That seems like a reasonable statement to me.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Nope. Despite being the guy who seems to continually bump this stupid thread, I feel compelled to reply again...

It should say, "Someone will get to that load max, and at that point in time, lifting *MIGHT* enable them to increase that load, thereby making them faster." It would depend entirely on what it is that is limiting them.

As an example, Michael Phelps might hit the absolute limit as to how fast he can swim. At that point, something like his reaction time (when the gun goes off vs. how fast he is off the blocks) could become a major factor in his races. He's already won races by a smaller margin than the difference in many top athletes' reaction times. In that case, perhaps strength training could help him with his speed off of the blocks, which could help his performance.

Or, to carry on with Phelps, the fastest that ANYONE goes when they swim is when they push off the wall. So - theoretically - Phelps might run into a point where he simply needs to push off the wall faster in order to get any faster. In that case as well, I can theoretically see strength training helping him.

Or, to reiterate my particular theoretical example of Kastor perhaps suffering from an imbalance in the endurance of one glute med vs. the other. In that case, *RESISTANCE* (NOT STRENGTH) training could be used to help correct that imbalance, which could ultimately lead to an ability to increase training load, which would make her faster.

But those are very specific, very targeted cases. That was my hesitation with writing those examples in the first place. I knew that someone would misinterpret them as meaning in general that "Strength training leading to being able to SBR more leading to getting faster" which is absolutely NOT what I am saying.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Ok, well maybe I am just having a hard time understanding what you're saying. Maybe I just ain't smart enough. I'll trust what Geb does though. Here's what Geb says on the matter (you may say he's doing what you are saying, I don't know as I didn't do the interview, but he does a boat load of strength work, and not just a canoe, a yachts worth)

http://www.ethiopianreview.com/articles/32874

"You do the mileage, do the strength training and then the speed work."

"In the early evening, I spend most of my time in the gym doing strength work."

"Then I will do some strength training. That is seven days a week, except for Sunday, when I only do the morning session."

His 2:03 marathon is evidence enough for me. He advocates strength training. My guess is you don't care to show me that he is only advocating resistance training in an effort to compensate for imbalances; but I don't think thats what he'd say. My guess is he'd be telling all of us to hit the gym "And he fits it all in around a nine-to-five desk job running his thriving business empire in Ethiopia, employing 600 workers."

So no more office job being an excuse, he kicks ass.

---

---

When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

I won't say that Dev is the master of the constantly changing argument tactic but he does regularly partake in it.

Love it when people have the 'nards to say what others are thinking...

And Dev, no I'm not a stalker as you previously claimed. I just happen to click on a number of posts and you happen to respond to many of them. I'd break anyone's stones, even my own, if I read the amount of confusing, misguided and incorrect statements you have made - particularly in the overly self assured manner that you have made them.

I will admit sheepishly that the time you caught me in your house dressed in your men's size small work suit writing "I Love You Dev" in pink lipstick on your bathroom mirror, now that was stalking. The judge, the prosecutor and I all agreed that I stepped over the line. I will not do that again (unless the voices get too loud that is).

Hugs,
SHB

I was in a local bike race last weekend. It was about 80k in length. I was in the main group for the full length of the event. Bike racing is interesting because you get a certain range in sizes competing at the higher end - and the 15 - 20 guys in this group were a good example of that - they ranged from skinny dorks like myself, to much larger guys bulging with muscles. Despite the differences we all managed to stay together despite a fairly hard pace from the get-go and some moderately hard climbs, all the way until the final field sprint at the end - which was actually won, on a slight up-hill sprint by the smallest and leanest guy in the group. However, it was interesting that in this small subject group, muscle size and shape seemed irrelevant in terms of giving everyone a chance to compete!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Cat 3?

You don't see as many of the bulging muscles guys in the 1-2's.

He never actually says in that interview what his "strength" training actually consists of. So I won't speculate. But I do love how you cherry pick the quote that says "In the early evening, I spend most of my time in the gym doing strength work." But then you conveniently leave out the very next sentence, which says, "But even if I am in the gym, I will still do 10k on the treadmill and another 10k on the bike."

Or, we can at look at your particular n=1 argument another way. Haile runs in Adidas shoes. Based off your logic, you should probably also run in Adidas if you want to run fast. Does that make sense? The actual inference that it's logical to make is that running in Adidas shoes does not appear to limit Haile's running. Of course, that would be supported by the fact that Adidas shoes have not won a statistically significant number of marathons in the past 10 years. So rather than looking at the one guy who does do strength training, why not look at the legions of other enormously successfully track and road racers who do not use strength training.

