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Re: Race Wheels [Dean T] [ In reply to ]
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Dean T wrote:
I've gained over 2mph average bike race speed, by leg strength training in the gym. Something to consider, if you don't already. I was also frustrated at throwing $$$ at equipment for very little improvement. I'm also an AG racer, and top 10 overall at local races.

I do zero strength training. Not averse to it. Just not part of the routine. I could easily add in a lunch-time circuit. You have my attention.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:


VI from last race was 0.93. IF was 0.91.

I'll work on the pic.

I thought VI had to be 1.0 or higher, mathematically speaking?

You're right. It was the inverse 1.075. Sad to say I was a math major.


That's not a great VI for a sprint. You are losing speed when AP is not close to NP, especially in a flat race. Hilly race, well, that's a different story...
Last edited by: dtoce: Aug 18, 18 8:34
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Re: Race Wheels [dtoce] [ In reply to ]
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dtoce wrote:
DJRed wrote:


VI from last race was 0.93. IF was 0.91.

I'll work on the pic.

I thought VI had to be 1.0 or higher, mathematically speaking?

You're right. It was the inverse 1.075. Sad to say I was a math major.


That's not a great VI for a sprint. You are losing speed when AP is not close to NP, especially in a flat race. Hilly race, well, that's a different story...


I'm not very handsome either. That aside, this course had 56 feet of elevation, so I'm gonna say it was flat. Does this mean I need to ride more consistently during the race? More steady output as opposed to push/relax?

I generally just go based on effort and then peek at my speed every now and then. If it's below 21mph, I push harder (21mph is my usual average speed +/-. I never look at power during the race.

Said another way, my thought is it's a sprint. Just go, and every now and then kick yourself in the ass when the speed drops.
Last edited by: DJRed: Aug 18, 18 9:00
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
dtoce wrote:
DJRed wrote:
EnderWiggan wrote:
It’s 10 miles, do you really care about 10-20 secs in savings over current wheel set? Also at 135, I’m similar weight you run the risk of handling issues as you’ve never ridden that depth a front wheel. I say stick with what you know and ride on, the familiarity is worth at least 10 secs.


Thank you.

My bigger story is I started Tri on a road bike coming from a running background. Everyone said:
  1. Wait until you get a Tri Bike. You'll be flying. I bought a P2. No faster.
  2. Wait until you get a TT fit. You'll be awesome. I've had 3 in four years. No faster.
  3. Wait until you get an aero lid. You'll be amazing. Bought the LG P09. Nothing.


Now everyone is saying, "Dude, you need race wheels", so I thought I'd rent them and give it a try.

On the time savings, I usually finish top-10 and I can tell you everyone who beats me has a disc wheel.

Lastly, as I read the ST thread "Post your power, etc. from your last race", I am pushing the same power and riding 1-3 mph slower than those reporting races of similar distance and bodyweight.


How's your fit? Could be the loss from relatively poor body position is costing you speed at similar power.

I've had two retul-based fits from two different fitters in the last 18 months. Both say I look great, angles, etc. are awesome. I have no trouble in aero and staying there the entire ride.

Maybe the positions from the fit sessions are good biomechnically but poor aero / Speed wise? Obviously for optimal time trialling speed it is balancing out aerodynamics and power production/comfort correctly to give the fastest overall position. I wonder if some of the fit tools are just about comfort and maybe power production so are not truly optimal TT wise.
Getting a paired alphamantis (or what ever Garmin call it now) might find the speed gain you should get from moving to a tt/tri bike.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
dtoce wrote:
DJRed wrote:


VI from last race was 0.93. IF was 0.91.

I'll work on the pic.

I thought VI had to be 1.0 or higher, mathematically speaking?

You're right. It was the inverse 1.075. Sad to say I was a math major.


That's not a great VI for a sprint. You are losing speed when AP is not close to NP, especially in a flat race. Hilly race, well, that's a different story...


I'm not very handsome either. That aside, this course had 56 feet of elevation, so I'm gonna say it was flat. Does this mean I need to ride more consistently during the race? More steady output as opposed to push/relax?

I generally just go based on effort and then peek at my speed every now and then. If it's below 21mph, I push harder (21mph is my usual average speed +/-. I never look at power during the race.

Said another way, my thought is it's a sprint. Just go, and every now and then kick yourself in the ass when the speed drops.

Not necessarily. Depends on turns and how well you can draft



;-)

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Race Wheels [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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AND how many matches you burn...while trying to hold a consistent pace/effort/power that is approximately 100% of your FTP
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Re: Race Wheels [boing] [ In reply to ]
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boing wrote:
DJRed wrote:
dtoce wrote:
DJRed wrote:
EnderWiggan wrote:
It’s 10 miles, do you really care about 10-20 secs in savings over current wheel set? Also at 135, I’m similar weight you run the risk of handling issues as you’ve never ridden that depth a front wheel. I say stick with what you know and ride on, the familiarity is worth at least 10 secs.


Thank you.

My bigger story is I started Tri on a road bike coming from a running background. Everyone said:
  1. Wait until you get a Tri Bike. You'll be flying. I bought a P2. No faster.
  2. Wait until you get a TT fit. You'll be awesome. I've had 3 in four years. No faster.
  3. Wait until you get an aero lid. You'll be amazing. Bought the LG P09. Nothing.



Now everyone is saying, "Dude, you need race wheels", so I thought I'd rent them and give it a try.

On the time savings, I usually finish top-10 and I can tell you everyone who beats me has a disc wheel.

Lastly, as I read the ST thread "Post your power, etc. from your last race", I am pushing the same power and riding 1-3 mph slower than those reporting races of similar distance and bodyweight.


How's your fit? Could be the loss from relatively poor body position is costing you speed at similar power.


I've had two retul-based fits from two different fitters in the last 18 months. Both say I look great, angles, etc. are awesome. I have no trouble in aero and staying there the entire ride.


Maybe the positions from the fit sessions are good biomechnically but poor aero / Speed wise? Obviously for optimal time trialling speed it is balancing out aerodynamics and power production/comfort correctly to give the fastest overall position. I wonder if some of the fit tools are just about comfort and maybe power production so are not truly optimal TT wise.
Getting a paired alphamantis (or what ever Garmin call it now) might find the speed gain you should get from moving to a tt/tri bike.

So I've been to two fits this year. The first lowered me significantly in the front, raised my seat slightly, and tilted my aero bars upward. Seemed awesome enough. I saw all kinds of hip angles and cool stuff on video. I was very excited. Trained and raced like that for a few months and started developing right knee pain. I'm a lifelong runner who has never had any non-soft-tissue issues at all so I contacted another fitter.

Second fitter said knee pain could definitely be caused by too high of a saddle height. This fitter lowered my saddle and moved it back so now I sit less on the nose and more on the seat. Knee pain is indeed gone.

I asked both fitters if we should be measuring power in these different positions (as both were moving me around on adjustable bikes) and both said something to the effect of your performance improves most when you can hold the aero position longer. Longer aero means less drag, means faster bike speed, means better running legs. I asked both if there is merit to measuring power in the different positions and both said no. It's all about the optimal position that will engage the right muscles, and produce optimal power and you can tell that from the data. There's a suggested range of measurements and once you are in that range, it comes down to comfort as far as putting you on the high or low end of the acceptable range. Power is the outcome.

I've lamented before, but in Philadelphia the choice of fitters is slim (which is surprising given the large tri community). We basically have a choice between the eyeball guys (who aren't going to test power and rely on their experience to know that I'm in a powerful position) and the technology guys (who focus on angles and don't measure power, at least not for me).
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Not measuring power is crazy.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Hi
Honestly do you avg 30, 40, 50Km/hr on flat?
50K H3 frt...Hed Jet disk rear
40k Hed J60 frt...J90..Rr
30.....Being nice........save $1K on kit and invest in fitness, speed and power while on aero bike
Tom
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Re: Race Wheels [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
And all those improvements are independent of the improvement wheels will give you so even if you get the you will still be wondering, should I get race wheels to save another __ seconds...???
THIS.

Or at least if the OP has money for the ones that cost money.


http://www.jt10000.com/
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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It my aero test resulted in lowering the saddle (from previous bike fits) lower front end made little difference though. All very personal though so what works for one rider doesn't help another. The same is true with aero helmets.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Err.. if you only go faster when your speed drops below 21mph it makes a lot of sense why upgrades aren't making you faster on the bike..

They're just making it easier (so your run is faster).

Pace by power, and switch those gp4000s out for gptt's + latex.
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Re: Race Wheels [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Read this thread. Do it. Worked for me

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...6558249/?page=unread
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Re: Race Wheels [DanCT] [ In reply to ]
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Something is VERY wrong

To go from a road bike to a properly fitted tri bike and not a second faster makes no sense.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a good one...How much riding do you do?

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Race Wheels [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
Here's a good one...How much riding do you do?

3-4 days per week with sessions ranging from 60-90 minutes. Hard interval. Tempo-ish. Easy all mixed in.

Before anyone says I need to be riding 7 days for 2 hours per day minimm, I'm not talking about prepping for the TDF. I'm talking about seeing even minimal gains from a TT bike, an aero helmet, a professional fit, and race wheels.

I guess the argument is that I'd be even slower, but people who know me, people who train with me, and people who race with me all say, "You gotta get race wheels, that's what's holding you back."
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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well, go ahead and rent (not buy) the race wheels, 404/disc would be good to since you wont have any time to really get the feel for them.

but, they aren't going to make any MEASURABLE difference. they'll be saving you seconds, not minutes, so unless you ride this course several time under the same conditions with the same weather with the same power, you aren't going to know what the wheels did or didn't do for you.

i would recommend saving the cash, posting a few position pictures and letting the ST collective help you get faster.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a layman here. I was only gonna say anything here if you were riding twice per week. What I've learned in the past year of triathlon training is that I'm not going to gain much riding twice per week. I've self coached myself through this bullshit before breaking my clavicle so yeah. I'm changing up my entire outlook when I get a new bike and can start running again. 3 Days of cycling really being the minimum here.

My only suggestion her is if your rides are all solo go find a tri group ride that guns it.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Race Wheels [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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RBR wrote:
Something is VERY wrong

To go from a road bike to a properly fitted tri bike and not a second faster makes no sense.

I agree. I have been following the thread to try and figure out what this guy's problem really is - but its not jumped out yet. Road to tri bike with the set up he describes he should be a lot faster.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Race Wheels [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
RBR wrote:
Something is VERY wrong

To go from a road bike to a properly fitted tri bike and not a second faster makes no sense.


I agree. I have been following the thread to try and figure out what this guy's problem really is - but its not jumped out yet. Road to tri bike with the set up he describes he should be a lot faster.


It's not complicated it was pointed out above. OP is pacing to speed not power, RPE, or HR. No matter how good the fit, how fast the equipment, or how aero his gear if he sets his pace to speed he'll continue to be 0% faster.

Quote:
Err.. if you only go faster when your speed drops below 21mph it makes a lot of sense why upgrades aren't making you faster on the bike..

My YouTubes

Last edited by: LAI: Aug 20, 18 3:11
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
DJRed wrote:
Thinking about renting race wheels for an upcoming sprint.

Course is flat. 10 miles. Close to the beach so sometimes is windy.

I'm 135 pounds on a good day.

Current wheel depth is 38mm front 50mm back.

Looking at Zipp 404/Disc or 808/Disc configurations.

What would you do?


Work on your swim....


That ship has sailed. Swimming twice a week 2500 yards +/- and I'm stuck at 1:35/100yds racing a sprint. At least I enjoy swimming now, though. Since I can't swim faster than 1:30 in a 100 (from a push), I think 1:35/100 over 300-400 yards is the best I can expect.

I can, however, say I've watched every swimming video ever posted on YouTube, so I've got that going for me. My big dilemma now is that Chloe Sutton is hosting a clinic for pre-teens in my area. I'm trying to get the courage to sign up. I figure when I get there, I can play dumb and say I didn't know it was for kids. Hell, most of the pre-teens playing in the LLWS are both taller and heavier than me so what's the big deal?

Oh, and my 9-year-old daughter is now faster than me. I hate her.

Pretty positive that it is a well known fact that it is very hard to ever make many gains in the water if only swimming twice a week (I have the same issue BTW). So that ship hasn't necessarily sailed. Swim more often.
Oh, and buy the wheels. If nothing else your bike will look cooler and you won't be worrying about it anymore.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Where are you from? I'm sure someone can loan you a set for the weekend.
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Re: Race Wheels [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
earthling wrote:
RBR wrote:
Something is VERY wrong

To go from a road bike to a properly fitted tri bike and not a second faster makes no sense.


I agree. I have been following the thread to try and figure out what this guy's problem really is - but its not jumped out yet. Road to tri bike with the set up he describes he should be a lot faster.


It's not complicated it was pointed out above. OP is pacing to speed not power, RPE, or HR. No matter how good the fit, how fast the equipment, or how aero his gear if he sets his pace to speed he'll continue to be 0% faster.

Quote:
Err.. if you only go faster when your speed drops below 21mph it makes a lot of sense why upgrades aren't making you faster on the bike..

What the OP actually wrote was:

DJRed wrote:
I generally just go based on effort and then peek at my speed every now and then. If it's below 21mph, I push harder (21mph is my usual average speed +/-. I never look at power during the race.
Said another way, my thought is it's a sprint. Just go, and every now and then kick yourself in the ass when the speed drops.


I took that to mean the OP was working from RPE and pushing as hard as he could through the race, looking at the speed only served to spur him on if he thought it was too slow. That is different from pacing to speed - i.e. I pace my ride to 21 mph. In that case I would understand exactly what his problem was.

If he is pushing as hard as he can - then he should be faster on a TT bike pushing that hard than he is on a road bike pushing that hard. The fact he looks at his speed to ensure he thinks he is going fast enough should not make a big difference.

Maybe pacing using power would smooth out his effort and improve his time. I guess the OP should give it a go and let us know what happens.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Race Wheels [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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Just rent the wheels, use at your upcoming race and go from there. Sounds like you won't be satisfied until you experience firsthand what'll happen (not a knock against you) so go for it. At least you'll have some clarity either way and can hopefully cross this off your list of things to focus on.

Edited: Forgot to note, am assuming the cost of renting is not an issue for you.
Last edited by: bryguy: Aug 20, 18 9:57
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
I'm 135 pounds on a good day.

You don't have a big enough engine. You have spent time, money and thought and your marginal gains are small because you don't have a big engine. While that is of some benefit on the run, your size is of little to no benefit on the bike where big engines get carried by the bike.

It's really going to be hard for you to benefit from the technology if you don't have the power. Work on your power.

Getting some good or bad news right before a race would probably impact your race more than any single thing mentioned so far.

Thank you for your post because it's more real world than most of what I read in terms of "if you buy this then you'll get this".

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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