kick pull kick
head dives down, pop your hips up, don't just let them float up.

When I was swim coaching we did a lot of 1 arm fly into regular fly, lots of 100 IM's, lots of 12.5 fly/12.5 free, lots of 50s doing IM order work (fly/back, back/breast, breast/free, free/fly). Lots of fly kicking on your back both w/ and w/out fins.

(i remember one time one of the kids was being a real ass in practice, the other coach rearranged all the lanes, threw a pair of fins down and told the kid 1000 fly k on your back or you never swim here again. It was LCM) It was all I could do to not lol while working with the other group.

Unless you were specializing in fly we rarely had the kids do anything longer than 100 fly at a time, maybe some 200's here and there. it would be something like 4x(4x200 1 fly 1choice stroke/free & 2 free). we had a lot of sets that may be 5x(5x100 2 fly, 2 free, 1 25fast/75ez)

It's an O2 intensive stroke, the most demanding stroke out there.

Another thing is do free with a fly kick. It'll help with your free timing and you'll get a feel for where to place the kick both in free and fly

hope that helps

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

He stated earlier that it wasn't an option.

Was merely using my terrible sense of humour to sandwich my (I think) good advice! I actually choose to do fly as my number 1 non free believe it or not!

Thanks for this tip. I spent time this morning working on the various one-arm to two-arm drills people here recommended for me, and they went quite well, but when I tried to move down the pool just using the kick, I was basically just humping the water and going nowhere. This drill sounds like it might help me to strengthen my kick and get some of the timing.

Thanks for the tip about timing. With respect to the head position - I actually found this morning that if I didn't get my head down before swinging my arms over the water, it hurt my neck (I'm not very flexible through the shoulders), so I was looking downwards when I breathed because that felt more comfortable.

I have three main reasons for trying to learn to fly: first, it looks like really good fun to be able to move through the water that way and I want to get that feeling; second, lots of people have told me it will help my freestyle swimming if I can improve my fly, because it will help my feel for the water, timing etc; third, I think that trying to learn something new is a valuable activity, especially as you get older. My workout this morning was mentally and physically demanding and I got a kick out of that. Also, what's "maccies", is that McDonalds where you come from? (Here we say "Macky D's", so I'm just guessing.)

Yeah McDonald’s in parts of the UK, there’s one directly out the window of my local pool, I see every time I swim in that direction haha! It’s great to be learning something new, particularly fly, and you’re 100% right in everything you’ve said. Just providing a bit of my terrible sense of humour with all the why, WHY! Hope you smash getting the stroke down : )

Hey Monty normal fly is 2 kicks and one pull (so the second kick goes with the pull) are you saying, kick going in, another kick while gliding, then the pull+kick (so three kicks one pull)?
No it is not 3 kicks, just the two. You throw your hands forward and then just let them glide there, not immediate catch. While they are gliding you put in two kicks and after the 2nd kick you then pull. The catch is not a normal one, and pretty weak too since you are starting from a stopped and static position, but this is what gives you so much rest. And that enables you to do much, much longer sets of actual two are fly too. The one arm drills are fine, but they really are so close to just freestyle that it doesn't do much to strengthen yourself for actual fly. I could do one arm all day long, but it just doesnt mimic the stress real double arm fly puts on you..Kick, kick, pull gets about as close as you can without forcing you to fall apart too quickly..

We used to do 4/1 to extend fly, because the normal fly cycle is 2 kicks per arm stroke (unless you're Tom Malchow who only did 1). The problem with this is you get out of the flow of the stroke, and end up having to muscle it a lot because there's no connection, and you really have to watch your technique so you don't just turn it into dolphin dives.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Agree with Monty. I even stretched it out to 4 kicks and one pull. I think that teaches you to be more efficient until your skill set gets better. And for old men like me easier on your shoulders.

I would add that I really like to also do a single 25yds dolphin kick with a stroke count of two arm, rt. arm, Lt. arm, two arm rt. arm lt. arm. That drill is similar to to freestyle with dolphin kick but for me keeps it more like a butterfly rhythm. I like to throw 1 of those 25yard efforts in every 100 or 200 yards just to keep 500s and 200s repeats more interesting.

Summer Sanders also did one kick.

My bigger kick is during the catch phase and the smaller snappy one as my hands exit to help keep my stroke rate up. My son seems to also do this, not sure if he was coached to do it or just does it... with the pandemic breaks and some growth and strength the next time he swims a long course 100 Fly he'll probably be in the 1:05 to 1:07 range, maybe faster. This is from a year ago (lane 2) and 5 inches shorter. It was a 4 second drop from a few weeks prior and faster than his SCM times from the December before.

https://www.instagram.com/...igshid=1xmvhyj50jw3i



Keep your eyes peeled for the name Maxine Clark to start showing up on Swimswam. Just before lock down # 1 she went 59 for 100 Free and 1:05 for 100 Fly LCM, 11 at the time. Did 58/1:03 SCM on limited training in the fall before lock down 2 after turning 12.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

That's huge improvement by your son, congrats. I wish I had learned when I was a kid; learning new skills in mid-life is so much harder.

A couple of years ago I finished quite high up at Canadian nationals for the sprint distance and as I approached the finish line, the announcer said I was "leading the silver wave"; my kids thought that was pretty funny.

