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SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice?
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My new year's resolution is to put more time into my swim (for as long as possible) and one of the things I want to do is learn how to swim butterfly. At the moment, I can swim 25m of fly, but the last 5-10 metres are pretty ugly. My heart rate maxes out and it just feels so hard, I know I am not doing it right. So I am starting by using one-arm fly to try to get the motion and rhythm a bit, and I can swim 100s of one-arm fly fairly easily.

What is the next step after one-arm fly? Is there a progression or do I just need to swim 25s of fly and take the rest I need to be ready to do another? Are there dryland exercises that will help, maybe using bands? There seem to be hundreds of online resources for freestyle but much more limited when it comes to fly...

Thanks for any advice.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if it's an option for you but if I wanted to learn fly correctly I'd have a coach on deck.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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fly is all about rhythm and kick timing

from 1 arm, progress to 3-3-3 (3 left, 3 right, 3 full)

don't rush the stroke. make it long and make sure your getting your head down.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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As already mentioned coordination and timing is key in butterfly. You also need a minimum of strength but you can always compensate at the beginning by using fins until you nail most of the aspects of the stroke.

It’s a bit long video (17 minutes) but it summarizes the key elements...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQpFhM18zu4

Good luck!
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
fly is all about rhythm and kick timing

from 1 arm, progress to 3-3-3 (3 left, 3 right, 3 full)

don't rush the stroke. make it long and make sure your getting your head down.

What Jason said. When I learned what helped me the most was when I finally started generating propulsion from my core to my quads to shins to feet. Once I got to that, it really changed how winded I was getting. Lats and arms kind of followed the core. Jason I am down to 28 dolphin kicks crossing the 25m pool from push off vs 40 when I orginally tried this.

I would also google "Chloe Sutton Butterfly". She really breaks it down well in her youtube videos (makes it look way too easy)
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
I don't know if it's an option for you but if I wanted to learn fly correctly I'd have a coach on deck.
My master's swim club got shut down before Xmas, so this isn't an option unfortunately. I'm mostly looking for ideas on drills or exercises I can do to get smoother at the motion (and maybe keep my heart rate below 150 while swimming it).
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
fly is all about rhythm and kick timing

from 1 arm, progress to 3-3-3 (3 left, 3 right, 3 full)

don't rush the stroke. make it long and make sure your getting your head down.

Thanks for this drill. Is it true that you are supposed to face downwards even when breathing? The one good resource I found online (Mark Foster's advice) said that you should face downwards throughout the stroke. I definitely was looking forward to breathe, so this is something I need to improve. You must have to clear the water by quite a lot to be able to look down and inhale air, not water.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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So would you recommend fly-kick sets as a way to improve? Do you use a kickboard or do you do the kick with arms in the streamline position?
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Use short fins a lot until you find the rhythm - not long fins, they slow down the kick cycle too much.

Do fly kick on your back with and without fins, arms up and arms at your sides. Use your snorkel (you have a snorkel right? right?) and kick on your stomach arms at your sides to find the rhythm.

One arm drills like Jason mentioned, progressing to 3-3-3 or 2-2-2.

Stay low and push your chin forward to breathe, breathe earlier in your stroke than you think.so your head is going down as your hands are striking.

Using your snorkel on you stomach, and hands up, push your chest down and hands out to initiate your catch, repeat this motion like a scull. once you've mastered that, do 3 scull/press, then a full stroke.

good luck.

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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Fly is awesome fun.

Good luck.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
fly is all about rhythm and kick timing

from 1 arm, progress to 3-3-3 (3 left, 3 right, 3 full)

don't rush the stroke. make it long and make sure your getting your head down.

Thanks for this drill. Is it true that you are supposed to face downwards even when breathing? The one good resource I found online (Mark Foster's advice) said that you should face downwards throughout the stroke. I definitely was looking forward to breathe, so this is something I need to improve. You must have to clear the water by quite a lot to be able to look down and inhale air, not water.

It's not necessary to keep your face pointing down throughout the stroke, as long as you get it down by the time your arms get about halfway through the recovery. lifting your head lets your shoulders stay a little lower.

the scull drill is a good one too.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Keep it simple. All of the above suggestions will probably work for you, but they all appear to complicate the process.

Continue as you have been, just do 90% of you fly work with fins. When you can manage 25, turn and focus on 50. The fins allow us to experience the kinesthetic awareness and fluidity of the stroke. They make it fun too... Until you want to drop the fins.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [MTL] [ In reply to ]
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MTL wrote:
As already mentioned coordination and timing is key in butterfly. You also need a minimum of strength but you can always compensate at the beginning by using fins until you nail most of the aspects of the stroke.

It’s a bit long video (17 minutes) but it summarizes the key elements...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQpFhM18zu4

Good luck!

Thanks for that - I watched the video during my lunch break and will definitely revisit it because there was a lot of good information there. It sounds as though I need to do kicking drills (front, side, back), one-arm fly (side-breathing then front-breathing) then one-arm to two-arm drills (3-3-3 to 2-2-2 to 1-1-1 seems to be the progression). Then I need to swim 25s until I can hit the turn and come back down the pool.

I liked the part about "getting as much of your body to move as far as possible over the water", it really does sound like flying.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I did fly kick sets no board....5 kicks head down one small breast stroke skull to breath, 5 more repeat repeat repeat. Also on my side left arm over head, right arm on side belly button pointing to left wall of the pool 4 kicks and breath on the fourth. Come back the other 25 facing the other way.

But you have really smart guys chiming in with Jason and Tallswimmer (I think 4th US Olympic Trials 400IM 2004 for Athens, and you're up against Phelps and Lochte etc to make the team)
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
Use short fins a lot until you find the rhythm - not long fins, they slow down the kick cycle too much.

Do fly kick on your back with and without fins, arms up and arms at your sides. Use your snorkel (you have a snorkel right? right?) and kick on your stomach arms at your sides to find the rhythm.

One arm drills like Jason mentioned, progressing to 3-3-3 or 2-2-2.

Stay low and push your chin forward to breathe, breathe earlier in your stroke than you think.so your head is going down as your hands are striking.

Using your snorkel on you stomach, and hands up, push your chest down and hands out to initiate your catch, repeat this motion like a scull. once you've mastered that, do 3 scull/press, then a full stroke.

good luck.

I watched Phelps underwater. His head is fully "up" with nose and eyes facing opposite pool wall before his shoulders break water surface and soon as his shoulders break surface from the natural undulation of body, he has the lowest head position breathing and literally his head is already starting to go down into the water with eyes point to bottom of pool just after his hands leave the water and start the recovery. He ends up diving head first exactly like a dolphin and then the arms follow to go into the water and catch. For the longest time, my head was up breathing way late as my arms were already moving forward in the air. I think I am getting closer to the correct timing, but it also seems to require way more contribution from the core and legs (arms following core and legs vs core and legs lead by arms)
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Fly is awesome fun.

I did a masters program a few years ago. We didn't do much butterfly, but when we did I swam freestyle. Finally, one day at the end of class the coach made me do 50 fly. After watching me he said he would call that butterstruggle, not butterfly, and never made me swim fly again.

Awesome fun isn't how I would describe butterfly.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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200IM and 8th in ‘04, 4th in ‘08 😉

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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One of the main struggles w/ fly is learning to relax. Butterfly is a powerful stroke that activates a lot of tension, which causes you to burn out quickly.

Tips (not already mentioned)
-remember that the pull is a double, early vertical forearm pull. Open a small window in the water with your hands for your head to fit through and then try to get a double EVF.
-Try to keep your shoulders near the surface. Drive your head down with your shoulders up. This creates hip movement in the opposite direction of your head. Head down, butt up. Butt down, head up.
-Just like in freestyle, the kick is hip-driven, not knee driven.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
One of the main struggles w/ fly is learning to relax. Butterfly is a powerful stroke that activates a lot of tension, which causes you to burn out quickly.

Tips (not already mentioned)
-remember that the pull is a double, early vertical forearm pull. Open a small window in the water with your hands for your head to fit through and then try to get a double EVF.
-Try to keep your shoulders near the surface. Drive your head down with your shoulders up. This creates hip movement in the opposite direction of your head. Head down, butt up. Butt down, head up.
-Just like in freestyle, the kick is hip-driven, not knee driven.

Thanks for the tips - it sounds as though a lot of the "fly skills" will be transferable to my freestyle swimming. I'll use "relax" as my mantra in the pool tomorrow.
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I just saw your thread here and I cannot believe no one has actually told you the answer yet. It is called kick, kick, pull. This is how you begin to strengthen your fly muscles and stroke, and enables you to do many, many more yards than regular fly.

So what is it? You do a regular fly stroke, but instead of pulling right after the catch, you just leave your arms out front extended, while you do two dolphin kicks. Once the 2nd is done, then you pull through and do it over and over. The extension gives you so much rest, that it is no where near as taxing as regular fly without that pause. And over time you can get that type of drill pretty fast, I can do 100's in the low to mid 1;30's now, all day long on a 2 minute interval. For comparison I could do one 100 of regular fly, and need a lot of extra time to recover for another one. And even then, I would tap out at a few repeats and be totally trashed.

Now at some point all the kick, kick, pull will enable me to do more real fly, which is the goal for all of us..
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I just saw your thread here and I cannot believe no one has actually told you the answer yet. It is called kick, kick, pull. This is how you begin to strengthen your fly muscles and stroke, and enables you to do many, many more yards than regular fly.

So what is it? You do a regular fly stroke, but instead of pulling right after the catch, you just leave your arms out front extended, while you do two dolphin kicks. Once the 2nd is done, then you pull through and do it over and over. The extension gives you so much rest, that it is no where near as taxing as regular fly without that pause. And over time you can get that type of drill pretty fast, I can do 100's in the low to mid 1;30's now, all day long on a 2 minute interval. For comparison I could do one 100 of regular fly, and need a lot of extra time to recover for another one. And even then, I would tap out at a few repeats and be totally trashed.

Now at some point all the kick, kick, pull will enable me to do more real fly, which is the goal for all of us..

Hey Monty normal fly is 2 kicks and one pull (so the second kick goes with the pull) are you saying, kick going in, another kick while gliding, then the pull+kick (so three kicks one pull)?
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Try to practice fly without the arms first, and with minimal leg kick. It's all about learning how to use your whole body for the fly motion. Just gently go down the pool by pushing your chest in the water and out, let your legs kick naturally out of this motion without giving it too much. Then once you feel like you have that whole body movement down pat, try to add a little bit more 'kick' at the end for more propulsion. Then work on progressive drills to introduce arm movements in the whole body motion. First by doing a one arm movement within the proper rhythm every now and then. Then do the same with simultaneous arms. But often go back to the basic drill (no arms limited kick) whenever you feel tension or it becomes a bit too laboured. Then go again with the sequence.

Fly will never be an 'easy' swim style, but this will make it much easier for short distances at least (25 meters or more).
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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A few others have mentioned it here, but I’ll say it again for emphasis: Breath timing is critical. Most beginners, and many veterans, breathe too late. If you’re trying to bring you’r arms through the peak of the recovery phase with your face forward and your head high, your hips will drop, your forward momentum will stall, and you’ll have wasted energy lifting your upper body out of the water that could otherwise be used to drive you forward. As you’re pulling, your head should be coming out of the water, and as your arms come over, your head should be going back to a neutral (face down) position. If you’re head is going back in chin-first, you’re doing it very wrong.

There’s a very common misconception that a good butterfly stroke has a lot of porpoise-like vertical motion. Its not true, especially the above-water part of the stroke. The less you pull your body out of the water, the better. To that end, squeeze your shoulder blades on recovery to help keep the top half of the stroke flatter.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Why are you learning fly? Why would you do it to yourself? WHY?

in all seriousness its 100% about timing, and feeling the water. You need to smoothly progress through the stroke, and remain relaxed, because as soon as you tense up fly goes to pot. It's also crucial to breathe as your arms exit the water, and to have your head back down to the neutral position by the time your arms are entering the water. If your head is up whilst your arms are entering the water it comes down to sheer force of will and brute strength to keep moving yourself along.

Once again, WHY! there's so many other things you can do in swimming, you could do sculling, mushroom floats or go to the maccies across the road!
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Re: SWIM: Learning to fly - any advice? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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"in all seriousness its 100% about timing, and feeling the water"



x2. So often, you see really good young swimmers -- naturals, and strong -- doing the oddest double-kick-pulls up and down the lanes until the timing kicks in. I bet the feel and timing for fly is like cornering in biking, or doing competition dives. The mechanics don't quite capture what it should feel like.

In that vein, try this:

In the shallow end, do dolphin dives while simulating the arm and kick movements that would propel you while actually swimming fly. Just jump-and-dive down the pool. Maybe (maybe not!) your body get a feel for the rhythm of the stroke without the insane -- and others here are right, fly is just pain, and people who are good at 400 fly are terrible showoffs -- work your body does while actually swimming fly.

This is a non-coach-approved method, and probably unique and maybe silly, but that's how I learned.
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