The problem with your analogy of going from 5:30 to 5 min mile is that the example you are using is already an "aerobic example". See Klehner's example of Chris Boardman in the 4000m pursuit. If you're good at the 4000m pursuit, you're gonna be good at the hour record and if your mile time is good, making it better will improve your 10K. When you bring weights into the equation it's more like saying. "My mile time is 5:30 minutes and my 100m time is 12 seconds". I've been working on my 100m for 3 years and got it down to 11 flat. Guess what, your mile time just went from 5:30 to 5:29 (or so).

That's why doing weights in short bursts that last 30 seconds at best won't really do much for endurance performance, just like all out sprinting likely won't do much , other than at the end of an ITU world cup sprint finish where you might need to wind it up for the final 200m to get a gold vs silver medal. That's what the anti weight training crowd has been arguing and I have no qualms with that.

There are many good reasons to do weights/resistance training wrt to personal motivation, easy access to fitness (body weight routines....heck I've done them for an hour straight at the back of a 14 hour flight), being able to deal with day to day life's responsibilities without getting hurt (I am sure there are many here who have thrown their backs out taking a wiggling 30 lbs 18 month old kid out of a car seat, or helping a friend move furniture, or moving your bike case around the airport etc etc). Personally that's why I do weights. They make me feel great, and I like that I have functional strength for stuff outside SBR. Since I am not a pro, getting through other aspects of life without getting hurt and arriving at the start line of triathlon ready to rip is a good thing. I'll stick to this formula as I've gotten through 26 seasons of triathlon reasonably well and on the balance, things are working well for a guy in 45-49.

Good to see you are controlling all variables. Wouldn't want to make two drastic changes in the way that you trained so that you would have no way of actually evaluating whether it was one or both things that made you faster. But it's okay; I'll give you a hint - keep going to the track. It wasn't "more" importantly, it was the ONLY thing of importance, at least among the two changes you mentioned. The slow - but steady - gains in aerobic fitness from general training should never be overlooked.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

When Crowie outsprinted Lieto at the end of Boise 70.3 last year was it aerobic conditioning that was Lieto's limiting factor in those last 200 meters?

One view: Some people have it at the end and some don't. Lance Armstrong can't out-sprint Mark Cavendish either - no matter what. The great Paul Tergat, was almost always out-sprinted at the end by Haile G!

Another: Yes, you could say that Leito was aerobically deficient at the end because he burned all his aerobic matches earlier on and Crowie did not, so when it came time to sprint, Craig had more legs left.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think there's another aspect to it as well. Weight training for endurance athletes is kind of like leg shaving. People do it for a certain look, then hunt around for other performance-based justifications after the fact.

Sure, but unless you have the time/funding/ability to do controlled studies, you can't control for all variables. I think we probably agree on that. Even if I was to only change the track work, my gains could have been based on better sleep, diet, lower stress over that period, climate, mental attitude allowing me to work harder, etc. I wasn't suggesting it was a scientific study with a control group, Im sure I wouldve gotten faster no matter what I did, again I'm still making gains basically regardless of what I do.

I think most people waste their time in the gym, so I'm not an advocate for every triathlete to go to 24 hour fitness and get on a nautilus machine. But its worked for me. I beat a lot of people who have done this for a long time, but there are plenty of people who are faster who have never touched a weight.

Sense to who? How does increasing efficiency of a pathway that lasts ~ 5-10 seconds at most benefit aerobic pathways? Unless you're always in a dead heat for podium in your AG, increased anaerobic efficiency does basically nothing for aerobic efficiency increases.


See Paulo's response for your first sentence. As for the rest, the highlighted portions are the only thing that are relevant. And yes, your overall fitness is increasing, but the power lifting isn't doing anything for your SBR performance. It's increasing your fitness for powerlifting.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Hello smugfit and All,

In support of your arguments for resistance training .............

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11533574

CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that rotator muscle strength imbalance may play an important role in shoulder injuries in high-level volleyball players.

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The question posed in the main is ............... does doing ONLY SBR provide the maxiumum 'consistent' race performance?

And corallary question might be ............ does doing ONLY SBR create muscle imbalances that lead to injury?

It might be worthwhile to consider injury prevention from muscle imbalance as a positive indicator for some specific dry land resistance training in addition to SBR before the injury occurs.

An interesting question for the ST poll would be "have you been injured this year?" and "what injury?" and "off training for how long?" especially considering the many .... "hello doctor - can you help me with ___________ (fill in the blank)?" posts on ST.

It might come down to time spent preventing injury increases your time for a race - but you race more consistently, and of course varies with individuals.

Sort of like using gatorskins vs veloflex tires to race in -- is the loss of speed worth the increased odds of not flatting.

Cheers,

Neal

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Actually, it's a significant correction. The fact that you think it's a slight correction is the problem.


