I don't know if it's an option for you but if I wanted to learn fly correctly I'd have a coach on deck.

fly is all about rhythm and kick timing

from 1 arm, progress to 3-3-3 (3 left, 3 right, 3 full)

don't rush the stroke. make it long and make sure your getting your head down.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

As already mentioned coordination and timing is key in butterfly. You also need a minimum of strength but you can always compensate at the beginning by using fins until you nail most of the aspects of the stroke.

It’s a bit long video (17 minutes) but it summarizes the key elements...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQpFhM18zu4

Good luck!

What Jason said. When I learned what helped me the most was when I finally started generating propulsion from my core to my quads to shins to feet. Once I got to that, it really changed how winded I was getting. Lats and arms kind of followed the core. Jason I am down to 28 dolphin kicks crossing the 25m pool from push off vs 40 when I orginally tried this.

I would also google "Chloe Sutton Butterfly". She really breaks it down well in her youtube videos (makes it look way too easy)

My master's swim club got shut down before Xmas, so this isn't an option unfortunately. I'm mostly looking for ideas on drills or exercises I can do to get smoother at the motion (and maybe keep my heart rate below 150 while swimming it).

Thanks for this drill. Is it true that you are supposed to face downwards even when breathing? The one good resource I found online (Mark Foster's advice) said that you should face downwards throughout the stroke. I definitely was looking forward to breathe, so this is something I need to improve. You must have to clear the water by quite a lot to be able to look down and inhale air, not water.

So would you recommend fly-kick sets as a way to improve? Do you use a kickboard or do you do the kick with arms in the streamline position?

Use short fins a lot until you find the rhythm - not long fins, they slow down the kick cycle too much.

Do fly kick on your back with and without fins, arms up and arms at your sides. Use your snorkel (you have a snorkel right? right?) and kick on your stomach arms at your sides to find the rhythm.

One arm drills like Jason mentioned, progressing to 3-3-3 or 2-2-2.

Stay low and push your chin forward to breathe, breathe earlier in your stroke than you think.so your head is going down as your hands are striking.

Using your snorkel on you stomach, and hands up, push your chest down and hands out to initiate your catch, repeat this motion like a scull. once you've mastered that, do 3 scull/press, then a full stroke.

good luck.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Fly is awesome fun.

Good luck.

It's not necessary to keep your face pointing down throughout the stroke, as long as you get it down by the time your arms get about halfway through the recovery. lifting your head lets your shoulders stay a little lower.

the scull drill is a good one too.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Keep it simple. All of the above suggestions will probably work for you, but they all appear to complicate the process.

Continue as you have been, just do 90% of you fly work with fins. When you can manage 25, turn and focus on 50. The fins allow us to experience the kinesthetic awareness and fluidity of the stroke. They make it fun too... Until you want to drop the fins.

Thanks for that - I watched the video during my lunch break and will definitely revisit it because there was a lot of good information there. It sounds as though I need to do kicking drills (front, side, back), one-arm fly (side-breathing then front-breathing) then one-arm to two-arm drills (3-3-3 to 2-2-2 to 1-1-1 seems to be the progression). Then I need to swim 25s until I can hit the turn and come back down the pool.

I liked the part about "getting as much of your body to move as far as possible over the water", it really does sound like flying.

I did fly kick sets no board....5 kicks head down one small breast stroke skull to breath, 5 more repeat repeat repeat. Also on my side left arm over head, right arm on side belly button pointing to left wall of the pool 4 kicks and breath on the fourth. Come back the other 25 facing the other way.

But you have really smart guys chiming in with Jason and Tallswimmer (I think 4th US Olympic Trials 400IM 2004 for Athens, and you're up against Phelps and Lochte etc to make the team)

I watched Phelps underwater. His head is fully "up" with nose and eyes facing opposite pool wall before his shoulders break water surface and soon as his shoulders break surface from the natural undulation of body, he has the lowest head position breathing and literally his head is already starting to go down into the water with eyes point to bottom of pool just after his hands leave the water and start the recovery. He ends up diving head first exactly like a dolphin and then the arms follow to go into the water and catch. For the longest time, my head was up breathing way late as my arms were already moving forward in the air. I think I am getting closer to the correct timing, but it also seems to require way more contribution from the core and legs (arms following core and legs vs core and legs lead by arms)

I did a masters program a few years ago. We didn't do much butterfly, but when we did I swam freestyle. Finally, one day at the end of class the coach made me do 50 fly. After watching me he said he would call that butterstruggle, not butterfly, and never made me swim fly again.

Awesome fun isn't how I would describe butterfly.

200IM and 8th in ‘04, 4th in ‘08 😉

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

One of the main struggles w/ fly is learning to relax. Butterfly is a powerful stroke that activates a lot of tension, which causes you to burn out quickly.

Tips (not already mentioned)
-remember that the pull is a double, early vertical forearm pull. Open a small window in the water with your hands for your head to fit through and then try to get a double EVF.
-Try to keep your shoulders near the surface. Drive your head down with your shoulders up. This creates hip movement in the opposite direction of your head. Head down, butt up. Butt down, head up.
-Just like in freestyle, the kick is hip-driven, not knee driven.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the tips - it sounds as though a lot of the "fly skills" will be transferable to my freestyle swimming. I'll use "relax" as my mantra in the pool tomorrow.

I just saw your thread here and I cannot believe no one has actually told you the answer yet. It is called kick, kick, pull. This is how you begin to strengthen your fly muscles and stroke, and enables you to do many, many more yards than regular fly.

So what is it? You do a regular fly stroke, but instead of pulling right after the catch, you just leave your arms out front extended, while you do two dolphin kicks. Once the 2nd is done, then you pull through and do it over and over. The extension gives you so much rest, that it is no where near as taxing as regular fly without that pause. And over time you can get that type of drill pretty fast, I can do 100's in the low to mid 1;30's now, all day long on a 2 minute interval. For comparison I could do one 100 of regular fly, and need a lot of extra time to recover for another one. And even then, I would tap out at a few repeats and be totally trashed.

Now at some point all the kick, kick, pull will enable me to do more real fly, which is the goal for all of us..

Hey Monty normal fly is 2 kicks and one pull (so the second kick goes with the pull) are you saying, kick going in, another kick while gliding, then the pull+kick (so three kicks one pull)?

Try to practice fly without the arms first, and with minimal leg kick. It's all about learning how to use your whole body for the fly motion. Just gently go down the pool by pushing your chest in the water and out, let your legs kick naturally out of this motion without giving it too much. Then once you feel like you have that whole body movement down pat, try to add a little bit more 'kick' at the end for more propulsion. Then work on progressive drills to introduce arm movements in the whole body motion. First by doing a one arm movement within the proper rhythm every now and then. Then do the same with simultaneous arms. But often go back to the basic drill (no arms limited kick) whenever you feel tension or it becomes a bit too laboured. Then go again with the sequence.

Fly will never be an 'easy' swim style, but this will make it much easier for short distances at least (25 meters or more).

A few others have mentioned it here, but I’ll say it again for emphasis: Breath timing is critical. Most beginners, and many veterans, breathe too late. If you’re trying to bring you’r arms through the peak of the recovery phase with your face forward and your head high, your hips will drop, your forward momentum will stall, and you’ll have wasted energy lifting your upper body out of the water that could otherwise be used to drive you forward. As you’re pulling, your head should be coming out of the water, and as your arms come over, your head should be going back to a neutral (face down) position. If you’re head is going back in chin-first, you’re doing it very wrong.