I saw this post and thought, oooh learn to swim fly, I wonder if he's tried 3-3-3 easiest way to practice the timing of the butterfly stroke for longer swims until you got it down. Then, I thought JansoninHalifax has probably already recommended it, because its great advice.

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I swim fast because I'm afraid of sharks.

So with 4 kicks to one pull ratio, you just skip the second pull and glide in a streamline till you pull on the 4th kick or do you glide in a superman position (fly pre catch hand spacing).

I have done a variant of this where I do 4 kicks but once my arms go in I immediatly pull and end up with arms on side (like underwater position on the breast stroke pull out after the butterfly pull. Then kick for two more with arms on side and then throw arms forward on the fourth kick, pull again on the 1st, then kick arms on side 2nd and 3rd (like a porpoise) and then throw arms forward on the 4th (not sure if I am explaing it that well). But with that pattern I can go quite solid (25 of that drill, 25m actual fly and keep going for 8 lengths).

Reading all these comments from triathletes telling you how to swim fly is absolutely hilarious.

I can typically teach someone how to swim fly in 5-10 minutes. It isn't very complicated. Everyone telling you to do 3 arms left 3 arms right then do the hokey pokey and ta da has no idea how to actually teach someone how to swim butterfly. Using the method below I have taught everyone from 5 year olds to adults how to swim fly.

There are three motions to butterfly. Anyone who is telling you differently is trying too hard to make it complicated.

Here is what to do:
1) Push off the wall in a streamline, body still, eyes down.
2) With your arms completely straight, move your arms out to about 11 and 1 (like on a clock).
3) With your arms completely straight, and your body COMPLETELY STILL, do a full arm circle (like a normal butterfly stroke). Don't breathe. Not yet. Do not make any movement with your stomach, legs, etc. Don't try to kick a bunch. Just an arm circle at the same time with arms completely straight, returning back to the 11 and 1 position.
4) After your arms have gone around and you are back to the original position, push your butt up in the air a little, then push your butt underwater a little.

The entire thing can be boiled down to arms around, butt up, butt down.

To start out, completely separate the movements. Body still. Arms at 11 and 1. Do arm circle, with arms straight, both underneath you and over the water. Try to keep them low to the surface. When arms come back to the front, push butt up for one second, push butt down for one second. You should be back in the starting position.

As you do this a few times, you can reduce the time between movements. To breathe, lift your head as soon as you start your pull and get your head back down before your arms come around.

Do not try to add the double kick until you have mastered these movements. If you want a quick video lesson, I am happy to help.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

Reading all these comments from triathletes telling you how to swim fly is absolutely hilarious.//

To be fair to many of the posters here giving advice, some are ex olympians(in swimming) and at least a 1/2 dozen others are national champions or all Americans in masters swimming too. So I wouldn't discount some of the advice here just because it is a triathlon forum...

And to be honest, being those things doesn’t mean you can teach someone how to swim fly. You don’t have a concert pianist teach a new piano player.

The thread started by asking how to swim, and that the poster can’t make it 25 yards without a major struggle. I don’t feel the need to validate my thoughts based on my experience both in swimming and in coaching and teaching, but doing 3-3-3, talking about how many kicks per pull and the timing of the catch isn’t going to fix the issues of not being able to go the length of the pool. Starting from scratch, making sure body position is good and teaching the rhythm of the stroke from the beginning will go much further than force feeding fly by swimming with fins, doing kick drills, or one arm strokes.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

Absolutely about timing. I have just started swimming fly again, about 14-15 months post double shoulder surgery. My timing and stroke mechanics are so ingrained from the thousands of strokes and hours over my swimming career. In college, more than once, we did a 3,000y fly set...don't do that, that's part of what ruined my shoulders, surely. I swam distance and 200 fly in college (occasionally 400IM when just finishing would guarantee a few points). While my flexibility and durability for fly will still take some work, I feel great for a 50. Just like anything else, it's about TITS...time in the "saddle."

Edit to say definitely you can learn a lot watching on youtube and by filming your stroke if you can't have a coach.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

don't do that. the recovery phase of fly is dependent on the catch/pull phase. If you want to isolate the catch and pull, then just do an underwater revovery by sneaking your hands back to the top under your body. Trying to recover without flow is sure to mess you up.

4/1 hold your pre-catch position.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

OK I have done it with the underwater recovery like during the breaststroke pull out. I think that is what you mean?

Y'know how in ITU racing, the bike is just the long transition between the swim and the run? Fly for me is just the transition from the blocks to the rest of the IM race. Necessary evil.

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***

....you can't win the 400IM on the fly leg, but you can certainly lose it :-)

Exactly.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

OK I am "on it"....as soon as my communist government around here gets us outta lockdown and I actually get to swim again. Theoretically 2 more weeks before pools can re open, but because of all the ramp in numbers before Xmas and New Years, I think we're gonna be locked up for 6 more weeks not 2 more, so its going to be more running, rowing machine and XC skiing (the latter if we get some more snow around here)....really don't feel like getting on the trainer.

OK keep the advice coming on the learn to fly thread. As I only learned in 2017 at age 52 and on my third season, everything from all of you guys is helpful (ps. I did not get the 25x400IM big day in this year, because of 60 min pool times in the lead up to Xmas and the 4 hrs slot we had rented was on 26 Dec, the first day of lockdown....so was in shape and got locked out by 1 day)