Yeah. The Crusades. The Black Death. The Inquisition. Krakatoa. The Holocaust. Genocide in Africa. Yup, things sure have changed since then.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

> It doesn't matter how they coincide or if the coincide.

Not in the example you gave.

> My behavior, to some extent effects your life.

I agree, and mine yours, of course.

> I decide to drink and drive you can bet it effects your sport regardless of whether or not you think it is sinful.

No doubt. And while I'm not a believer, I'll agree that it's "bad" (yeah, sinful). But me having sex with my wife before we were married - "sinful" by the judgment of many (like her parents for example). But how did it effect you, or the sport? Especially, how did it negatively effect anybody, other than making her parents grouchy for a few years? "Sin" it was, and to boot, we're not believers. We're definitely going to somebody's Hell.

> Don't read anything else into my post.

I don't think I am. And certainly not passing any judgement! Just trying to figure it all out, maybe state my case a little bit.

-Zo

One of the common beliefs in Christianity concerns judgement at the time of, or immediately after death. My understanding is the everyone is judged, not just Christians. I make room for the possibilty of God revealing his glory at the time of your death and saying "Ok, you've got one more chance. Are you in or out."

The Bible and all Christian teaching are a handbook, but at the end of the day, I don't want a God that I can understand.

Without having read any of the other responses, here's how I think of it, Tom. Suppose I had some information that would guarrantee you a podium finish in any tri you chose to enter. Using this information would cost you nothing, costs me nothing to share it, and it would work every time. Also, it would not effect my place in the race in any way. Now, what kind of selfish bastard would I be if I kept that information to myself?

I believe the faith that I hold makes one a guaranteed winner at life's finish line. I would imagine that is why most people feel compelled to share their religion with others.

> what kind of selfish bastard would I be if I kept that information to myself?

A cheating selfish bastard! ;)

-Zo

I'm just agreeing with David. Just as it's incorrect to take one verse out of context, it's wrong (i.e. inaccurate) to look at one book/part of the Bible without relating it to the rest. Overall, the Bible is a huge message of Love.

For God so loved ....

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It bothers me to see so many people say Christianity is about money and power. Who is this based on? The huge minority of Christian leaders that exploit others and are false witnesses? This really bothers me. It basing everyone and everything on the actions of very few. It's stereotyping, which is always wrong.

I do admit there are some factions of Christianity that are borderline making up their own rules, adding books to the Bible that other scholars felt did not fit, etc. When I say Christianity ... I am referring to the belief as described in The Gospels, and when I refer to the church I am talking of the group of believers (as described i Acts, etc).

As others (and myself) have recommended ... please use $10 to check out the book, The Case for Christ. If you've ever wanted to put the Gospels and Jesus on trial and view the evidence ... this is your chance. The experts do all the busy work.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

So you can't answer the question?

If you don't understand your God, why do you think that, for instance, the Pope understands God?

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My thoughts (and questions) - not necessarily to you vitus, you're just the last post so I stress this isn't aimed at you! ;-)

My biggest question (at least today.. and with respect to this thread), Is my understanding of many religions (not all I understand) is that God is a loving and forgiving God (else why would he forgive you if you ask for forgiveness?), BUUUUT, in the infinitely long time-span of eternity we take up a teeny, tiny, infinitesimally small fraction of that time yet are expected to make a decision that will effect our immortal soul for the next bazillion years, with no hope of redemption or reconciliation outside of that tiny window of opportunity (whoops, didn't mean for that huge long run-on sentence!). Now, God made us imperfect, we have free-will, thereby implying there is the chance to make the imperfect decision. If He KNOWS we are imperfect beings, doesn't it seem awfully punitive for Him to punish us (His creations) for all eternity after only giving us the briefest instant of time to "see the light"? What about the children who die, the teenager who dies in a car wreck, the person who dies accidentally before having the opportunity to fully develop a spiritual conscience? They get banished to hell FOREVER?!?! They had 0.000000000001% of all eternity to make a pretty large decision and don't get another shot? I don't want to believe in the God that would do that.

Next belief/statement: Maybe "hell" is simply the absence of God? If Heaven is being united with God for all eternity, then why wouldn't hell be the exact opposite of that? If that is the case, you could argue there are an awful lot of people in "hell" right now wandering around the planet, which would also of course mean they still have an opportunity to get into Heaven. Maybe it's like a big merry-go-round that you get off and on several times before you get the right set of events to occur to your spirit that allow you entry to the big top?

I'll never understand the "my-way or hell for you" attitude. Not so loving, for a bunch of religions based around a pretty loving guy. I'm really trying to stay out of naming a religion during this thing, I was raised in a certain faith, have studied several more of them, and seen others play out with friends and acquaintences; but one anecdote I'll never forget was how at the age of 7 my little sister came home crying and terrified that she was going to "burn in hell" because that was what the rather fundamentalist (insert religion here) neighbor girl told her. How's that for loving and accepting? WHile I am tolerant of,and actually pretty accepting of, just about all religions/faiths, I have ZERO tolerance for crazed fundamentalists of any faith.

Like Vitus, I also believe in the supernatural and the spirit and what-not, but I've just gravitated from, what I believe to be, the hypocritical doctrines of many organized religions. Historically there just seems to be an awful lot of "do as I say not as I do" and like someone else threw out there, religion is big business, REALLY big business.

Lastly, I believe in God, and am pretty sure that I believe in most the stuff that goes along with the christianity based religions. Never will I believe that your actions don't matter though. I think I remember somewhere in the Bible (old T or new T, not sure) That there is directive to do good works. Jesus led by example, why would your actions not matter? Religion/Faith shouldn't be a "get-out-of-jail-free" card that by accepting Jesus, Wham! the slate is clean. "Not by faith alone..." I'm 99.9% sure that one is in there.

Now my last "lastly". Someone said that some faith or another's God is the only one to never actually be a human person or something like that, and that's why they are different. I think you're wrong on that one. Many. many polytheistic religions have gods/demi-gods that never walked the planet, and you need to look no further than the religions of the Native Americans to find the Great Spirit, who guides actions, but never walked the planet as a "normal guy".

I think this is the "nicest" religion thread I've read on here...maybe ever! Must be because spring is here and we all finally get to ride outside (stick my tongue out at all Californians here).

PEACE!!

Actually, I think I did answer the question. Yes, Christianity and Judaism believe in the same God. The difference is the belief in Jesus Christ.

I understand God as well as I can. I believe the Pope understands God as well as he can (by the way, I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't necessarily believe the Pope's got the God market cornered). What I mean when I say that I don't want a God that I can understand is that the universe is an infinitely amazing, complex, beautiful creation and I don't believe someone as ignorant as myself could have created it. Besides, the Bible makes very clear that our earthly life is not all there is so there must be some surprises on the other side.

I didn't realize those were in the New Testament!? Your quote was taken a tad bit out of context, don't you think? That part of the discussion was about love being in the Bible and the difference between the New and OLd Testament. Unfortunately, I think that is the way most religious type discussions go - one side starts taking bits and pieces and tries to make an over arching argument. Like most things, it's not quite that easy - either for or against.

Best wishes,

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Sorry, my mistake. You did answer that question. I had my replies confused. Am I forgiven?

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Of course you're forgiven. All you have to do is ask.

You may remember a long time ago the columninst Allison wrote about her decision to get a divorce. I wish her well and told her as much. However, every couple that decides to get a divorce (don't go down the abuse road that's not what we are talking about) makes it that much easier for me to do the same, therefore is an attack on my marriage.

You premarital sex may have affected others into the same decision, granted it probably affected their decision to a small degree. Therefore, your decision to choose a lesser path possibly led others into negative results that a sinful life can bring. For example, while I don't have the studies in front of me, I think it is fairly well established that couples who cohabitated before marriage are far more likely to divorce, more likely to have children outside of marriage, etc. We all know the negative effects on single parent children even if we are not supposed to talk about it.

It would be very easy to take the above statements farther than I intend them. I don't like the idea of legislating morality or in any way trying to force these issues. For me, it is more of a subject that causes great introspection and examination of my own life, attitudes, words and actions. Before I was a Christian I could have written your exact reponse. Indeed even for a long time after I became a Christian I could have written your exact response. The uncomfortable fact is that everything we do, say even down to our attitudes affects other people for good or ill regardless of your religous status.

   

Here's what was said:

"That, to me is one of the very points of the New Testament - with Christ, everything changed. Everything else was just a prelude. It was the set up - the very reason why Christ came (and was needed). To me this makes very good sense. Folks, in criticizing religion look at all the things God did or let happen. They are basically all in the old testament. With Christ, all things changed."

I took "all the things God did or let happen" and "all things changed" to mean *all*, not just in the New Testament. Only the first phrase of the first sentence refers to the NT; everything else is in reference to Christ or "all things".

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I can't give you an exact age at which time God expects us to be able to understand or acknowledge who he is. But everyone, at some point in their short lifespan will have the opportunity to accept or deny Christ. That is part of the fulfillment of the second coming that everyone in the world be given the opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision. This is why their are missionaries all over the world fulfiling the great commission.

Secondly, Jesus Christ is the only God who has died for our sins and risen.

Also, accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is the only way to enter his kingdom. When we do that we are to strive to live a life that reflects Christ, meaning we should want to do good works- going back again to that 'love' thing. But doing good works does not get us into heaven.

I agree with you, this has been a good post with good questions, and hopefully some good answers.

Interesting that you refer to the Bible (both New and Old Testament) as a whole. Does that make the Old Testament only half, thereby making Jews "incomplete", or "lesser"? It's a slippery slope to start to descend.

If you were to table the subject with a Mormon, they might contend that the Bible has three books. According to that logic, that would make Christians (non-Mormons) "lesser" as well, as they don't believe in what Mormons see as the "whole" Bible.

I guess the Book of Mormon is to Christians as the New Testament is to Jews. Interesting and enlightening, but not ncessarily the word of G-D.

Do you not have your own moral compass that you can follow to determine the right and wrong things for your own life? I think this is where a lot of people (like Quakers) who believe that people should be allowed to live their own lives fail to understand those who, for example, oppose gay marriage or homosexual behavior.

Well, aren't we judgmental.

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Tom,

My answer may be a little off topic but I think at the end I will be able to make it stick.

A couple of years ago a friend of mine and I were talking about parenting at luch. My wife and I had already made the decision that parenting was not for us. My friend could not understand how we would make a decision like that and went on trying to convince me of the fulfillment, pure joy, and unconditional love that rearing children brings to one's life. I went on to try to explain to him that for some that is absolutely the right thing to do, but in our case we felt that it was not right for us. And until we knew in our hearts and souls that rearing children was right for us we would not take on that responsibility. He alternately stated, as matter of factly as possible, that it is right for everyone and there is no way to achieve that certainty until you have children.

My point here is that when you believe something so fervently that you want everyone to experience the same "joy" that you are experiencing. And there is no way anyone can fully understand or appreciate that "joy" without experiencing it the same way you do.

Hope that was not too far off topic.

Pete

IRT your question about the Pope--I think if you asked the man Karol Wojtyla (better known as Pope John Paul II) whether he "understood" God, he would tell you that God is so vast, has existed for so long, and has so much perfect knowledge about everything, that no man, Pope or not, can ever hope to understand him. As Pope, he doesn't get a direct pipeline to God, he must struggle, pray, read, and pray some more to try to understand God and do his will. There are thousands of people within the Church doing the same thing they have been doing for thousands of years--scouring through everything written or said, about historical or scientific knowledge, and praying, praying, praying--to help themselves and others know and understand God--and they probably haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Don't look to natural or manmade disasters to disprove the existence of God--(He never promised us a life on earth free of pain, sadness or illness)--instead, look to good to prove His existence.

> Well, aren't we judgmental.

LOL. Indeed. But as a non-believer for the greater part of my life, I'm pretty accustomed to being judged... ;-)

There is one quote from the bible that is my absolute favorite. But I'd be repeating myself.

-Zo

Riding without a helmet jeapordizes our sport and my business, is selfish and ignorant.

People riding without helmets resulted in the following damages to our cycling community in 2003:

1. Forced us to drop sponsorship of a local club, that is an otherwise excellent club, becasue we cannot guarantee our insurance coverage on rides where everyone is not wearing a helmet.

2. Forced us to pull down a real-time, live Internet "ride board" that listed all local group rides.

3. Forced us to cancel all organized group rides.

People who don;t wear a helmet affect everyone, not just themselves.

Wasn't this about religion? :)



I would agree with that but so does a lot of other decisions people make effect us. People that drink and drive. People that break other laws. People that get divorced at a drop of the hat ( not picking on anyone), that leave kids to single mothers that don't have time to raise their own kids. these are things that really affect us. You can on and on about peoples decisions and how they effect a lot of people. I for one believe my religion helps me to stay away from alot of these pitfalls in life. Therefore I am going to preach to whoever will listen. Yes, I also believe my religion to be true, but its the fruits that it brings me that I will sing about. I am a firm believer in freedom of choice and free agency. I also believe its my right and duty to stand up for what I believe to be true.

Bob in Vegas

In fact, we're promised quite the opposite. Jesus promised that while on earth we would have great trouble, but that earth was not all there is.

Of course I have my own moral compass, and I don't mean to say that anyone is responsible for someone else's mistakes. However, you cannot deny social effects. Take it to a level a little less sensitive, the point and the principle is the same. Why does Gordo Byrn surround himself with other hard working, upbeat pros? Doesn't he have his own training principles to guide him? Why doesn't he live with a couple out of shape, lazy, but enteraining guys? In the same way I am coming to realize the benefit to surrounding myself with friends who are doing their best to live examined lives who do not want to compromise their principles.

The proper place of moral legislation is definitely a tough subject and is not cut and dried. I read a thought provoking editorial the other day stating that the civil rights movement (MLK in particular) was primarily a religous movement and that without that religous, moral component civil rights legislation would have been a very long time coming (as if it didn't take long enough). At the same time, the vast majority of us don't want the govt embedded in moral legislation.

> Well, aren't we judgmental.
Yes, but only because he brought it up as a topic on this particular subject. Would you rather have me hypocritical and pretend that I think it is OK?

> Would you rather have me hypocritical and pretend that I think it is OK?

Of course not. Your posts have all been quite thoughtful and thought-provoking.

But I'm still going to Hell.

-Zo

At least you'll have a lot of company. ;)