[reply]I agree with you. But, when the marshal started the group of bikers knew the rules, and didnt care, then what do you do? Just leave and ignore them like he said? Or do you first tell them to follow the rules or he would have to DQ them? Dave[/reply]

I also think thats a problem... what if me and a group of 5 of my friends are out there laughing and everything having fun going 23 mph on the bike course is that okay since we are having fun? does that mean we don't get a penalty.

Grant

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Grant
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If the group of you 5 are in single file and not in the draft zone, I assume you are legal. If not, clear penalty. Once the word gets out in a race that rules will be enforced, it will clean up real real quick.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i meant that sarcastically... sorry... what i was trying to imply was that since the family of women was having fun talking it was okay since they were going slow. In that officials eyes. So what makes us going faster any different.

Grant

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Grant
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Sorry, missed that.

I just love the folks who will rag on a rule that they see to their advantage to being enforced, but then see a rule that impacts them so they try to justify why that rule should be modified.

Seems like our entire society is in this mode. See it on the news every night.

Oh well, all I know is at the next races I work, if I am in an area with rules, I will get clarified with the RD before the race what the enforcement is. Now, if there is no enforcement, I will ask to work in a different area since I cant just ignore folks who ignore the rules. Even worse at the fun tris since if folks are trained that rules are a joke, guess what happens when some move up into the larger races.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I really don't get why people want to race if they aren't going to follow the rules or at least try to. I mean i have only done two races and forgot my race number on the run in the first one. My mistake i didn't get a penalty, but i learned my lesson and had my race number stuck in my shoes for the sprint one last weekend.

I don't know who said the rules are complicated they are nuts there are like a total of maybe 10 rules its not that difficult.

Grant

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Grant
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I agree. But, if one enters a USAT race, then it seems folks are paying to have the rules enforced. Meaning, no matter how some may seem dumb like race number, or outside assistance, or radios, one expects a certain level of "quality" at these races.

Now, at non USAT tri races, bending some may be okay. But, just like so many go wild that no drafting can be allowed at ANY race because its dangerous, headphones, IMO, and RD of races I have talked to, all agree they are equally dangerous and will not be allowed. I am now just asking are they going to DQ them since them saying no headphones the last few years is not working.

But, I know this is all black and white and it will never happen.

So Dev, I hope you do your race, tell folks the rules and enforcement before hand, and then hand out the violations for folks who want to be above them.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I had a friend who was dq'd for warming up on a trainer without a helmet before the race-do you think people are "paying" for that kind of rule to be enforced? Aren't you a little bit on a high horse, society parallels, etc. C'mon.

Thats exactly what should happen to them. One the bike at anytime w/o a helmet, the rules say you are DQ'ed. What race was that, sounds like the RD should be thanked.

Yep, I sure am paying for this. Ever been an RD and had to worry about liability insurance?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave -

I do agree with you here as well. TNT, BOP, or newbies in general should not be exempt from USAT rules if they are at a USAT race. Blocking, drafting, riding w/o helmet...they should get the penalties that go with the crime. By allowing them to NOT be penalized introduces a sport very different from the one we all play when we race a triathlon.

In the case of these women, or any group that claims it does not know the rules, then complaints should be lodged to the training organization that they came from, and the coaches therein reprimanded. There shouldn't be a double standard, just because they are newbies. Let them race, make them abide by the rules, and help them learn so that next time, they don't get in your way.

[reply]last year i was a draft marshal at the local tri, riding my spiffy honda hawk GT. late in the race, i came upon on group of females, all riding in a group. i would not say they were purposely drafting, per se. it looked as if they did not know drafting even existed as a concept. the fact of it was that they wanted to be all together to talk as they rode along the OLY course - or so it seemed.

i rode up to them, lifted up the helmet visor and asked, " what i am supposed to do with you all ??"

they cheerfully answered, " hi !! we wanna ride together. we're a family !! "

i noted " but you are all cheating !! "

to which they replied happily, " we know !!! "

i just said " well, don't pass anybody. "

to which they repliied " we won't !! ", still happy as pigs in shit.

i rode away. whatareyagonnado. they had a great day, and i went off looking for scumbag cheaters to bust.[/reply]

And when I, as someone who generally gets stuck in the last wave in most races around here, catches up and cannot pass without crossing the center line, then who is the pig in shit?

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

>>Those that participate in any endurance event for a cause (TNT, AIDS marathon...there are a bunch) raise a TON of money, which for those who haven't tried, is a lot of work.<<

What the hell does that have to do with anything? We all have our crosses to bear in life.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

<So I have been checking into TNO cause I posted there about the Midwest Mixer...what the fuck is up with them? Seems they all have an excuse for something and everything>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the same dude that authored numerous posts blaming your shitty run at Florida 70.3 on lost Thermotabs? I mean, I'm sure you would have run 1:25 with them, but some may construe this as a bit of an excuse in itself. Not me of course. I know you're wicked fast and not to be messed with.

And what about us athletes who go out and raise money for a charity - in my case Make-A-Wish - and do it entirely on our own? I don't have "coaches" or "teammates" or a team uniform announcing to the world that (a) I'm raising money, (b) I'm inexperienced, and (c) I should be given special consideration because of (a) and (b). My second tri - all of three weeks after my first - was an iron distance race. I was as green and inexperienced as you could get. But, you know what I did as part of my training? learned all the rules...despite the fact, as you note, that there are a lot of them. I have a hard time understanding why TNT'ers need to be looked upon differently from the rest of the racers - sure, it's great that they are raising money, but I don't think that should merit them any slack in regards to rules or their ability to get around the course without being an impediment to others.

I've since done a handful of IM's and have always gone about my fundraising - and racing - quietly. I think TNT's reputation would improve dramatically if they started doing the same.

OK, I am a TNT coach. I am not a great athlete, but I love the sport. Let me tell you, if TNT people are cheating on the bike it is not because they don't know the rules. The coaches I have met are by and large exceptional athletes. Every TNT coach must attend certification training for 4 days by our national coach. You may know him, they call him The Man. We drill the rules into our participants. Just once, forget the purple jersey, and go to a local race and see if you see other people doing this, that aren't with TNT.

And for those so concerned with safety and following the rules in the race, raise your hand if you have never, and I mean NEVER, blown thorugh a stop sign on the bike, or a red light. Did you know that was against the law? Riding 2 abreast in traffic when against the law? Did you know that it was potentially unsafe? Why did you do it?

Oh, and Jar1635, I applaud what you did. And you are right, one of the things I dislike about the TNT program is all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding it. I am also on the Board of our local chapter, and see their finances. It is scary really. Well over half of their income comes from TNT events, and that is pretty typical across the country. Each local chapter has to send money up stream to Nationals, it isn't the other way around. All money spent in a particular area is rasied by that local chapter. It really is a cumbersome set-up, and one that depends far too heavily on events. National office mandates pretty agressive budget goals, and mandates that expenses stay under 30%, including their fee. I only relate this to try and explain why some chapters seem to be so aggressive in their TNT activities, it is the lifeblood now of the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. I have talked myself blue at Board meetings about this, because if ever there is a definition of putting your eggs all in one basket, this is it. LLS has become totally dependent on event-based fundraising.

kathy wonders . . .

"And when I, as someone who generally gets stuck in the last wave in most races around here, catches up and cannot pass without crossing the center line, then who is the pig in shit?"

look, here is the thing. this group of kvetching sisters was not in anybody's way. the course was closed to traffic, in any case. it was a perfectly smooth, newly asphalted lakeside road with nobody but this little group putting along at the back. or, if there was some other backmarker around the scene was such that it was no problem to just scoot past them with a " howdy there" to the group - nobody in this area of the race was concerned with results of any sort - it was the laughing group, OK?? i believe a few of the younger woman in the group had first wave starts in the swim, and actually waited at T1 for the later, older swimmers to get in before they ventured out onto the bike course together.

the situation could not possibly have been more casual - honestly the hardline attitudes put forth by some into this most recreational of situations is pretty surprising to me, but hey there ya go. anyway, the RD did express his relief to me that everything was cool with the nice family, and that he was relieved that his lead marshall was not a dick, out there giving ridiculous penalties to putzing families at the back of the race. what a funny thread, and attitudes from a few on the topic here in the forum, by contrast !!!

I think we all see both sides, and can agree a bit with both. While I love the fact a family can have an awesome day there is still the rules. That is where my idea of a recreational Tri comes into play (again, it would be much like a club century)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Cathy, great question. Let see, if you passed over the yellow line to pass them, would he have DQed you?

Or even worse, what if one got killed trying to pass them going over the yellow line like at the Sierra Century?

Rules are there for reasons, and its for the safety of all racers, and the marshalls have a moral obligation to not second guess them and enforce them equally on everyone, IMO.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Seriously not being a smartass here, and I'm not perfect, but no, I have never run a red light or stop sign. Even if the people I'm riding with do it, I don't. We have enough targets on us, I don't want anymore.

Usually the reason I do most of my riding alone!


Edit: another reason I ride alone: I don't do the two abreast thing either, it slows cars down and they get pissed at us. ect. (In my nutty mind I feel like they might want to take revenge the next time they see a cyclist).

That you Slayer?

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bluemonkey said it all about TNT. I have worked with two TNT groups in two cities and rules were discussed and reminded in both cases.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, what a bunch of snobs. Maybe if some of you get off your high horse and volunteer to help out some newbies, whether they are TNT or kids or anything you might get a clue. Sad, very sad.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Cathy, I am in the same boat as you. My federation wishes to DQ any one crossing the yellow line for any reason, while turning a blind eye to 'blocking'. I have to say that it has dimished my desire to race. Some races i look at and think - why bother.

The real solution id for race directors to have a citizens wave at the back for these people. Then they can participate haowever they please. It is so obvious and easy. Why don't they?

A white "fortune city" web hosting square?

I guess it could be.

Damn this silly computer device!

No, it's paranoid Homer Simpson. Too bad you can't see it.

Hey look behind you! Your boss is looking over your shoulders!!!!!

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Good judgment. It didn't matter.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev