The average ultra runner runs at a 13:16 pace......So no, triathletes do not need to adjust there thinking. Just because a run is part of the race its a totally different race and mindset.

On avg the most bottles a person can carry on a bike at any one time is 3. In a hot race, including hitting your special needs bag, you can consume 6 bottle.....if we follow your math. I have seen people, including the pros, consume a lot more than that on the bike leg especially in a hot race. So again two different races with two different mindsets.

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You are wrong on all counts and just illustrate the lack of thinking..

People can easily fit more than three bottles worth on and/or in their bikes and then add a small hydration pack and you are good for 90k..Fast Ultra runners use hydration packs in races all the time.There is no need for an aid station every mile on the run.Every five or six miles would be fine depending on the course.

The races will no longer be full service and that comes at a cost.That cost will be time on the clock at the end of the day.

Whatever dude........glad to see that YOU how all triathletes should race. Just illustrates your lack of thinking.

Maybe I’m short sighted and missing the point or maybe it’s because I’ve only done a handful of big races and tons of local stuff. But without the pomp and circumstance of Ironman (a million aid stations, fans, banquets) what’s the point for BOPers all the way up to FMOPers to consider these expensive races? I’d really really like to do a second Ironman. But if it’s still going to cost $700 and I don’t get the banquet, concert, live jazz band on the run course, and support I’d much rather save my money and do a local 70.3. Or even (gasp) a bunch of sprints and Oly’s.

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I still lapped everyone on the couch!

I would think you could still have volunteers at the bike aid stations. Most of riders are usually grabbing a bottle from volunteers while still riding. If the volunteer had a mask and gloves on, that would seem safe enough to me. Same if some volunteers were holding out gels as people rode by.
If a rider wanted to stop for nutrition, everything could be laid out on the table, self serve style with volunteers standing away from the table and just refilling stock as it ran low.

I wouldn't mind using my Fuel Belt on the run, as long as there were some self serve aid stations with gels and cups of water laid out. I wouldn't have a problem grabbing what I need off the table and re-filling my own bottles.

Everyone should be able to carrry minimally 4 bottles. One between aero, two behind saddle, one on frame (some frames only have one). This should be enough for everyone to get back to special needs to stop, go get their bag, get 4 more bottles, and return to the course.

You could even make the special needs stop a mandatory T1.5 transition 2 minutes for everyone. Chip picks up your time in, and if you leave earlier than 2 minutes, then it just corrects your time. This way everyone takes their time to get their personal nutrition properly and no one does anything completely stupid and heads out for another 90km in 37C heat with no fluid.

You really would need zero volunteers on the course for aid stations if you do it this way. Just force us to self support (and no need for throngs of spouses, friends, grandparents and kids supporting us).

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Yep Dev and so much of the logistics are course dependant..

I would not even try to include the pro's in the same discussion and would not be surprised to see an even bigger time gap between agers and pro's at the start and pro only aid stations on the bike and run. I would also not be surprised to see more age group only races to make things a little easier to control with the pro calendar.Personally I reckon it would add a different set of skills to racing Ironman as the real issue of nutrition and how each person manages their time comes into play.

Reckon I might leave my pannier racks on my bike for Ironman Cairns and strap a cooler on. :-)

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Exactly. Let's think through this. An athlete trains for 4 months for an Ironman. 2 days prior he or she wakes up with a little sore throat. 100% chance they will ignore and push through.

This whole thing is the same self certification BS companies are rolling out for their workforce.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

As a safety measure it's essential to have multiple aid stations throughout the course. People may forget to put drink bottles on their bike, crash and lose the bottles, hit a pothole and lose them, misjudge the amount needed etc. These scenarios are unlikely, but out of 1,000/2,000 people the chances are a few will have something like this happen.

I think you're right on the mark with this.
Every event I have ever been to, appears to have a one to one ratio of spectator to racer.
Who is going to marshal and control them. Good luck trying to tell them where, how and what to do.

I have no issue with self serve on the run. Makes sense and the bike part I agree.......however I do think that you need someone at the aid stations so when an athlete is in some kind of medical trouble they can at least make a phone call.

I’m thinking the same thing. I’m signed up for IM Wisc, but I’m just gonna take the deferral to next year. Even if it ends up happening, it sounds like it’s gonna be water downed version of it. I don’t want to do that. It’s my first, and perhaps only full IM, and I would like the full experience, especially since I paid full price. If by next year, they still can’t give the full experience, well then that’s just the world we will be living in then, so at that point it is what it is.

Those third and fourth bottles are going to taste and feel awesome after several hours in the heat and sun. By the time you put the bottles on the bike in transition, do the swim, and reach special needs could easily be five hours later for the majority of the athletes. Let’s use average-ish swim and bike times of 1:20 and 6:00. Let’s say transition closes at 6:45 AM. Odds are you got there much earlier than that and traveled some small distance to the race site. So let’s say your four bottles have now been unrefrigerated since 6 AM. Pros go off at 7:00, your wave or whatever ends up going off at 7:20. You take 1:20 to swim. Now it’s at least 8:45 when you get on the bike. Nearly three hours later you reach the special needs at the halfway mark. Now it’s 11:45 AM. For shits and giggles let’s assume you were drinking at regular intervals along the way so it’s more or less a new bottle every 45 minutes or so. So bottle 2 you start at around 9:30 (unrefrigerated for 3:30), bottle 3 at 10:15 (unrefrigerated for 4:15), and bottle 4 at 11:00 (unrefrigerated for 5:00). Let’s say it’s sunny, temps at race start were 70, and it was in the 80’s by the time you reach special needs. Yeah, that’s going to taste and feel great. But, but, but.... you can freeze them. <insert rolleyes emoji>

Then what about my four bottles at special needs? How do they get there? Have those bottle now been sitting unrefrigerated for about six hours? So my last bottle will be unrefrigerated for eight hours by the time I get to it. Or are we going to have 2,000 small coolers lined up along special needs to keep our four drink bottles cold? Is anyone watching over them? How much space do you need for 2,000 coolers. How do we get the coolers back? Who cleans it up?

I think you get the point.

Me personally, I take in a lot of nutrition and hydration. I end up averaging about 500 cal/hour. Two bottles an hour is a bare minimum. Four bottles isn’t going to cut it. For the 2:30 to 2:40 it takes me to get to the halfway point I’ve gone through probably six to eight bottles (combination of Gatorade and water), depending on temperatures.

What do folks riding a TriRig Omni do? There’s no frame mount for a bottle. So you can really only put three bottles on that particular bike. A peculiar situation but an issue nonetheless for people that have one.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I am confused why you need cold bottles and why the nutrition has to taste good. Its not a restaurant....cavemen survived exclusivly on air temperature nutritio. Its doable. But if you don't like it, you don't need to race at least initially.

I've done entire Ironmans on what I started with and what I picked up at special needs and nothing from the course on the bike, and conversely I have done Ironmans with nothing other than one bottle cage and what they give me on course.

Pretty well most half IM's I do, I just take my own bottles because the speed slowdown penalty of coming out of aero at aid stations and all the risk factor at aid stations with other athletes and volunteers is not a great tradeoff vs the additional weight of 2 bottles.

Its really a matter of how you want to simplify or over complicate your racing.

If there are races with zero support during an IM other than special needs people will figure it out. There is always the Lionel camelback option too.

LOL tell thousands of athletes who have jobs, families, and responsibilities that there is "no need" for their families and friends to support them. These families have sacrificed a lot so their athlete could train to do a IM. Tell the families that their support was in vain because there is "no need" for them to see the end results of their own sacrifice. Good luck with that BS.

I agree, I was thinking the run volunteers could stay back from the tables and just refill whats on the table when it gets low or if someone needs aid but basically the runners would be grabbing their own stuff.

For fuck sakes, we are not cavemen. We used to hunt and forage too. Now we have grocery stores. A lot of people can’t stomach piss warm drinks when it’s hot and they’re hot. I, for one, can’t stomach bath water warm Gatorade. Sure, if I’m lost and stranded in the middle of a desert and come across a warm bottle of water I will drink it for survival but this isn’t what we are talking about here. If I’m paying $750 to race I want a safe course and some hydration/nutrition. That’s all. Not too much to ask. Otherwise, what am I paying $750 for?

You go ahead and drink your bottle of Gatorade that’s been sitting in a plastic bag on the side of the road in 80-something degree heat and sun for eight hours. That sounds wonderful.

What’s more simple than having aid stations every 10-15 miles so folks can get hydration? You’re the one who advocated for no aid stations which “over complicates” the racing far more than having aid stations. Self supported does not mean easier or less complicated. Aid stations by definition are meant to assist you and make things easier.

Run course is easy. Set up tables, athletes grab what they need, volunteers refill. No need for human on human interaction.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

So after all the sacrifice the families do they have to sacrifice another entire day? To hell with that, let them live their lives. My A race is a half ironman in my town and one year my family came to watch me finish and the next year my son came to watch me finish because he happened to be there surfing. Why should they waste a perfectly good weekend day to watch me for a few seconds every half hour ride by on my bike or run by? If they want to see that they can just look out the window just about every day.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

I buy a mid size cheap insulated lunch bag and 3 bags of frozen peas (about $8). My 2 bike bottles for in there - I fetch them in spec needs. They are always cold. I think that you are over complicating things a bit.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

You know what's not complicated? Aid stations every 10-15 miles in which someone hands me water or Gatorade. While they're wearing gloves and masks, of course.

No shit that an insulated lunch bag would work. I've done that too. I'm being a bit sarcastic with my remarks to make a point.

That stated... two bottles gets me an hour down the road. So now I need two of those bags or one twice the size. Plus I need more than four so where do I put them on my bike.

With Dev's four bottles to start and another four bottles at special needs (eight total) I'm still four to six bottles short of what I need. So I'd like for someone to tell me how I put six or seven bottles on my bike at a time. So then I can reload another six or seven when I reach the halfway point. Trust me, I'm not the only person that drinks more than eight bottles of hydration during a 112 mile bike ride.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

We're talking about racing not playing Captain Dickie Doo Doo with a stick up his ass. Are you advocating piss warm G2; a Camelbak; 4 frame bottles of thawing, leaking, frozen drink; 8 GU's taped on the top tube; and 4 Clif Bars stuffed who knows where? Sure it can be done, but it is totally counterproductive. Next you'll be advocating no wetsuits and Speedo's only. I love my Speedo, but not for racing.

Look I see what you're saying as far as logistically making it work. Sure, but how effectively is it working. I'll tell you right now the answer based on your formula is it's a very poor solution for those who pay to race.

My biggest concern would be the bottle swap on the bike. I carry 1 bottle BTA for 70.3. Tube taped under the saddle...lightweight baby! Sure I can throw the single mount Gorilla Cage on the back, but why carry an extra 1lb? Remember we are trying to race, this is not a training session of slow old men.

Camelbak, Speedfil and 4 bottles...Lmao!

I’m floored that some folks think you need a bike aid station every 10-15 miles. That’s wayyyy overkill.,,,and I ride/race in South Florida year round. Maybe, maybe every 20 miles, but even that’s some serious pampering.

As far as family/spectators, I tell my wife and kid to stay away and we’ll see each other at the awards presentation. I’d rather they enjoy their day touring a new city rather than sitting around for hours waiting to see me for a few seconds.

I left 2 bottles of Skratch in SN at IM Canada 2 years ago on that 95 degree day. they were frozen overnight and wrapped in foil. wasn't sure if they would stay cold or not but amazingly they still had ice in them about 6 hours later. now granted about 15' after that in the ridiculous heat, they were warm. but there are ways to make this possible. certainly not ideal by any stretch. but IMs are hard.

Actually there IS a frame mount. Just forward of the seat post. And another mount on the rear surface of the seat post itself. And you can also run two bottles on the Alpha One bars, either going under/over (there are five individual M5 holes), or use a Wolftooth B-Rad to keep them both on top (that’s what Matt Russell does).

So space for up to six bottles on Omni if you really need that many!

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