However, you're assuming that the muscles used for situps are never used for running. If you can do 15 minutes worth of situps, it will likely be beneficial for your 5K. 2x15min during the next time you watch the evening news instead of sitting on the couch :-). That should not take away from S-B-R training, its just concurrent activity with TV watching.

I'm not John (Mott), but Phelps, Lochte, and all the other world class non-endurance athletes you mention can benefit from strength training (funny that Phelps was world class before he did any gym work, but I digress). Nobody disputes that. There can even be a successful argument for world class endurance runners benefitting from strength training as a supplement to their already insane running mileage. What can't be argued successfully is that the 99.99% of the rest of us endurance athletes who haven't maxed out their S/B/R time can benefit from strength training more than they'd benefit from using that time for S/B/R.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yes they are in the gym because they are limited by their strength at their level. Most of us are at a much lower level that only requires that we SBR.

With the exception of Deena Kastor, I wouldn't consider the others you mentioned endurance athletes.

jaretj

Well said!

When someone asks me why I do triathlon (... and "weight lifting"), my response is usually something like this: "...basically, I just want to look good naked!"
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If you're an AG'er with a job/family/social life/sleep requirements, weight training (and getting to/from the gym to do weight training) simply doesn't have the ROI if it comes at the expense of quality sport specific workouts, particularly if you have ambitious "triathlon goals". However, for the rest of us who don't derive our self-worth from our finish times -- tongue-(partially)-in-cheek-here --, I say knock yourself out if you want to do some "strength work".

Bottom line: determine YOUR goals (... and your primary goals probably should NOT be triathlon related,) and schedule your LIFE accordingly.

Thats my $0.02

Think about how many people lean forward while running and seem to lurch forward with every stride.

bad coordination? I do that, and I have plenty of strength to keep myself up.

Huh? What?

The part in bold was what I quoted from someone else. The part below that is what I wrote and I think agrees with what you are saying.

Did you miss your coffee this morning or something? Geez.

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Portside Athletics Blog

I don't necessarily disagree Ken, but I haven't seen any great arguments on the opposite side either. I agree that for a lot of athletes their time would be better utilized with more SBR time but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from strength training. Lets say athlete A chooses more SBR time and can cut 30 min of a HIM time and athlete B chooses resitance training and ends up cutting only 15 minutes off. I personally (as tri isn't my life devotional) would rather choose B as it confers more benefits in many of my lifes other occupations. I like the bulk a little more, I move a lot so lifting and moving stuff with less chance for injury is nice, I still try and make it out to the track a bit so more muscle definitely helps there.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

Most of the guys in the anti weight training crowd here are taking this sport waaaaaaaay to seriously for a bunch of guys who don't get paid to "perform" at this sport. Does anyone really care if you went 2:09 vs 2:11. I can bet that 99.9999995% of spouses could care less about the difference.

99% of spouses secretly likely prefer if you go 10:01 and miss that Kona slot to the guy who just went 9:59 at Placid....this way it's not another 4 months of the IM grind for the family (and the grind is usually worse for them than for the athlete). On the other hand, they might prefer that you get the slot so that you're not a miserable aerobically withered stick sitting in front of the TV watching Kona videos trying to get your motivation up for next year, too weak to carry the garbage to the curb!

First you cite all these world class athletes who spend time in the gym as some sort of rationale for strength training. Now you cite lifestyle benefits. I'm guessing the former don't do it for the latter benefits.

Pick a story and stick to it.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Ken, I hate to break it to you, but you can't control how people on the internet think. He may have provided his reasoning over 2 steps rather than a single posting. Maybe on the weight training threads, you need to post a FAQ and set of rules up front for all of us to obey. Not exactly sure why you guys get so tied up and bent out of joint about others chosing to do resistance training. We're all big boys and have good reasoning and motivation for our actions, as misguided as some may think them to be.

X100-Thank you for stating that better than I could have.

And Ken, No I won't pick a story. I think the world class guys can do it for their reasons (not the same as mine) and I can do it for my own reasons, both perfectly acceptable.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

Bullshit. This thread, like every single other thread on the subject, follows the exact same trajectory, starting with the purported benefits of strength training for endurance athletes, moving on to "core strength" necessity, then hitting on injury prevention, and ending up with appeals to authority ("Mark Allen says so!"), lifestyle rationale and "do what works for you." As each is shot down with facts, the argument moves on until it reaches the final, unassailable level.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I've been lifting daily in preparation for Kona. No one really cares if I go 10:29, 11:29, 12:31, but at least I'll be presentable at the beach :-) :-) :-). I certainly feel a lot better and productive after some resistance training than after long aerobic workouts. I actually have a friend who is a surgeon who won't do anything aerobic before he has to go to work, but he'll do resistance training because he finds it helps his concentration and focus afterwards, rather then leaving him feeling spent and in blood sugar daze as he gets after endurance training.

Speaking of resistance training and track and field, check out this video of Lolo Jones....33 clap pushups in 30 seconds...of course her event only last 12.5 seconds, but it's pretty cool and should get you inspired in a different way than Chrissie Wellington might inspire you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuPq897Hsdk

I think that's a pretty good statement. If you like doing it that's a terrific reason to keep doing it.

jaretj

"If you can do 15 minutes worth of situps, it will likely be beneficial for your 5K. 2x15min during the next time you watch the evening news instead of sitting on the couch :-). That should not take away from S-B-R training, its just concurrent activity with TV watching."

