Tom, that's a great question. I just wish they wouldn't because it'll never change my beliefs as a confirmed agnostic.

"many Christians have told me that actions don't ultimately matter, just faith, and asking for help from Mr. J.C. So who is right? You or them (the other Chrisitians)?"

I think the point is that you can't earn your way into heaven. The only way to heaven is through belief in Christ and repentance for your sins. No amount of good deeds will get you there. That being said, if you have accepted Christ into your life, to the extent humanly possible, your behaviour is expected to model that of Christ.

Please educate me. Another question that has been bugging me.

You say "It comes back to love." And "The Biblical message is simple ... if you want to spend eternity in heaven, you need to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and repent." But then you say "So, out of love for you and people in general, Christians try to lead others to Christ."

So, do Christians help others because they want to avoid hell, OR do they help others because they are filled with love?

Which is it? Because those are two very different motivations. One is fear of nasty punishment and the other is love. Quite different, eh?

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I edited (for brevity) my original post. Christians help people because we try and emulate Christ's teachings. Works don't get you into heaven. Salvation does.

Christianity that teaches "good deeds to earn heaven points" don't get that from the Bible. I have been spending an incredible amount of time trying to change my life to be the example I want it to be. It's not a good feeling realizing I've been living a hypocrite's life for quite a few years. I wonder how many of my actions have actually lured people away from hrist rather than towards him. I am trying tochange that.

It's really rather simple ... whenever you have questions on how to live or what to do ... the lesson is right there in the book.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I believe that on a base, fundamental level it comes down to people being passionate about what they believe in. Farther up in the hierarchy it comes down to money, but if we are talking about the people that knock on your door, it is a passion for what they believe in.

it takes passion to go door to door attempting to pass on their religion. Think about the arguments we have on here about bike geometry, position and aerodynamics. These people are as passionate about their religion as we are about going faster, whether in the water, on a bike or running.

We can argue about the Catholic religion and bring up some of these quacks that require you to tithe over 50% of your income to the church and then they re-distribute the wealth, but the fundamental thing that drives these people is a passion for their religion and their way of life.

Remember the look on someone's face when you explain how much time you spend each week training and pursuing your passion in life. It is the same for very religious people that work at spreading their religion.

I stayed away from Christianity for a long time because my perception was that it was a religon of "don't" ruled by fear of hell.

One of the biggest things that convinced me of the truth of Christianity is when I came to realize that there really isn't a do/don't list for salvation. Simply believe in Him. If you believe in Him, then your behavior will fall into line on its own without a need for exhaustive lists of restrictions. In fact, it is my belief that if you still are looking for that list of restricted or required actions then you don't really understand what JC was talking about.

So you're saying it affects you if I ride without a helmet, but your (ir)religious beliefs don't affect me? Think again.

Do you think America would be any different if we were all Muslims? What if America was a Catholic country? Your beliefs have a huge effect on my life, because they help shape the very society I live in, and raise my children in. Don't kid yourself that you can be an atheist, or a polytheist, or a fundamentalist, without influencing my life. This idea we have of private faith is a sham.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Good reply from vitus. Couldn't we rephrase what you said this way:

Riding without a helmet jeapordizes our sport and my business, is selfish and ignorant.

Living a sinful life jeopardizes our sport, my business, so many other things, is selfish and ignorant.


People riding without helmets resulted in the following damages to our cycling community in 2003:

People living a sinful life resulted in the following damages to our community: ... a very, very long list

> Your beliefs have a huge effect on my life, because they help shape the very society I live in, and raise my children in.

Well then, sounds like we're all even (ah - equal!?). And if that ain't the core idea that makes this society (Western society, America, blah, blah, blah) work like it does, then I don't know what that idea is.

-Zo

> Living a sinful life jeopardizes our sport, my business, so many other things, is selfish and ignorant.

Well now that's a troublesome point of view. I wonder how well our definitions of 'sinful' might coincide?