Then again, I can't believe (actually, I unfortunately can believe) that the act that he encourages "strength training" is "good enough for you," despite you having absolutely no idea what he's actually doing in the workouts that he describes as "strength training." Is he doing squats? Or bench press? Both? One legged squats or two? Parallel or box squats? How many reps? How many sets? Of course, I am sure that none of that would matter, right. Three sets of five rep bench press is strength training and so is five reps of 10 rep bulgarian squats, so they must have the exact same effect...

Furthermore, that assumes he is actually using the term in the appropriate physiological sense. In other words, that he's using the term strength specifically, as opposed to colloquially, as most people do, to actually mean something much more general. True strength training means that he is working to increase his strength - his peak force, aka "one rep max." My guess is that he actually doesn't give two shits about his actual strength. What is talking about is something that would probably more closely resemble balance or coordination exercises. But that's purely a guess. But again, that probably doesn't matter to you either.

Beyond that, there are numerous world class athletes who are tremendously successful in spite of things they do. Go ahead and eat like Michael Phelps - basically 100% refined carbohydrates - and let me know how that works out for you.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You know what I find interesting? When you look at the Tour de France or the Giro d'Italia, EVERYONE is a skinny dork. There are a couple dudes that, relatively speaking, are bulging with muscles. But they get dropped pretty damn fast when the road goes up, and usually they don't catch back on when the road goes back down.

So, yeah, if you want to be *a* cyclist, you can probably do it with a bunch of different body types. But if you actually want to be a good cyclist, it's pretty clear what your body type needs to be.

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. Look at Chris Solinsky. He's more than 10kg heavier than the next heaviest guy to break 27min for 10k. But he's the exception to the rule. Do you know why that phrase exists? Because there are in fact "rules" about what it takes to be successful. And, of course, it'd be pretty foolish to overlook the fact that Solinksy may have broken 27min, but he's over 1/2 a lap behind the WR time for the distance...

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Beyond that, there are numerous world class athletes who are tremendously successful in spite of things they do. Go ahead and eat like Michael Phelps - basically 100% refined carbohydrates - and let me know how that works out for you.

JR,

There is a dangerous phenomena here the forum to always be quick to point out the exceptions and not the general trends. Joe Bonness does three IM's in a month, so it must be OK for me and everyone else to do that as well! . . . and so on.

What people should really be doing is not looking at what one athlete does, but look generally at the routines and what the top 50 - 100 athletes are doing. That's where you will see the patterns and that's where you should draw good information from.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"If you want to say "doing weights is better than doing NOTHING," then fine, there's not gonna be any data to contradict that."

Hey Jordan,

You finally got it!!! And guess what, this board is largely populated by time limited age groupers not pro triathletes with a ton of time to maximize S-B-R training. My number 1 reason when I participate in any thread about training with OTHER AGE GROUPERS is to help them figure out how to manage time and get more training done in limited time slots. That's how I got 3 people 3 PB's at Ironman LP last month with one Kona slot out of that group off an average of 10 hours per week. Age groupers need to approach training from the constraints of their lives and then fit things around it....when we try to do the watered down Pro plan some other aspect of our life, beyond training is usually negatively impacted

Not many age groupers have that figured out. They squander time and complain they have no time to train. There is never "no time"...there are just "different priorities". But if they want to make training a priority, they'll find ways. Sometimes they may need some help being innovative with time and sometimes it may involve doing "whatever fitness" when they cannot access S-B-R....better than sitting on the couch.

Dev

Cat 3?

Mixed Cats - mostly strong Master's guys.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Dev I think you just contradicted what Rappstar has more than adequately explained in this thread. Limited time to train is a reason to NOT do weight training.

Doing less S/B/R is NOT 'maximizing available time'. 'Maximizing available time' is figuring out exactly how many hours a week you have to train and then splitting that time out amongst focused and smart swim, bike and run sessions.

Most of my races this year have been mixed 3/4 races - I've noticed the same thing - a big range of body types, from skinny climber looking guys to totally musclebound types.

Another thing I've noticed is that the musclebound guys ONLY win flat crits. The skinny guys win all types. And there are hardly any big guys in the 1/2's.

Hello Rappstar and All,

When I am injured, I am usually assigned some form of physical thearapy, often entailing some specific resistance training.

Are you doing any resistance training to recover from your accident?

=================

Wiki:

Physical therapy (also physiotherapy) is a health profession that assesses and provides treatment to individuals to develop, maintain and restore maximum movement and function throughout life. This includes providing treatment in circumstances where movement and function are threatened by aging, injury, disease or environmental factors.

===========================

When injured I cannot train some systems. Injury prevention is an important element of training to me - just like nutrition.

I am not assigned more swim, bike, or run for the injured system to get it healthy. Often just the opposite - asked to 'take it easy - until the injury heals or is mitigated.

You cannot play when you are injured - at least not as well as when you are healthy.

Rotator cuff injuries for example.

I believe rotator cuff exercises can help prevent shoulder injury from swimming and have read several articles to that effect, besides the doctors advice I have received for the problem.

I see some resistance training as helpful when injured, and also in the gray area (and difficult to prove area) of preventing an injury before it would occur.

For instance:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...es/instance/1839980/

This introductory resistance training program is designed to minimize injury risk, improve golf swing speed and the overall fitness of recreational golfers. This article aims to introduce to the Chiropractor the basic concepts sport specific resistance training, periodization models of resistance training and proposes a year round conditioning resistance training program specific to golf. The exercises have been chosen based on the best biomechanical evidence to minimize injury risk and on the research supporting the use of movement specific training adaptations. Upper body strength exercises are performed standing to develop both trunk and hip stabilizing musculature and the primary movement of the golf swing.

============================




I recall chatting with Arnold Palmer some years back, when he was in the sunset of his career, and asking him about what he did to train, if anything, for his golf matches.

He said he used the "Bullworker" regularly and if he missed a session his swing went to hell because of his degenerative back. http://www.thebullworker.com/

I think when you see enough n=1 annecdotal examples you begin to believe that there is value in dry land resistance training for endurance athletes, old ones anyway.

Cheers,

Neal

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Maybe you did not read what I have been saying. When you cannot access S-B-R, there are still fitness options using body weight that are better than sitting on the couch.

So you are willing to follow Geb's plan (in as little detail as is available) because he is a world class marathoner? Why not listen to Rappstar, who is a world class triathlete?

---

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

I know you don't care how well it (eating like Michael Phelps or anything else for that matter) works for me. My personal reasonings for weight training differ greatly from many others. I understand you are advocating what current research you say shows. I know you're an Ivy League engineer fellow and I may just be a midwestern university type guy and I understand that n=1 cases shouldn't be taken as "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" but I still think that we can look to the leaders of sport for training information.

Deena said this:
When I get up from a nap, then we’re off to gym for strength work, which we have emphasized greatly this year, getting in the weight room and doing drills, plyometrics, weight lifting, and core work. After that we go for a 4- to 6-mile run, and then we go home and refuel again, and get to bed early to prepare ourselves for the next day. So, the days are pretty monotonous and regimented. There isn’t much room to do errands and that [laughing], so you need a willing spouse or someone to help out. Being a professional runner is a full-time job.
http://www.nyrr.org/...009/kastor040708.asp

Maybe that fits in with what you are saying, I have no idea. I don't exactly understand what you are advocating. If in 50 years scientific research proved that strength training showed a positive reaction on endurance performance would you then advocate it?

---

---

When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

You bet I am. My right knee took a wicked blow in the accident, and the docs were convinced I'd fractured it. Fortunately, I did not, but there was significant soft tissue damage. And I also snapped my pelvis pretty badly out of whack, and had a large edema in my groin, likely from seat getting slammed into the soft tissue there. And, of course, the never damage to my left brachial plexus. So, you bet I'm doing resistance training to work through the issues associated with that. But I also worked with someone to come up with a very specific plan to actually target those specific problems - and the couple of unfortunate problems that arose from me trying to do too much too soon before I had corrected the initial root problems.

I have not - and would never - say that resistance training doesn't play a huge role in rehabilitation.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Ahh, understood.

I'm lucky enough that I can basically always access s/b/r. Honestly I have a hard time imagining how someone would push for optimal triathlon results (such as a kona slot) when they were 'lifestyle-limited' enough that they couldn't get out for a run or ride the trainer.

But then why say "situps." I have one of these - I got it when I was rowing. How about 2x15min on this instead? http://www.xiser.com/

Or 2x15min with a jump rope?

Or any other very portable purely endurance/aerobic based exercise?

Why did you choose situps? That's what I've got a problem with. If it is whatever fitness then just say "whatever fitness," as you eventually did. The only reason that I "finally got it," is because you finally admitted that it's simply doing something. It's not because stronger or improved non-specific abdominal endurance will improve your 5k. It's because being active for 30min vs. 0min is going to help your 5k. It was your lack of specificity that prevented you from making a coherent point. There are numerous examples of things you can do instead of situps (or resistance-type exercises) that will pay MUCH bigger dividends because they are developing general aerobic fitness, which offers significantly better crossover than resistance training. So I have no problem with recommending doing something instead of nothing. But I do have a problem if situps are the first sort of thing you'd choose, instead of any of the better options.

Of course, if it's situps or nothing, then yes, do situps. But I have a very hard time figuring out when situps would be the ONLY option...

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

What I continue to have problems with is that you keep posting all these articles that basically give ZERO detail on what the training actually consists of. What sort of plyometrics is Deena doing? What sort of strength training? There are plenty of athletes - even VERY good ones - who don't actually understand that the term "strength training" actually means. And that's largely the fault of trainers & coaches, who also often don't know what it means. Just because it involves a gym, it doesn't mean it's "strength" training. Not only do you not have any idea what sort of strength training Deena is doing, you don't even have any idea if she's actually doing the sort of work that technically would be considered strength training in the first place. In other words, what Deena describes is basically totally meaningless as a guide to anyone who wants to understand how she trains. You know essentially nothing about what her workouts are. Is that 4-6mile run fast? Slow? Fartlek? Again, no idea.

That's basically an anecdotal summary in vague terms. It's not training information. It'd be the equivalent of a chef telling you that the way to make foie gras was to get some goose liver, grind it up, and cook it. Does that actually tell you ANYTHING? No.

I don't need 50yrs of research. I just need some research. And your smattering of ultra-vague anecdotes is not that.

Let's try this another way. You've read that Deena and Geb both advocate strength training. So why don't you tell me what exactly you plan to do in the gym as a result of what you've read?

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I understand that they don't say exactly what they are doing (Geb doesn't for obvious reasons). Don't disagree there. I'm not claiming their interviews substitute for scientific research. I tri and run for fun, not for competitive reasons, so what they do or don't do in the gym doesn't concern me. Like I said I'd rather go more for the muscle bulk and just do tris and runs for fun. I am not trying to be offensive in anyway, I know you are a smart guy, but if you read my posts I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm not advocating one side versus another, I am just saying that Geb and Deena (along with others) say they do strength training. Needless to say I don't have access to their coaches and what training they do in the gym on a day to day basis, I'm just a regular guy, I can't call them up on the phone; but when I see a debate such as this that has two sides (with experienced athletes on both) I like to understand more about it, for my own edification not to implement their training regimen. What are the difference between all of the terms? Strength training vs resistance training vs weight training? I'll admit, I don't know.

---

---

When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

If you don't know, then how are you arguing anything?

The only way traditional weight training, i.e. pick a heavy weight up and put it down, will help endurance sports is if you are doing things like sets of 3x500.

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I just picked situps because one of the posters said situps won't help your running. I gave an example of how it would help your running more than the other option of sitting on the couch. There was no "final admission"...it was right in the first post when I compared it to sitting on the couch (nothing at all). Jumping rope, or doing a portable row machine would no doubt be better. My main point is doing something over nothing. If that was not clear in the first post, hopefully after around 40 you're finally getting it. Just remember this for when you have a 6 month old and a 2.5 year old in the house :-). If you are an XC skier, 2x15 minute situps over the couch sitting option is actually reasonably good time usage :-).

Strength - in the precise sense of the word - means the ability to exert force on an a physical object using muscles (thanks Wikipedia). Strength training is designed to increase strength (duh), which means it is designed to increase to force you can exert on a physical object. Force is NOT time dependent. Strength is basically a "one shot deal." How strong you are means how much can you squat, how high can you jump, how far can you throw, etc. Essentially, it is designed to maximize the peak force of muscle contraction, anaerobic endurance, etc. If you are a high jumper, shot putter, pitcher, etc. then strength is VERY important to you.

Weight training simply means training that is done with weights - free-weights, things like kettlebells, or even machines (which could include hydraulics, though I wouldn't). Really, I'd restrict it to things like freeweights and kettlebells - "heavy shit," to put it bluntly. Holding a 45lb plate over your head for an hour is weight training, but it's not strength training. Make sense?

Resistance training is a slightly more general term that I use to expand on weight training to also include things like cabled-machines but also elastic bands. Technically, those things aren't weights - especially elastic bands - so it's incorrect to call them weight training. Basically, anything that puts a force across your muscle is "resistance" training, so even pedaling a bike is resistance training, but generally, it's a more specific way to talk about what most people do in a gym without mis-using the word "strength." When I go to the gym for rehab, I am doing resistance exercises - with weights, cables, and bands. I am NOT doing strength training.

Squat up and down with one leg - holding no weights. Just your body weight. If you can do this, you have enough strength to pedal a bicycle at a very high level. More than enough in fact. So you don't actually need any more. It doesn't do anything for you. What you need is more POWER, specifically over the duration of time that is relevant to my event. Power is the ability to generate force *over time.* If I race the 4km pursuit on the track, I don't care about how much force - peak force - I can generate. I care about how much force I can generate over a period of 4-5 minutes. And those two numbers are not related. In other words, even the most unfit person generally has more than enough strength to generate the force required to be a world class pursuiter. What they lack is the endurance to generate the power that is required to be a world class pursuiter. And strength and endurance do not correlate.

This is the importance of terminology and specificity. So, yeah, Geb and Deena and others say they do strength training. But that is basically so vague as to be meaningless. And that's assuming that they are even using it in the correct manner, which is a big assumption, even for athletes as successful as they are.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp