Can you seat road/gravel/cx tubeless consistently with a floor pump? I have one particularly bad tire-rim combination on my MTB (no bead sockets) that I have to resort to using another tire as a compressor to provide the quick blast of air to seat up.

I did 3 tubed tire swaps last week: gravel tires to trainer tire to road tires. But I'm planning on trying tubeless CX in the fall.

+1

Why did you go back? What do you think needs to be different/better for you to stick with tubeless?

Just curious. I went tubeless a few years ago and I would never go back. There always seems to be some debate on this and I'm always curious why some people love it and why others think it's madness.

Most folks I know running tubeless CX are using higher psi than I do (with tubulars or clinchers w/ latex) and the tire itself is less supple. I don't get the attraction.

I can tell you that I have no plans to try it for the foreseeable future.

I've listened to many smarter people than me say it's not ideal for road use. I don't flat much. In the last 10 years I have had 3 flats. One was a double because I didn't find a sliver of glass the first time around in the tire. A tire and latex tube rolls just as fast without the hassle. For now.

I don't think that you can seat a road tire without a compressor or one those special pumps, I am not sure about cx/gravel.

I can seat by hand and inflate with floor pump. Are you using a tire recommended by the wheel manufacturer? I have used Schwalbe Pro one and Pirelli

I don’t know, man. I’ve read all the grievances and I still think sufficient options have been provided. This poll is a word for word redo of a poll taken a year ago.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have now switched to tubeless on all road and TT bikes. Fewer flats. Most flats seal themselves. Lower PSI/more comfortable. If you do have a flat too big to seal, you can be back on the road within 90 secs with a plug. Would never go back

I use it almost exclusively for road/triathlon. I had issues with flats though as I'm a bigger guy (200lbs)

Took mine to the LBS who knew what they were doing and it was a pain for them to install them as I watched. Traumatized me lol

In hindsight, I may have been trying to go with Hutchinson Sector 28 on probably a too small Shimano tubeless ready rim/wheel. That big of a tire did not feel fast either. It very well could have been me, the end user.

What took me back right away were three non-tubeless wheelsets with a dozen clinchers and tubes on hand. With that kind inventory it was too easy to say forget about it. I'll have to use up my inventory before switching.

Not having to stop for flats would be great. However, there are better cyclists than me in my "club" that tried tubeless, still had flats that sprayed and decided to go back to what they knew. There might be a sweet spot for tubeless - those who get very few flats due to cleaner roads and those in gravel/MTB bike situations. Seems to work less well in urban areas where there are big things that tear at tires and a multitude of small things too.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Interesting. Maybe I got lucky, but my first foray into Tubeless was with my gravel grinder. The setup was pretty simple and I was able to set the bead with a basic floor pump. Once I couldn't get it to and just used a cO2 cartridge.

I love the low PSI and flat protection that I converted my road and my TT wheels over.

That being said, I used to average about a flat a month in the periods of the year I rode outside. It got to the point where I was nervous if I only had one tube on me and I was out on a long ride. I have not had a flat since I switched over to tubeless on my road/tt bike.

To me the biggest barrier for people seems to be getting the tires on. One trick I've learned is that the area by the valve needs to go on dead last. if you try to put that on first you will never get it on. Once I learned that i've never had an issue getting a tire on. And I've tried 4 or 5 different kinds on 3 different sets of wheels

So were your monthly flats while on the gravel bike? What was usual cause of a flat?

My monthly flats on urban bike lanes are usually metal (nails, debris, screws) or glass. Also we run higher pressure on the road, than they do on gravel, MTB. Maybe high pressure works against a fast and easy seal. Seems like the sealant works better when running lower pressures and there is less spray at lower pressure.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

My flats were always on the road. Usually either pinch flats or your everyday nail

Love tubless i am around 200 pounds and I can now ride with a low psi. I have the mavics and can get them setup with a regular floor pump.

This ^^

Tubeless on my MTB since Stans just became a company, Tubeless on my cross/gravel bike for years - both of these are no-brainers. Tubeless on my road bike for a year now and see no down side but do understand people have different results depending on tire/wheel combo. Two sets of Reynolds Aero wheels with Schwalbe Pro One's (25's measuring 28). Easy to mount by hand and no levers needed, easy to remove with a single plastic lever with no effort. Easy to inflate with a single C02 (understand this is not a preferred method, but for now I'm ok with this). No flats this year but had two punctures that sealed immediately using Orange seal (one was a recent sidewall cut - had pulled over and heard the tire leaking air, turned the wheel sideways/spun and the Orange seal sealed the cut pretty much immediately). fyi @ ~195lbs and running front around 68psi and rear around 75psi.

Not only does sealant tend to be only partially effective at sealing punctures at road pressures, it's also quite the PITA to clean up...especially if it dries before you have a chance to wipe it down :-/

IME, running latex tubes (even without sealant) gets you the majority of the claimed benefits of running tubeless, but without the hassles of overly tight beads and sealant. For the small handful of flats I get on the road each year, I'm OK with that...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

to me the potential for self-repairing flats is the only benefit of tubeless. there seems to be considerable debate as to whether that really happens at typical road pressures.

that might well be linked to the other thing - ability to run lower pressures. really, i don't want to run pressures lower than what i can happily do with tubes. lower is not always better - certainly not faster beyond a point and comfort/grip only go so far too. i can imagine though that if you are one to take the wide and low pressure trends to extreme levels (possibly with circumstances that justify it) then the sealant will work well and its all good.

MTB, tubeless absolutely no question but thats a completely different situation.

the one reason why i am tempted to give tubeless a try is that i would like to run vittoria cs and they seem to be impractical to run with tubes plus not protective enough to be safe without the self-repairing of tubeless.

it seems to be the way the industry is pushing us though so i expect one way or another i will end up there eventually

Impractical in what way?

I run Corsa Speeds w/latex tubes...mostly because the wheels I run them on don't get used regularly, so setting them up tubeless would be a fool's errand of trying to keep the sealant from going dry between uses...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

due to the tight beads pinching tubes - maybe not such a problem?

All the claimed benefits except nearly total protection against pinch flats, ability to plug puncture very quickly in the field, ability to seal some punctures almost instantly, and ability to seal most punctures before you're riding on rims.

So...basically none of the "claimed" benefits. :)

I'm running the Corsa Speeds on Hed Jet+ Black rims with latex and it hasn't been a problem...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Well...since the subject of this thread is ROAD tubeless applications (i.e. NOT gravel/allroad/mtb, but narrow tires at relatively high pressures), IME you're "overselling" some of the tubeless benefits (and "underselling" latex)



And latex tubes have dramatically lower rates of pinch flatting than when running butyl tubes...so, "the majority of the benefit".


IME, plugs in road tubeless are a "hit or miss" proposition if they'll work, mostly because of the higher pressures. So, after fiddling around with it and not being able to put full pressure back into it, you're left with a soft tire until you can do a proper repair. If you get a hole large enough to get a plug, you're stopping anyway and putting a tube into a non-tubeless beaded tire will be nearly as fast, and a more effective repair. So again, "the majority of the benefit" (if not more).


And IME those types of punctures are very small, and of the type that latex tubes also tend to "fend off". There's some data on this very website attesting to that ;-) Once again, "the majority of the benefit".


Punctures in latex tubes are typically VERY slow deflating. They don't instantly deflate like a butyl puncture. Besides, you can also run sealant inside the latex if this (and the point above) are concerns. Yet again, "the majority of the benefit".


None?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Totally agree. Tried it, didn't see any benefit. Back to clinchers on the road and tubulars for tris.

Tubeless provides a huge benefit to me on the mtb, but I didn't see any of this carry over to road use. More of a hassle than anything. And for all this talk about helping to prevent flats, is that actually an issue for people? I've had maybe one flat in the last 5k miles.

Depends on the roads you ride on. I went a month where I had a flat every long ride. The roads around me are terrible.

My wife complained about zwift being a monthly fee. I showed her how much I was spending on tubes...she doesn’t mind paying for zwift now.

IME, he's not underselling them at all. Just last Saturday a guy I was on ride with got a piece of glass embedded in tubeless tire, and was leaking air. That's the end of a tube 99% of time. In this case it took 30 seconds to plug it, top off with co2 and be on way. 9/10 times I replace a tubeless tire from wear as opposed to damage. I know you're gonna say how hard you are on tires / where you ride, but lots of people do the same. And IMO that's where running lower pressure without worry of pinch flatting is a significant benefit.

Know this doesn't matter anyway, you won't convince me to go back to tubes, nor will you change mind about tubeless. Although you did tilt against disc brakes for long time so maybe there's hope :)

Yes, tubed tires offer none of the claimed benefits of tubeless. You can make half an argument for pinch flat resistance, but that's marginal at best. And that stuff about latex "slow deflating" or "resisting punctures" is a bit eye-rolling to me. I rode exclusively latex for like 10 years. You get a hole in them, they go completely flat real quick, just like any tubed tire. I'd argue you get more gunshot like "tubular flats" than with butyl. Any slight pin prick and they're done. Anything more than a pin prick in the casing, and they bubble through and you're done. Any tire pressure below like 85 PSI (for me) and they pinch flat like crazy.

Per Spackler you'll never get me to go back.

Zero G brakes!!!!

What about fixing a flat in a race? I was under the impression that getting the tire back on the rim was a serious PITA. That is why I have not considered running them.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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I think it might be somewhat batch-specific. I had a very early Corsa Speed that was absolutely brutal to get on a Jet+ rim. I've had more recent ones that I've done with my thumbs (still on the "harder" end of the spectrum, but manageable).

Try on a zipp 900 or non plus jet rim (not that these are really an option to run tubeless either). If only they made a non tubeless version of the corsa speed.
It is the thickness of the beads, not the tightness. They fill too much of the rim bed.

Hey, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything...I was just chiming in on a thread that was started, and more than one other person has asserted, that they had tried road tubeless and found the benefit/hassle ratio to be a bit low. That's not going to be the case for every person or situation, but from what I've observed, it's not an uncommon assessment. I could swap anecdotal stories with you all day on this subject...

On the topic of disc brakes on road bikes, did you happen to catch the penultimate (I think?) stage of the Dauphine? You know, the stage that was completely in the mountains and happened to be held in near-biblical rain conditions? That's the use case we're told that disc brakes on road bikes are a "no brainer", right? Take a look at the equipment choices (specifically brakes) of the guys leading the race (1st and 2nd groups on the road over the last 2 climbs) - of the ones who had a choice to run either a rim brake or a disc brake bike (i.e. basically all of them except the Bora guys). By my count, to a man they were all on rim braked bikes (and carbon wheels!). So...I guess I'm not alone in my assessment of them for pure racing applications :-)

But...as you said, I'm not going to convince you about any of this anyway...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm the definition of worry wart. And this was my #1 concern when I went tubless...WHAT IF I GOT A FLAT AT A RACE?!?

There are a few options

1. Put a tube in it just like you were running normal tubes. I've never found tubeless tires any more/less difficult to mount. The trick that most people forget is that the valve part of the wheel absolutely has to be mounted last. If you try it any other way you'll struggle to get it on.

2. If you can ride it in without stopping then just finish the race on the lower PSI tire. My experience is that most of the time (it's never happened in a race) a tubeless tire never goes completely flat.

3. Use a Dynaplug, plug the hole, throw some cO2 in it to get the PSI back up and be on your way.

In a race situation, #1 would be the worst case scenario.

I haven't had issues with getting the CS's off and on those Jet+s...but, I'm also VERY particular about my bead seating technique (and practiced, due to all of the tire testing I've done ;-) and rarely need to use even tire levers on most tires.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm talking about using Corsa speed with a tube. I'm not interested in road tubeless. Speed of fixing a flat is my only reason to consider it, but the chances of spraying sealant all about and just the general PITA of putting a new tire on means I have no interest in them.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Ditto, latex tubes were always an expensive, fussy, less reliable option. Was happy to jump to tubeless in mtn, cross, gravel and road. On road I still have one bike still on tubes, but they are not-latex. When the fancy stock racing tires wear out I will swap to road tubeless on that bike as well.

"Gunshot 'tubular flats' "? Hmmm...that's a new one on me. The only time you can get a "gunshot" is if the tube is outside the casing before it fails (such as tube mis-installation and trapped under a bead). With a tubular, that would basically mean a sidewall failure to get that to happen...

And yes...just like with a tubular (which, despite what you say, are well known to tend to be slow deflating when punctured), a latex tube inside of a clincher tire ALSO tends to be slow-deflating when punctured.

As an example, here's some pictures from the last puncture I had on my road bike. I pulled the following piece of glass/flint out of a tire with a latex tube in it. On the outside of the tire, that glass/flint chunk was nearly flush with the tread, and the remainder below the surface like an iceberg. The only clue it was there was that the tire was getting slightly soft as I was riding...




There was barely a mark/hole in the latex tube when I pulled it out...~3 minutes later I was back on the road after swapping in a tube (no levers necessary), with the majority of that time spent pumping it up with my frame pump.

Just sayin'...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

+1 on all this. After some personal use, and a lot of watching other racers in gravel and road races, I've come to the same conclusion. In *theory* road tubeless sounds great: seal your flats and keep riding! In practice, it only works sometimes (probably due to high road pressures) -- seen lots and lots of people drop out of road races on tubeless setups due to flats. And, if it doesn't work, you're in for a huge mess and a bigger repair job, and you have to carry a tube and CO2 anyway, so no benefit there. Also it's much more work to set up, and needs redoing every couple months even if you don't ride them, because the sealant dries up. Also no one mentions all the other tubeless problems: #1 by far is the very scary tubeless blowouts that I see more and more of - caused by the fact that there's no tube to firmly hold the tire bead on the hook of the rim, so it's way more likely to blow off, especially at road pressures. Another problem is valves that gum up and cause a slow flat because they no longer seal properly and air leaks through them (had one of those at a big road race this spring and was NOT impressed). Tubeless also is very subject to "mystery flats" - no obvious sealant leaking through the tire but it goes flat anyway - probably a rim tape or valve core issue, but who knows. Finally, the best tubeless tires are not faster or lighter than the best latex setups (sealant weight = tube weight), so it carries no real race benefit, just increased risk. In fact, true tubeless tires (TL rather than TLR) are much heavier because they essentially have both a tube (built in) *and* sealant. I do think tubeless is great for MTB and lower pressure gravel tires, but IMO not for road use.

I will be the first person to say (and agree with you) that this seems like a funny thing to debate. It clearly works for some and not for others.

However...I'm curious about your "Scary blowouts" comment. I've had more of those happen on tubes and never on tubeless. In my experience IF you get a flat, it's a very slow leak. Secondly if you have a tubeless wheel and tire. The bead should hook into the tire and hold it on.

Generally I hear the complaint from people that they though unseating the bead was difficult on a tubeless combo.

Have you seen tubeless blowouts with tires coming off the rim?

Totally yeah I've seen it several times. Every time so far it was either a parked bike, or a just riding along situation, so no bad accidents yet, but yeah it's way more prone to that than a tube setup. A common one is riding on a hot day where the sun warms the road and the tire a bit, making it more supple and also slightly increasing the air pressure, then bam! Just out of curiousity, I googled it and found this article describing exactly what I've seen: https://janheine.wordpress.com/...-with-road-tubeless/

Crazy, I've had that happen with tubes a few times. Never with tubes. I just did a race in 90+ degree heat and had no issues.

I honestly suspect they had the tires over inflated but we'll never know.

Wait..the article describes him intentionally over inflating the tires. Of course they are going to pop.

If you get a proper tubeless tire/wheel and follow the recommendations - that won't happen. That's not at all what he was doing in that link.

Read the article more carefully. He did that overinflation experiment with a particular tire he manufactures to see how it would react, but only after people telling him about real world blowouts with big name brand tubeless road tires (that he did not mention by name). Also the tire he tested is a very wide tire so much less prone to blowing off the rim than narrow tires. He mentions all that in the article.

Yeah, I've read that before. It's a good (if not slightly biased) article.

Again, I'm not trying to argue with you. Do what works for you. But you can also read the comments on that article that basically what he's doing doesn't make sense.

I can find a bunch wordpress articles talking about how great road tubeless is. Doesn't really matter if it doesn't work for you.

However, I will still stand by that if you have a proper tubeless wheel/tire and follow the PSI recommendations for the tire then you're fine. The problem I've seen with people is they try to jury rigg something or use the PSI they would have used on tubeless and are shocked when there is a problem.

For example, I use to run 120 PSI on tubes. The same tire, with tubeless setup has a max pressure of 90. If I had not read the specifications and inflated it to 120 I would have been in a world of hurt.

Stan's FAQ had this to say about road tubeless tire pressure:
"What pressure should I run in my tubeless road tires?
Rider weight and terrain will ultimately help you determine your preferred pressure; a good starting point is 10% lower than you would run with tubes."

So if we don't really run tubeless at the same pressure, articles that say that tubeless offers better rolling resistance are misleading because we aren't comparing the same PSI.

On the messy flat front, a much more knowledgeable rider than I said that in his experience the sealant sprays from a small puncture until the tire deflates to below 70lbs. So people running lower pressure would notice less spray than road cyclists at and over 70lbs PSI. This could be why there is a greater percentage of riders happy with tubeless in the MTB and gravel bike scene.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

so if you say run 90psi with tubes then you'd run about 80psi tubeless (though i don't understand why your optimal RR pressure would be lower) so only 10psi to lose before it stops spraying and seals which would be quite acceptable to just keep riding.

i think the main thing i take from this thread is that the OP was correct - it would be really good to have a poll of who has tried road tubeless (road bike, 28c max tyres etc, not gravel) and whether they are still using it. plenty of anecdotes either way so we need some stats on what percentage have found it worthwhile.

x2. It's almost like someone should run a poll, and then repeat the poll with the same questions a year later. :)

Just replying to you because it gives me a good point to start with on the subject. I’ve tried tubeless on MTB, Gravel, and Road tires.

For my mountain bikes, I’m a tubeless concert for life. I have two sets of MTB wheels (Mavic Crossmax Pro and Bontrager Line 30). I can seat tires with hand pumps on both. I’ve only had to resort to a compressor one time on the Bontrager rims. I’ve installed and seated tons of tires on the Mavic rims, which are UST, with complete ease and never had to resort to a compressor. In terms of flats, tubeless is clearly the way to go. I can’t tell you how often I find flats that fixed themselves without me noticing during the ride on my mtb tires.

For my gravel bike it’s been a mixed bag. Again, I have two wheel sets: a set of Reynolds ATRs in 700c and a set of FSA 650b wheels. With the Reynolds it’s a mixed bag when it comes to mounting and setting up tires tubeless. The 650b wheels are a total disaster and nearly impossible to set up tubeless. I’ve re-taped them so many times I stopped counting. There either isn’t enough tape and the tires feel like they’ll fall of the rim or there’s too much tape and I can barely seat the tire with a compressor. I’ve successfully mounted one set of tires tubeless on the 650b wheelset and didn’t experience a single flat in 500 miles of riding over some pretty chunky gravel. I have had flats using the same tires with tubes on the same circuit prior to getting tubeless “right” on that wheelset. The 700c wheelset also hasn’t seen a flat either (at least that I’ve noticed) while set up tubeless.

On the road side the only straightforward setup I’ve used has been the Mavic CXR UST wheels. Tires were easy to install and seated with a hand pump. No flats and I’d race them... if they rolled a touch faster. I experimented with the Corsa Speeds on my HED wheels... screw that. Install was a huge pain and that tire was crazy fragile. I flatter twice in my neighborhood on roads that are literally perfect. Neither flat sealed in a way that I would want to ride for an extended period of time.

Summing my own observations, I’ve noticed that installation and setup gets more difficult as tires get narrower and the ability of the tires to seal a puncture gets worse as well. Not sure if that’s due to air pressure, casing thickness, or a combination. Also, Mavic is doing something right with UST. The tire bead and rim profile need to be designed together and quality control for both (Millimeters matter). ETERO supposedly is about to release their Tubeless Road standard, that will probably make installations much easier going forward. That said, I’m not sure tubeless road will ever seal as consistently as tubeless MTB. I can change our a tube in about a minute on a normal road tire. If I have to put a tube into a tubeless road tire... longer. Possibly much longer. And it’s a pain. Really wouldn’t want to have to do that in a race.

To summarize:
MTB: tubeless convert
Gravel: unsure but probably tubeless
Road: tube for training, tube for racing long course, tubeless for racing short course (because if I flat I’m off the podium anyways so might as well trade a bit of extra flat protection for a more difficult flat repair).

Uhm, right. Solid logic there. But anyway, the most winning team so far this year is on disc bikes. So maybe they’re smarter than the rest?

Wait...so you're saying that based on the equipment choices shown in that stage, the conclusion that the vast majority of the riders WITH A CHOICE for that course and under those conditions, decided that any possible braking benefits from using a disc-braked bike wasn't worth the trade-offs in other performance parameters is illogical? Umm...OK :-/


Or, maybe it says more about the types of courses and conditions that the majority of the races are held in than anything else? The performance trade-offs are different.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/