say 1000M until this morning when the title got changed. Surprised it took that long but no one mentioned it in the comments last I had checked!

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
One of the most important aspects of working with athletes at Lionel´s or Sam´s level whatever your coaching philosophy / heuristic / construct / dogma you mould it and fit it to the athlete, you do not fit the athlete to your schtick. Folks forget that sometimes or choose to ignore it.

David - Honest question for you as his coach: In the video, Lionel talks a lot about how he went out too fast and then couldn't recover in that first 1000 in 11:57. After he does the 2nd 1000 in 11:48, he talks like he's made a "big discovery" that he had gone out too fast before. How can it be that as a 33 yr old athlete he had not "discovered" this before??? As I understand it, he's been running in races since high school and pacing is just as important in swimming as in running. I just don't understand why he is allegedly "learning" this in the pool today at age 33???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.

And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.

Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.

Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out. Again I think he describes swimming as “stupid” in that it’s so much more technique and focus than just “working harder” from one of his videos earlier in Dec I believe. So not even much coaching insight other than this is an athlete finally “figuring it out” and it’s fairly evident to come to that conclusion just listening to him talk,

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out. Again I think he describes swimming as “stupid” in that it’s so much more technique and focus than just “working harder” from one of his videos earlier in Dec I believe. So not even much coaching insight other than this is an athlete finally “figuring it out” and it’s fairly evident to come to that conclusion just listening to him talk,

And it took him what, 10 yrs of swimming to "finally" figure this out??? SMH...:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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On the face of it it comes across that way but no he´s known that for many years. Doesn´t mean sometimes one still gets it wrong thats human nature.

For example if I simply tell you once what the "dutch reach" is when exiting your car for cyclists and your own safety the next 100 times you exit your car do you do it 100 times?.... no. Sometimes you forget, sometimes you remember (because you had a close call perhaps) eventually it clicks and the length of eventually depends on context.

In all the 100 or so elite athletes I´ve worked with there´s absolutely plenty that "I´ve led to the waters edge and shown them how to drink and they still drink only when they realise they are thirsty" and there´s plenty that I´ve conveyed a message a multitude of times for performance purposes and it wasn´t until they went away worked with another coach conveying same message in different language did the penny drop, that´s coaching for you.

I am as guilty of the following as anyone else but when we start out coaching we crave knowledge to have all the answers to every question...... great coaches 20+ years down the line will have the depth and breadth of wisdom to realise that the position they are now afforded is to simply ask better questions.

Am pretty open about my thoughts on coaching as and when I can be because I feel knowledge and experience should be shared not immediately commoditised.

To circle back to your point and a later comment of "I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years"...... how many prior years of swimming had you done before "learning" that? And consequently have you paced every race perfectly?

It´s great to read plenty of folks breaking down what people like Lionel or Sam do getting all reductionist.... "just do X, just think Y..." however it is never that easy or simple.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out.


And it took him what, 10 yrs of swimming to "finally" figure this out??? SMH...:)


First, didn't he say the first bout was supposed to start at race take out effort, as a sort of a simulation?

Second, I love Lionel, but you know, he is the marketing champion of the world in addition to being a triathlon beast. In my view, he's trying to be candid, but also relatable. He can't always be both at the same time. We love him because he's a PRO with many of an age grouper's problems, from the seemingly insurmountable obstacle that is swimming to always changing his mind about training concepts, to calculating his fluid intake obsessively and then forgetting to drink in a race, to ridiculous race logistics errors (didn't theck the equipment before 70.3 Oceanside 2019, etc.). I'm guessing he is a little bit like this, but he's exaggerating it for entertainment value and relatability.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Feb 27, 21 1:44
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I’m not sure what your point is. His swim has been his limiter, he’s always sorta struggled with it. He’s likely always known what it takes and understood it, but it just seems like know he’s finally maturing enough as an athlete to get the whole picture. Who gives a fuck how long it took, isn’t the point that your seeing an athlete right in front of us “get it” the bigger deal.

That’s the entire journey for any athlete. I have an athlete who came to me broken from running too hard all the time (couldn’t run at all and had to bail on several races). I harped on him about slowing down certain runs and he still didn’t listen. Got a little niggle again but not as bad. He got a dog that can run with him on certain days and it keeps his run speed in check. A fucking dog was the answer for him to finally see that a little “easier” goes a long ways; even though he’s heard it for 18 months from me and “knows” he should run easier. He just didn’t cus every set was seemingly a “let’s compare this run to last week etc”. But now he laughs about it cus it’s helped a bunch. So I’m thinking it took a fucking dog from gf to have this real revelation.....thank god for the dog. Athletes journey is made up of all kinds of ups downs and sideways

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 27, 21 4:43
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)

Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

^^ and Don't overthink it. Relax.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
On the face of it it comes across that way but no he´s known that for many years. Doesn´t mean sometimes one still gets it wrong thats human nature.
For example if I simply tell you once what the "dutch reach" is when exiting your car for cyclists and your own safety the next 100 times you exit your car do you do it 100 times?.... no. Sometimes you forget, sometimes you remember (because you had a close call perhaps) eventually it clicks and the length of eventually depends on context.
In all the 100 or so elite athletes I´ve worked with there´s absolutely plenty that "I´ve led to the waters edge and shown them how to drink and they still drink only when they realise they are thirsty" and there´s plenty that I´ve conveyed a message a multitude of times for performance purposes and it wasn´t until they went away worked with another coach conveying same message in different language did the penny drop, that´s coaching for you.
I am as guilty of the following as anyone else but when we start out coaching we crave knowledge to have all the answers to every question...... great coaches 20+ years down the line will have the depth and breadth of wisdom to realise that the position they are now afforded is to simply ask better questions.
Am pretty open about my thoughts on coaching as and when I can be because I feel knowledge and experience should be shared not immediately commoditised.
To circle back to your point and a later comment of "I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years"...... how many prior years of swimming had you done before "learning" that? And consequently have you paced every race perfectly?
It´s great to read plenty of folks breaking down what people like Lionel or Sam do getting all reductionist.... "just do X, just think Y..." however it is never that easy or simple.

David - Thanks very much for your thoughtful and detailed response. Just for the record, I was in my 3rd year of swimming when I swam that one 200 free and no I haven't always paced every race or time trial perfectly since then, but most of the time I have, b/c the feeling of losing that one race in the last 10 yds has stayed with me for many years. Lionel is kind of like Steve Prefontaine ("The best pace is a suicide pace, and today is a good day to die...") in that he has so much talent he can go out too hard and hang on for the win most of the time. In any case, i can see how even elite guys have to relearn things from time to time. Thanks again for your openness. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

That is oversimplifying it a bit, since swimmers all know that swimming fast is pretty painful. You have to stay smooth while putting out a huge effort.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out.


And it took him what, 10 yrs of swimming to "finally" figure this out??? SMH...:)


First, didn't he say the first bout was supposed to start at race take out effort, as a sort of a simulation?

Second, I love Lionel, but you know, he is the marketing champion of the world in addition to being a triathlon beast. In my view, he's trying to be candid, but also relatable. He can't always be both at the same time. We love him because he's a PRO with many of an age grouper's problems, from the seemingly insurmountable obstacle that is swimming to always changing his mind about training concepts, to calculating his fluid intake obsessively and then forgetting to drink in a race, to ridiculous race logistics errors (didn't theck the equipment before 70.3 Oceanside 2019, etc.). I'm guessing he is a little bit like this, but he's exaggerating it for entertainment value and relatability.



That's an interesting take on this and a viewpoint that I would never have thought of, being a bit overly literally minded myself. In any case, it's good to have a nice swim debate thread for a change of pace from the multitude of bike gear threads. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

That is oversimplifying it a bit, since swimmers all know that swimming fast is pretty painful. You have to stay smooth while putting out a huge effort.

Yes, it’s simplified. But as they say, start simple and build to complex. For someone with fitness like LS, he has a lot to gain by not “fighting” the water or “forcing” it. My best times are all when I swim the smoothest, and in open water when I give in and let the conditions dictate my technique and stroke. Easy in this context really isn’t about the effort level, it’s about keeping things simple.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.


That is oversimplifying it a bit, since swimmers all know that swimming fast is pretty painful. You have to stay smooth while putting out a huge effort.


Yes, it’s simplified. But as they say, start simple and build to complex. For someone with fitness like LS, he has a lot to gain by not “fighting” the water or “forcing” it. My best times are all when I swim the smoothest, and in open water when I give in and let the conditions dictate my technique and stroke. Easy in this context really isn’t about the effort level, it’s about keeping things simple.

Got it. The thing that kind of bugs me is when guys trying to learn to swim, or to improve, say that "swimming is just all technique". Umm, no, it is not ALL technique, you've also got to put in a few million or so yards to develop swim specific strength and endurance. As Jason has said many times, swimming is both technique and fitness.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Such a great perspective to have and thanks for sharing and being so open.

So many coaches could and should read that post a few times.

Pre sydney (for qualifying for and then racing there) we did sets that really helped (at the time) get folks to be in that front group.

They looked something like this:

(post warm up of course)

4 (or eventually) 6 x 50 on short rest interval ( think :40 or :45 sec LCM at altitude at the otc) with the goal of holding around 31 or 32 sec. Anything slower was failure.
Follow up that last 50 with a 200m max swim.

In the spirit of your theory (which i totally agree) looking at the athlete first... LS doing 1000s for time only really trains him for that pace. And THAT pace he needs to be holding is obv faster. His engine is unreal... folks could only dream of having. IMO he needs to be able to do sets like the above to get into a group that would eventually settle to a usable pace for him.

Anyways, thats my .02

all the best

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [daved] [ In reply to ]
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daved wrote:
Such a great perspective to have and thanks for sharing and being so open.

So many coaches could and should read that post a few times.

Pre sydney (for qualifying for and then racing there) we did sets that really helped (at the time) get folks to be in that front group.

They looked something like this:

(post warm up of course)

4 (or eventually) 6 x 50 on short rest interval ( think :40 or :45 sec LCM at altitude at the otc) with the goal of holding around 31 or 32 sec. Anything slower was failure.
Follow up that last 50 with a 200m max swim.

In the spirit of your theory (which i totally agree) looking at the athlete first... LS doing 1000s for time only really trains him for that pace. And THAT pace he needs to be holding is obv faster. His engine is unreal... folks could only dream of having. IMO he needs to be able to do sets like the above to get into a group that would eventually settle to a usable pace for him.

Anyways, thats my .02

all the best

daved

Look at his swims in the Form goggles app. Pretty revealing as to what Lionel is doing swim wise - the 1000s aren't training I don't think - they are just tests to see where he is at. His workouts have nothing like this...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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im not sure i understand your post and have not looked through the goggle app.

my simple point is (and maybe you are saying the same) 1000s for time dont expose him to nor create the ability to go faster than 110s.

And the only way to go faster than 110s per 100 is do 100s (or shorter) at a faster pace.

again, we could be doing the same.

PS on my last post is that we would also switch the format up and do the 200s first and then try to hold much faster pace 50s.. simulating the "feeling" that I think LS was talking about which is that lactate overload that he feels trying to crush the first 200.

ok.. anyways, have a great day all
daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [daved] [ In reply to ]
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The app goes thru all of the workouts he has been doing.

It's basically what you are saying and he's definitely working at paces faster to much faster than 1:12s. The videos only showed the test for his sprint tri over a month ago - then another 1000/500/1000 for time last week.

I think an important part that Lionel came up with was how he can swim the same pace comfortably or very uncomfortably at a large cost. If he can swim slightly faster and make the pack he's made for the last 2 years (I think Daytona was an anomaly to be honest) with less metabolic cost - his bike run will be even stronger and give him a chance.

But in the end - it appears that the swim workouts with the Aquabears are paying off and he is doing the fast work for sure. You can basically go back in the app and look at every swim he's done since Daytona - it's pretty rad actually!

Today might be the day for a fast 200 with 50s after in the pool for me - thanks for the inspiration!

Have a great day!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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I love it! and you are welcome!

have a go.
As I have shared in the feb (and now march) fish thread, I am doing the same.

I have recruited one of the fastest swimmers out here in the boston area to do ONLY speed work with me every thursday.

I shared our set from last week. And we have yet to decide what this thursday is going to be. But even after just one super hard/fast (ish) set from last week, my swim today was exponentially more fun. I had gears back that I had trained away by doing 5 and 6k swims at stupid slow paces. just getting yards in to keep my feel basically as we start to exit both the pandemic shut downs and winter here.

Have a great swim today. Lemme know how it goes.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [daved] [ In reply to ]
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Totally get that!

I've been, like many, with limited time in the pool but have actually swam 4-5 times a week all year (wasn't in the pool at all the last three years, basically) and have been doing lots of speed. Even paddles and fins at hard efforts over 50/100s and such. 50s off the block, etc and while I am swimming between 2200-3000 it's transforming my swim for sure!

I'm almost at the point of getting my fast friends out to try to follow them for 25 on their hard 50s haha. But that's also really fun and helpful with racing...

Thanks for the insight and I will let you know how it goes!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [daved] [ In reply to ]
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daved wrote:

I have recruited one of the fastest swimmers out here in the boston area to do ONLY speed work with me every thursday.

How did you get Dean to agree to that?
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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Lol.
I should say one of the fastest “masters” swimmers in the area.
Not Dean. He has higher goals. But trust me when I say the guy I swim w is freakin fast!

He is also a highly successful “amateur” ows

Daved

Ps. Dean could get his too if he wants to show up w us! Ha (I’m joking)
Tho I do think I could help Dean w his starts!! SMH

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know how you guys don't get confused by swimming in 25 yard pools and 25/50m pools Especially when discussing pace, time cycles etc.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
tilburs wrote:
One of the most important aspects of working with athletes at Lionel´s or Sam´s level whatever your coaching philosophy / heuristic / construct / dogma you mould it and fit it to the athlete, you do not fit the athlete to your schtick. Folks forget that sometimes or choose to ignore it.


David - Honest question for you as his coach: In the video, Lionel talks a lot about how he went out too fast and then couldn't recover in that first 1000 in 11:57. After he does the 2nd 1000 in 11:48, he talks like he's made a "big discovery" that he had gone out too fast before. How can it be that as a 33 yr old athlete he had not "discovered" this before??? As I understand it, he's been running in races since high school and pacing is just as important in swimming as in running. I just don't understand why he is allegedly "learning" this in the pool today at age 33???

Yeah that is odd. This is why we wear $1000 sports watches, to help with our pacing in training. He even has goggles that show him his pace! Any TT, s/b/r you will always have a tendency to head out too fast as you feel great, why is he not using a time alert to keep him on pace? If I want to sit on 1.24 min/100m pace for a 1km TT, I would set my watch to vibrate every 21s (in a 25m pool). If there is no alert, guaranteed I'd go out at 1.20 pace for the first 200m feeling like it was slow...
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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In Nashville we have all 3 but 25 yards is the most common. It really isn’t that difficult to tell a 25 yard pool from a 25 meter pool if you know your paces...a 10% difference in time is noticeable.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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JoelO wrote:
In Nashville we have all 3 but 25 yards is the most common. It really isn’t that difficult to tell a 25 yard pool from a 25 meter pool if you know your paces...a 10% difference in time is noticeable.

I mean when you're discussing pace. I've been watching Sanders videos for 3 years and always thought he was quoting metres as he would simply refer to his pace as 1.10 pace which I thought was impressive. Only realised in a recent video he wasn't talking about mins/100m. And I assumed he'd be swimming in a 50m pool, not a 25 yard pool!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Part of the reason he is struggling with pacing is because he’s using the tech and not developing his feel for pace.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [daved] [ In reply to ]
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Did the set as 500 warm up with fins - then three time thru - 200 hard pull on 3:00 followed by 6x50 on :50 swim steady hard - great set actually. That one translates well to 4-5-6 times and that's a lot of good swimming!

Thanks for the idea - always fun to do something different, but I can see that one becoming a staple.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Back to Sam - haha

He said another TT for him today - in Tucson no less - 200 TT followed by 1000 TT - should be interesting to see where he is at. Looks like his first workout with the Aquabears was a little slower over the 75s so should be interesting where his times and improvements are compared to LS.

I love that these guys share- especially because there's a certain ego that they have that being honest about their swim times - they aren't that impressive really - but they are not doing the hard yards and trying their best. I just want to see where Sam ends up!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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He said another TT for him today - in Tucson no less - 200 TT followed by 1000 TT - should be interesting to see where he is at.//

YEs, will be fun to see where he is at right now. Just from the altitude drop I would expect at least a 20 second drop, anything more would be a nice indicator that his training is going well. That or he just plain had a great day and was rested a bit more than before...Predictions??


I will say a 2;09/11;56
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I was thinking 2:10 and 12:00 so we are close...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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From a IG comment that Sam responded to a person with a guess of 2:10 / 11:49 and Sam responded "pretty darn close" just a few mins ago. Haven't seen the official splits.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the update, looks like I might win the guessing pool!!! OF course there only seem to be two guesses... (-;

I hope it is not much faster though, I still want to attempt his time, maybe get one of them...
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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My daughter is a swimmer and she hates distance but did a 1000 one time in 11:41. We have a young lady staying with us for the next 3 months - I asked her about her 1000 PR...10:00.xx...

Kids are insane haha.

I did figure my guesses being slightly over yours would mean I lose!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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Hey,
Glad you like it! and I appreciate the feedback and being open...

Good luck! Keep at it.
I have speed set #2 tomorrow (not w Dean but if he shows up he better be ready for zero competition and a recovery swim for him!) ha...

Good guesses Monty... I just spent jan in colorado and I LOVE COMING BACK TO SEA LEVEL and swimming. There is just nothing like it.

all the best,

DaveD

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Thanks for the update, looks like I might win the guessing pool!!! OF course there only seem to be two guesses... (-;

I hope it is not much faster though, I still want to attempt his time, maybe get one of them...

2:13 / 12:02

I've been to the Orro pool a few times...man it is nice.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
Part of the reason he is struggling with pacing is because he’s using the tech and not developing his feel for pace.

Tim

hehe. Probably true.
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
monty wrote:
Thanks for the update, looks like I might win the guessing pool!!! OF course there only seem to be two guesses... (-;

I hope it is not much faster though, I still want to attempt his time, maybe get one of them...

2:13 / 12:02

I've been to the Orro pool a few times...man it is nice.

I couldn't do that right now. Haven't swum since March 2020.... :-(

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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From the videos I have watched I don’t think he uses the pace from the goggles and actually is trying to go by feel. That’s why he did the 1k/500/1k again cus he went out too hard the first time.

I think the form goggles are more for running time and pace when he’s done not actually using it to actual pace each lap. More post swim data analysis not during the set.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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