Umm, the only time I have to watch TV right now is while I'm taking my post-workout snacks, which I consider essential to recovery. (Okay, I did watch some of the Tour, but mostly from the trainer!) Anyway, 2 x 15 min. sounds like an awful lot of situps.

That said, I've noticed that Hal Higdon includes strength training in his 5K and 10K training plans, and I'm thinking about trying out one of those plans sometime (although my more immediate plans are for longer events). I'm an older runner and decidedly ectomorphic; for both reasons, I suppose there could be more potential benefit in the strength work for me than for a lot of others here.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Ken, your text makes it sound like your head is about to explode because you can't change the mindset of posters on the internet....let it go man. People will lift cause they want to. If they want to believe that there is a benefit to them, they are going to.

I think you need a break from this thread and stop exercising fingers and see if you can do like Lolo and achieve 33 clap pushups in 30 seconds...that will have more general fitness beneft than posting on ST. It takes no equipment as you can do it in your office.

I think you got it about right. I love the gym because the way I feel after a great workout. Sounds like Ken lost a prom date to a body builder :)

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

I wear a pink shirt with flowers on it the day before every race. Macca eats lasagna the night before every race. In either case, I think we both fall victim to some superstition. And I think we generally do it because we like it - me, my pink shirt and Macca his lasagna. I wish weight training would fall into the same category -"I do it because I like it. And I do it because it makes me feel good." The problem is when people try to develop pseudo-scientific rationales for these things that simply aren't there.

The internet, in general, seems to have caused a plague of "correlation being replaced by causation." if you want to say "I PRed at my last race, AND I did squats 2x a week all winter," that's fine with me. Just don't say "I PRed at my last race BECAUSE I did squats 2x a week all winter."

I find it funny that folks like you and I are called "anti-weight training." It reminds me of the term "pro-life," which at the risk of getting into a lavender room type debate, always seemed ridiculous to me. What's the opposite of pro-life? "Anti-life"? What an absurd concept. IN MY OPINION, pro-choice is a much more appropriate moniker, because the opposite is "anti-choice," which actually makes sense - folks who are "pro-life" wish to remove ability to choose. I am not debating the reasons why they wish to remove said choice; and I'll admit that *if you agree with their arguments,* then removing that choice makes sense. So "choice" vs. "no choice" makes sense to me. And I look at this debate in a similar, albeit substantially less serious, light.

You have people who are "pro-strength." But folks like you and I are not "anti-strength." We are simply saying that there is no substantive reason to do strength training to improve endurance performance. I'm not saying do not do weights. I don't really care what you do. But just do them knowing that there is essentially NO substantive research showing that it will help your ENDURANCE SPORT PERFORMANCE. That doesn't make me "anti" anything. I don't object to weights. I object to false claims about why people should do weights.

In other words, there are these people who say "strength training will make you faster." And they perceive people like you and I as saying the equivalent of "strength training will make you slower." That is NOT what you & I are saying (at the risk of speaking for you, which I apologize for). All we are saying is "It will NOT make you faster." There are other things that make people feel good that won't make you any faster - like wearing a pink shirt - but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do them. Just don't do them and try to come up with a reason for them that just isn't there.

I'm not trying to prove anything other than falsehood. No one is saying strength training is BAD for you (at least, not that I saw). They are just saying it's NOT GOOD for you (or, more specifically, endurance performance). All the folks who spend time hammering away on why strength training is so valuable should spend some time reading what the term "zealot" means. It'd time well spent. At least as well spent as another round of squats...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You know the rule: pics or it didn't happen.

(and thanks for the support! Apparently, "I object to false claims about why people should do weights" isn't sufficient to offer advice on slowtwitch)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I don't have a problem with people being dumbasses (well, that's not really true). But what I do have a problem with is when dumbasses try to convince the world that they are not dumbasses and try to get other, innocent folks to join them in being a dumbass.

You want to do situps in front of the TV? Be my guest. Just don't try to get other people to do them by telling them it will "likely" help their 5k when you have ZERO proof that is the case and when the actual evidence (not that there is a specific study exactly on 2x15min situps & 5k performance) shows the opposite - that something like 2x15min situps has NO EFFECT (which is different than a NEGATIVE effect) on something like 5k performance.

Ken actually cares that misinformation is not spread. What an amazing concept. If people would be content to be dumbasses in the privacy of their own home, then you wouldn't need people like Ken to shoot their dumbass theories full of holes. Of course, if L. Ron Hubbard has taught us anything, it's that getting other people to be dumbasses can be a good thing, at least for some folks...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

So you are saying the Deena Kastor is not gaining any benefit in getting faster from lifting?

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

I'm unable to get to the NYT article you linked.

jaretj

http://www.nytimes.com/...803BODIES_index.html

Try that one, its an article called Bodies of Work, a slide show of pics of the athletes and their various VO2 maxes, heart rates, calories consumptions, purdy cool really. If that doesnt work try searching google for NYT Bodies of Work, should be the first result.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

Isn't all endurance muscular?

That's not what *I* am saying. That is what the prevailing research on the topic says.

It's also worth noting that she did weight training before the Beijing Olympics, the same Olympics that she had to drop out of because of a crippling injury to her foot that left her in a hardshell boot for two months. Of course, I am sure the weight training proponents will have some convenient excuse for how/why weight training didn't magically prevent that injury. Oh wait, I know the reason - because weight training also hasn't been shown to prevent injury.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp