I dont think this issue is just TIT, which is why I offered my input that if I were an RD again, I would have events within races. Meaning, I would put the first waves out with folks who signed up for AG elites, meaning, all the rules would be used. After that is done, all the rest of the folks would be doing an "Event", where they are far enough behind the AG elites to not impact them, and you dont worry about all the non safety rules. Best of all worlds. The RD gets more folks, more money, and less complaints. Our sport is getting too large to think everyone wants to race. Most just want to go out and have fun with their friends and get some exercise which we should embrace them, not turn them away!!

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Actually, there is an element of brilliance to your idea. Seriously.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

One problem with having "events" within the race is that a lot of the rules are there as safety measures. The blocking and pack riding by a bunch of inexperienced riders is an accident waiting to happen. Then the RD is the one stuck with a lawsuit because some @ss can't be responsible for himself when he crashes. Courses that require more than one loop can be problematic as well because the faster/ competition people are stuck behind "event" packs.

THey dont enforce most of the rules today anyways, so call it an event with the same rules, but they get no awards, or USAT rankings or any of that stuff.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My only problem with doing an event free of any TIT presence is that it really hurts my age group placing. I just did my first HIM and had there been 10 or 15 TIT folks in my age group I might have moved firmly into the middle of the pack.

My second triathlon I trained with TIT. I had great coaching from folks who emphatically emphasized the rules of triathlon. For me, it was a very good experience and helped me get on track with focused training. I strongly suspect that any TIT coach is giving out the good information but the energy come race day can be pretty overwhelming.

Most races that I have participated in do have a late wave that is a TIT wave if they are present at the race.

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Everbody looks good at the starting line.

I believe they actually did this for St. A's this year. I was not there, but I seem to recall hearing about a TNT wave which did not count towards any rankings and such. I don't know if there were any rules for this wave.

yup, i hear ya, it is a race, i was suppose to be recovering this weekend from a very slight injury, but instead i decided to race muskoka regardless, i know i'll probably suck balls but what more can i do, i'll still do my best and it will be my fault if i suck, there are no other assailants in this story of mine.

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"The aspect of sport that you learn is that you have your good times and your bad times, but you share it with great people." - George Gregan

The more I think about it Tom the better idea it seems to be. How many folks that NEVER ride 100 miles go do a club century? Lots. They show up, pay $40.00 (that is what I paid last week) and for that they ride unsupported but for rest areas where you drink warm water and eat PB&J...a great time was had by all. People dont feel like it is a "race" as it isnt - the tension and stress is gone. Come up with a cause, a location and make it public as an event like a club ride and I think in the right place it would be a runaway hit. Say...Michigan maybe?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Yeah, no STer would ever make excuses for being slow in a race, not training, not racing....

Oh wait. Nevermind.

St. Anthony's did have all the TNT's start at the back.

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Yes

Record

since you are obviously a superior athlete, if not plain ole superior individual, why dont you bless the local tnt chapter with the gift of your presence and volunteer to coach the lost sheep. This way you wont have and excuse to whine, and lord knows how you feel about excuses

Not only did they have the TNT wave start at the back, but the athletes did not count towards AG rankings, thus making the field pretty competitive (good or bad, depending on where you fall in the rankings!) I can understand having the newbie wave start last, but I have a hard time understanding why they then don't count towards their AG. They did the same race, trained the same amount (some, probably more) than the rest of us, and should be counted as participating athletes with the rest of us. I just hope that they were told ahead of time that their performances would not count in the AG rankings.

Anti TIT...sure am. I love it when I hear fat women at a race telling that they are not there for the "Type A competition of the race and are there for a better purpose"...um, no...it is a race. They should follow the same rules as the rest of us. If they dont, they should be DQ'ed and asked to leave the course. That simple. The rules are in black and white and include "no drafting", "no blocking" and "no outside support". Pretty simple english there if they were to bother to read them, and god forbid abide by them.



Why not expand that idea to ALL competitors that are new to the sport or inexperienced. Like you mention in another post, perhaps give them their own race. It'll be the Newbie/TnT race. That would probably cut my local races down by 50% or so. Probably raise the cost to me and maybe it wouldn't be cost effective for the RD to put it on at all. In fact, forcing new people out of the races, maybe out of the sport, will bring us back to the good ol' days, when there were no closed courses, no aid stations, no organization.

Sounds brilliant.