There’s a very common misconception that a good butterfly stroke has a lot of porpoise-like vertical motion. Its not true, especially the above-water part of the stroke. The less you pull your body out of the water, the better. To that end, squeeze your shoulder blades on recovery to help keep the top half of the stroke flatter.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Why are you learning fly? Why would you do it to yourself? WHY?

in all seriousness its 100% about timing, and feeling the water. You need to smoothly progress through the stroke, and remain relaxed, because as soon as you tense up fly goes to pot. It's also crucial to breathe as your arms exit the water, and to have your head back down to the neutral position by the time your arms are entering the water. If your head is up whilst your arms are entering the water it comes down to sheer force of will and brute strength to keep moving yourself along.

Once again, WHY! there's so many other things you can do in swimming, you could do sculling, mushroom floats or go to the maccies across the road!

"in all seriousness its 100% about timing, and feeling the water"



x2. So often, you see really good young swimmers -- naturals, and strong -- doing the oddest double-kick-pulls up and down the lanes until the timing kicks in. I bet the feel and timing for fly is like cornering in biking, or doing competition dives. The mechanics don't quite capture what it should feel like.

In that vein, try this:

In the shallow end, do dolphin dives while simulating the arm and kick movements that would propel you while actually swimming fly. Just jump-and-dive down the pool. Maybe (maybe not!) your body get a feel for the rhythm of the stroke without the insane -- and others here are right, fly is just pain, and people who are good at 400 fly are terrible showoffs -- work your body does while actually swimming fly.

This is a non-coach-approved method, and probably unique and maybe silly, but that's how I learned.

kick pull kick
head dives down, pop your hips up, don't just let them float up.

When I was swim coaching we did a lot of 1 arm fly into regular fly, lots of 100 IM's, lots of 12.5 fly/12.5 free, lots of 50s doing IM order work (fly/back, back/breast, breast/free, free/fly). Lots of fly kicking on your back both w/ and w/out fins.

(i remember one time one of the kids was being a real ass in practice, the other coach rearranged all the lanes, threw a pair of fins down and told the kid 1000 fly k on your back or you never swim here again. It was LCM) It was all I could do to not lol while working with the other group.

Unless you were specializing in fly we rarely had the kids do anything longer than 100 fly at a time, maybe some 200's here and there. it would be something like 4x(4x200 1 fly 1choice stroke/free & 2 free). we had a lot of sets that may be 5x(5x100 2 fly, 2 free, 1 25fast/75ez)

It's an O2 intensive stroke, the most demanding stroke out there.

Another thing is do free with a fly kick. It'll help with your free timing and you'll get a feel for where to place the kick both in free and fly

hope that helps

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

He stated earlier that it wasn't an option.

Was merely using my terrible sense of humour to sandwich my (I think) good advice! I actually choose to do fly as my number 1 non free believe it or not!

Thanks for this tip. I spent time this morning working on the various one-arm to two-arm drills people here recommended for me, and they went quite well, but when I tried to move down the pool just using the kick, I was basically just humping the water and going nowhere. This drill sounds like it might help me to strengthen my kick and get some of the timing.

Thanks for the tip about timing. With respect to the head position - I actually found this morning that if I didn't get my head down before swinging my arms over the water, it hurt my neck (I'm not very flexible through the shoulders), so I was looking downwards when I breathed because that felt more comfortable.

I have three main reasons for trying to learn to fly: first, it looks like really good fun to be able to move through the water that way and I want to get that feeling; second, lots of people have told me it will help my freestyle swimming if I can improve my fly, because it will help my feel for the water, timing etc; third, I think that trying to learn something new is a valuable activity, especially as you get older. My workout this morning was mentally and physically demanding and I got a kick out of that. Also, what's "maccies", is that McDonalds where you come from? (Here we say "Macky D's", so I'm just guessing.)

Yeah McDonald’s in parts of the UK, there’s one directly out the window of my local pool, I see every time I swim in that direction haha! It’s great to be learning something new, particularly fly, and you’re 100% right in everything you’ve said. Just providing a bit of my terrible sense of humour with all the why, WHY! Hope you smash getting the stroke down : )

Hey Monty normal fly is 2 kicks and one pull (so the second kick goes with the pull) are you saying, kick going in, another kick while gliding, then the pull+kick (so three kicks one pull)?
No it is not 3 kicks, just the two. You throw your hands forward and then just let them glide there, not immediate catch. While they are gliding you put in two kicks and after the 2nd kick you then pull. The catch is not a normal one, and pretty weak too since you are starting from a stopped and static position, but this is what gives you so much rest. And that enables you to do much, much longer sets of actual two are fly too. The one arm drills are fine, but they really are so close to just freestyle that it doesn't do much to strengthen yourself for actual fly. I could do one arm all day long, but it just doesnt mimic the stress real double arm fly puts on you..Kick, kick, pull gets about as close as you can without forcing you to fall apart too quickly..

We used to do 4/1 to extend fly, because the normal fly cycle is 2 kicks per arm stroke (unless you're Tom Malchow who only did 1). The problem with this is you get out of the flow of the stroke, and end up having to muscle it a lot because there's no connection, and you really have to watch your technique so you don't just turn it into dolphin dives.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Agree with Monty. I even stretched it out to 4 kicks and one pull. I think that teaches you to be more efficient until your skill set gets better. And for old men like me easier on your shoulders.

I would add that I really like to also do a single 25yds dolphin kick with a stroke count of two arm, rt. arm, Lt. arm, two arm rt. arm lt. arm. That drill is similar to to freestyle with dolphin kick but for me keeps it more like a butterfly rhythm. I like to throw 1 of those 25yard efforts in every 100 or 200 yards just to keep 500s and 200s repeats more interesting.

Summer Sanders also did one kick.

My bigger kick is during the catch phase and the smaller snappy one as my hands exit to help keep my stroke rate up. My son seems to also do this, not sure if he was coached to do it or just does it... with the pandemic breaks and some growth and strength the next time he swims a long course 100 Fly he'll probably be in the 1:05 to 1:07 range, maybe faster. This is from a year ago (lane 2) and 5 inches shorter. It was a 4 second drop from a few weeks prior and faster than his SCM times from the December before.

https://www.instagram.com/...igshid=1xmvhyj50jw3i



Keep your eyes peeled for the name Maxine Clark to start showing up on Swimswam. Just before lock down # 1 she went 59 for 100 Free and 1:05 for 100 Fly LCM, 11 at the time. Did 58/1:03 SCM on limited training in the fall before lock down 2 after turning 12.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

That's huge improvement by your son, congrats. I wish I had learned when I was a kid; learning new skills in mid-life is so much harder.

A couple of years ago I finished quite high up at Canadian nationals for the sprint distance and as I approached the finish line, the announcer said I was "leading the silver wave"; my kids thought that was pretty funny.

I saw this post and thought, oooh learn to swim fly, I wonder if he's tried 3-3-3 easiest way to practice the timing of the butterfly stroke for longer swims until you got it down. Then, I thought JansoninHalifax has probably already recommended it, because its great advice.

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I swim fast because I'm afraid of sharks.

So with 4 kicks to one pull ratio, you just skip the second pull and glide in a streamline till you pull on the 4th kick or do you glide in a superman position (fly pre catch hand spacing).

I have done a variant of this where I do 4 kicks but once my arms go in I immediatly pull and end up with arms on side (like underwater position on the breast stroke pull out after the butterfly pull. Then kick for two more with arms on side and then throw arms forward on the fourth kick, pull again on the 1st, then kick arms on side 2nd and 3rd (like a porpoise) and then throw arms forward on the 4th (not sure if I am explaing it that well). But with that pattern I can go quite solid (25 of that drill, 25m actual fly and keep going for 8 lengths).

Reading all these comments from triathletes telling you how to swim fly is absolutely hilarious.

