Depends on the roads you ride on. I went a month where I had a flat every long ride. The roads around me are terrible.

My wife complained about zwift being a monthly fee. I showed her how much I was spending on tubes...she doesn’t mind paying for zwift now.

IME, he's not underselling them at all. Just last Saturday a guy I was on ride with got a piece of glass embedded in tubeless tire, and was leaking air. That's the end of a tube 99% of time. In this case it took 30 seconds to plug it, top off with co2 and be on way. 9/10 times I replace a tubeless tire from wear as opposed to damage. I know you're gonna say how hard you are on tires / where you ride, but lots of people do the same. And IMO that's where running lower pressure without worry of pinch flatting is a significant benefit.

Know this doesn't matter anyway, you won't convince me to go back to tubes, nor will you change mind about tubeless. Although you did tilt against disc brakes for long time so maybe there's hope :)

Yes, tubed tires offer none of the claimed benefits of tubeless. You can make half an argument for pinch flat resistance, but that's marginal at best. And that stuff about latex "slow deflating" or "resisting punctures" is a bit eye-rolling to me. I rode exclusively latex for like 10 years. You get a hole in them, they go completely flat real quick, just like any tubed tire. I'd argue you get more gunshot like "tubular flats" than with butyl. Any slight pin prick and they're done. Anything more than a pin prick in the casing, and they bubble through and you're done. Any tire pressure below like 85 PSI (for me) and they pinch flat like crazy.

Per Spackler you'll never get me to go back.

Zero G brakes!!!!

What about fixing a flat in a race? I was under the impression that getting the tire back on the rim was a serious PITA. That is why I have not considered running them.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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I think it might be somewhat batch-specific. I had a very early Corsa Speed that was absolutely brutal to get on a Jet+ rim. I've had more recent ones that I've done with my thumbs (still on the "harder" end of the spectrum, but manageable).

Try on a zipp 900 or non plus jet rim (not that these are really an option to run tubeless either). If only they made a non tubeless version of the corsa speed.
It is the thickness of the beads, not the tightness. They fill too much of the rim bed.

Hey, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything...I was just chiming in on a thread that was started, and more than one other person has asserted, that they had tried road tubeless and found the benefit/hassle ratio to be a bit low. That's not going to be the case for every person or situation, but from what I've observed, it's not an uncommon assessment. I could swap anecdotal stories with you all day on this subject...

On the topic of disc brakes on road bikes, did you happen to catch the penultimate (I think?) stage of the Dauphine? You know, the stage that was completely in the mountains and happened to be held in near-biblical rain conditions? That's the use case we're told that disc brakes on road bikes are a "no brainer", right? Take a look at the equipment choices (specifically brakes) of the guys leading the race (1st and 2nd groups on the road over the last 2 climbs) - of the ones who had a choice to run either a rim brake or a disc brake bike (i.e. basically all of them except the Bora guys). By my count, to a man they were all on rim braked bikes (and carbon wheels!). So...I guess I'm not alone in my assessment of them for pure racing applications :-)

But...as you said, I'm not going to convince you about any of this anyway...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm the definition of worry wart. And this was my #1 concern when I went tubless...WHAT IF I GOT A FLAT AT A RACE?!?

There are a few options

1. Put a tube in it just like you were running normal tubes. I've never found tubeless tires any more/less difficult to mount. The trick that most people forget is that the valve part of the wheel absolutely has to be mounted last. If you try it any other way you'll struggle to get it on.

2. If you can ride it in without stopping then just finish the race on the lower PSI tire. My experience is that most of the time (it's never happened in a race) a tubeless tire never goes completely flat.

3. Use a Dynaplug, plug the hole, throw some cO2 in it to get the PSI back up and be on your way.

In a race situation, #1 would be the worst case scenario.

I haven't had issues with getting the CS's off and on those Jet+s...but, I'm also VERY particular about my bead seating technique (and practiced, due to all of the tire testing I've done ;-) and rarely need to use even tire levers on most tires.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm talking about using Corsa speed with a tube. I'm not interested in road tubeless. Speed of fixing a flat is my only reason to consider it, but the chances of spraying sealant all about and just the general PITA of putting a new tire on means I have no interest in them.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Ditto, latex tubes were always an expensive, fussy, less reliable option. Was happy to jump to tubeless in mtn, cross, gravel and road. On road I still have one bike still on tubes, but they are not-latex. When the fancy stock racing tires wear out I will swap to road tubeless on that bike as well.

"Gunshot 'tubular flats' "? Hmmm...that's a new one on me. The only time you can get a "gunshot" is if the tube is outside the casing before it fails (such as tube mis-installation and trapped under a bead). With a tubular, that would basically mean a sidewall failure to get that to happen...

And yes...just like with a tubular (which, despite what you say, are well known to tend to be slow deflating when punctured), a latex tube inside of a clincher tire ALSO tends to be slow-deflating when punctured.

As an example, here's some pictures from the last puncture I had on my road bike. I pulled the following piece of glass/flint out of a tire with a latex tube in it. On the outside of the tire, that glass/flint chunk was nearly flush with the tread, and the remainder below the surface like an iceberg. The only clue it was there was that the tire was getting slightly soft as I was riding...




There was barely a mark/hole in the latex tube when I pulled it out...~3 minutes later I was back on the road after swapping in a tube (no levers necessary), with the majority of that time spent pumping it up with my frame pump.

Just sayin'...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

+1 on all this. After some personal use, and a lot of watching other racers in gravel and road races, I've come to the same conclusion. In *theory* road tubeless sounds great: seal your flats and keep riding! In practice, it only works sometimes (probably due to high road pressures) -- seen lots and lots of people drop out of road races on tubeless setups due to flats. And, if it doesn't work, you're in for a huge mess and a bigger repair job, and you have to carry a tube and CO2 anyway, so no benefit there. Also it's much more work to set up, and needs redoing every couple months even if you don't ride them, because the sealant dries up. Also no one mentions all the other tubeless problems: #1 by far is the very scary tubeless blowouts that I see more and more of - caused by the fact that there's no tube to firmly hold the tire bead on the hook of the rim, so it's way more likely to blow off, especially at road pressures. Another problem is valves that gum up and cause a slow flat because they no longer seal properly and air leaks through them (had one of those at a big road race this spring and was NOT impressed). Tubeless also is very subject to "mystery flats" - no obvious sealant leaking through the tire but it goes flat anyway - probably a rim tape or valve core issue, but who knows. Finally, the best tubeless tires are not faster or lighter than the best latex setups (sealant weight = tube weight), so it carries no real race benefit, just increased risk. In fact, true tubeless tires (TL rather than TLR) are much heavier because they essentially have both a tube (built in) *and* sealant. I do think tubeless is great for MTB and lower pressure gravel tires, but IMO not for road use.

I will be the first person to say (and agree with you) that this seems like a funny thing to debate. It clearly works for some and not for others.

However...I'm curious about your "Scary blowouts" comment. I've had more of those happen on tubes and never on tubeless. In my experience IF you get a flat, it's a very slow leak. Secondly if you have a tubeless wheel and tire. The bead should hook into the tire and hold it on.

Generally I hear the complaint from people that they though unseating the bead was difficult on a tubeless combo.

Have you seen tubeless blowouts with tires coming off the rim?

Totally yeah I've seen it several times. Every time so far it was either a parked bike, or a just riding along situation, so no bad accidents yet, but yeah it's way more prone to that than a tube setup. A common one is riding on a hot day where the sun warms the road and the tire a bit, making it more supple and also slightly increasing the air pressure, then bam! Just out of curiousity, I googled it and found this article describing exactly what I've seen: https://janheine.wordpress.com/...-with-road-tubeless/

Crazy, I've had that happen with tubes a few times. Never with tubes. I just did a race in 90+ degree heat and had no issues.

I honestly suspect they had the tires over inflated but we'll never know.

Wait..the article describes him intentionally over inflating the tires. Of course they are going to pop.

If you get a proper tubeless tire/wheel and follow the recommendations - that won't happen. That's not at all what he was doing in that link.

Read the article more carefully. He did that overinflation experiment with a particular tire he manufactures to see how it would react, but only after people telling him about real world blowouts with big name brand tubeless road tires (that he did not mention by name). Also the tire he tested is a very wide tire so much less prone to blowing off the rim than narrow tires. He mentions all that in the article.

Yeah, I've read that before. It's a good (if not slightly biased) article.

Again, I'm not trying to argue with you. Do what works for you. But you can also read the comments on that article that basically what he's doing doesn't make sense.

I can find a bunch wordpress articles talking about how great road tubeless is. Doesn't really matter if it doesn't work for you.

However, I will still stand by that if you have a proper tubeless wheel/tire and follow the PSI recommendations for the tire then you're fine. The problem I've seen with people is they try to jury rigg something or use the PSI they would have used on tubeless and are shocked when there is a problem.

For example, I use to run 120 PSI on tubes. The same tire, with tubeless setup has a max pressure of 90. If I had not read the specifications and inflated it to 120 I would have been in a world of hurt.

Stan's FAQ had this to say about road tubeless tire pressure:
"What pressure should I run in my tubeless road tires?
Rider weight and terrain will ultimately help you determine your preferred pressure; a good starting point is 10% lower than you would run with tubes."

So if we don't really run tubeless at the same pressure, articles that say that tubeless offers better rolling resistance are misleading because we aren't comparing the same PSI.

On the messy flat front, a much more knowledgeable rider than I said that in his experience the sealant sprays from a small puncture until the tire deflates to below 70lbs. So people running lower pressure would notice less spray than road cyclists at and over 70lbs PSI. This could be why there is a greater percentage of riders happy with tubeless in the MTB and gravel bike scene.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

so if you say run 90psi with tubes then you'd run about 80psi tubeless (though i don't understand why your optimal RR pressure would be lower) so only 10psi to lose before it stops spraying and seals which would be quite acceptable to just keep riding.

i think the main thing i take from this thread is that the OP was correct - it would be really good to have a poll of who has tried road tubeless (road bike, 28c max tyres etc, not gravel) and whether they are still using it. plenty of anecdotes either way so we need some stats on what percentage have found it worthwhile.

x2. It's almost like someone should run a poll, and then repeat the poll with the same questions a year later. :)

Just replying to you because it gives me a good point to start with on the subject. I’ve tried tubeless on MTB, Gravel, and Road tires.

For my mountain bikes, I’m a tubeless concert for life. I have two sets of MTB wheels (Mavic Crossmax Pro and Bontrager Line 30). I can seat tires with hand pumps on both. I’ve only had to resort to a compressor one time on the Bontrager rims. I’ve installed and seated tons of tires on the Mavic rims, which are UST, with complete ease and never had to resort to a compressor. In terms of flats, tubeless is clearly the way to go. I can’t tell you how often I find flats that fixed themselves without me noticing during the ride on my mtb tires.

For my gravel bike it’s been a mixed bag. Again, I have two wheel sets: a set of Reynolds ATRs in 700c and a set of FSA 650b wheels. With the Reynolds it’s a mixed bag when it comes to mounting and setting up tires tubeless. The 650b wheels are a total disaster and nearly impossible to set up tubeless. I’ve re-taped them so many times I stopped counting. There either isn’t enough tape and the tires feel like they’ll fall of the rim or there’s too much tape and I can barely seat the tire with a compressor. I’ve successfully mounted one set of tires tubeless on the 650b wheelset and didn’t experience a single flat in 500 miles of riding over some pretty chunky gravel. I have had flats using the same tires with tubes on the same circuit prior to getting tubeless “right” on that wheelset. The 700c wheelset also hasn’t seen a flat either (at least that I’ve noticed) while set up tubeless.

On the road side the only straightforward setup I’ve used has been the Mavic CXR UST wheels. Tires were easy to install and seated with a hand pump. No flats and I’d race them... if they rolled a touch faster. I experimented with the Corsa Speeds on my HED wheels... screw that. Install was a huge pain and that tire was crazy fragile. I flatter twice in my neighborhood on roads that are literally perfect. Neither flat sealed in a way that I would want to ride for an extended period of time.

Summing my own observations, I’ve noticed that installation and setup gets more difficult as tires get narrower and the ability of the tires to seal a puncture gets worse as well. Not sure if that’s due to air pressure, casing thickness, or a combination. Also, Mavic is doing something right with UST. The tire bead and rim profile need to be designed together and quality control for both (Millimeters matter). ETERO supposedly is about to release their Tubeless Road standard, that will probably make installations much easier going forward. That said, I’m not sure tubeless road will ever seal as consistently as tubeless MTB. I can change our a tube in about a minute on a normal road tire. If I have to put a tube into a tubeless road tire... longer. Possibly much longer. And it’s a pain. Really wouldn’t want to have to do that in a race.

To summarize:
MTB: tubeless convert
Gravel: unsure but probably tubeless
Road: tube for training, tube for racing long course, tubeless for racing short course (because if I flat I’m off the podium anyways so might as well trade a bit of extra flat protection for a more difficult flat repair).

Uhm, right. Solid logic there. But anyway, the most winning team so far this year is on disc bikes. So maybe they’re smarter than the rest?