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Father Kevin

http://www.churchofcycling.org

So your point is that if people know they will have to follow the rules then 50% wont show up? I dont know I beleive that. It is simple - everyone has to follow the rules. Does not seem so far fetched to me. How many people you see on local softball teams show up to a league game and just deicde to play their way...damn the umpires! They are there just for enjoyment right? Why follow any rules in any activity?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Paulo,

Agreed.

People always get on very thin ice here with this discussion and I don't really understand it.

The barriers to getting into this sport are getting higher all the time. Thsi should be a concern for those that are interested in REALLY growing the sport. We should NOT be turning away anybody.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Even if these participants dont want to follow the rules?


Sure the drafting debate may be a joke to some, I am an Anti Drafting person...and think that if the rules of the race say no drafting it is a pretty simple rule to follow. Where is the line drawn? Can someone who is not a strong swimmer and MOP / BOP just decide to wear a wetsuit? Well, maybe some of us can just mount our bikes at the rack as opposed to the mount lines...what will it hurt? How about rollerblades for the run.

The fact is people will always draft, but when they go into a race with no desire to follow the rules something needs to change. Though all should be welcome, rules should be followed.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I also agree.

I do think, however, that TIT and everyonce else entering a race are there to participate in a race.

Part of the racing experience is following the rules, especially the rules that concern saftey and impeding the progress of others.

TIT in particular should be taught by their coaches that they can not draft and they can not block.

If they get outside assistance, I don't really care.

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beyourownsuperhero

I don't think anyone should be turned away, but I do think TNT needs to overhaul their program a bit to address some problems. I brought this up about a year and a half ago.


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ple%20menace;#369679

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

I agree on that as well.

I was once told by a course marshal that I had broken that rule by taking a napkin from a guy at the "Down the Hill Grill" to wipe off my sunglasses...it was just a warning. I think a dumb one at that.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

If they get outside assistance, I don't really care

I care.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

last year i was a draft marshal at the local tri, riding my spiffy honda hawk GT. late in the race, i came upon on group of females, all riding in a group. i would not say they were purposely drafting, per se. it looked as if they did not know drafting even existed as a concept. the fact of it was that they wanted to be all together to talk as they rode along the OLY course - or so it seemed.

i rode up to them, lifted up the helmet visor and asked, " what i am supposed to do with you all ??"

they cheerfully answered, " hi !! we wanna ride together. we're a family !! "

i noted " but you are all cheating !! "

to which they replied happily, " we know !!! "

i just said " well, don't pass anybody. "

to which they repliied " we won't !! ", still happy as pigs in shit.

i rode away. whatareyagonnado. they had a great day, and i went off looking for scumbag cheaters to bust.

Give 'em a penalty. Then, give 'em another one. Then, DQ them. When they go to check the results and see they got DQ'ed, maybe some of them will actually play by the rules the next time. Maybe not, but at least you're enforcing the rules.

As a newbie and a BOP/MOP'er (for a little while anyway), I don't understand people who don't want to follow rules or feel like they are not racing, but just "experiencing" a triathlon.

The pride in being able to call yourself a triathlete, marathoner or any other difficult endurance endeaver is knowing that you set out a goal, followed a training plan and completed a race with the rest of the competitors as an athlete. For me, taking shortcuts and getting special treament, or being in a special race would detract from all my hard work.

Last May I was a sedintary and could not run a mile without walking. Since then, I have completed a sprint triathlon, olympic distance triathlon, placed 2nd in my age group in 2 5k races and ran my first marathon in under 4 hours. Even though some of these races had less than stellar results, at least I ran the same race and completed the same feat as the elites I saw running toward me as they were coming toward the finish line. I would not be able to have the same feeling of accomplishment as I do now if I were given special treatment. Most of my fellow newbies feel the same way.

Maybe I am just old fashioned.

Here's another one: doing a little sprint Tri for Fun over the weekend; lots and lots of newbies but the first wave that goes off are all the "competitive" guys and gals. On an 11-mile bike ride I had at least two people attempting to draft off me in various places, saw another couple guys very obviously riding together and heard stories about another train out there in the latter stages of the ride.

Unbelievable....it's shameful at any race, at any distance but come on---a friggin Tri for Fun and you feel like you have to draft/cheat??????

[reply]The barriers to getting into this sport are getting higher all the time. [/reply]

wait...what? The barriers haven't changed a bit - in fact, they've been considerably lowered by groups that lobby because they have a "right" to participate.

guess what? not everyone can be an IM. life sucks. train harder next time.