It’s 10 miles, do you really care about 10-20 secs in savings over current wheel set? Also at 135, I’m similar weight you run the risk of handling issues as you’ve never ridden that depth a front wheel. I say stick with what you know and ride on, the familiarity is worth at least 10 secs.

Thank you.

My bigger story is I started Tri on a road bike coming from a running background. Everyone said:

1. Wait until you get a Tri Bike. You'll be flying. I bought a P2. No faster.
2. Wait until you get a TT fit. You'll be awesome. I've had 3 in four years. No faster.
3. Wait until you get an aero lid. You'll be amazing. Bought the LG P09. Nothing.

Now everyone is saying, "Dude, you need race wheels", so I thought I'd rent them and give it a try.

On the time savings, I usually finish top-10 and I can tell you everyone who beats me has a disc wheel.

Lastly, as I read the ST thread "Post your power, etc. from your last race", I am pushing the same power and riding 1-3 mph slower than those reporting races of similar distance and bodyweight.

How's your fit? Could be the loss from relatively poor body position is costing you speed at similar power.

1. Wait until you get a Tri Bike. You'll be flying. I bought a P2. No faster.
2. Wait until you get a TT fit. You'll be awesome. I've had 3 in four years. No faster.
3. Wait until you get an aero lid. You'll be amazing. Bought the LG P09. Nothing.

Now everyone is saying, "Dude, you need race wheels", so I thought I'd rent them and give it a try.

On the time savings, I usually finish top-10 and I can tell you everyone who beats me has a disc wheel.

Lastly, as I read the ST thread "Post your power, etc. from your last race", I am pushing the same power and riding 1-3 mph slower than those reporting races of similar distance and bodyweight.

If that 10-20 seconds (and the money you paid for it) makes a difference to you thand n go for it; just know how to use extenders etc. I made that mistake the first and only time I rented a wheelset and ended up with a flat tire when I got to T1!

Hard to describe. I wouldn't say I'm looking to spend money to get 10-20 seconds. Of course, if it's more aero, I'll theoretically have more for the run, which is my strength. Still, even if it's 30-45 seconds total between the bike and run, I'm not simply looking to buy the time. Consider this, though:

• I finished 5th in my last race. Was 8 seconds behind 4th (who beat me by 2:10 on the bike) and 32 seconds behind 3rd. Both had a disc.
• I finished 13th in the race before that. Lost AG by 3 seconds. Was 1:40 behind 6th place. I was beaten on the bike by 1:00, 1:30, 1:30, 3:00, 1:00, and 3:30 by the guys in 6th - 12th. I outran all but two of them.

I guess the thread has gone a little awry from my original request from "What should I try" to "Is it worth it" for me?

After engaging here, I guess my question is really both. Given nothing else seems to make me faster, why should I expect wheels to? I'm nowhere near a pro. I'm not going to Kona. But, I train hard, I am competitive, and love to race so I hate the thought that I'm racing and giving away time due to equipment. The only thing left for me to try is wheels.

How can we possibly answer “is it worth it to you” if you can’t even make that determination? We have given you all the info to make that decision.

Do you want us to vote yes/no it is/isn’t worth it to you? We can do that I suppose.

Is the only thing left to try wheels?

Your return on investment is very low. The difference between 404/808 from 38/50mm is marginal. You originally asked 'what would you do?'
I would not change my wheel. I'd put a disc cover on the back for a cheaper option (that can be used again in future races, if desired) to equate the benefits of a full disc and look for other ways to pick up speed/time.

More aero clothing, tires, tubes, cables on the bike, aero helmet...These could help, if not yet done.


What was the VI on the ride? Perhaps you rode it imperfectly with power surges rather than more consistently. (*Although my sprint has gotten awfully close to 100% of my FTP, I made 0.99 IF last race) And, do you know if the others who had faster speeds at similar power profiles had better VI's or not? And are the PM's even comparable?

I'd have to believe that there are aero losses in those comparisons, or differences in the PM's.


You have not shown a picture or described your setup, just asked about the change in wheels. Trivial and expensive gain=not worth it to me.

Considering what you have written in the thread I would go disc with a 404. Putting an 808 in there on a windy day could see you riding slower if you are fighting it, and is unlikely to gain you much over a 404 in calmer conditions. Maybe a few second at best. Check tyres and pressures - if we are talking seconds good tyres with low RR and correct pressures is essential. Are you loading your frame with 'stuff'? If so get rid of it for a sprint - chance a puncture or keep spares to the absolute basics and don't hang it in the wind. I would also check the bearings of the rented wheels before you stick them in your bike - don't get anything too wide if your frame will not accept them.

I would also be tempted to check things like bottom bracket and brakes for issues - just to be sure you are not loosing power through your drive train. Sounds like you could be going faster with your current set up but just not quite go there yet?

Good luck.

This was awesome. Thanks.

VI from last race was 0.93. IF was 0.91.

I'll work on the pic.

Thinking about renting race wheels for an upcoming sprint.

Course is flat. 10 miles. Close to the beach so sometimes is windy.

I'm 135 pounds on a good day.

Current wheel depth is 38mm front 50mm back.

Looking at Zipp 404/Disc or 808/Disc configurations.

What would you do?

I thought VI had to be 1.0 or higher, mathematically speaking?

Work on your swim....

I've gained over 2mph average bike race speed, by leg strength training in the gym. Something to consider, if you don't already. I was also frustrated at throwing $$$ at equipment for very little improvement. I'm also an AG racer, and top 10 overall at local races.

VI from last race was 0.93. IF was 0.91.

I'll work on the pic.

I thought VI had to be 1.0 or higher, mathematically speaking?

You're right. It was the inverse 1.075. Sad to say I was a math major.

That's not a great VI for a sprint. You are losing speed when AP is not close to NP, especially in a flat race. Hilly race, well, that's a different story...

I've had two retul-based fits from two different fitters in the last 18 months. Both say I look great, angles, etc. are awesome. I have no trouble in aero and staying there the entire ride.

I'm not very handsome either. That aside, this course had 56 feet of elevation, so I'm gonna say it was flat. Does this mean I need to ride more consistently during the race? More steady output as opposed to push/relax?

I generally just go based on effort and then peek at my speed every now and then. If it's below 21mph, I push harder (21mph is my usual average speed +/-. I never look at power during the race.

Said another way, my thought is it's a sprint. Just go, and every now and then kick yourself in the ass when the speed drops.

Maybe the positions from the fit sessions are good biomechnically but poor aero / Speed wise? Obviously for optimal time trialling speed it is balancing out aerodynamics and power production/comfort correctly to give the fastest overall position. I wonder if some of the fit tools are just about comfort and maybe power production so are not truly optimal TT wise.
Getting a paired alphamantis (or what ever Garmin call it now) might find the speed gain you should get from moving to a tt/tri bike.

And all those improvements are independent of the improvement wheels will give you so even if you get the you will still be wondering, should I get race wheels to save another __ seconds...???

Here's a good one...How much riding do you do?

Something is VERY wrong

To go from a road bike to a properly fitted tri bike and not a second faster makes no sense.

I agree. I have been following the thread to try and figure out what this guy's problem really is - but its not jumped out yet. Road to tri bike with the set up he describes he should be a lot faster.

Err.. if you only go faster when your speed drops below 21mph it makes a lot of sense why upgrades aren't making you faster on the bike..

That ship has sailed. Swimming twice a week 2500 yards +/- and I'm stuck at 1:35/100yds racing a sprint. At least I enjoy swimming now, though. Since I can't swim faster than 1:30 in a 100 (from a push), I think 1:35/100 over 300-400 yards is the best I can expect.

I can, however, say I've watched every swimming video ever posted on YouTube, so I've got that going for me. My big dilemma now is that Chloe Sutton is hosting a clinic for pre-teens in my area. I'm trying to get the courage to sign up. I figure when I get there, I can play dumb and say I didn't know it was for kids. Hell, most of the pre-teens playing in the LLWS are both taller and heavier than me so what's the big deal?

Oh, and my 9-year-old daughter is now faster than me. I hate her.

It's not complicated it was pointed out above. OP is pacing to speed not power, RPE, or HR. No matter how good the fit, how fast the equipment, or how aero his gear if he sets his pace to speed he'll continue to be 0% faster.

I generally just go based on effort and then peek at my speed every now and then. If it's below 21mph, I push harder (21mph is my usual average speed +/-. I never look at power during the race.
Said another way, my thought is it's a sprint. Just go, and every now and then kick yourself in the ass when the speed drops.

I'm 135 pounds on a good day.

Thinking about renting race wheels for an upcoming sprint.

Course is flat. 10 miles. Close to the beach so sometimes is windy.

I'm 135 pounds on a good day.

Current wheel depth is 38mm front 50mm back.

Looking at Zipp 404/Disc or 808/Disc configurations.

What would you do?

Sorry, I came in late, so some of this may have been covered

- over a 10 mile race you are highly unlikely to see any tangible difference in speed/time over the wheels you currently have. There is a good possibility you could be slower due to handling, as was previously mentioned

Here are some things to consider that may not have been mentioned (all of these assume your position is optimum)

- Drive train friction- this can be a very big factor, especially for a smaller, less total wattage rider. The difference between a dirty chain and a clean chain with a good Lube can be 15 watts or more. That can easily be 10% or more of available power. Main sure your drive chain is super clean, than pick up one of the many 5 watt or less lubricants as noted by Friction Facts, or more recently ceramic speed. This will save you money, increase your drive train component life AND make you faster :-) My Lube of choice is Lilly Lube for its ultra low friction properties, ease of application and low cost. The overwhelming choice of ST nerds is wax.
- tires and tubes- your choice here, for a wheel set, and gain you or lose you another 15 watts +/-. Without any doubt the best tube choice is latex, they are actually easy to install if you know how to do it correctly- pm if you want details, and a nightmare to install if you don’t know what you are doing. For tires go to http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com and pick the flavor you like!

Those are by far the 2 biggest performance considerations. In regard to wheels, with little or no wind, or dead head or tail wind, wheels make very little difference. The more wind and bigger the wind angle the more you benefit from race wheels, assuming you know how to handle the bike with them on.

One last big issue with renting wheels is your brake pads. You will likely be getting carbon rims, and if you do not have the correct brake pads, which you probably don’t, it can be dangerous. I saw a guy crash out from top 10 late in an Ironman because his rims overheated due to wrong brake pads on rented wheels. Don’t do that!

Clean your chain, get good race tires and latex tubes, and have fun!

Sorry, I came in late, so some of this may have been covered

- over a 10 mile race you are highly unlikely to see any tangible difference in speed/time over the wheels you currently have. There is a good possibility you could be slower due to handling, as was previously mentioned

Here are some things to consider that may not have been mentioned (all of these assume your position is optimum)

- Drive train friction- this can be a very big factor, especially for a smaller, less total wattage rider. The difference between a dirty chain and a clean chain with a good Lube can be 15 watts or more. That can easily be 10% or more of available power. Main sure your drive chain is super clean, than pick up one of the many 5 watt or less lubricants as noted by Friction Facts, or more recently ceramic speed. This will save you money, increase your drive train component life AND make you faster :-) My Lube of choice is Lilly Lube for its ultra low friction properties, ease of application and low cost. The overwhelming choice of ST nerds is wax.
- tires and tubes- your choice here, for a wheel set, and gain you or lose you another 15 watts +/-. Without any doubt the best tube choice is latex, they are actually easy to install if you know how to do it correctly- pm if you want details, and a nightmare to install if you don’t know what you are doing. For tires go to http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com and pick the flavor you like!

Those are by far the 2 biggest performance considerations. In regard to wheels, with little or no wind, or dead head or tail wind, wheels make very little difference. The more wind and bigger the wind angle the more you benefit from race wheels, assuming you know how to handle the bike with them on.

One last big issue with renting wheels is your brake pads. You will likely be getting carbon rims, and if you do not have the correct brake pads, which you probably don’t, it can be dangerous. I saw a guy crash out from top 10 late in an Ironman because his rims overheated due to wrong brake pads on rented wheels. Don’t do that!

Clean your chain, get good race tires and latex tubes, and have fun!

What the OP actually wrote was:



I took that to mean the OP was working from RPE and pushing as hard as he could through the race, looking at the speed only served to spur him on if he thought it was too slow. That is different from pacing to speed - i.e. I pace my ride to 21 mph. In that case I would understand exactly what his problem was.

If he is pushing as hard as he can - then he should be faster on a TT bike pushing that hard than he is on a road bike pushing that hard. The fact he looks at his speed to ensure he thinks he is going fast enough should not make a big difference.

Maybe pacing using power would smooth out his effort and improve his time. I guess the OP should give it a go and let us know what happens.

You don't have a big enough engine. You have spent time, money and thought and your marginal gains are small because you don't have a big engine. While that is of some benefit on the run, your size is of little to no benefit on the bike where big engines get carried by the bike.

It's really going to be hard for you to benefit from the technology if you don't have the power. Work on your power.

Getting some good or bad news right before a race would probably impact your race more than any single thing mentioned so far.

Thank you for your post because it's more real world than most of what I read in terms of "if you buy this then you'll get this".

You've got me pegged. If I had a dollar for every 200lb guy who blew past me on the bike and then I passed on the run...

Do I get more power by:

1. Lifting
2. Plyo's, lunges, squats
3. Riding big power in short intervals
4. Riding medium power for long intervals
5. All of the above
6. Anything else?

Finally, everyone is good with 100psi? 135lb rider. Clinchers. Residential road surfaces. Should be dry.

like almost everything, it depends on actual tire width mounted on your rims, not just the stated width. in a generic sense, 100psi is probably high, but not doing too much harm either, but it totally depends on your tires.

i run 80psi front, 85 psi rear. and i weight more than you, like 25% more than you.

General suggestion (based on 35+ years of racing): For a sprint, ride the bike portion like it is the only thing you are doing! Get your breathing under control after the swim, and then go all out. Don't save anything for the run (until the last 100-200 meters of the bike, when you back off a bit to let your legs get a teeny bit of rest). Your legs are going to feel horrible at the start of the run....just let then warm up for the first 1/4 mile of the run, get your breathing back under control (breathe from your belly) and then ramp your pace up to your run race pace. Do not be surprised if your legs feel a bit heavier than usual (due to the bike effort); you will still be fast if you are a runner.
I'm about your size (140 lbs) and I've done a LOT of races of all distances. If you want to ride like the 200 pound dudes, you have to go "all in" on the bike. In a sprint, you should be going so hard on the bike that you want to quit....the bike is just too short in a sprint to actually blow you up on the run (assuming you are a good runner). PS-do NOT try this on a 70.3 or longer race, where going to hard on the bike can negatively impact your run in a significant manner.

dont waste your money on "race wheels", If those first 3 things didnt get you faster, something is wrong, and race wheels wont help it either. wheels are the last marginal gain piece of a puzzle. there is something wrong with your fit if you went from a roadie to a TT and gained no speed for the same power. got a picture?

That sounds like nothing I've ever done before.

I usually start the run off around my open 5K pace and drop from there. I've never tried to crawl out of T2 and get my running legs back.

However, challenge accepted. To build more on your experience, suppose my open 5K is 6:20 pace, my "tri" 5K pace is around 6:40, and I can run somewhat comfortably at 7:00 pace, are you suggesting I run that warm-up coming out of T2 at 7ish? 7:30ish? Slower? Faster?

Lots of quotes, My apologies;





This started with talking about race wheels, and now run strategy.

Okay to sum this up.

• There is no other room for improvement
• You usually finish in the top 10 with a 5k run of 20:40
• You are going to rent a new wheel-set to go faster

Whatever money you are trying to spend on new wheels to save 20s on the bike you can shoot that my way. I will shave 3 minutes off your run.




laughingfarmer I Love this run strategy, however running negative splits is a lot harder said than done.