haha +1

no but in court I'd want that sample tested in a scientific lab (which it would be) and have the scientific evidence that it is in fact shit.

I have no doubt that in a world where doping did not exist that the results of the Tours would have been mostly the same. <--THIS is pure speculation. Whether LA had better dope than everyone else is pure speculation <--THIS is anecdotal for sure but it is NOT pure specualtion.

I'm sorry you think my post is bizarre, but this obsession with LA is what is bizarre when the issue is really one of social dynamics.

At some level everything is an issue of social dynamics but accusing sports fans who want clean sport of some sort of middle class hypocrisy...is...as another poster put it "come back to us Robert." I don't dope and to use your example I don't screw my neighbour. I like my morals just fine and while I'll acknowledge that had I been an infinitely better cyclist I could have found myself in DZ or TH's shoes I'm pretty confident I'd never act like the guy portrayed in this decision and that I would never, ever have the gall to then sign my name to an ad like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q8Y0uL-4oA. No, I think I'll be just as dissappointed and angry about what Armstrong has done to a sport I love as I choose thanks.

-Robert

I can't say it enough... I believe the guy doped in my heart..

However.. until someone shows me undisputable evidence, I just can't convict the guy.. I need that "without a doubt" feeling.

I hope more comes out today with scientific evidence

I hope I missing a huge section of this report..

I just want closure.. I think we all do... and for me right now that 00.01% is really bugging me.

haha.. I hate myself right now as well.. I'm stuck on a fence and wish I wasn't.

my gut says yes, the report points to yes, Its obvious it was yes, but yet that key piece of evidence is still not being shown..

blahhh...I hope I never get picked for jury duty

I also am having great laughs at Francois touting his buddies as the bastions of truth who never exaggerated or made talk of LA personal while claiming LA fans always did that


I'm just relieved that you are ok. I thought with the report out you might take it a little too hard.

The Feds dropped the case officially because they were asked to. But I bet you're going to hear from novitzky shortly.

Have you heard of the Fifth Amendment?

-Robert

You are entitled to not care that Lance doped because everyone did, but gone are the days where we can think Lance is/was clean.

What our legal system requires is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It does not require and never has required absolute certainty. It sounds to me as if you believe he doped and that your belief is beyond a reasonable doubt. Why are you asking for absolute certainty?

...

Ah, nice. And there ends any hope of rational discussion.

John

I would hope WTC is thankful at this moment to USADA for instituting a ban earlier this year. I'm sure having LA involved in Ironmans would have been financially lucrative, but WTC has avoided one huge PR disaster. I'll going to be somewhat disappointed if Nike, Oakely, SRAM, Trek continue to remain onboard with LA. Each company has received their benefit in the past decade; it seems like now is the appropriate time to move on. And I would be disappointed in Leopard RS if they do not institute some personnel changes prior to any federation bans that may come out.

I'm not sure one can draw a straight line, or a crooked one, between one man's alleged drug use and kids' drug use. I just don't hear kids saying "You know, I want to be just like Lyle Alzado, Vince McMahon and Barry Bonds." Young males are programmed for domination to spread their seed, and drugs are one means to that end; some are simply attracted to the fame and money. The WAR ON DRUGS, at all levels, has been a disaster. This case is a small sliver of the overall drug problem, which wil not go away with high profile prosecutions of drug users. In fact, the prosecution of Lance Armstrong is more likely to make kids think they need to get some steroids and EPO to become great too. Never understimate the value of unintended consequences. And this is one reason the WAR ON DRUGS has been a colossal failure on all fronts.

George Hincapie protected his financial future by throwing Armstrong under the bus. All those guys who got a six month slap on the wrist gave statements implicating LA primarily so they could protect themselves. None of those statements were given for honorable reasons or to elevate cycling. They never are. Why would anyone give them the time of day? They are not only drug cheats, but self-absorbed nihilistic opportunists. I thought Hincapie was better than this, but he wasn't and isn't.

I haven't read all of the USADA's brief in support of its conclusions, but I'd say the evidence looks, on first reading, stronger than I suspected. Nonetheless, we have been unable to hear an opposing argument. And LA can't bribe witnesses the way USADA has done. So, I remain cautious about drawing firm conclusions. We need BOTH sides of this story.

USADA's procedures for investigating and prosecuting these cases are smarmy at best and should be re-visited by the governing Board of USADA.

-Robert