Great, so where in your plan is the evaluation of said imbalance and the insurance that your plan will actually fix it instead of making it worse? In other words, how do you assess that imbalance? How do you make sure you aren't f'ing them up even more. Many - most, if not all - core conditioning programs can easily exacerbate imbalances. Haphazard "core conditioning" is likely to make that imbalance even worse, NOT correct it. That's the problem. Core conditioning doesn't inherently correct anything, despite people's great faith that it does. Appropriate exercises can correct things, but I must have missed where you actually gave an in depth explanation of how you make sure the exercises are appropriate.


Yes, because it was the 20.9 KILOmeters that came beforehand that made the difference.


It's not only "not always" ideal, it's NEVER ideal.


I know that you think that. The problem is that you only think it, you don't actually know it, because there isn't evidence to support it.


Pilates is actually not about core. Stupid Pilates instructors will tell you about core, but the original book by Joe Pilates is called "Contrology," which tells you all you need to know. A core with appropriate endurance is important to pilates, but only someone that doesn't actually understand what pilates actually is would tell you it's all about core.


Unfortunately, that understanding seems to be quite poor. You don't need a lab. You just need access to the work from people who do have labs. You have a computer, clearly.


Great. We've been over this a lot. You think. "In god we trust. All others bring data." Split your n=72 into two groups, one of which does zero core conditioning, and then we might have something worth discussing. Your n=72 is really n=1, because you have no control group. You have as much of a "lab" as you need. What lack is methodology.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Your argument is incorrect. Your example of the mile is also not applicable, as a mile run is predominantly aerobic, not anaerobic. Would you argue that maximizing your 200m dash time would make it easier to run a 10km at a faster pace? I'm hoping you wouldn't.

As I've repeated ad nauseum, Chris Boardman was unsurpassed in the 4000m pursuit, yet his maximum short effort performance ("sprinting") was pretty lame by pro cyclist standards. His aerobic capacity was excellent, though, and his FTP was an astounding percentage of his max power.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Sorry Neal, the subject line of the study gives away the relevance: "We conclude that rotator muscle strength imbalance."

It's not support for resistance training in general. It's support for very specific resistance training to correct a very specifically identified muscular imbalance. That's absolutely NOT what is being advocated by people like smugfit are advocating.

What you have provided is support for EXACTLY what I have been advocating all along - when you reach a limit in performance, you need to identify - VERY SPECIFICALLY - what that limit is. It may be something you can correct with resistance training - if it's a rotator cuff imbalance (note, no mention of core anywhere) - then yes, resistance exercises for the rotator cuff will likely help.

Of course, keep in mind that volleyball has almost nothing to do with triathlon. The peak force requirements for even a recretaional volleyball player's rotator cuff dwarf that of a high level swimmer.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Hi, my name is Sue. I'm an IM podium finisher and I lift weights / do core work in the off season.

I find they work wonders for me in terms of cycling strength for my pencil neck geek legs and keeping my disc from blowing out - yet again. As we age, I am finding that SBR is not enough. My best seasons / races have come off a winter of weights and skate skiing. My body type does not naturally build muscle no matter what I do. In fact, the more I lift, the skinnier I get.

I had 2 girlfriends hit the weights with me last winter and they say they are faster and stronger with better endurance on the bike than the previous season. Neither had ever lifted before. I do not advocate heavy body building type lifting, nor lifting during the race season.

But you know, IT WORKS FOR ME AND I'M GONNA KEEP DOING IT REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANYONE SAYS. That said, our little burg has many Hawaii qualifiers, and I don't know a single one who does NOT lift weights in the off season.

Unless you're always in a dead heat for podium in your AG

John,

As per usual on here it's always the exceptional situation and example that is first pointed out.

People go on and on like every AG podium place is sorted out by 10ths of seconds!

In 20+ years of triathlon racing I think that I had exactly 3 occurrences in countless races where it came down to the final 20 meters of the race and, a true sprint finish for a win or top spot.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Riiiiiiiight over you head..... He never said anything about a scientific study. You added weights and track work and got faster.

That doesn't mean weights equal faster. If you would have taken out the weights and just done track work you would have got as fast if not faster by avoiding the time lifting weights. His point is not that you need to do a study but the fact that if you change two things at once you can't logically say x helped when it could be y and in this case y helped and x did nothing.

For instance let's say I had a stock p4 with training wheels and avged 25mph on 250 watts, which I thought was to slow. so i sold it and bought a p3 with race wheels and then avg 25.5 mph on 250 watts with the same position. I can conclude a) the p3 and the race wheels helped increase my speed, b) the p3 is faster than the p4 or C) the race wheels make up for the difference in speed from the p4. Obviously a and b are wrong which leaves c as the logical explaination. In other words your speed work makes up for the waste of time lifting causing you to go faster. However if you would have stuck with 2-3 more hours a week training(p4) instead of lifting (the p3) you would would have have ended up with a p4 with race wheels instead of your current p3 with race wheels.

Sue,

Of the 9 folks locally who already qual'd for Kona (some accepted, some passed) , the majority do resistance training, some year round. Most of them however are 40+ and are carrying a lifetime worth of injuries and imbalances that constantly have to be managed. Sample size however is small, and as many will point out, there is no proof that this is making them faster. I do think that it helps them get to the start line of daily SBR training "more intact" than many of their competitors on a more consistent basis. My personal observation is that this allows these masters athletes to do more SBR. This may very well be the case of your Boise group. It's also why I started roller skiing again in the middle of August, because my race season is going from Jan to Nov this year and I need to balance off my body doing some different stuff to withstand another IM build that will start shortly. We also need to do resistance training for the massive 30 second sprint at the start of every ski race to get in the "group" (or your race may be over)....but that is a different sport.

Steve, you're correct about those sprint finishes.....in 26 years, I have had three. The ITU guys run 9.8K pretty darn fast but they have to work their sprint too. In the history of IM racing, I only recall 2 sprint finishes...the Ken Glah vs Pauli Kiuru at IM New Zealand photo finish and the Peter Reid vs Chris Leigh sprint finish at IM Oz.

Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/...appeal-to-authority/

DD should have to do a shot every time someone posts to this thread.

In the Department of Redundancy Department...

When you or anyone else here has the base and the yards/miles as those on your list, hit the weights with the knowledge that you'll get that last .1% performance gain. Have you not understood anything that Jordan has written?

Following your lead of rhetorical questions, how is it that Michael Phelps became an Olympic and world champion and world record holder before he ever did any dry land training? Why is it that Lance Armstrong dropped all strength training in his comeback attempt?

And don't insult Jordan by including me in any list with him in it (except for maybe Ivy grads).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I think you need to re-take your philosophy class, son. Under your sophomoric interpretation of the appeal-to-authority fallacy, one should not heed the advice of their coach (who also espouses strength training, btw), the wisdom of their professor, or the counsel of their doctor because to do so will be demeaningly written off as an appeal to authority?

Reductio ad absurdum.

You're right. None of those people knows what their doing.

Wow, that's an EXHAUSTIVE list if ever I saw one...

By the way, Phelps is actually NOT a strength trainer. He does *some* core conditioning work with swiss balls and medicine balls, but he won 6 Olympic gold medals before he ever picked even touched something other than the water. But he's definitely NOT a "strength trainer." He can barely bench press 135. He's tried...

And you can add to the list of non-strength trainers guys like:

Bekele, you know, the guy who broke Geb's 10km world record.

Or maybe let's consider Sammy Wanjiru, the guy who won the Olympic marathon, beating the pants off Ryan Hall, who has said "I never do any strength training. You can get enough strength from running on cross-country-type courses." Huh, what an amazing concept.

Or maybe let's ask Paula Radcliffe, you know the woman who actually holds the marathon world record AHEAD of Deena Kastor. That's right - she's NOT a strength trainer.

Why don't you actually spend some time figuring out what elite athletes do NOT strength train. You might actually learn something...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Really they are strength trainers? How much and ryan hall bench 95lbs? You think mark allen can squat 300 lbs? They aren't STRENGTH training whether they call it that or not.

Why everyone keeps including phelps in a list of endurance athletes is beyond me? Yes we all agree Phelps should be in the weight room. Most of his events are all anaerobic. Or at least use a lot of that physiological system. In a marathon how long are you anaerobic again?

I can't believe I've read most of this, but even more amazing is that Rappstar has corrected most poor arguments, misuse of terms, and just plain stupid examples.

I applaud your effort sir - hopefully you've convinced SOME people to S-B-R more opposed to wasting their time in the gym (assuming these people are lifting because they believe it is making them faster in triathlons).

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If you want to turn this into a pointless semantic debate we can do that but we're going to lose the 3 people who are still interested in the topic.



Yeah, because this is a 4 minute post in a web forum, not a book on training methodology.



If you want to make that argument you could point to almost ANYTHING that came before that point that made the difference. If Lieto had been 3 seconds faster in T1 he'd have won. Clearly the limiter was his ability to transition quickly. :-)

Would you agree that if Lieto was able to run the last ~200 meters faster than Crowie did that he would have won? If you would agree to that seemingly obvious statement is it your contention that running a ~200 meter race (which is what that race became when Crowie pulled even) is entirely about aerobic conditioning?




I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one then.



Something else we're going to have to just disagree on I guess.



Well, actually since "Contrology" doesn't appear to be an actual English word all it tells us is that Joseph Pilates apparently didn't rely on a dictionary when he named his system. I don't really think that's "all" we need to know, is it?



O.K., we're back to debating semantics again. <eye roll> You're right, Pilates isn't ALL about core. Shall we argue about whether it's 72.5% about core or 61.3% about core?

Would you at least agree that the major tenets of pilates include posture and alignment and that in the course of improving your posture and alignment exercises are performed that strengthen the core?



I'll see if I can get half of them to agree not to do any "strength training" (whatever that happens to mean to them) in order to satisfy your requirement. Of course that won't really be a perfect control either since they're not identical twins starting at the exact same ability level.

And I suspect they'll laugh and decline but hey...that'll be fun too.

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Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)