I can typically teach someone how to swim fly in 5-10 minutes. It isn't very complicated. Everyone telling you to do 3 arms left 3 arms right then do the hokey pokey and ta da has no idea how to actually teach someone how to swim butterfly. Using the method below I have taught everyone from 5 year olds to adults how to swim fly.

There are three motions to butterfly. Anyone who is telling you differently is trying too hard to make it complicated.

Here is what to do:
1) Push off the wall in a streamline, body still, eyes down.
2) With your arms completely straight, move your arms out to about 11 and 1 (like on a clock).
3) With your arms completely straight, and your body COMPLETELY STILL, do a full arm circle (like a normal butterfly stroke). Don't breathe. Not yet. Do not make any movement with your stomach, legs, etc. Don't try to kick a bunch. Just an arm circle at the same time with arms completely straight, returning back to the 11 and 1 position.
4) After your arms have gone around and you are back to the original position, push your butt up in the air a little, then push your butt underwater a little.

The entire thing can be boiled down to arms around, butt up, butt down.

To start out, completely separate the movements. Body still. Arms at 11 and 1. Do arm circle, with arms straight, both underneath you and over the water. Try to keep them low to the surface. When arms come back to the front, push butt up for one second, push butt down for one second. You should be back in the starting position.

As you do this a few times, you can reduce the time between movements. To breathe, lift your head as soon as you start your pull and get your head back down before your arms come around.

Do not try to add the double kick until you have mastered these movements. If you want a quick video lesson, I am happy to help.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
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Reading all these comments from triathletes telling you how to swim fly is absolutely hilarious.//

To be fair to many of the posters here giving advice, some are ex olympians(in swimming) and at least a 1/2 dozen others are national champions or all Americans in masters swimming too. So I wouldn't discount some of the advice here just because it is a triathlon forum...

And to be honest, being those things doesn’t mean you can teach someone how to swim fly. You don’t have a concert pianist teach a new piano player.

The thread started by asking how to swim, and that the poster can’t make it 25 yards without a major struggle. I don’t feel the need to validate my thoughts based on my experience both in swimming and in coaching and teaching, but doing 3-3-3, talking about how many kicks per pull and the timing of the catch isn’t going to fix the issues of not being able to go the length of the pool. Starting from scratch, making sure body position is good and teaching the rhythm of the stroke from the beginning will go much further than force feeding fly by swimming with fins, doing kick drills, or one arm strokes.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

Absolutely about timing. I have just started swimming fly again, about 14-15 months post double shoulder surgery. My timing and stroke mechanics are so ingrained from the thousands of strokes and hours over my swimming career. In college, more than once, we did a 3,000y fly set...don't do that, that's part of what ruined my shoulders, surely. I swam distance and 200 fly in college (occasionally 400IM when just finishing would guarantee a few points). While my flexibility and durability for fly will still take some work, I feel great for a 50. Just like anything else, it's about TITS...time in the "saddle."

Edit to say definitely you can learn a lot watching on youtube and by filming your stroke if you can't have a coach.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

don't do that. the recovery phase of fly is dependent on the catch/pull phase. If you want to isolate the catch and pull, then just do an underwater revovery by sneaking your hands back to the top under your body. Trying to recover without flow is sure to mess you up.

4/1 hold your pre-catch position.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

OK I have done it with the underwater recovery like during the breaststroke pull out. I think that is what you mean?

Y'know how in ITU racing, the bike is just the long transition between the swim and the run? Fly for me is just the transition from the blocks to the rest of the IM race. Necessary evil.

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***

....you can't win the 400IM on the fly leg, but you can certainly lose it :-)

Exactly.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

OK I am "on it"....as soon as my communist government around here gets us outta lockdown and I actually get to swim again. Theoretically 2 more weeks before pools can re open, but because of all the ramp in numbers before Xmas and New Years, I think we're gonna be locked up for 6 more weeks not 2 more, so its going to be more running, rowing machine and XC skiing (the latter if we get some more snow around here)....really don't feel like getting on the trainer.

OK keep the advice coming on the learn to fly thread. As I only learned in 2017 at age 52 and on my third season, everything from all of you guys is helpful (ps. I did not get the 25x400IM big day in this year, because of 60 min pool times in the lead up to Xmas and the 4 hrs slot we had rented was on 26 Dec, the first day of lockdown....so was in shape and got locked out by 1 day)

I did some one-arm fly drills this morning and then tried the kick, kick, kick, kick+pull drill that you suggested and it felt like it really helped me figure out when to breathe. Then, when I tried to swim full fly, I managed 8 x 25, actually making it to the wall! A couple of caveats: I took lots of rest after each lap (like 30-40 seconds) to get my heart rate down (was hitting about 152-156) and I am not sure how pretty it looked, but it definitely felt more fluid and powerful once I was able to breathe. I think I had been breathing too late (when my arms were coming forward past my ears) and this was causing neck discomfort and also incomplete inhalation. So along with the effort of the full-body movements, I was also getting insufficient oxygen into my system on each cycle. So 15 m, i.e. about 10 seconds, was my maximum distance because I was essentially anaerobic. I am going to stick with the drill you suggested (which I wrote on my workout sheet as a "monty") because it felt like it helped a ton with the the timing of the breath - it made me link the forward tilt of my chin to my kick, not to my arm movement. I need lots more practice, but this felt like a huge breakthrough.

Thanks to all the STers who have offered their advice, I really appreciate it.

In terms of timing breathing, maybe Monty, Jason and Tallswimmer can comment, but once I moved my breathing closer to when my head first pops up in breast stroke (relative to EVF catch in both), the better the rest of my body could cope and I got to a better amplitude. You are right if your head is still up when your arms are already past ears on recovery, you will way high with head and shoulders and hips and legs will be way deep like a drag chute when at that phase you want your upper back already flat.

Hands just out head getting ready to dive in



Head way in, arms following and catching up to head, you can also see because his back is not way high, his hips and butt are not way low creating drag. They are really shallow. I am not sure what his knees are doing that far apart....maybe some of the lifetime swimmers can comment, but this Phelps so I guess he can do whatever the heck he wants (maybe he gets some propulsion letting knees go apart and squeezing them together like in breast stroke???)

I was thinking about what makes fly so much fun.

I think it is because it is quit a bit different from most of the other activities we do.

Maybe this is because there only two speeds: sprinting and drowning.

I suppose there is not a real risk of drowning.

But DROWNING feels possible- once your form breaks down, your legs drop, you are gasping for air, and bobbing up and down.

It is a bit like doing a really hard rock climb - where you are a bit uncertain of your gear - and you are struggling blindly for the end.

Or maybe a bit like sex- except the middle part is painful and frightening.

(which I wrote on my workout sheet as a "monty"//


I love it!! Glad you were able to implement in the pool what I was only able to write on paper here(virtual of course). Like I said, to me this is the single best drill that mimics actual fly swimming, without the bomb that real fly explodes on you before you even get a chance to learn it properly. The one arm stuff is fine and dandy, but you dont have to actually lift yourself out of the water with two hands/arms, and that is the whole point to fly vs free. As you progress with that stroke pattern, just lessen the kicks you take while gliding until it is just two. Then you have the actual pattern you will use once you do "real" fly.


But even when you have mastered that, this pattern will always be there for you when it is early season and you haven't done fly in a long time. The other 3 strokes are easy because you can do them easy and hold form, fly is a separate animal all tighter and needs some help to just be able to do the dam thing in any type of set..

Strong disagree there - real breastroke is hard as hell. Floaty, old lady in a flower showercap breastroke is easy, but competitive breastroke I find much harder to get back to than fly after extended breaks. I'll pin this til I get back in a pool someday, having been out since labor day, and a memorial day opening is probably my next chance...

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

But a least you can pretend to do breaststroke when you are trashed and out of shape, fly out of shape is like a surfer tomb stoning, straight up and down bobbing with no resemblance what so ever of the original stroke. I recall the last 25 of some 200 flys doing the tomb stone...

Ha! I had a teammate in college who was a 100 freestyler, and we had to plug the lineup at a meet in the 200 fly. He took it out like a bat out of hell. And then the piano fell on his back. 9 strokes from the flags to the wall at the finish!!!

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

The other big pay-off is that it makes freestyle feel way easier when you go back to a free set.

In all the other strokes, I find it quite easy to breathe, even when I am going slowly. Whereas in fly if you don't get sufficient power in your catch/pull then you don't get to breathe, because you tilt your head forward and meet nothing but water. It means there's a big incentive to err on the side of "too much power" (because at least that way I can breathe) and what I am trying to figure out now is how to get just high enough to breathe, without the enormous energy investment. I'm definitely making progress - I was able to swim a set of 4 x 100 IM this morning and there is no way I have ever been able to do that before.

Nice work... breathing eventually will not take power, with practice you'll find that your pull, and the finish of your pull pushes you/your chin forward to breathe. Keep working hard, and enjoy the process.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

For breathing without needing power, would the 1 stroke fly (with breath), one stroke breast drill help with the timing of the fly breathing and the appropriate body undulation or is this more of a drill for breast stroke?

Nope - that's a catch drill. The drill were talking about last week, with a pull and no overwater recovery is the way to work the push forward, IMHO. Envision surfing your chin on the water as you finish the power phase of your pull.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

I would be on the bandwagon of encouraging triathletes to learn fly. I swam fly as a high school swimmer, and I had to essentially re-learn it as an adult. Every new season it takes some work to get it down. For me, the fastest way to learn what I an doing wrong in my freestyle is to fly. And the fastest way to get a fast freestyle is to integrate fly sets. It's like adding strength sets to any workout. You very quickly learn where the dead spots are in your stroke with fly, and are forced to work them...and the core strength developed is very helpful for freestyle. I personally find it is easy to half-ass the transition from catch to pull with freestyle, and just take a nice long breath, creating over rotation. If you half-ass that same transition with fly, you will drown. It forces you to have consistency in power through your stroke, and it forces you to have good body position. The biggest mistake I see in adult learners is that they tend to have way too much vertical movement and pull their head up way too high, while simultaneously dropping their hips.

The way I learned.
First in High School the only person on a swim team taught me the mechanics. She took me into the shallow end and we practiced from a stand still first with the arms then with the kick. I don’t remember how long that was but we ended up putting it together.

Secondly in College I would go to the swim meets or swim practices (I was a lifeguard) and watch the best girl on the team (she won conference titles) swim and then after would simply visualize her swimming as I swam. I visualized matching her rhythm.

Finally I simply always incorporate into my swimming. Every week I have a set of IM from 50’s up to 200’s.

I think the key is get help from someone who knows the stroke well. If my small high school in the middle of farm country had a butterflier in the school there is one anywhere there are pools with painted lanes and lane lines. Seek them out.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

A lot of what you’ll need to do will depend on your body type. Is your torso long or short? If it’s long (as a percentage of a your height) then this will be a little easier. If it’s shorter then you’ll need to do things a little differently than traditionally advocated.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Can you make some suggestions for the long limb short torso runner body people. I am in that category who are also hard to fit on a tri bike but have the advantage of infinite cooling capacity in hot racing.