"Let he who is without sin..."

Right. Guess I'm selfish and ignorant!

-Zo

If you found the secret to peace in life and eternal security in death, why keep it secret?

Two stories:

A Sergeant is on patrol in southeastern Europe with his long range recon team. They are using an indigenous personnel as a guide and interpreter. They find a wounded boy who is a Muslim. As they prepare a routine, hourly situation report an argument of some sort erupts. It escalates. Suddenly the indigenous guide, who is Christian, levels his assualt rifle at the chest of the wounded boy (who is lying on the ground) and empties it into his chest. It looks a like the boy is being consumed by a power tool- his chest disinetegrates and his head cames off, rolling casually to the side. For a moment there is shock. The patrol leader asks the indigenous guide "Why did you do that?" The guide replies "He was a Muslim."

The young sergeant draws his sidearm and, behind his back, drops the magazine and clears a round from the chamber. Then he presses the barrel of the handgun to the Christian guide's head and says, "Funny, I'm a Muslim too." and pulls the trigger on an empty chamber. The patrol leader tells the guide, "If you do that again we will kill you and put your home on the NATO target list for known terrorist locations."

From then on, the guide behaves himself.

A friend of mine attempted suicide. She called me when she did and I took her to the emergency room. She was in bad shape. Her boyfriend fucked her over big time. After spending the night with her in the psych ward (big fun) I go to leave in the morning and encounter two customers of mine- a pair of fellas who are members of The Church of the Later Day Saints, I believe they refer to themselves as Mormons. I say "Hi" to them as I am leaving the hosptial. They have always been good customers and appear to spend a lot of time on their bicycles in the course of their religious duties.

"What brings you to the hospital?" They ask me. I tell them. They ask how my friend is. They ask if there is anything else they can do. I tell them, "Well, maybe you can look in on her..." I leave and then start to worry, "Oh no, I wonder if those guys will try to convert her or something- she doesn't need that right now" (or maybe she did...).

Anyway. She gets out of the hospital, makes a complete recovery and asks me, "Who were your friends with the suits on that you sent up to visit me? They were very nice and I appreciated them being there. They stayed two hours" The two men treated her with kindness, respect and sympathy. They didnt once mention their beliefs. They only left a bible on her table when they left, without even mentioning it.

The next time I saw them in my store I told them "I want to thank you for your kindness toward my friend, I really appreciate it. You guys are very fine people. I hope you will keep my friend in your prayers- it seems to help."

Two situations. Two different outcomes. Interesting.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Respectfully, I'll disagree with your assertion about the bible representing love. Perhaps the New Tesatment does (I'm not well-versed enough on the matter to comment), but the Old Testament is not about "love". It's about old-school respect and fear of the almighty G-d, because of the power he wields. There's repeated instances of G-d testing the belief of his people:

-Look at Genesis 22, where he forces Abraham to offer up his only son as a sacrifice, and only relents at the last minute (when Abraham has the knife in his hands, and is ready to do the deed).

-Exodus, where his people suffer through generations of slavery, for reasons that can only be considered "fuzzy".

-The Book of Job.

I'll take this chance to mention I am a non-practicing Jew; 11 years of Religious School, 4 years of Hebrew School, and I walked away with more questions and delusions about the religion. The one good thing I can say definitively is that it doesn't actively "recruit"; "Jewish Missionary" is an oxymoron.

I'm open minded to all religions (with exception of Scientologists; for some reason I can't stand them), and it can make for some interesting debates. But at the end of the day, I always remember that at Jonestown, they gave the women and children the Kool-Aid first.

So, is the "God" of Judaism not the same "God" of Christianity?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

great post...you beat me to it!

Disclaimer: I am a "Traditional" Catholic. So a lot of you folks would consider me a kook. It's OK, I can take it. Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam! ;)

The important thing to grasp, and that I think non-believers have a hard time understanding, is that I really believe this stuff. I believe in the angels, I believe the Devil exists and really does actively work to get your (and my) soul condemned to Hell, I believe in sin and its effects, I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, and so on. I believe that after this life, we are all going to face judgement, and some of us will get to Heaven, and some of us will go to Hell. I don't think of the Church as some social club, or a big support group. I believe in the supernatural, and I think the supernatural has laws every bit as immutable as the physical laws. And when those laws are violated, the consequences are just as real.

Why do I invest energy trying to convince people my religion is the right way? A lot of reasons. For one thing, I believe I have an obligation- God wants people to be saved, and that isn't likely if they're following a false religion, or no religion. If I did nothing to help them, I'd be remiss in my duty. For another, other people's beliefs do affect me, and the environment I live in. It's harder for me to be good in a bad society than a good one. And ultimately, it's a matter of charity, and friendship. If I'm really your friend, I should do everything I can to help you get to Heaven, and avoid Hell.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Tom,

Your "two stories" are good, and the topic is a good one.

I think i've discussed with you and others where I stand. Think about whether a truly religious person - I mean a believer and follower - would use religion as either a shield or a sword? How about where someone else is shown harn, instead of love, including loving forgiveness? And, does a real believer show and do harm to others? Unfortuately, some give religion a bad name, and in the very name of religion at that.

Personally, I just try to do good (I do hate it when "bad david" comes out) and discuss religion with others when the topic comes up naturally.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Same God, just a different view. I don't know enough about Judaism to speak intelligently, but I believe they don't recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God, just a prophet. Christianity teaches that when Jesus Christ came to earth, the Mosaic law established in the Old Testament was forgotten.

> I'll disagree with your assertion about the bible representing love
That assertion was never there; as far as I can tell reviewing my post I never said anything that could be construed that way.

On the ligher side, one thing you have to say about the old testament, God has got style. I mean, if I were a diety I would just be frying people left and right but God puts some real style into it. Who here would have thought of a pillar of salt? Locust I can understand, but frogs and flies? If it were up to me, Jonah would have been a burned spot on the ground.

That, to me is one of the very points of the New Testament - with Christ, everything changed. Everything else was just a prelude. It was the set up - the very reason why Christ came (and was needed). To me this makes very good sense. Folks, in criticizing religion look at all the things God did or let happen. They are basically all in the old testament. With Christ, all things changed.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

It doesn't matter how they coincide or if the coincide. My behavior, to some extent effects your life. If I decide to drink and drive you can bet it effects your sport regardless of whether or not you think it is sinful. Don't read anything else into my post.

Something I've always wondered about, and perhaps you, as a true believer, can provide some insight. What follows is an extreme example, so bear with me.

Josef Stalin, on his deathbed, repents and discovers Christ. Mahatma Ghandi dies a Hindu. Who goes to Heaven, who goes to Hell, or elsewhere? In light of that, just what is our purpose in *this* life?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Why do some members of a religion (any religion) invest energy in trying to convince other people, not necessarily of their own religion, that their religion is good or "the best" or "the way"?

Kind of the same question Job had after his friends showed up. As with Job's friends they are often less then helpful and may be driven more by fear than love.

The apostle Paul, prior to his conversion, was the type of person you are referring to. People turned up dead or in prision from disagreeing with him. Years later, after his conversion, he wrote the way of love (1 Corithians 13). Paul begins the primacy of the way of love with these words, "Now I will you show you the most excellent way." I think Jesus' blesses the latter and does not have much toleration for the former.

That hits it on the nose. Is it not so much more important to share information that deals with eternity than to share info about how to race farther or faster.

We as Christians don't spread the gospel to be better than anyone else or because we get points with God. Works don't cut it. We do it out of Love and,as mentioned earlier we are comanded to. We strongly believe in what we have and want others to have this same thing. When you have great information you want to share it, in fact you can't wait to share it with others.

I also recommend the book, The case for Christ. The author was an atheist who set out to to prove that there was no God, but, he ends up finding God instead.