Depending on how you are in the water and I’m making these recommendations blind, I would say that breathing every stroke in fly will penalize you more than someone who has a longer torso. You’ll probably need to get a little bit of a higher turnover and you might want to even consider breathing to the side, although you’ll give up a little front end speed with that choice.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Thanks SnappingT. I am definitely faster breathing every second stroke....until I am not! Basically regardless of the race is the first 50m is every second stroke breath and after that it is every stroke (maybe 75m on a 100m depending on what races happened earlier in the day and what comes next). For 400IM breath every stroke on the fly leg. I have never tried breathing on the side (well I have but every time I tried, it totally screwed me up but back when I did my breathing timing was wrong (I was breathing with my arms already in the air well into recovery, which obviously wont work. I think my breath timing is more correct now so maybe when I get back in the pool after the current lockdown ends, I can give it a whirl.

This was an awesome tip - I tried it this morning and discovered I can still breathe with my chin in the water. I had been lifting my head way higher to breathe. It meant I stayed a bit lower to the water and presumably used more of my propulsion to move me forward and less to move me up and out of the water. I took several seconds off my 100 IM today (still crap and slow, but down from 1:53 to 1:48 for a set of 6 x 100 IM leaving on 2:30).

I have another question for you - what is the time difference between your 100 free and your 100 IM when swimming sets of each? I swam 6 x 100 of each this morning and the IMs were 1:48-1:50 and the free was 1:31-1:33; I was wondering if that is a "normal" differential (17 seconds seems like a lot to me!).

Excellent! I’d say 5-8 seconds/100 on the same effort would be about what I drop off, but I was (am?) an IM specialist, so if you have greater relative weaknesses to your free it’ll go up.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

When you factor in the speed difference (I think you are about twice as fast as me) an 8 second drop for you equates to a 16 second drop for me, so maybe my times are in the right ballpark. Looks as though I should aim to close the gap to 10 seconds if possible (and not by just swimming my 100 free slower!), which means aiming around 1:40-1:43 for the 100 IM repeats.

what is the time difference between your 100 free and your 100 IM when swimming sets of each?
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For me, when I'm in tri-shape, my IM's are about 7-10 sec per 100 slower than my freestyle sets, assuming a cruise interval. And, honestly, most of that time difference is from the breaststroke. My fly and back legs are within 1-2 secs (per 25) as my full freestyle. Then that damn breast hits like a drag suit while wearing sneakers.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

This delta will also be dramatically impacted by fly to fly, fly to back, back to back, back to breast breast to breast and breast to free turns and underwater (remove stroke to stroke turns on 100IM but applies to 200IM and 400IM). but I think we can all strive to be at 10 seconds slower Delta per 100m relative to Tallswimmer's 5.

Looks like I am stuck on land sports and locked out of pool for another 28 days minimally as our local lockdown for further extended. So no chance to practice the suggestions on this thread for a while . Honestly not being able to swim is the worst part of the pandemic. I can handle work from home (it sucks but whatever), no triathlon racing, no visiting family, no visiting friends, no restaurants, no shopping no travel. But no swimming really is somewhat unbearable. Even when I exclusive did triathlon it was almost never that I went more than 3-7 days without getting in the water.

Anyway, keep flying and reporting back so that we can keep reading and learning what we can try when some of us get back in the water

100% agreed. Breastroke is hard AF when you are doing it remotely correct.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I've found this thread really interesting as i am also an AOS and have been working to learn the strokes for a few years now. If possible, I suggest you film yourself swimming and review with your coach or post here. While I expect a good coach does not need video to figure out what you should work on, it can be hard in masters to get consistent feedback, so I think the video can help get some focus.

I was able to get filmed just before everything shutdown and discovered all kinds of problems with my fly (and other strokes and turns and underwater...). Turns out I do three kicks per cycle! Had no idea. no idea at all. I think this comes from difficulty translating drills into full swimming. I also make this strange inward scull and point my palms at the other side of the pool just after entry. The video was very revealing!

Unfortunately, that was close to the last time I was in the pool and the Masters coach I knew best moved to a new location for work (good thing for her, less good for the masters club). Maybe I'll be swimming again later this year and can start to regain some pool fitness.

Here is the video: